Jaime's return to Cersei isn't the problem, it's the Brienne romance and the fact he said he didn't care for the innocent that flies in the face of the arc. Despite the fact he loved her he should have been going back to try and convince her to surrender. He shouldn't need Tyrion to change his mind. The core conflict should have been trying to reconcile his newfound goodness with his love for the cruel Cersei, not throwing it away for convenience's sake.

Your point about relapse is persuasive - the show just didn't pace this out well enough for it to land in a way that felt right. Yes it makes sense for Jaime's story to end in this way, but the execution of the storytelling this season has been far too rushed to do it justice. The show is not consistent with regard to redemption arcs, having given Theon the full treatment. But it is fair to say that both Jaime and Theon's fates were in keeping with who they were at heart.

Season 3 Jaime: "If your precious Renly had ordered you to kill your own father and stand by as thousands of men women and children burn alive would you have done it? Would you have kept your oath then?" Season 8 Jaime: "To be honest I never really cared much for them innocent or otherwise" I have no idea how someone can defend such shitty writing. Jaime was done with cersei after she refused to help fight the whitewalkers. In the last scene with him in season 7 he got rid of his shiny lannister armor and covered up his golden hand symbolically showing that he was done with his past life. In season 8 he apologizes to bran, agrees to serve under brienne, knights brienne and they save each other during the long night. Then all of a sudden he sleeps with her once and then heads south because he apparently needs cersei? Bullshit. Don't give me that bullshit about it being realistic. Game of thrones stopped being realistic in season 7 with the beyond the wall episode. D & D don't think in terms of fictional characters. Watch the videos from the channel the dragon demands to see how they only care about writing their actors into situations where they can nonverbally emote. You are putting more thought into this than the writers did and it's pointless

Brienne dying during the battle of winter fell would fix everything. Jaime in a moment of weakness leaves winterfell and goes to save cersi cause she is all he has.

Jaime's character arc isn't a redemption story, it is a tragedy. He is fully a tragic hero by the end of The Bells.

You are making a very good point, and Jaime's journey and death should have been handled the way you describe it. Unfortunately, I have the feeling that you are doing more here for Jaime than the show in itself. The last two episodes were very radical about the way he is described (him saying he is hateful, then saying he doesn't care about innocent lives: those are very violent statements, which contradict frontally with his evolution), and if their intentions were as you described them, they should have been shown more properly, with deeper nuances. I guess it was due to lack of time, as for the rest of the TV show, but I think this is the reason why a lot of people have felt bitter about this ending for him: it was written with no subtilities or what so ever, so we couldn't completely comprehend this turn of events. We should not have to guess what the writers' intentions were, they had to show them to us and they made poor screenplay choices which have blurred the comprehension of his finale action: when Bronn threatens him, he doesn't seem to care about the fact that Cersei wants to kill him; during his stay in Winterfell he first didn't mention or wonder once about Cersei's fate, even when Daenerys is going to King's Landing to kill Cersei, while we have seen in the previous season that the latter obviously doesn't stand a chance against her; his first choices is actually to stay in the North with Brienne as if he was too stupid to realize from the beginning that it is not going to end very well for his sister; or Tyrion, who one day seems happy about his brother letting Cersei go in profit for a healthier relationship, encourages him the next day to escape with this same toxic person to spend his life with her... Those are stupid writing and script mistakes, which annihilates the general coherence of the scenario, and in the end, it did not provide a clear understanding of this ending. I would have loved to see the nuances you bring in this video actually on screen.

Most of this seasons problems do not seem to lie in the "what" but in the "how". Jamie going back and dying by Cerceis side isn't the problem. The problem is that Jamie's final fight was cut out to be replaced with whatever that whole Euron scene was. What I would have liked to see from the show is to lay out Jamies thoughts more on how he came to return to Cercei. Him battling with the question over whether he loves her more than he hates all the circumstances surrounding this love, or not. He never figures out whether he wants to be with her or not. Instead, the show just had him arrive by her side to immediately have them embrace each other and forget about all the tensions that were left from the past few weeks. We jump to the conclusion of a conflict that was left out. A show that used to be about the development of characters (whether in one direction or the other) turned into a show that's just about quickly ticking off the marks on a list.

While I see the points being made here, this video serves as a better argument for seeing more failed/limited redemption arcs in media in general and a lot less as an argument for its good execution within the context of the show. I don't have an issue with pursuing this idea for Jaime's character, but the writing didn't do it in a way that actually works or effectively communicates that idea. If there's anyone who's a good example of a limited redemption arc in the show, it's Sandor Cleagane.

