Leaving a LIKE really helps the channel!

I can't believe no one working on this proposal took a look at the Linux news of the past two weeks and said "Hey, maybe this isn't the right time to bring this up"

I'm actually fine with anonymous data being send to improve a distro. I have much more trust into fedora/red hat than i would with MS of course. But opt-in has to be an option for sure.

I'm not a Fedora user, but I tend towards the absolutist position on telemetry. I see it as a slippery slope: today it's "merely" de-personalized usage data, but what will it be tomorrow? Telemetry is what Windows does; I use Linux in large part to escape from that.

Users: NO! TELEMETRY BAD! Ask for feedback directly Dev: Asks for feedback Users: Go away, I don't have time for this

Linux recently is like watching a reality TV show with the characters having on/off relationships 😂 Great video as always, Matt Sir 💪

The really bad bit about this proposal didn't even make it into the video - whether you opt-in or opt-out, *the data is collected regardless.* The toggle only influences whether that data is sent or not. Meaning, anyone with access to the machine or the filesystem has access to that data. In these times of increased surveillance and state repression, the thought of more trackable data (and it is, by virtue of being on your system, associated with you) is scary to me.

Luckily, there are a lot of people in the forum fighting for avoiding this from happening or at least steering the telemetry to be as harmless as possible.

I think nowadays it is absolutely necessary for a big distro to know its device base. But not its user base. The truth is that information tends to accumulate and information is power.

Thanks for making a video on this topic. As a Fedora user, I can understand both sides of the discussion. I agree with the points that the proposal itself could have explained some things better, but in my opinion, there is also a right way to go about implementing any form of telemetry. I disagree with them making it an opt-out option for new Fedora users, especially because the details around what is being collected, along with how that data will be handled, at least for right now, are unclear. Me personally, I would have no issue sharing data with the Fedora team to help improve the distro as long as I had more information, but once again, that is just my take.

I think all distributions shouldn't even have telemetry built in. That's the main reason I got away from Microsoft's Spyware OS. For those who wish to opt in, it should be available as a separate application to download and install.

With Debian I always opt in because I trust them. On the privacy thing sometimes I wonder if it matters, it's more about equality, I don't mind losing my privacy as long as all the leaders also lose their privacy or the people tracking my shit lose their privacy and I know who they are and what they are doing with my data.

Great video as always Matt. Keep it up buddy.

“And that’s how the kernel crumbles!”

Regardless if is a good idea or not. Is the worst possible moment to talk about telemetry for Fedora when so many people are against Red Hat.

Well, let's say I own a new house and i want to move in but the company that built the house has installed sensors in each one of the rooms, doors, windows, electrical switches etc of my house, and wants to collect telemetry from these sensors, in order to understand how me and my family spend our time inside it and how we interact with the house and it's appliances. Their reasoning is that this way will identify how everything is utilized and will apply this knowledge to their next projects, streamlining their work, eliminating unnecessary switches, doors, windows and even spaces making homes less costly while being more efficient and smart and also offer cheap upgrade paths for existing home owners like me. Why on earth should anyone accept this kind of intrusion inside their own homes? Even if i kind of trust the builders and even if I'm tempted by the 'benefits' there is no guaranties that this thing will not backfire in the future. There is a fine line here that no one should be even tempted to cross. Not us and most of all not the builders. This is how i see this drama with Fedora. The telemetry proposal should have been rejected the moment it came to be. I understand the so called benefits but in this time and age our privacy is of utmost importance and cancels any kind of benefits stemming from telemetry schemes. It' a matter of principle!

Dammit. And spoke so highly of Nobara. I think I might have to find an alternative distro to replace it. 😔

The problem isn't the act in itself, the problem it is the mindset behind the act. Redhat are trying the waters to see what they can get away with, it starts with telemetry and then just go down hill from there. I used to recommend Fedora but from now on it's dead for me.

It’s “IBM Red Hat”, “IBM CentOS”, and “IBM Fedora” now folks. Time to jump ship!

