Babymonster are quite good for their age, I hope they improve in the future tho

@@pinkie6766 they won't, yg doesn't train their vocalists

⁠@@fionn9816 actually if you compare their skills before and after joining yg you’ll see that they trained them well. They’re not the best ofc but they’re still very young and far better that other kpop vocalists their age. I hope yg will still train them after the debut because they have the potential to become the best vocalists yg have even had

unfortunately debuting literal pre teens isn't new. we have many idols who debuted that young without proper training and are still struggling today. the issue is that industries don't learn because we don't require them to do so. the discourse over kids debuting has grown and grown. what's stopping actual change is that it's all talk. because people still hype up these groups and sexualise these teens. as long as labels are receiving pay, they're going to continue doing what they're doing. same in america where company's like disney and nickelodeon have been heavily critiscised but no one has stopped rooting for child stars so we still have them despite us all being aware of the extreme abuse they suffer. actually that's probably a pro for kpop idols. atleast those kids mainly only have korea and japan to impress. a smaller industry means in a way it's a tad less competitive and gaining less attention that can become negative attention. but kpop is growing globally so we'll see how things shift in the next few years.

@@fionn9816 I think they will pull BP training. YG will train them until debut and leave them like they did with BP and probably with 2ne1, BigBang, iKon etc.

exactly the case with twice, gfriend, etc, the fact the most of their members can't sing should be addressed when people say "twice have such good vocals" when 6/9 of their members cant sing😭 this applies to almost every group too

This annoys me so much with Red Velvet 🙄 positions exist for a reason and it's good to have each member focusing on their area of expertise, when they work together it all fits

​​​​@@fionn9816 Lol Funny you mentioned TWICE when TWICE has often been the punching bag of kpop stans in terms of vocals. They are far from being great singers but it's true that their vocal line and some of their subvocalists are more decent than a lot of kpop idols, especially when compared to groups like BP or BTS. I agree about gfriend though since their fans would always use their "stable" vocals to drag other groups like TWICE when in reality, only Yuju can sing well while the rest are pretty much on par with TWICE's subvocalists. It really irked me back then when their fans be like.. even Eunha or "insert any gfriend subvocalists" can be main vocal in TWICE when all their members except for Yuju are really way below 2yeon technically. It's also ridiculous that kpop stans are acting as if TWICE committed a crime for having only 3/9 that have can sing because the whole kpop industry is guilty of that. Groups like Mamamoo were 3/1 are good singers are rare because in reality, kpop groups only have 1or 2 members out of 4,5,6,7, 8, 9 members that can sing decently. Kpop companies know that, isn't that why they have main and lead vocals who carry the group in singing? Kpop stans often drag Momo's vocals when she actually sounds like a lot of subvocalists in kpop who have pitch, intonations issues or more. I also find it funny when kpop stans praise stability even when a lot of those stable idols are so flat or off key.

​@@fionn9816 I guess Chaeyoung and Mina are just fine, as they have some moments where they're singing better than Tzuyu, Sana, Momo and Dahyun. The thing for Twice is, their vocals have regressed, apparently Momo is a good piece of evident for it. And what I also find funny, they have 2 lead-vocalists (Jeongyeon and Nayeon) and 1 main-vocalist (Jihyo) and most of the times only Jihyo's and Nayeon's voices are really used and Jeongyeon get's mostly left out when she's 2nd best in the grp

But my Queen is a real vocalist in KPOP, just she doesn't have a group or her group name is "Atomic Pink" kzfaq.info/get/bejne/is6adptpndemfXU.html

Kyuhyun, XIA

1st gen actually kinda week? Their best kpop vocalist are Kangta who is not that strong and bada was pretty strong. 2nd gen was where all good vocalist born, like how you could find easily group with at least B+ main vocal. 3rd gen still steong but for 4th gen, they degrade. SM is the most notable one

@@rurimasruroh5581 what about miyeon from baby vox ?

@@rurimasruroh5581 Lee Ji Hye from Sharp is a decent vocalist from 1st gen

BROOO!! 2nd generation idols were *INCREDIBLE!!* Especially Girls Generation! THEY SNAPPED!! They all had good voices! Taeyeon, Tiffany, Jessica, Seohyun and the rest of the members had unique and beautiful voices. Even as someone who was very new to Kpop I could still tell their voices apart. They were vocal powerhouses! I used to replay their songs so many times and repeat certain parts that sounded amazing! IU is also amazing! Big bang’s Taeyang and Daesung, and many more.. Now, all idols sound the same and scream into the microphone and then call it a “high note” and their fans would clap like seals for that😒🤦‍♀️ I stopped listening to K-pop for a few years and got back into western music, recently I came across K-pop idols singing “live” and it sounds really cringe and artificial to me. I guess one of the reasons why their “fans” accept their horrible vocals is because they’re too used to the bad singing in K-pop that it sounds natural to them. Let them stop listening to K-pop for a while and then they’ll start to see the difference again.

Please. I see comments saying they eat only CDs for breakfast for groups like enhypen, Gidle, skz, itzy, newjeans, Ive, TXT & I'm like.. 😐

They would die on that hill too.