I can understand this perspective. I think it should have been fleshed out more to show that Jaime could never let go of Cersei, sadly the show has rushed through everything

but all those moments of relapse you mention (besides Theon) aren't characters making decisions, they are writers forcing characters to be in the right place at the right time. Arya's list for example, devised as a way of avenging the people who wronged her family because she thought she'd never see them again. She didn't undergo a Bran-like transformation where she no longer has emotions. Completing the list would not mean more to her than being with and fighting alongside her family. And with old Jimmy, the moment Cersei threatens to have him killed as an attempt to make him stay should be the minute that relationship ends. He obviously won't stop loving her, but he wouldn't go back for her and die for her either after that, and her betrayal of the North. If those actions didn't bother him, he never would have abandoned her and gone to Winterfell. I mean he was risking life to even try and get through the gates.

8:23 'Real people dont have redemption arcs and don’t change in linear ways. Relapse is part of human nature, not just for drug addicts, but for everyone consumed with a goal, behavior or relationship.' Man, that was beautiful. Such an overlooked point of GoT

Well done. Jaime's is not as much a character arc as it is a character graph. And I don't think leaving Brienne means that he didn't redeem himself. He did. He kept his oaths, he fought for the living alongside his enemies, he allowed himself to feel for another that isn't his mirror reflection. But he could not stand by while the woman he always loved was massacred. He didn't kill Cersei. He didn't help Cersei in her war. He went to her side to save her. It's negative to us because we care for Brienne, but it's not out of malevolence. It's out of facing who he really is, as much of the series is about. Dany believes she's a benevolent ruler. Jon believes he's not worthy of the throne. Brienne believes she's not a knight. Cersei believes she's smarter than everyone. Sansa believed she was stupid. And Jaime believed he was a better man. In the end, they were all right, until they were wrong. One of the themes of the story is are we who we think we are. What do we see in the mirror and how accurate is that image?

I had conflicting feelings about Jamie's end, but I think you swayed me. I think part of the reason, aside from the general sloppiness of season 8, that people are so frustrated with Jamie's end is because it is so realistic. We all like to think we can shake the worst parts of ourselves, but a lot of us can't. Jamie couldn't and I think that makes him all the more tragic and relatable. "We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy."

It's a very dangerous thing to lump GRRM character development with D&D's, there is a very sharp edge between both periods in how characters developed, how the seeds have been carefully planted within their arcs, and how their choices would doom them. In Jaime's case, D&D planted the seeds of change and him hating Cersei and her pushing him to the side, even sending Bronn after him to kill him if he manages to get out alive, the foreshadowing was building a trajectory of hatred, and yet they failed to build that shift up, it needed to simmer to be earned, like GRRM does. Jaime's "redemption" was not meant to have him do a 180 degree, and that's not why everyone is pissed, it's the swift change of lanes when it comes to characters, just like Danny's change upon hearing the bells, despite me knowing for a fact that she will go mad queen since season 6, yet her abrupt unmotivated change is why this is bad writing, same for Jaime, same for everything that has been taking place since season 5.

If he truly loved Cersei.. There wouldn't have been a Sex Scene with Brienne. I mean come on Man. He's never been around with any other woman but Cersei. I would have accepted this explanation if Brienne and Jaime didn't make love.

Sometimes I feel like Jaime and Theon had a similar “redemption” story. Both of them try to fit into the expectations of their loved ones or society in general, and “fail” simply because they are denying who they truly are. Whether if it’s a good man, a honourable man, a coward or a warrior, at the end, at least on the show, it seems like the moment they truly accept who they are is the moment they find their peace, because they are not fighting with the biggest foes of their lives anymore. Themselves.

Jaime's 'redemption' arc is quite similar to Bojack Horseman's. Every time you think either one of them makes progress, they revert back to their bad habits,mostly because they don't want to change, because what it they change and still realise they are still bad underneath it all. Bojackin season 1 asks his friend whether he is a good person. He desperately begs her to tell him he's a good person. She doesn't. And through out the show, no matter how many good things he does, you get the feeling that he's too far gone to truly change. I get that with Jaime. He doesn't believe in his own redeption - doesn't feel like he deserves it. So he reverts back to bad habits. It's frustrating and hateful and completely and unflinchingly human.

I love your take on this. For me the most 100% relatable moment of the ENTIRE show was Jaime's return to Cersei. It's something any addict should be able to relate to very much.

Jaime's redemption doesn't come in the usual way we expect it. He pushed Bran to his destiny. He went from Kingslayer to unwitting Kingmaker. A Lannister always pays his debts.

I get going back for cercei but saying he didn't care for the people of kings landing was too much

I really appreciate your thoughtful offerings on the last season of GOT. You prioritize insight over hysteria unlike many other commentators.

I felt that, in part, Jaime's arc with Brienne was to show that he had a choice. He had the option of a happier life, a healthier relationship. Yet when Cersei was in danger, he chose not to take it. He chose to go back to her, to die with her, because he loves her above all else. Brienne was the thing he could never really have, the choice he couldn't quite make. It is a tragedy, in many ways, but it felt right to me for his character. It's not an especially hopeful ending, but it feels very real and poignant.