It's the fact that they were making it "opt-out" that bugs me

Opt-in or opt-out, I won't be bothered by it as long at there's a slider to turn of data collection and sending. While I understand that newer users or less technically inclined individuals might not think of turning that option off, I think it's a matter of digital hygiene. We have to teach people to look for these settings and turn them off if they don't want their data to be collected and sent. Sure, it would have been a lot easier if Fedora didn't want to integrate these functions in the first place, but we have to understand that automation also helps them build a better distro for us. I used Windows for many years and in that OS...turning data collection and sending is NOT an option. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't mind as long as Fedora stops here with data collection. We need to make sure that if we're okay with this here and now, they won't try to take another step in the future...and then another one, and another one. The distro may be community-driven, but considering what's happening with Red Hat, I think we should start holding our ground more and more in the future. I love Fedora...been using it for a long time and I really don't want to see it corrupted to the point where it might look like Windows. Not even to a small degree. Anyway, thanks for the content! I'm new here, but I already love the channel!

ALWAYS it starts with a benign story, and ALWAYS becomes forced surveillance.

The correct way is to do it is opt-in, as Debian does it. The only Linux distro that respects its users.

That's sad.. I always thought I would probably move to fedora if I didn't want to maintain a rolling release anymore. Red hat really does pull some strings..

if you want a wall garden, you have to deal with the gardener

I think some telemetry is okay, as long as it is sparse. So instead of collecting data about all the apps I am using, do it only once a week at a random time. It will still give you the same averages to work with, but not enough to give up what I am doing all the time. Better still, use differential privacy, which is a cryptographic technique, to collect data without preserving any identifiable information.

I don't have a problem with opt-out, if it's presented to user in a way that is hard to miss and easy to change. It's the "hidden" opt-outs that make me uninstall the whole thingie.

I agree wholeheartedly, and I am currently giving fedora a spin. I see an opt in approach the best of both worlds

Why dont distro's have a website were people can go and fill out a questionnaire or a poll anonymously. Hell I bet they would get lots of people willing to spend a couple of minutes filling out what they want to know. Just do it the the open source way and let people decide what info they want to provide.

Since this proposal is just that a proposal (suggestion) if telemetry should be included (not what telemetry to include) my answer is No, not spyware. What to include will go through another similar discussion and those too will have to be approved in the open by fesco. Should it be opt-out of by default, No. Present a option after install that forces the user to make a active choice, either yes or no and until a choice is made they cant proceed with setup. If Yes is chosen then the eos pkg should be downloaded and installed, if the users selects No, then nothing will be downloaded/installed on the system. And this suggestions is _only_ for Workstation, I.e Gnome. Other DE:s that want this have to include it. KDE already has telemetry built-in but obviously disabled by default.

hey , what video editing app you are using

now arch and debian is my friends

Christ running Linux as a desktop is a full time job.

Lol. It seems like Red Hat just said, 'Fuck it. I'm gonna be evil now.' They're ripping band-aids off left and right. I understand the argument and value of the data. No one ever disputes the value of the data, if it wasn't valuable, companies and governments wouldn't collect it. Do you know how you improve some of this stuff without collecting user data? You bring on board competent and good UX engineers, and then give them the support they need to be successful.

I'd never use a corporate OS, whether it be Windows, Mac, Fedora, Ubuntu, or Manjaro. Choosing a Linux distribution just comes down to a coin toss: Heads - Arch, Tails - Debian.

21:12 #RambleOn is your signature, man. That’s way better than a catch phrase

What none of these corporations can figure out is that it is the nerds, the enthusiasts, that are the bellwether of adoption. Sure, it may take a few quarters or years for it to make a difference to the bottom line, but it will have an effect. When someone wants to make a desicion on a new tech, a big investment, an upgrade, the nerds will weight in. Even if they individually don't carry a lot of weight, it all builds up over time.

I, like a lot of other users in the community, came over to Linux from Windows to escape the invasive data collection. No one, me included, likes to see what they searched on Ebay displayed in ads while they visit KZfaq. So I can understand and sympathize with the concerns of users when a Red Hat employee makes a proposal in Fedora about collecting data (I'm waiting for someone to call that RH person a dirty IBM exec, they REALLY love that). But at the same time, I can understand why *insert a company behind a Linux distro here* would want to collect data, or rather the altruistic motive, and that's to provide a better product. A better products creates loyalty, and that loyalty will create more users because of the word of mouth about the better product. However, someone will always question just exactly how invasive a company will be if the user will lets them. So I would suggest to Fedora that there should be a opt in/opt out option for users to choose if they want Fedora to collect telemetry or not, but at the same time I suggest for the community to be more active in giving Fedora feedback on how the software is working or if there's bugs that need to be addressed. Anyways, that's my 2 bytes of opinion.

