This is way broader than hypertruck. Nobody can afford those now... these are needed across whole market

I feel as you do, also a big LOSER on HYLIION. Heard all the same speeches and wild numbers about the truck that suddenly just disappeared and became a generator. Like the PLUG Power, not today, tomorrow, 10 years later not today, tomorrow.

Don't trust this fella exit while u can .the short seller was right

Check out Edison Motors, they do basicly the same technology but as an Off-highway logging truck

they probably do...

You saw that also, so is Hyliion going to license the IP?

@@iamatree4246 LOL, you don’t have a faintest idea of what was being talked about ‽

@@iamatree4246 I would strongly suspect that there is quite a lot of patents associated with the gas bearings, seals and how the linear motor / generator interoperate (type of magnetic layout). The area of these linear motors is an active area of r and d and is not quite as mature as suggested. Besides, all sorts of new IP is being created in turbines and even ICEs. You have to remember that all sorts of patents are based on a variation of a concept that is old but being applied in a new domain. The Karno is rather complex in its own way which provides opportunities for IP.

@@iamatree4246 OK, we are mostly on the same page, but it doesn’t take a lot of thinking to come up with say, a somewhat novel way of protecting against over excursion due to XYZ that is patentable. Or maybe a mechanism to equalize the working fluid amount on both sides that compensates for its usage in the gas bearings. It is these little details that are used as patent protection. Or control algorithms used for startups to get the actuator into harmonic resonance (which might actually be a thing with Karno).

@@iamatree4246 My sense is that GE Additive did all the design work that has been shown about the Karno (so far). I think some of the people came over from GE. Personally I have questions about scalability of manufacturing, a number of combustor issues, ect … They will not even clarify what differentiates Karno from a Sterling engine because they will not ever say the word Sterling. Somewhat sus.

2x more lol

considering there are fewer moving parts, greater efficiency, quieter operation along with very low maintenance cost they've indicated the cost should be comparable (yet more profitable if they can scale the 3D part - I'm assuming when they say some parts take several days to print, they are talking about more than one piece in the oven). I just looked up a 50kW Generac diesel listing for around $20k ...

Very important point, the “Achilles heel” of additive manufacturing. It is bottlenecked by TOTAL laser power output. It has its limitations and issues. They were definitely dancing again. “Fake it, till u make it”, time!

To greatly over simplify, what is the “spring constant” of the overall system that establishes the resonant frequency? Not to mention that it is probably an extremely highly damped oscillator also. It is probably a complex but interesting question to answer. Good point.

@@Mentaculus42 I wonder how they can synchronize the 4-shaft system. They would have to monitor/adjust the load and position of each shaft so they can get them to cancel eachother out as much as possible. The demo doesn't appear to do this (yet). I'll try to ask Josh on his X channel (not holding my breath tho).

@@ivantuma7969 Probably doable, as the power electronics that control the linear motor / generator should have the ability to know the exact position of the “rod”. From that it should be able to get things reasonably “orchestrated” if it be out of phase synchronization or maybe something else to smooth the current pulses between the four units. It is an interesting control system issue but just recovering “power” from a linear generator that oscillates is relatively complicated compared to conventional generators.

Yes, they are related, but in a hot gas engine like this the working fluid never changes state (it is always a gas), while in a Rankine cycle such as a steam engine the working fluid (traditionally water) moves between states (boils and condenses) and that is critical to the cycle working.

They employ the same GE equipment used in aircraft manufacturing, so the "expectation" is that some moderate scalability is baked in - otherwise GE wouldn't have sold the patent for partial payment in Hyliion stock. But that's just speculation...

@@ivantuma7969 sales by an established company with a component of stock in the start-up purchasing company can be just sales for the cash value, with stock thrown in as a bonus to get the selling company involved in the start-up. GE could value that stock at anything, including zero.

@@ivantuma7969 Good speculation but there are other possibilities.

Why a “locomotive engine”? You would need 100 Karnos units and then you would need a “tender car” for the low carbon fuel which has been tried and rejected for various reasons in the real world trials that were conducted in the past!