Him killing Cersei would have been the exact kind of mercy kill you described, as in ending someone's suffering out of love. Would have been completely in tone imo.

Agree with you 100%. I hate redemption arcs, most of the time they are not convincing and believable, cause in real life people don't do 180 degree turns. I don't think that throughout seasons Jaime changed for the better, it's just we as an audience got a better insight into this very complex, morally grey character, and discovered some of his noble traits, and we started to appreciate him a little more. He didn't change, but our perception and attitude towards a character that once we thought was pure evil. But the redemption arc of Theon was good and believable though. He made a mistake, soon he regretted it, suffered because of it and tried hard to redeem himself

I believe Jamie should have been on the road to redemption and relapsed back but not by simply going back to Cersei. I think he should have been with Brienne before the Battle of Winterfell, not after. This sparks love between the two but during the Battle, Brienne saves Jamie from the Wights but dies as a result. Jamie is crushed by this as he feels guilty for her death, thinking that if he simply stayed with Cersei, she could have survived. But also sadness as his new life, his redemption to make up for his past is now gone, ripped away from him before it began for what he believes to be his failure. He then returns to Cersei but not for love, because he sees her as horrible and spiteful but believes he is no better and someone like Cersei is all he deserves.

You're the only voice of reason on KZfaq right now regarding GoT. Thank you for being here!

i feel bad for him. cersei manipulated him all his life, didn’t hesitate to send someone to kill him off, she was never as loyal to him as he was to her. i feel bad for brienne too. she’s so loyal and her love runs deep, and put down her walls for him, only for him to make a mockery out of that and go back to the woman that he knows “is hateful”. i’m disappointed but not surprised

Thank you so much! I've been having a hard time explaining to my friends why I actually adore Jaime's return to Cersei. Part of George RR Martin's writing in GoT is turning the common fantasy tropes on their heads. If this was LoTR, Jaime would return to kill Cersei and be fully redeemed, but this is GoT, this is more realistic. Jaime always loved Cersei despite knowing what a monster she was, and I really love that.

I'm on a GoT relapse, it seems. I'm happy I came across your video, because I think people seem to get overly obsessed with "full" redemption arcs and what is logical, but people don't always work according to logic. It takes a lot to change a person and sometimes you constantly have to remind yourself about who you really are, and even then it can go south. I understand that "full" redemption stories can uplift people and show them some light at the end of the tunnel but it's not always coming to such an end. A man can break even after surviving so much, and I can see that in a deep despair or shock the things that are the most deeply ingrained into them are coming to the surface in such a way. I agree that S8 was terribly written, but that image, Cersei and Jaime dying curled up together, just as they came to the world, really hit home for me.

The interesting take on Jaime arc is Brienne of Tarth. What an interesting ending for Brienne of Tarth. She is knighted after a night of drinking. She fights in the battle of plot armor. She has a one night stand with Jaime. It is publicly announced Jaime is staying in Winterfell. Jaime then abandons Brienne leaving her crying in Winterfell.

Jaime's arc is like Christopher Moltisanti's, an addict who just couldnt get over his addiction

You might be right, but its really sad because the thing I loved most about this show was that it showed how we are all on a journey, that we all can and will change, for better or worse depending on what we face, and the choices we make.

Does what happen in the books have any bearing on this at all? Such as when Jaime totally reject Cersei's request for being her champion and realizes that she's the biggest toxic influence on his life?

I've watched 3 of your videos straight and they are brilliant.

The conflict of love Vs duty - well this aged well after the last episode

He ringed the bells, it wasn't easy and he pretty much killed himself for that. He definitely redeemed himself but Danny ignored all that. First time he saved people by sacrificing honour and kill his king and this time he kills himself but keeps honour.

For people complaining that the line about Jamie not caring about people even though he protected them from the mad king. Are missing that’s how Jamie has talked since season 1 it’s his kingslayer persona he acts like he doesn’t care about the masses or what they think of him. The reason the bath scene is so great is cause it’s the first time we learn he is not an evil man. He was trying to default back into that mind set again when he chose to go back to cerci.

I didn't mind him going back to Kings Landing last week. And Jaime reuniting with Cersei was actually high point in this episode. It was indeed narratively consistent and true to character, unlike other events...

It's not about Cersei, it's about inconsistency. Why would he even go to North if it was not for the lamest fan service in tv history? Lengths people go to defend lazy writing are very impressive.