@@averyatwell95 as someone who loves IVE and nwjns I agree hard on these 😭 their over praised a lot same with itzy

pretty much the ahyeon's dangerously cover lmao

@@averyatwell95 tbh I love txt, but I can’t agree with fans, that their vocals is amazing…like no…all member struggling and straining, I can even hear that in studio version..

thiiiiis! they are such a perfect kpop idol group because they literally have the vocal talent, excellent dance skills, and have the charisma. and each member can greatly do both singing and dancing, not just be known on one aspect.

Legends for a reason !

100% agree

Suju!

@@zoeskrivanou2505 Kyuhyun is one of my favorite singers!! He broke my heart when he cried on The Masked Singer after singing "Y Si Fuera Ella". Suju, SHINee and EXO are my favorites. These groups have stood the test of time!! Suju is incredibly close to SHINee members!! As you probably already know, Leeteuk, Eunhyuk and Donghae were pallbearers for Jonghyun ❤

My Hyung just speaks the truth

CLIP PLEASE

The sad part is most of the ITZY members have the potential to be decent singers if they were taught to use proper vocal technique and to sing comfortably within their range. For a company that works their idols to produce a lot more music in a year than other companies, you would think they would wanna keep and maintain their idols to last for a long time. 😢

Finally I found someone who understand my problem with yeji's high notes and that's y Lia's voice is needed in this group atleast her voice is not going to bleed my ears.

Seriously. If you can't teach idols proper technique, at least give them easier songs to sing.

Yes. And Their Best Vocalists are the ones with less training time.

​@@mathhenri4608 yeah good vocalists usually just debut right away, Wendy trained for a year and a few months and I think Baekhyun was only a few months? SM has the groups ready with the dancers and rappers and waits for a good main vocalist to audition so they go straight to the debut lineup

omg this!! People keep blaming their company as if the idols aren't old enough and don't have the common sense to perfect their art or improve by their own will. Come on, are you telling me they don't know that they aren't good vocalists or they just don't care about vocals and would rather by a high fashion brand ambassador?! The standard is really nonexistent!!

But even if already trained Idols are brought in , wouldn't they lose their Voice without proper Vocal guidance further down the road ? I think that's where the USP of SM Ent. lies in ! They invest in knowledgeable Vocal teachers who help their artists in learning new things (Eg: Baekhyun learning new techniques for his Bambi album and Wendy always talks about taking Vocal lessons till day)

​@@chickfighter5587 I agree, that is definitely important! But my issue is with people talking as if SM made them good in the first place, as if their training did all the magic. If that was the case SM wouldn't have some weak vocalists

It is. Their job is to be Idols not singers. Plenty of western pop stars can’t sing. It’s always been like this. I don’t understand why people don’t understand this.

You think K-pop is all about singing?

@@cktemple3452 not all. But it's one of the most important part of it!!

Well some idols have other positions like Momo from Twice is main dancer and one of the best dancers in kpop. However Momo’s vocals are really bad and her rapping is okey. Momo is talented just not in vocals as she is really good dancer.

@@user-oq9jh3sf4g exactly

Ikr

Even EXO’s lead or sub vocalists like Suho, Xiumin and Chanyeol could pass off as main vocalists if they were in other groups.

@@billliealimalmost every boy group to ever EXIST tbh.

Why people tend to overlook Suho and Xiumin??? 😭

Now most kpop groups don't care about haonies anymore. On the stage, they play backing track and it's done.

I really agree with this statement. Most fans don't consider the group aspect of skills and it actually strange. Nobody wants to watch a soloists within a group.

Yeah. One thing that I think there is quite a shortage of in K-pop is groups singing in harmony in their songs.

@@tigerofvirgo9because they can’t. When a group has more then 5 people the harmony is break down to only the good/decent vocalist in that group. Nct, not all members do the harmony. 127 it’s always, Taeil, DOYOUNG, jaehyun, Haechan(sometimes), Jungwoo and sometimes adding yuta in there. If all members did the harmony it would sound to busy. Live is different but in the studio it’s impossible to match all different voices for it not to sound out of place

Because that's exactly what it is- they can't just debut a soloist **actually** solo usually, because they'll only appeal to certain people. So they always debut them as a group first.

@@torikpop822 There's a lack or harmonizing, even when the groups are smaller.

And Hyolyn from Sistar, but still not the same for the majority of the groups.

i made a point, but another thought just occurred me. Hyolyn and Taeyeon are more popular because the vocal gap between them and their members.

I wasn't a fan during 2nd gen but someone here said when snsd were active Yoona and Sooyoung were the most biased and Taeyeon is the most popular now cause she stayed in the industry and I think both these girls are more popular than Tiffany now. Is the same scenario for Hyolyn or was she always the most popular? (Either way it's still the minority of cases in every gen, the most good looking will always be the most popular regardless of talent, I like the girl but how on earth is Tzuyu the most popular Twice member)

I can only think of taeyeon,hyolyn and baekhyun as most popular main Vocalists 😭

During peak snsd time, weren't Jessica, Yoona & Tiffany/Yuri the most popular members? Taeyeon got more popular after Jessica left, snsd went into hiatus & Taeyeon became active as a soloist. But I'm not sure.