@@Mentaculus42 Correct, in those 4+ MW engines it would be best to continue using a turbo diesel-alternator set for now for long distances, until Karno is ubiquitous or can be shipped ahead and installed at repair yards. Though with their efficiency, 25+ swapable four unit Karno banks running on diesel or bio diesel in a belly tank is fine with how massive (20+ m long) those engines are. They would forgo long warmup/idle times and reduce maintenance (which is a lot, I've been on maintenance teams for 3.5 MW backup power sets, it's an evolution!); ancillaries like the oil sump, turbo set, alternator, radiator (or a smaller one) which are all huge in these engines are eliminated. Also if a Karno unit or two fails it can just be isolated through software and over all engine power output will barely fall, especially for multi engine trains, then the banks with failed units can be swapped out when convenient. Though a new long hood would have to be designed to take full advantage of quickly swapping Karno banks. Karno would excel in replacing diesel-generator/alternator sets in smaller engines and run them on CNG or RNG, and those fuels are available or can be piped into nearly any yard. I also agree running any engine, except maybe a yard or shipping port engine, on H2 is a pipe dream since it's low energy density in CG form would require a tender car(s?) for distance travel and a robust extensive low carbon H2 infrastructure won't exist for quite some time, it's best to just use diesel and NG for that.

My question about Karno is sure it works, but how does it compete with fuel cells for efficiency and mobility? It seems as though the standard is fuel cells and the outlier is Karno. There must be some reason for that. Either a fuel cell handles bumpy roads better or some other metric like efficiency, otherwise the trend towards a standard would be Karno's not fuel cells.

Newton's 3rd law - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction & those actions/reactions produce heat.

@@parrsnipps4495 That "actions/reactions produce heat" nonsense is not part of any of Newton's Laws.

Why do you think they purposefully avoid that terminology, I have my suspicions about that?

You carefully didn’t say that this is a Sterling engine, is it or is it not, and why!? Also “Continuous combustion is a good thing in most ways”, it is complicated and I appreciate the “in most ways” distinction that you added as there are benefits for pulsed combustion also.

It is not a Stirling engine,@@Mentaculus42, because it does not appear to use a displacer (which is normally another piston moving about 90 degrees out of phase with the working piston) to shift the gas between the heating and cooling sections. Instead, it apparently depends on some sort of resonant motion that they never describe. Otherwise, it is similar to a Stirling in operation, depending on cyclic gas expansion and contraction due to heating (by a heat source) and cooling (at heat sink, in this case cooled by circulating liquid and a radiator, which are never shown in Hyliion's promotional material). Ironically, while combustion is continuous, the engine operation is inherently cyclic, not continuous. It's the external-combustion equivalent to a gasoline or diesel internal-combustion engine, not (for instance) the external-combustion equivalent to gas turbine engine (which has continuous internal combustion). It is so similar to a Stirling that it would be obvious for Hyliion to explain the difference between Karno and Stirling, but there have been so many failed promotions of Stirling engines that I think it's somewhat understandable that they never mention the dreaded term "Stirling".

I agree,@@Mentaculus42 - there are many factors in combustion management and no clear single best approach... but a continuous burner is certainly easier, especially with a wide range of fuels having different flame front propagation speeds.

@@brianb-p6586 I will in no way categorically say that this is an orthodox Sterling engine, but looking back at my notes that go through all the screenshots of the thermal cycle, I think that we can be both correct. Orthodox sterling engines need to have a physical “phase differential” between the hot piston and the “displacer” which is accomplished by the geometry of the mechanical linkages. With Karno one has other ways of accomplishing the same type of phase differential between the hot and cold side by routing the gases twice with through “restrictive” heat exchangers that are connected by a rather large ancillary volume (that they “call” a regenerator [which is generally a necessity by definition for a Sterling Engine], but the pictures that are available don’t clearly indicate that it is actually just a regenerator as it is unclear if there is any medium to absorb heat energy) that I suspect is sized to (as you would say) resonate or maybe more accurately its sizing and configuration delays the propagation of pressure changes from the two sides. Since there is a linear motor controlling the precise timing of the movement of the piston, the timing of events are “moderated” (probably a bad word) by the combination of the “time constants” caused by the geometry of the side “volumes” and the engine’s power electronics. The control exercised by the power electronics is something that was not available to older Sterling engines. So if this is the case, it becomes a definitional issue if this is basically another “variant” of the general category of “Sterling engine” or deserves a totally unique name as Hyliion seems to prefer. As far as I can tell, this engine is an extremely close variant of a Sterling engine but has some unique aspects that the GE inventors contributed to its design.

Probably a very bad match of Karno to application, that low power density and duty cycle for an auto would be going in the wrong direction.