Many people have been relentlessly defending Jaime's ending by saying that it's 'realistic,' and people should accept it because Game of Thrones is 'realistic,' in that the good guys don't always win, live, or make good decisions. But in it's realism, at least up until Season 7 or 8, it all made sense for their character motivations and had proper build up. The quintessential example of course is the Red Wedding. What made it such a great scene was that you didn't necessarily see it coming, but after you saw it and the shock wore off, it made perfect sense with everything that had happened previously in the season. With the Jaime ending, it's the exact opposite. Jaime's dialogue and decision making flies in the face of everything we've come to know about Jaime in the past 5 seasons. Sure, we can assume that deep down Jaime still cares for Cersei on some level, but that's all we're able to do. In season 8, Jaime's entire time in Winterfell is spent focused on the Brienne plotline. There is no indication of any sort of internal struggle about how he severed ties with Cersei. He decides in the course of ONE scene, a scene in bed with Brienne no less, that he wants to go back to Cersei. There's no struggle, no conflict, he just makes a complete 180 in one scene. Do people sometimes act like this in real life? Sure. Is it terrible writing? Absolutely. Some people would be mad no matter what if Jaime ended up with Cersei again. But I think the majority of people are mad because they don't see the Jaime Lannister as portrayed up until Season 8 Episode 4 suddenly making up his mind in the course of one scene that he likes Cersei better. It's possible to see this as realistic for Jaime, but we are given absolutely no reason or clues in the show leading up to the decision. There is no conflict around it, and thus it gives no real payoff to the audience. It's just terrible writing.

I couldnt really argue anything until you mentioned the stannis example. How is that a "relapse"? It's not, Its just a total... Laspe? Basically her acts completely out of character and wholy inconsistent and hypocritical to the narrative. "oh but it's because of the situation he's in" Well, aside from D+D completely Rewriting his northern campaign for convenience of wrapping up a season with a shock battle rather than how an actual war of this kind would have gone on.. Stannis has been in some absolutely dogshit situations countless times. Like how he held that city while he and his army starved. Do you think he would have chopped up his daughter and eaten her then? No. He is the kind of guy who would rather sacrifice himself for his seed to survive. Liniage is extremely important to him. Arya as an example makes little to no sense either. She was literally browbeating Jon about keeping together and being a family the scene before. It's completely abrupt and jarring, maybe if we actually had a reaction scene to her finding out the whole R+L=j thing we'd have more context but I guess writing compotent interesting dialogue is haaaaaard. It's been all too common for D+D to write situations and use the actors silent brooding emotes as a crutch rather than dialogue dripping with meaning and subtext.

Just rewatched your analysis of Jaime after seeing it a year ago. Still truly an excellent well made video essay of a complex character!

This is why I love Martin's storytelling. He's created realistic characters within a fantastic fantasy. As much as we really think we want to see redemption, it's much more challenging and exciting to see the flawed characters betray our wishes. Thanks for such a great video!

Brienne represents a brighter, better, noble future, a second chance. Something he never envisioned or knew. Cersei represents the past. The person he was, maybe he thought that he did not deserve Brienne but deserved the same fate as Cersei. Maybe he feels responsible in making Cersei what she is. Look at Tyrion after all the things Cersei has done or said he still had empathy for her. Because he felt that he aided in molding the bitch that she has become. To be the only female left in the family after the death of their mother must have been lonely. Both Jaime and Tyrion had understood that. That is why they both resigned to accepting that their fate may be death. Because they feel that they deserved it.

You have great videos. Keep up the good work

Thank you very very much for this video! Most people missed this fundamental fact about Jamies arc.

So much this! Thank you

I never had an issue with Jaime representing the Lannisters. It never tarnished his redemption in my eyes. I know it did for some. But I saw it as something he must do, as a member of the family and he representing his side, his house. Which is like any other houses. If anything I was impressed by how he took Riverrun without bloodshed. He was like a polished "better" version of Tywin or anybody else that would have been in this position. Furthermore, if you look on paper, post blowing the Sept of Balor, Cersei did not turn tyranical, the citizen were not tortured, she didn't suddenly cut off the food, it was a relalively calm rule at King's Landing. So there was no Mad Queen. And Dany and her forces were the invaders. So Jaime had to protect the realm. In my opinion that was the flaw of the series entering into Season 7: King's Landing should have been in chaos after what Cersei had done. Citizen revolting. Then she becomes tyranical and Mad Queen trying to maintain order, mass executions, etc....People are asking for a savior, hence comes Dany. This is what people wants. Then Dany shows up, takes the war to Cersei. Cersei and the Lannisters prove to be a formidable foe at King's Landing(unlike on the show). And then people reject all the destruction and stop seeing Dany as savior and so.....Dany has less sympathy for them, goes too far, start burning...and burning and never stops. Cersei tries to ignite the wildfire to stop her but Jaime tries to stop her. He fights Euron and manage to kill him. But he is hurt in the process and he fights with Cersei to stop her and he kills her, stopping the further massacre.