I uninstalled fedora and switched to Debian after the RHEL thing just on principal. Fedora was also getting buggy for me after the most recent update and I was putting off trouble shooting it. And then with the RHEL news I was just like eh nah. Good to hear I made the right decision. I just dont like the seedy gross feeling I'm getting from the folks at Red Hat.

Opt out telemetry is simply immoral, nobody should ever be collecting your data without informed consent. Now, I would be OK with an "opt-out of opt-in telemetry prompts" system, or in other words, if by default they would ask you if you want to send data whenever you do something they want telemetry on, but only if they explain exactly what is being sent.

What they propose to do and what they do are 2 very different things. For example, They might propose metric 1, but they will do metric 2 without proposing to do metric 2.

Telemetric data can be really useful, people just focus on the THEY GUNNA SELL 'OR DATA! A simple example: Is the KDE spin growing? Yes? Enough to change workstation from GNOME? They solve a recent issue that is still open.

Are there Fedora alternatives with package managers that are similar to dnf in terms of being up to date without being super bleeding edge? Not the biggest fan of rolling relases but if i have no other option ill move to Arch

If it were only telemetry, that would be ok. But now Fedora users are becoming beta tester for RHEL and will not get it source code back. Horrible timing to bring such subject up. I ditched Fedora and not coming back.

Red Hat really firing on all cylinders these days

for certain vm (not my main machine) I am willing to opt in and have that workflow grant telemetry to a project I like. For me this is a like and subscribe for software I use on that distro.

Just installed Fedora , as a daily driver And now you're with this video 😢

I alt Fedora but am wondering with the recent chatter if I should purge it.

Zero telemetry in Linux! Why else switch away from Windows or Mac.

Goodbye Fedora. Hello Debian. (w/ Nix package manager)

I've never been under the impression that Linux is for privacy. You can make your install about privacy, but I don't remember hearing it was inherent

20:03 "and that's the rest of the story"

Most likely a fedora fork will arise with the telemetry components removed

Windows’ increasingly invasiveness is why I switched to Linux. I have no interest in keeping tabs on how much spying my distro does to determine if it’s “acceptable.”

There will be someone creating a package to remove or disable those telemetry bits or blacklist the target IP

As long as it is not possible for the data to lead to finger printing then I think people are getting wound up over nothing.

Devs need data inorder to improve their product. But linux users want privacy.

On a semi-related note, why do people run fedora? What does it bring that debian and arch etc doesn't? I keep hearing so much about it, but I don't know anything about it.

idk man i wont swich anytime soon just hoping it wont effect perfomance and like not very harmfull

give it a year or so and that little button will mysteriously turn on, boom, everyone's data is now collected.

Writers often look for beta readers to give feedback on a writing project. That model sounds good for distros. But with what these distros are doing, the only acceptable method is to make participation something that the user has to seek out to turn on. Collection should never be automatic. And if a company is doing it, those who opt in should be paid.

They are direct friends with Red Hat, i left their distro as soon as Red Hat had its bad moment with Open Source

lmao @ that outro. good stuff. lol. "stay safe, stay happy, stay linux". lol. XD XD XD XD just the levity needed after the more bad news that abusers-via-software are doing as corporate does

Has to be OptIN. Looks like thay want to get permission then they will run with it and do what ever. Best to just not give that permission it always to hard for them to resist doing what they want. Slppery sloap and just because one a few use a feature does not mean it is not important!

You keep us on staying Linux B).

Yeah they just need to make it to where people can opt out and if people want to make a personal sacrifice they can. All they need to do is have surveys that people take to give their thoughts for improvements. And just keep a feedback open. And if they dont want to do it that way than it is probably because they are global elitest and just want to do away with the personal privacy freedoms that we are suppose to have in America. If we did some digging we might find that these people have ties that really arent that great.

I don't understand this most people moan about privacy on it and then open a Google account or they have an Android phone

Does this impact Fedora derivatives or just Fedora? Big fan of Nobara...

Use community based distro, get rid of corporate garbage

as long as there is an option to disable, it's ok for me. The "community" is becoming more and more aggressive...

IBM is screwing everything lately!

time to switch back to Arch btw

As long as you can turn it off, I don't see what the problem is.

Remember what we said people, remember about Red Hat. It's no coincidence. I would chose being wrong though sighh 😢

1-st! Ready to help devs, but unhappy about them not willing to consider alternatives according to threads.