In Umpah Umpah where Wendy is singing the bridge but they are only showing Irene kills me every time. Why isn't it SHOWING THE VOCALIST?!?

Yes, Wendy usually has the shortest center and screen time but you will only see fans demanding that they all have the same line time.

@@Diana-yf9nb Yeah, apparently it's forbidden for her stans to complain about that since every times someone start complain about that stans of the other members' will butting in and invalidate their complains lol. Something about she isn't the visual and she has lines so her stans better should the fck up and not complaining like they themselves complain about their faves lack of lines when they aren't even in vocal line lmao 🤣

Wendy, Solar and Wheein are the best current female kpop group vocalists and nobody else comes close.

@@nicoleshhlily does.

Yeah in NCT they are members who are not main or lead vocalists but have decent vocals such as Mark, Yuta, Yangyang, etc.

De acuerdo contigo, SM tiene su mérito.

sm does deserve some amount of credit for their vocal training, but not nearly as much as you're giving them. it seems like sm has some good and maybe even really good vocal coaches but they also definitely have some vocal coaches who are terrible. they seem to be good at scouting good vocalists and they also seem to decide to give some trainees proper vocal training (i think it's the ones who are already good, like wendy as you said got good advice for vocal technique) while others don't get proper vocal training. for one, a lot of their non-vocal line members fall firmly in the underdeveloped category for vocalists. irene and yeri have basically no grasp of vocal technique and they both trained for five and four years respectively. this is quite egregious. it should only take a few months at most to teach a beginner basic technique. the fact that they didn't learn anything in that long must mean they either had no voice lessons or a terrible teacher. also, a lot of sm vocal line members (mostly talking about nct here) are not properly trained either. they have a halo around them partly because stans have very low standards where "stays on key" and "sings a high note" are considered marks of a great vocalist when the former is literally the bare minimum (i need to stress that i'm not exaggerating, being on key is not an accomplishment. it's the bare minimum) and the latter is completely irrelevant in determining whether someone is a good vocalist or not (what matters is your technique, not just that you hit a high note). i'm an nct dream ult so i'm literally the last person who'd have anything against those guys but they have an extremely weak vocal line. haechan, who is the best vocalist, doesn't even have a proper grasp of basic vocal technique. he does have some idea of basic vocal technique but his grasp on it is not strong. chenle and renjun have an even weaker grasp. to the point where mark, who is not a vocal line member (i guess technically he's a sub vocalist but he doesn't sing much and sm also made like... every dude in nct a sub vocal so i'm not counting it) is around the same level as them, and arguably is actually better (depending on whose approach you're favouring). in case you think i'm being harsh, i know someone who started practicing singing (on their own, they don't have a voice teacher) about a month ago and they're literally as good as chenle/renjun/mark now. a MONTH. that's no time at all compared to how long these guys have trained and practiced and been active singers. at their level (including haechan) literally the only thing stopping you from being better is FURTHER PRACTICE. you learn some technique and have a bit of a flimsy grasp of it (which is where they are at with their vocals) and literally the only thing you have to do to improve your grasp of this technique is to practice more until you have more development in your voice and better muscle memory wrt breathing and have developed better control of your voice. it's literally only practice, but for some reason their grasp of their technique has not improved in years (arguably with the exception of mark who used to be more flimsy but has improved in the last few years). it is an extremely low standard but they haven't been able to clear it. it should only really take them a few months of further practice to improve more but it's been like that for years and they haven't improved.

@@ishathakor never said SM trained each and every vocalists they have to be on what, mariah carey or adele level. heck, maybe not even to taeyeon’s level. i was merely saying that we can see how SM cares a little more about vocals when you see the non-vocalists able to sing decently (not saying with particularly great technique) compared to other companies seemingly debuting just about anyone with a good face (who falls short on carrying a tune on the stage) that is to say, im not opposed to your take that they don’t receive as good as a vocal training as they could’ve. idk specifically for the vocalists, but i know the rappers focused more on enunciation and vocal projection rather than belting and whatnots

@@ishathakor I disagree with training equals great technique. an individual to be a true singer needs a good foundation while still a kid. Irene entered SM as 19 yrs old, but the improvement that we have seen from SM's care is how her approach is atleast relaxed and in tune with music, compared to idols from other companies who clearly do some out of tune singing. Singing is not for everyone, but the perks with SM's vocal training is that their idols are knowledgeable of vocals, and know their limits and what's decent.

Fair point and I think the best example is Jennie. People complained a lot about her inconcistence while performing, I know she recived a lot of hate but because of that when she started to have performances issues her fandom used all and everything to justify her and call rightfull critiques as hate. I really belive BP has been disbanded and general public and even official media has the concensus that she looked as she did not wanted to perform in some venues. Instead to be responsable and said she will improve, as Jisoo did at the beginig of their tour, she just keep doing things as it went because she knows her fans will find ways to forgive her and will fight whoever point her half done performances as a member of BP. I think it is sad.