In my eyes, the only real crime that Jaime Lannister was guilty of, was the crippling of Bran Stark. I considered the killing of Aerys Targaryen to be an act of tyrannicide rather than murder, which in my mind is ethically different, due to both the motivation of the act, and its' consequences. As a member of the Kingsguard, Jaime held a position analogous to the Roman praetorians; and there were times in Roman history when tyrannicide was their duty. It was not done openly or formally of course, but when the office of Emperor occasionally produced a Nero or Caligula, it became necessary for them to be assassinated in order to prevent continued collective suffering and ruin. The primary risk or disadvantage of monarchy was the fact that, without formal checks or balances on their power, a psychopath in the office could cause tremendous harm. As a result, if Jaime needed redemption or punishment for anything, it was again, his act towards Bran. I consider the rule of the Targaryens to be based almost exclusively on their capacity to employ lethal force against anyone who resists, and therefore illegitimate. A monarch can, and historically frequently has, performed legitimate functions. Those functions primarily consist of the dispensation of justice, and the distribution of food and resources, as symbolised by the Egyptian crook and flail. Aerys exclusively wielded the flail; to the extent that anyone in his government used the crook, it was primarily Tywin Lannister, who served as his hand. In terms of real function, therefore, I would have been more likely to view Tywin as a legitimate ruler. Danaerys occasionally sat at court and heard petitions in Mereen, which I approved of; and it was while observing her doing that, that I began to believe that she might be a better ruler than her father. However, her treatment of Randyll Tarley in particular was grossly unjust. I believe that a monarch who is otherwise behaving legitimately, has the right to punish active treason; but a mere refusal to initially offer fealty to a foreign monarch who is unknown to the person in question, should not be considered treason. Fealty, like any other form of respect, should be earned.

THANK YOU!! Is Jamie really evil for not killing his sister...is Luke evil for not killing Vader?

Imo if Jaimie did have a redemption arc, then that arc was completed when he joined his enemies to fight for life. He risked his life for them. If he wants to die with the person he loves, who happens to be the Mother of his unborn child then let him.

I really loved this analysis. However, there are few things that I feel aren't addressed by the theory that Jamie couldn't help going back to Cersei because it was true love and he "didn't get to choose" that he loved her. The argument that he can't help loving Cersei because she was his only constant as a child makes sense to me, but the claim that his relationship with Cersei is one of the true love stories in Game of Thrones doesn't sit well with me. (I've heard this claim elsewhere.) Because as far as I was concerned, the real love story was between him and Brienne. In interviews describing Jamie's feeling towards Brienne, Coster-Waldau called them soulmates and stated that when Jamie let Brienne keep oathkeeper at the seige of Riverrun, he was declaring that his heart was hers and that she would always have it. This brings up the point that love does not simply reside in the realm of emotion or extreme sexual desire/obsession; it is built and strengthened through consistent practice and action. It's a verb, an action, and loving a person is as much a practice as a feeling. Perhaps Jamie "loved" Cersei, but it was clear to me that she did not love him in the same way. He acted, demonstrated his love, and she took and corrupted. That, at best, is a tale of a parasitical relationship or a tale of unrequited love where the object of your love is, as Lady Olenna observed, "a disease." So when D and D characterize his feelings towards Cersei as an addiction... I guess. Whatever. Makes sense. However, what I loved about Brienne and Jamie's relationship was that it was based on deeply knowing each other after seeing each other in action and trusting each other with their vulnerability and their truth, it was a series of actions based around the protecting and defending each other, trusting and believing and inspiring and challenging each other to be their best selves and to aspire for more. Above all, it was based on respect. Because there is no real love if you don't have respect. When they slept together, I will admit, I was one of the shippers who rejoiced because it felt earned and it felt right. It was the way he left her that left a bad taste in my mouth because then it truly did feel like fan service. And it ruined his arc for me. Going along with your argument that Jamie's defining characteristic is one of love, that action toward Brienne was so cruel and disrespectful. Not just the leaving of her, but the emotional whip lash he caused by first instigating a sexual and romantic relationship and then abandoning her. That is pure and simply, betrayal. What are we supposed to believe? That he didn't know that someone like Brienne wouldn't just sleep with anyone? That he didn't know enough of her values and sense of honor to know that sleeping with him wasn't just because she had an itch she was trying to scratch? That he would respect her enough to knight her but not enough to not use her sexually and emotionally abuse her? The writers have spent years making us believe that he loved and admired Brienne. And if we go by your theory, that he is driven by his love, then he would at least be conflicted about hurting Brienne because he loved her too. At least that is what we were led to believe. If Jamie is someone who is loyal to those he loves, we should have seen him be extremely conflicted and upset about hurting and losing Brienne. My God, she defended his honor in front of a queen who wanted him burned alive and they fought the army of the dead back to back! Him using her sexually and then betraying her did seem to undo years of character growth and development. It's so cynical. If the writers had just left Brienne and Jamie's relationship as an amazing example of platonic love, then his leaving to help Cersei wouldn't have felt so pathetic and stupid and selfish. It wouldn't have been so aggravating. I truly appreciate your arguments and your perspective. I'm going to watch it again and chew on your ideas some more.