Yes, it is automatically bad thing, there's no refute here.

About 40% of the contribution are redhatters 60% are normal none paid fedora community. This issue has been raised be for and shot down by the community

If fedora has telemetry they have no idea who you actualy are because they don't care. Only telemetry they get is about your computer usage but it's primarily hradware you use and apps you use but nothing that can identify you. You can always opt out i think. Debian has telemetry too but also no anything that will identify you. Anonymous usage telemetry is not bad escpecially if you have choice to opt out any time.

i just quit fedora, now its not bad, but i know they will destroy it sooner or later just as they did with centos or canon with ubuntu

redhat has already destroyed any trust we had in them. minecraft plugins often have some simple stats reported back for developers and server admins to see. the data doesn't go to some big corporation, the code is clear and short, send these few basic stats and that is all. redhat fucking with our servers and desktops, they are already on the shit list, ABSOLUTELY NO.

The problem is once they get you over the line, what else will they implemente? It never stops there. Time to move distro.

If htey do it like kde plasma i have no qualms about it

"We're not interested in opt-in metrics". WTF?! I almost always select checkbox that says "we want to collect some data". I sincerely care not much about my personal data and believe that I can help to make product better by sharing it. And you saying that you are not interested in my data? I feel deeply frustrated and angry and confused. Don't know what to do with all this.

Im downloading all source code here in house since last week, i used all my internet franchise, so i have to wait till next month to download the rest, i want help to fork it, i dont know how im going to do it, im just downloading the source code. but i have to wait. The objective is to be totally independent of Red Hat and become a house for fedora developers who are insatisfied with red hat and if somehow in the future becomes upstream for projects like alma linux. Is this dreaming too much, do you guys think im exaggerating and think i did wasted work doing this?

I think it's fine if It would improve the user experience and it's limited to system information.

Is Fedora even capable of collecting data? Fedora is constantly complaining of a problem occurring (according to Gnome notifications), and when I try to send a bug report it fails. 🙄

The way they're trying to do it without all the transparency is definitely going to make a lot of people leave Fedora behind. I think telemetry is useful but not the way Redhat is trying to do it.

Also, One I the main reasons I personally use Linux is because of how intrusive tech companies like MS have become collecting data. I've thought about it a long time ago, I'm not using a Linux distro that constantly phones home.

I just cant do Red Hat products anymore. I convinced our CTO to rip Red Hat out of our environment at work. We are replacing RHEL with Debian. Our support contract is quite large and we are going to save a ton of money. I included the new info on Red Hat turning its back on opensource. This was the defining argument and our CTO was perplexed that Red Hat would go closed source.

Hopefully Nobara disables it

Opt in telemetry is stupid does Kde get much telemetry data from kde Plasma

None of what they say or not say is a mistake. It's exactly what they wanted to say in exactly the way they want it said.

I'm curious how many of the people crying foul over this will also happily use their Android or iPhone, log into a Google or Facebook or Instagram or Twitter or you-name-it social media account, and never think twice about all the data being collected and sold to the highest bidder. There are far worse bad actors collecting our data than any Linux distro, and they have no option to opt out.

Users don't seem to mind when Valve collects who knows how much info from their computers.

I'll susbcribe to you Odysee.

Fedora is dead to me as I don't trust them with data.

How is optional anonymous telemetry "not FOSS friendly"? Is the telemetry mechanism closed-source? Does the presence of the telemetry mechanism affect the user's ability to view, modify, or distribute the source code? If the answer to both is "no," then what does "FOSS" even _mean_ in this context? Also, if we follow this logic, then Arch and Gentoo are the only "FOSS friendly" options because literally every other distro installs and enables things without asking the user at every step. I mean, Firefox has telemetry, and it comes pre-installed on everything.

I don't mind sharing some data

Too bad Fedora has chosen the dark side. It was a nice distro. Luckily there are still enough other distros and projects in the Linux world :)

Let's not be naive here. Looking at both sides I see a great community Linux distro and people like me on the one side, and I see IBM on the other side. The same company, that screwed up CentOS and now try to do their s...ty stuff to the community side of the things. From that perspective in my eyes it looks like a drug dealer arrives to sell drugs on a street, where there was no dealer before. Therefore I'm 100% opposed to that. No telemetry. Put your telemetries in your Red Hat, your CentOS and your a.... but not in our communities. Period.