This is why i come to conclusion that, I'm maybe not a "fan", and just someone that enjoy the song. I like kpop song, but i realize the talent is not as big as their fan made it out to be, to make me a fan

True. I've been into kpop for so long and i noticed that companies are way too focused on dancing and visuals rather than vocals. That's why mamamoo is worth stanning because all of them are great vocalists, have strong stage presence, great rappers, they write their own songs, they are the queens of live performance. I don't mind that their choreographies are not as complex as other ggs since i prefer when they save their breath to sing since they usually sing live. Plus most companies focus on dance to hide the fact that most members can't sing.

Same, i dont listen to mamamoo bc it's not a style for me (but i sometimes watch their lives) but dreamcatcher and bibi are like the only groups i keep listening to. Im legit addicted to watching DC's live performances haha.

​@@isateasaneikr! Deukae's live performances are always different and I'd even say better than the studio version! And BiBi is amazing

Mamamoo 🖤

I know right?! It’s so cool to see you here😊

@@aintnootherfan Thanks! I'm not so familiar with KPop so I usually refrain from commenting after watching, but I'm learning more from you about it.

That's so true especially when vocal coaches/singers react to especially BP and BTS. Like, it's blatantly obvious they don't have excellent Main vocalists at all, but they keep hyping up basic shit with heavy jargon and keep on reacting to average performances, Just for them Views !

Yep. No matter if they are vocal coaches, people in the music industry, just regular people interested in music, you'll have a hard time hearing anyone react to any Kpop group and pointing out the weak or sub par performances. Every group or soloist is AMAZING, FANTASTIC, LOVING IT, and then.... although they think so highly of the group/singer... they never respond again but instead try the next group/singer to see if that yields a better viewership, more clicks, more money There have been times that I see reactor respond to singers that even I (no music training whatsoever) think that it's weak, shrill, unstable, off key or even clearly lip synced and still hear the reactor heaping praise. Sad.

​@@chickfighter5587yep. Jungkook is not bad. But definitely not the best either.

I mean they have 3 legit strong vocalists (which is unheard of in kpop) the others are decent enough for their roles in the group. chanyeol and suho are on the level of the idols who get falsely praised as fantastic vocalists

​@@SyllightsI think Suho can definitely improve, he's almost there, just needs more practice

@@thesheassheis the musicals are helping him a LOT, he'll get there if he keeps doing them

@@SyllightsFALSELY PRAISED? Are you deaf? Have you even watched Suho's musicals?!! Dude, that man can outsing maiin vicals of most groups in a snap. Do you think the big musical producers just got him to star on huge musicals for nothing?! And Chanyeol is a main rapper but would defo pass as a main vocal.

@@rkdo9554 oh brother, I'm not even gonna engage with this keep thinking whatever you want ✌️

Yes stray kids don't seem to be afraid of criticism if it will help them grow and I'm hoping they do and I'll be there to see it. Plus I think I.N has improved on how he projects his voice when singing high keys now.

I absolutely agree with your comment. As a stay, I am well aware that a great portion of SKz discography is more rap oriented, but there are instances in which the members want to use their vocal abilities and in this area is where they are lacking. Ultimately, is JYPE's fault for not providing the resources to improve the vocal skills of their idols. How can Bangchan in like 7 years of training not given access to these resources? I'm thankful that some of the members have decided to take matters on their own, and I will be waiting to see and appreciate their improvements.

It’s funny that Bang Chan keeps going across the screen 😂 because he’s actually an amazing vocalist and shows it often in concerts and lives. The kind of music they make though is more hip hop and rock based pop. They have arguably the best rap line in K-pop so it makes sense they’d make them prominent. But those same rappers also great vocalists (although Changbin doesn’t use his singing voice much). Seungmin and I.N have both grown and I like their voices as well. They’re a solid team in my opinion. I cannot comment much on the girl groups as I find most of them a bit annoying (sorry if I’m upsetting people). Other than XG, I find the majority of them screechy, boring and kinda weak. Now, I’m a lot older than most K-pop fans so that probably has something to do with it. I relate way more to a Beyoncé or Rihanna type female vocalist and entertainer. ❤✌🏾

Watching their performances from Hellevator to S Class. You can see they did improve over the years but I think Bang Chan might be the member who didn't improve much. Lee Know, Seungmin, and IN did improve a lot. Felix was also a very weak vocalist now he is indeed slowly getting better and better. As a Hyunjin bias, I can see that his singing abilities also got better and I feel like he just recently found the style of singing/rapping that he excels at. Tho yes they aren't on the levels of a 2nd gen boy group vocally.

Likely chans instability onstage is due to choreography and nerves, and I agree with you! jeongin has improved so much and I’m so proud, though he still has a long way to go. Seungmin has been known to never miss a single day of filling out his practice log and I strive to have that much dedication as a vocalist, but again, he’s not perfect ^^ but what I love about skz is that they are actively working to improve and Chan himself likes to watch professionals react to their things and listens to their feedback :)

I see idols training for 3-10 years and their vocals are at best average

Yeah, i don't understand what's going on in the vocal room like why aren't you guys improving? 😂 Years of training and you're at THAT level?!!!