Jaime never really had an arc, we just explored the depth of who he was...being revealed to us over the course of the show

.....I hesitate every time I want to say: Everyone can be redeemed. Maybe not everyone within their own lifetimes... Forgiveness is so powerful, and oftentimes its a leap of faith. The forgiven may let us down. I have always strongly identified with Jaime's arc. Love is the most powerful of motivators, and the one you love can cast you out or much worse... and yet, the Heart has a mind of its own. It doesn't listen to reason. I have been in a similar dynamic as Cersei & Jaime, and although she's not my sister, the association is nearly as long and I often wonder just what else she could do to make me swear her off forever. What happened in the end with those two lovers... basically demonstrated a level of love and devotion that isn't logical; it just IS. And it exists. Love IS the meaning of life. Its why we are all here.

Dude!!!! Your channel is phenomenal. It's nice to finally come across someone who gets it. Sure the last few seasons could have added a few more episodes each but the last few seasons aren't the defining moments of these characters, the defining moments have been stretched over the entire show since season 1 and people are only using the last two season to judge these characters. These characters have been developed long before season 7 started and now we seeing how everything plays out.

The threat of catapulting babies was, I think, just that. A threat, and possibly even a bluff, just to "bully" his opponent into ultimately surrendering the castle with no loss of life. This may not be "honorable", but it certainly is "heroic" - he saved a lot of lives. And to actually be accurate, his family no more started the war of the 5 kings than the Starks did. Those events were set in motion, entirely, by Littlefinger. Both the Lannisters and the Starks, were equal pawns in the scheme of a third party. The only reason anyone would perceive the Lannisters responsible for that war is because of way in which we were presented the Starks as the protagonists and the Lannisters as the antagonists, from the first episode. Other than that, its a good essay.

The word rushed comes to mind. It's not necessarily that all the ideas in season 8 are terrible (but some are) but they tend to feel forced and rushed in a show that one was slow and methodical.

The book really goes to great lengths to show that his actions in the Riverlands were him at his most noble. He dissolved that situation without bloodshed when it would have been very easy for him to do so. He was also trying desperately to stay true to his word that he would never take up arms against Stark or Tully despite absolutely no one else caring about his vow or expecting him to keep it. He wasn't fighting for a bad cause at that point. The war with Rob Stark had been one. He was fighting for peace, and he achieved it without a drop of blood. He's also already basically broken up with Cersei in the books at that point, with her getting it on with the Kettlebecks.

I really appreciate your nuanced takes on the show. I don't always agree, but it's always fun to watch!

The things we do for love 🤷🏿‍♂️

This is the only argument I've heard to Jamie's failed redemption that is actually well thought out. Kudos to you!

Jaime: I’m not that person anymore. Me: talk is cheap, Jaime.

Yours is the first show that makes more sense about Jaime. I call it a "so called Redemption Arc", because I don't see it as voluntary. When did the movement begin? When he lost not gave up his hand. His ability as a swordsman and his beauty were his identify. Now he was handless and wallowing in the mud. Any movement would have to be either upward or down into death. It was like Jaime had to swallow his arrogance cause he could no longer defend himself. He had to take "low" in and appear humble. At the end he had to be true to himself as it was tied to Cersei his mirror image.

The problem is more that it was a complete relapse. It is reasonable that Jamie would return back to his sister, but there is absolutely no reason for why he would drop everything for her. It is true that full redemption is not always an option for people, but simply abandoning everything he has achieved at the drop of a hat with very little development is what really sets it apart of from a truly good tragedy. For him to say that he is a bad person at heart does not in anyway fall in line with his actions. It would have been better for him to have still felt guilt for returning to his sister. And what could have made his story even more tragic is a mercy killing of his sister or simply deciding he must kill her for the sake of saving his soul, but ultimately killing himself in the process of redemption. We can justify why the ending in a vacuum fits his character, but it’s hard to justify how we got to that point. Same case for Dany. People are imperfect, but consistency in writing can’t be sacrificed.

"A man that, above all else, championed crazy, stupid love." Thank you, I needed to hear that, I'd begun to wonder if I was imagining things. Cool (and funny) vid. Liked and subbed.

Another excellent video! Wow... Well done.

Great analysis!