That is good thing you can invest like blackrock and myself

He's spent enough time in Texas to be "acclimatized" :D I used to work with a bunch of guys from Fort Worth TX - hearing tapes of my speeches years later proved that their accent and subconscious mangling of certain words rubbed off on me. At least he's not saying "nu-killer" (yet).

@@ivantuma7969 Aah, that explains the pronunciation by a particular two term president 😂

Yes, which is acceptable knowing this company....

@@cowboyspace1 More of it, agreed

Problem is they are not successful entrepreneurs. They can talk until they are blue in the face. That doesn't mean they will make a profit. Just going from one idea to another. Might as well be snake oil salesmen of the past.

So what do you think about the “liquid fuel” is externally vaporized and then the “gaseous vapor” is pushed to the combustor nozzles as was promoted by a commentator? When the diesel was “combusted” it didn’t look like was doing that process particularly effectively.

🤒🤢🤮😵

100 so hr oil change Lie

😄There's definitely background noise. Additive manufacturing ... "set it, and forget it" - Ron Popeil but yea, it would have been more encouraging to see workers in the background.

The staff was fired 😭

@@oskar7286 estimate is they are down to about 86 employees... as sad as it is, definitely working for a startup, people accept the risk (usually you trade risk in exchange for stock options - or that's how it used to be before Sarbanes-Oxley when I worked for my last startup job). They were geared up for truck electrification system assembly, and pivoted to a different type of manufacturing that didn't require their skillset. I'm sure quit a few picked up their family to move to Cedar Park, TX ... which means they'll have to move back to where trucks are manufactured for better employment opportunities. It's why I'd never work for a startup now - but when I was younger, I could shake it off. The options from my old job never amounted to much. I think I still have about $3000 worth of their stock (was planning on those shares turning into $100K :D ). I have no clue how effective HYON will be at executing the new business strategy. Great ideas - but ... no legacy other than meeting past milestones (other than sales targets).

Healys incompetent

Just like the CEO

These questions were specifically addressed in the Q/A part. They specifically stated that because the hot side and the working parts are isolated, there is not real issue with those poorer fuels. They will have to deal with the exhaust if the pollutants (that do no participate in the oxidation process) will pass right through the combustor and exit the exhaust. As for the multi fuel, they specifically stated that their system can run on any fuel without any part # changes... the entire system works on any fuel as is. The system already supports 100% hydrogen as a fuel. They also talked about the efficiency cycle... the comparison they made in the demonstration was that the Karno was almost twice as efficient as the classic diesel powered genset. (The diesel was listed as between 20% and 25% total efficiency, whereas the Karno was at about 50%.)

@@williamsteele Not to mention the pollutants would end up in the atmosphere anyway when the gases are flared. Instead that heat is turned into electricity, lots of sour folks here.

@@williamsteele Actually they didn’t, they said some generalizations but didn’t answer these questions at all, at least not from an engineering perspective. When they say, “we tried such and such, it didn’t immediately crap out” is as far away from doing the proper engineering lifetime test as is possible. Basically, as an engineer, what was said was talking points for simpletons to motivate them to … As far as your technical explanation as to why it is this or that is not what the problem is. Things just passing through that labyrinth of a hot side heat exchanger is quite a laugh. Their efficiency is also not as good as existing ICE generators on the larger range that they said they were going to try to sell into (they need to be better than 55%, as that has been accomplished for over a decade now!) Also it appears that everything you “know” about Karno comes from “THEIR TALKING POINT”. Maybe it helps to have a graduate engineering degree from a competent university and to have spent around a day on figuring out in detail what they are “not saying” before one drinks the “Fool-Aid”. Actually I was rather moderate on the critical aspects of any questions, besides it was them who “painfully avoided” answering the question. For example, California would not allow someone to burn contaminated fuel for power generation these days! So ok in Texas probably, but they were rather bad in their answer.

No, a short list of prefered fuels is not "any fuel",@@williamsteele. Do you really think that you could put heavy fuel oil or raw vegetable oil into the fuel injector designed for methane and have it work?

​@@williamsteele The anticipated fuel savings of the Karno over some comparison diesel was claimed as between 20% and 25% reduction in fuel consumption. If the Karno is at 55% efficiency, that implies diesel efficiency of 41 to 44%, which is plausible. The specific diesel unit shown was reported to be spec'd at between 20% and 25% total efficiency, but it was probably just whatever they could get from their local rental outlet, not comparable to what a diesel-electric series hybrid truck would use.

Lol. 😂😂

Fool-Aid is the drink that keeps on giving.