Some trainee actually dont have singing class at the company. They just dance for hours. So how can they improve by themselves😂

literally lmao. tbh it's the same with rap and dance. from the way idols talk about it you need to be a vocals dance and rap god to even stay in the company let alone debut but somehow we keep seeing people debut who are mediocre dancers and singers at best and can't rap and at worst they're bad at all of the above and hanging on for dear life even when asked to sing extremely simple lines that should be in their comfort zone (like, the notes are the same as the range they use when speaking). genuinely we should be seeing a bunch of insanely skilled people debuting constantly. the best vocalist in a group should be legitimately really good but most of the time they end up ranging from okay to bad. all rounders should be people who have genuine skill in dance vocals and rap not just someone who dances and who sang a few lines and also rapped a verse one time. we should be blown away by the sheer hard work and talent and skill but instead every once in while you get a legitimate standout (like suga in rap or wendy in vocals or dino in dance etc) and most people are okay to terrible at everything

Literally like you trained years for THAT? What were they doing all those time

companies can’t even care about their idols’ hair, what vocals are you talking about?

@@bebepak7811 hahaha true :D

@bighit leave Jimin alone I beegggg, no more high notes😭😭

Like EXOs leave high note duty to Chen but he can reach the high notes easily. It's very natural and not strained.

Nailed it ! Also if you only can scream High Notes like Yuju and cannot do balanced singing with emotions, you're already a top Vocalist according to k-pop stans. SMH !

​@@chickfighter5587interesting you mentioned Yuju while her being one of the most technically developed 3rd generation vocalists...

​​@@chickfighter5587Yuju has had some really good belting moments in her peak era (the single resonant F5 she once achieved still gives me chills), it's a shame she regressed because of her being so pushed to her limit by the company without caring about her vocal health.

@@chickfighter5587 Yuju was amazing technique wise tho. ( still is but ig she regressed a little )

High notes nowadays are just a random scream and that's the "slay" moment from someone's bias 😭

Are aespa good or bad i domt get it.

@@ajmosutra7667 aespa are good, not outstanding but far better off than most groups. and nmixx is even better, but theyre not perfect either

​​​@@shinigagamimiexactly, they're fulfilling what should be expected in vocal groups, being aware of vocal technique and valuing it in practice. But saying that they're the best thing to graze the earth is just ignorant.

@@ajmosutra7667 good in comparison to other groups, but within sm girl groups they have the weakest vocal line.

@@fionn9816 But as a whole group their probably one of the best in sm.

omfg god someone who doesnt praise jisoo for her vocals. "but she had a deep and husky voice yadda yadda-" no her voice is jus plain ol terrible. i dont understand how people listen to her two solo songs.

​@@tastytoenails3629 her solo song is not even that good as some people claim to be. when I listened for the first time I thought that was a song produced by an amateur trying to be popular in tiktok.

I think Jisoo has an interesting voice that COULD sound good if she had proper training. It makes you wonder what the hell they did in training if they’re this bad.

Damn rude as hell lol

To be fair, I do think Jisoo has a nice vocal color but yeah, she's so noticeably throaty. There was even this video of her singing in a French event and she was so off-key and obviously throaty. But you see almost all comments that it was the only time she messed up and it was only a few seconds. I was like, nah she sounds like her throat was about to break.

Often, if you don't have a clear lead singer - it's because each member is stronger collectively than solo. For example, huge Spice Girls fan. Save for Mel C, who could sing and dance- the other girls had weaknesses (Emma was the second best vocalist, good dancer, then Mel B who also excelled with performances, Geri couldn't sing nor dance but had a unique sounding voice and lyric writing talent, Victoria was a brilliant dancer and her backing vocals carry so many of their songs. They were stronger as a unit, and their weaknesses less obvious when they were all together! The minute they go solo you can see the cracks...

@@JaiProdz I‘d agree with this, I think RV is actually similar to them in this case

Little Mix is that kind of group where they all can carry a song alone with their vocals but when they come together they create some of the best harmonies. Like seriously, they are what actaul vocalists are. And they can sing and dance live at the same time without sounding off-key or shaky, while do eventually get ouf of breath, they have always proven their vocal abilities

I feel like in the west, girl groups use SO MUCH power and amazing vocal skills. I feel as if there was a time where kpop used to be so similar and now it's just not the same. I still like it, but some songs just lack so much vocal ability!

​@@jxstadri this is what some kpop groups want to be! No hate just saying this is what I would like to see nowadays

Hard on the itzy part sometimes its just straight up screaming

That part was just straight up screechy and loud, I didn't get godly high notes from it...

You're right with itzy 😅

same! i hate position less group bc at the end of the day it just feels like no one particularly stand out in a field (ive, lssrfm, nwjns) or they’re all mediocre. idk how it became the trend but it sucks

you described all my thoughts. I’d better stan group without all-rounders, but group, where everyone has a certain position and at least the best at something one.