I really enjoyed this review and agree that a redemption arc doesn't have to be thorough. Though I think his relationship with Cersei doesn't represent ''crazy, stupid love" but a twisted form of narcissism and stunted growth, a refusal to go out and embrace the world, choosing instead to focus love and energy on his own reflection. When he says 'fuck the world' besides him and Cersei, it is really a fear of leaving his safety zone, the insular delusion he has built with her since childhood. That he might return to that at the last moment and choose to die embracing this twisted relationship does make sense, but I think he should have grown out of Cersei seasons ago. She has outgrown him and used him as a tool since he lost his hand and ceased to be the perfect golden boy reflection that she wanted. She even was able to have a larger world by loving her children, but Jaime couldn't even grasp beyond that. His only hope was his good but less intense relationships with Brienne and Tyrion, two supposed 'freaks' who brought out the best in him. She was happy to have some comfort from her oldest champion in her last moments, but she doesn't truly love him. It feels like he has commit suicide twice, once dying FOR her, and once dying AS her, her mirror reflection.

Fun fact - in the end, Jaime make a full taboo's combo in Westeros: Kinglsayer, incest lover and knight have sex with knight. But at least we have a good redemption story --- a Theon arc.

Great video. Hopefully more to come

Very interesting analysis. Thanks.

The problem is not that he came back with Cersei. I kind of liked it because, how you say, thats how people are, and it makes sense for Jaime to come back to Cersei even when she sent Bronn to kill him, even Tyrion felt pain and sadness when he saw his evil sister dead. The thing is that he said to Tyrion that he never actually cared for people, that erases all the character development during the series, he is not a character anymore, just a puppet. It doesn't make any sense, he killed the mad king to save the people, and THIS SEASON he travelled north to protect the seven kingdoms and fight against the army of the dead. A great character destroyed in one line just because the writers want everything to be unpredictable.

I agree that this was correct. Thanks for making this video.

The sad thing is that the took out two character arcs with one stone. Jamie and Brianne. She's one of the strongest most honorable people on the show. She sleeps with Jamie, then begs him to stay while she is a crying hot mess. After she just got knighted. WHY? They have never done anything romantic tell that night and all the sudden she is an emotional teenage girl. Come on!

This is brilliant!!! Thank you!

So...it's the day after the finale, and I've just NOW discovered the best GoT commentary on KZfaq. Typical. Anyway, I subscribed. I'm glad you touched on the fallacy of the linear character arc. If you look around you at the people in your life, who would you describe as "consistent" or "true to their character" in any reliable way? People routinely do things that are not only unexpected by the people around them, even those who know them best, but are unexpected even by themselves. No one in the real world can be counted on to be "true to their character" without fail, and everyone does things "not predicated by their past behavior." Pretty routinely, actually. Real people, even good people, are confused sometimes, unreliable, and strangers even to themselves. When GRRM talks about grey characters, we usually just think of that in terms of good vs. evil. But there are a lot more ways that realistic characters are grey. And disappointing people, failing to meet expectations, and even deluding themselves are a big part of that.

9:45 - Every Witcher 3 player who as Geralt chose Triss over Yennefer in Witcher 3 : The man who finally grew up

One. Jaime should have never slept with Brienne. It was pretty clear that he was only sleeping with her because he respected her a lot and felt like a good man because of her. She deserved better honestly. Two. aside from him doing that to Brienne, I don't think him going to Cersei ruined his redemption arc at all. Cersei is the woman he loves and the mother of all of his, including his unborn children. He was always going to go to her, even if only she died and not him. The true test was that he didn't really have to fuck anybody over to get back to her.

Well it was an 'Arc' What goes up must come down

Brilliant analysis! Jaime is truly the Shakespearean archetype of a Tragic Hero or like Sophocles' Oedipus in Oedipus Rex which is also a play about incestuous love. Not all heroes are supposed to grow and develop or change because not all people change in real life. But that's the literary/dramatic beauty of tragic story lines. Tragic characters like Jaime have to be accepted for their tragic flaws just like how Jaime always accepted those he loved with their flaws. All this hamartia may lead to their inevitable downfall just like a drug addict but the beauty of GoT is that Martin managed to use a character like Jaime to represent the old order that had to perish in order to make way for something new. While Jaime's character arc represented a change and a relapse, Daenerys' character was passive at first, then changed to aggressively active and finally descended into a dark, murderous state of madness. All in all, Jaime, Cersei, Daenerys, Sandor, Gregor, Theon, Lady Olenna, Margaery, Littlefinger, Varys, Stannis, the Red Woman, etc. all of them represented the old order. The old order had to die because each of these characters were prisoners of the old mentality.

I really liked you conclusion, it was very powerful and coherent. It saddens me that people have started treating GoT like any other classic fantasy plot, completely disregarding that it's deeply rooted in realism. It's understandable, because we all care for our favorite characters and we all want to see them decent, we even associate ourselves with them to some extent. But it is frustrating nonetheless. 'If you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.'

Great breakdown. Thanks

Jaime's ending contrasts Jon's. For Jaime love of his queen is the death of his duty. For Jon duty is the death of his love, Queen Daenerys.