There's pretty obvious leaders in each talent field in the groups you mentioned though. Txt very much treats Taehyun as the main vocal while Yeonjun as both main rapper and dancer, while Enhypen treats Heeseung as main vocal and Niki as main dancer (they don't really rap). Their more promoted as "jacks of all trades, masters of none" groups, like teams of Jungkooks (well, they both are masters of dance though, so ig there is some focus?). I think a better example would be Loona, they're vocals were definitely overestimated by both fans and their producers. Heejin, Kim Lip, Jinsoul and even maybe even Yves are given close to the same treatment as Chuu and even better treatment than Haseul in terms of distribution of vocally challenging parts. They are def promoted as a "vocal group" or a "group of main vocalists" when they're really not

Totally agree. The new stans think a group without positions automatically mean they're all all-rounders when in reality, it just means none of them particularly stands out at anything & probably are just a team of glorified dancers, with unrealistic visuals ofcourse. ✨

@@parsachoudhury6727 agree! i think ni-ki is one of the better dancers of the 4th gen and heeseung is a pretty consistent main vocalist if we compare to a lot of other 4th gen bgs but hybe sort of treats them as more of a “all rounder group” when their more really good dancers with alright to good vocal performances. the same can go for txt but i don’t think any of the members stand out to me in talent wise except taehyun and i don’t really see any very present strengths in the group as a whole (i mean like all five members aren’t extremely good dancers or extremely good vocalists)

Adele isn’t even that good… the type of music she makes just makes her seem better than she is

@@CleverUsername69420 EXACLTY, Adele’s technique isn’t really that good…I think he has a video essay on it as well!!

Beyonce is a top 10 vocalist if all time, dont get it twisted. Full mastery if all her register and like 4 or 5 octaves, she is one of the best of all time.

Her tone, and musicality is also insane + her voice just gets better while other vocalist lose it, she still abble to hit high notes, while going even lower than before. Her breath control is insane, just watched the heated perfomances

@@lucasb9285 my point wasn’t shade to any of the artists mentioned. It’s that if you make the argument that kpop vocalists are better than pop vocalists are often bc ppl won’t bother to look at anyone but the most mainstream.

I'm a once and I praise her for being the average in k-pop, but when they say "she must be eating CDs" or something like that...I mean, there's performances she clearly got off key, her musicality and her vibrato was off, and people still praise like it's freaking Patti Labelle.

I mean there's a reason why all 3 of them fall into the average/standard tier of KVA, lol Sure you wouldn't really be belting like crazy in the 5th octave like their (sopranos and not really like Seulgi as she gets quite stuck passing the 4th) but a soprano should be doing about the same if not similar things as them with a coach

might as well mention ningning tbh since shes not that much better than winter and jihyo

@@kledi3817 she's not much better but there's still a notable difference

Definitely this. I'm in musical theatre, started last year. I have classmates who started barely being able to be back up chorus, but after a year you can hear them going for a full solo and they sound good and stable! Seriously, this year I've been shocked by some of my classmates! You can grow SO MUCH in just a year of consistent trainning

This reminds me of that Korean thread titled "Out of all the trainees why Sakura?" Even knetz were questioning why they let her debut again in Lesserafim despite her lack of talent.

even though yes, she wasn’t a good vocalist, she was already famous before the show started

She is popular and progresses in dance. She is a great performer and does not have that much of lines so I think it is okay

@@terra5857 that has nothing to do with talent it shouldn't matter if she was popular before.

@@gabdongipark Yeah but anyone can develop dance skills, it's not like she's the best dancer in the group she is known for her visuals whereas Yunjin is known for her vocals. You want members who are known for their talent not visuals. Saying she's popular is a stupid excuse to why she got in, and doesn't make up for a lack of talent.

Idol now prioritize visual mooore than skill. Look what happen with sohee riize, he got so muuuch hate from knetz just bcause he dont suit kbs

I wanna add an asterisk to that: if the idol in question is a good rapper, it's more than excusable for them to not be a decent vocalist. Idol roles are often split into rappers and singers (since everyone has to dance). Rappers don't need to be good vocalists if they're good at their main job, just like how vocalists obviously don't need to be good rappers. And if you happen to be good at both you're quite a real gem.

and the excuses that their fans made up to protect their idols' terrible performances. "oh he was sick that day" or "she was nervous performing by herself." dude, Jimin sang badly in most of his performances throughout his entire career. is he always sick? and your girl Jennie has debuted for almost a decade, when will she stop being nervous? i am not tired of idols i am tired of fans.

Danielle sang live though like you could literally hear her breathing. I think her problem is projecting

Like not even any hate, cuz they were both in top 5 of Spotify wrapped for 2022. However SZA too often sounds out of breath and overly nasal which is most present when she performs “blind” live. Billie on the other hand shows signs of jaw tension when she sings and strain, both of which can be seen in her live performance of “The 30th.” That and she’s also stated she hasn’t been able to sing the high note (I think it’s a G4?) in “When The Party’s Over” in years. I love both but those are such obvious signs of a lack of technique, I don’t even think SZA has vibrato.

@@AntonyN sza has vibrato but it’s mostly present in her earlier work

SZA OVER HALLE??? OH NAHHH

There are a lot more better vocalists in the western music industry then the Kpop industry. Most likely because Kpop would rather have someone who is physically attractive while in the western industry talent and vocals are more important then appearance

tbh some of the good vocalists in the west still get promoted to legendary status when they are really not comparable (ariana is an example. she's definitely good but she's no mariah carey). but yeah generally western fans are content with "she can sing" and don't have to justify it with she eats cds for breakfast and she's a legend and she's one of the best vocalists of the generation

Trueee exactly what i thought ㅠㅠ

That's because she is also a top visual. If she wasn't pretty, no one would have given her any attention despite her skill.

@@heech3910 she's one of the top female vocalists of all time, what are you waffling about

@@finnlinnsone yeah exactly but luna is actually a better singer than her, but she's not the most popular member of f(x), krystal is.

Yeah I know one kpop idol who said this, and it didn't make much sense to me. I don't see how having proper vocal training would get rid of your singing style.

Were those idols complaining about vocal training in general, or were they complaining about the specific kind of vocal training that was provided to them as trainees? Great vocal training should not take out your personality, but maybe they were complaining about vocal training whose purpose is to get the trainees to fit the style that the company wants.

​@@mayday8366 because it's usually not as proper as we thought and the techniques used was geared to make a 'label-distinctive' sound.

that also speaks to a misunderstanding of vocal technique. if anything, having better technique means you can put more personality in your voice. and you can do it without hurting your voice. if you listen to people who are very good or great vocalists, they don't all sound the same at all. like whitney and mariah are both really good vocalists but they do very different things with their voices and that's because their great technique allows them to do those things. even at a lower level when we're just talking about people who are decent or good vocalists, there is so much variety to be found. the little mix girls are at relatively similar levels (the relatively is doing a bit of heavy lifting there lol) but they still have very distinct sounds and styles. and it's because they have that solid technique, not despite it.

That makes me think of the vocal training Lovelyz received; I watched some of their pre-debut videos and there was one where they were scolded in practice for sounding too unique. The label’s goal was for them to have a uniform sound in the group, so it would be easier to mix and produce their songs.

Wendy is also better than most of 2nd and 1st gen too

sometimes i feel like ningning is just nervous to belt out her parts, that's why she uses falsetto. I really wish she overcome her nerves eventually because she's such a total package

@@lankyimnida595 She is. She is afraid to sing live as well.

@@lankyimnida595 she lacks confidence which might block her improvement

@@mooblink4ever899 she might be afraid to sing live bcs SM standard for main vocalist is so high. She has so much potential and maybe it takes long time to be as great as her seniors (Taeyeon, Wendy, Lina etc.), but still the result is there if she's brave and keeps improving.

BTS and BP paved the way for rap & dance-focused trend

I was about to write something very similar. I got into KPOP in 2014 right near the shift and discovered so many talented, strong vocalists from many groups. Dance/performance and looks were still important but vocals seemed to have a lot of impact. Then towards 2016, EDM and then Hip-Hop started to become integrated in more KPOP songs and vocals kind of took a backseat. I'm very thankful I got into KPOP when I did because I don't know if I would have been into it as much later. I feel that the vocals add a lot of emotion and dynamics to the music that is kind of missing in a lot of KPOP today. I can still appreciate some of the talent and artistry that goes into 4th gen groups, but I miss the times before the "shift."

i got into kpop in 2015 and, since then, the standard for singing has reached rock bottom 💀

@@forjuria5111 Big Bang, 2NE1, and even older SM groups like Super Junior and Shinee (moreso on the dance-focused end) paved the way for them. There would be no BTS or BlackPink without the second generation k-pop groups. And of course, 1st gen groups like H.O.T as well. But Big Bang and 2NE1 were the main groups to push hip-hop/rap focused music and girl crush concepts. This is why there were so many hip-hop/rap focused groups created in the 3rd generation, including BTS and BlackPink. This music appeals more to the western ear, in general. I would always hear 2NE1 'I Am the Best' in commercials here in the U.S. This is why they started creating so many hip-hop/rap focused groups in the 3rd generation, including BTS and BlackPink. To have more international appeal, and in turn, make even more money. At the end of the day, most k-pop fans these days care more about how attractive the members are than their actual talent. But hey. I'm not gonna judge if that's what brings them joy.

Honestly speaking, with I.N, I see it as him singing songs that are not suited to his voice. He's pretty damn good when he does trot covers, whether they be a legit performance or just a joke to entertain the members. Trot singing is his forte, whereas if you told Seungmin or Han to sing a trot song, they wouldn't have that same ability. He's definitely improved to match the style that skz is going for, and it's becoming clearer.

@@jaimeglen7527 he’s improved so much since debut it’s actually crazy, he was probably at Felix and Hyunjin’s level during their first year or two and now he’s almost at the level of their current main vocalist.

@@DeeDeeDeeeee he really is doing great, I'm looking forward to how far he can go!

i.n has definitely worked on his vocals and its unfair of the video creator to use a clip from 2021, but he's still underdeveloped. honestly all of skz are singing way above their vocal capability, particularly han and seungmin. 5 star is a great album but songs like dlc are ruined by their shouty vocals. the truth is seungmin and han aren't all that developed themselves that's why they're not that far off from i.n. actually im pretty sure i.n has shown a bit more support than han recently. lee know is getting better as well. and ofc the forgotten vocalist chan just doesn't work on his vocals at all. he should be the best vocalist in the group by now. he's the only one with any chest strength in dlc.