Jaime and Cersei are the Forbidden Love. The Unity of Descent into Evil (Cersei) and Redemption into the Good (Jaime). They have to die together in order to Close the Circle. The Opposites Unite in the End. Ultimately Jaime becomes Christ the Redeemer as he Redeems his Polar Opposite, Cersei the Evil. It is the Perfect Story. Evil and Good go hand in hand, Born together to Die together.

I really liked that video, thank you very much! I was really sad after Jamies dead, but both Cersei and Jamie were sure that they would leave this world together as they came into this world together. A relationship like this, from the moment of birth, cannot be compared to someone just ending a marriage or something like this. And I have to say that i am glad that he had that happy (?) time with Brienne, not only for his but for her sake. They were great together and I hope Brienne has now finally experienced something positive that relates to a man.

can someone please explain to me why jaime only decides to go back to cersei *after* he hears that she's winning massively and dany's almost defeated? why didn't he go earlier when it seemed like cersei was actually in danger?

I was just so disappointed with Jamie and Cercei's death. Even in the show we are shown that Jamie kills the mad king to save the peoples of kings landing, he is a flawed hero, then in episode 5 when talking to Tyrion he says "well frankly I never liked them anyway". Why build up his platonic relationship with Brienne for that pussy to be so bad he develops dementia and goes crawling back between Cerceis legs all for this dumb af baby arc. Why was he even at the battle of winterfell then. I think the reason why we are so dissapointed with this season is literally every single story and character arc has 'concluded' in the most unsatisfactory way possible, forgetting 8 seasons worth of setup. purely for subverting our expectations. Would it not have been more emotionally rewarding for the viewer if we see Jamie finally freeing himself from Cercei control over him? I think he should die in the process as the twin dynamic between the two leads to believe one couldn't survive without the other (despite how many times Cersei tries to kill Jamie).No because fuck you he dies to some bricks lmao.

I'm not upset Jaime didn't redeem himself.I just lost all respect for Jaime when he returned to Cersei. She is a known serial killer that murdered Robert, murdered hundreds of innocent people in the blowing up of the Sept (even said she had "fun" doing it), caused their own son Tommen to commit suicide, said "he betrayed me", and caused this war because she didn't want to negotiate with her enemy. I won't say they killed his character. I'll just say his character is a piece of shit. He died comforting a psychopathic murderer. His story is a lesson in someone you should avoid being.

I never thought I needed Mark Addy/Robert Baratheon as the Ghost of Christmas Present, but now I want it

1:10 That's a clip I haven't seen in a loong time. I never thought I'd find another Hot Rod fan on the tube.

Jamie come back for Cersei is not the problem. We all can understand love can beat almost anything. The problem is how meaningless is Jamie arc. Even if in the end Jamie defend Cersei from Jon or Danny, if it is cleverly add up to the result of the main story, then it is can be good story arc. But what we have is nothing. Cersei will die without Jamie appearance. Danny will burn King's Landing regardless Jamie choice. It felt hollow. I know in the real life arc doesn't have to be paid off. But this is also story for entertainment. His arc needs payoff.

your commentary is so insightful. I hope your videos get the recognition they deserve :)

Having watched the final Jaime / Brienne conversation again... ...I think Jaime's 'hateful' comment is not about going back to Cersei being hateful. It's that he just bedded the most honorable woman he will ever know under the false expectation that he would or could ever leave Cersei. That is a pretty low down thing to do. I had no problem with him returning to Cersei. He has always loved her unconditionally, as you say. And he loved his children. I don't see how you could just go and kill your lover of such a long time 'for the good of the realm'. It wouldn't make sense.

BRAVO!!!!! I wrote a really long comment, but I deleted it because I don't want to waste my time arguing with strangers on the internet. Haha! So I'll just say that I'm with you 100% and I'm so glad to know that I'm not the only one out there who LOVED the way Jaime was written on the show (for the reasons that you so eloquently stated).

I've found it ridiculous how people are shitting on D&D for following GRRM words to a fricken T in the case of Jamie; calling it bad writing. Yeah they're incompetent, but they can actually follow directions when they chose to do so.

When he loved Cercei he never even touch a woman even once. He has a honor on his own. And you say his character just turn around and he fucks Brienne even he still love Cercei? Are you kidding with me? Real humans don't act like that. They just butchered his character all over along with the redemption path he CHOSE

I like how everyone was so sure the Queenslayer thing was gonna happen, it's even listed with stuff that has already happened in the show, like it's a given.

Thank you for addressing this. I feel like the drama of the finale blinds people from remembering the realistic depth of these characters. Their imperfections are what made this whole story so believable from the beginning.

Thank you. The strength of these stories is the humaness of the POV characters and the manner in which development is not linear but spirals and loops and circles and jagged

I wish he would have given Brienne a better explanation and told her he was sorry ...