@@null6955 I’d say Seungmin and Han are around Rosé/Jungkook vocally which while isn’t amazing, definitely isn’t what I would consider “underdeveloped”. Chan and Jisoo are some vocalists I would consider as underdeveloped. I also agree that Chan’s vocal decline is very frustrating, he had so much potential vocally during debut but he’s gotten so nasal and closed it sucks that he doesn’t work on it.

i somewhat agree but I think it depends, if your someone like RM, Suga, changbin, soyeon and many other great rappers you don't really need to know how to sing but it's definetly important to have either good vocals or good rapping.

They suddenly get nervous and have anxiety attacks every time near the mic, and pretend there's something wrong with their in-ear pieces

I agree with most of what u said. Despite having a lot of technique issues, is my #1 example of an effective main vocalist in the sense that they rlly make and define the sound the group's music. I also have more fun listening to her bcuz she's more vocally ambitious, both live an in the studio. You can rlly feel the passion wen she sings. YooHyeon beats her out in pure technique but she can be boring to listen to usually. It often feels like she's singing a vocal exercise, not an actual song, if u get what I mean.

@@mingisfixon6452 I still can't tell when yoohyeon is singing though. Her voice blends in with siyeon and sua's

This!

Helpp siyeon is actually better than yoohyeon now 😭 shes C-

@@subliminal5543 that’s a big fat lie. Siyeon is nowhere as good as yoohyeon

When did you last listen to him singing live? In 2015?

Speaking facts 👍🏻👍🏻 idk why some people are so obsessed with displaying their favs as”vocal kings” “ vocal queens” “ all rounders” when they aren’t even close

Bruh people say he's better than Baekhyun 😭 the delusion

@@antidave How can he be?

Yup, I didn't really enjoy his solo songs because of how sharp he was

Ningning aespa doing many live vocal right now, she got her confidence back. Watch her in governors ball and in it's live she singging solo perfectly, she is better than many main vocalist outthere, i guest she can be B- vocalist in 1 or 2 years.

Ning2 performed live without backtrack more than the whole of XG and XG also used the same auto tuned pre recorded vocal but I see you’re THAT type of stan…

@@subliminal5543 my fav Juria XG always performs live singing and she is able to sing acapella without backtrack and even music kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fMpgfbN3rqiwm6s.html

​@@Aura-xp3gjI'm not doubting Ning Ning's vocals, but even the It's Live performances are autotuned

bruh even the killing voice vids are autotuned, massacred my girl taeyeon and made her sound so processed 😔 her behind the scenes vid is way better sounding

don't forget joy she's not good either

Lol One of the reasons why I find reveluvs one of the more annoying fandoms is because of inflated ego or superiority complex. They be like "Joy/Irene/Yeri can be main vocalist in other groups" and they mostly mean TWICE. I understand Seulgi even though she's no Wendy but Joy is such a reach. Joy is a MUCH weaker vocalist than 2yeon so how will she be a main vocalist in Twice? It's only possible if that group is very weak vocally like everglow or stay-c.

⁠@@yamatonadeshiko567 the fact that reveluvs have managed to manipulate Kpop fans into thinking rv is as good as mamamoo, exo etc is honestly amazing. It’s kinda like gfriend (in rv’s case wendy) where yuju MAJORELY carried their vocals and yet gfriend was known as a ‘vocal group’. I think because RV are from SM they assume they’re much vocally better when joy ,yeri and Irene are the average underdeveloped vocalists.

The thing is even a lot of her stans tired and sick of this behavior especially when reveluvs started fanwar against other fandoms and of course undoubtedly she'll gets dragged here and there, called names and people will throw those nasty injury jokes. Like yeah all of them are main vocalists but when comes to fanwar suddenly it's only Wendy huh 🤣. They even dare to downplaying her contribution to the group because they sure just love to spreads the all of them are main vocalists propaganda. Funny enough if you try to praise Wendy for her dancing or other things here comes the other subfandoms getting angry why are her stans praising her with their faves assigned position 💀

​@@munchkin9006that's very similar to NCT, and i really hate that as an NCTzen. Fandom will claim that even the tenth best singer could be a main vocalist in other groups. They will argue who's the best main vocalist, and downplay the true main vocalist, which is Taeil, just because he's the least popular member. But when they get involved in fanwars, usually armys, They will only use him and his videos in the argument. 🤧

They are very good indeed

people really need to take into account that these professionals and reaction accounts will NOT give their genuine opinion on a popular group/idol due to fear of negative backlash or for clout. like I see blinks use "Well professionals say Rosé is an amazing vocalist" not accepting that blinks are NOTORIOUS for taking anything other than praise as a huge insult and almost none of them will straight up say "her techniques are awful, she needs proper training" unless they want their account blasted with hate.

It feels hella disrespectful to bring Sohyang into a conversation with this group of people because her voice LITERALLY gives angels their wings!!! But I understand your point.

​@@AnnaBell033 I wouldn't say "disrespect" when they got park Hyoshin in that group of people, he's right up there wth sohyang imo

​@@AnnaBell033 it's not disrespectful to compare sohyang to people who are also remarkable vocalists. is sohyang the best of this group? i think so. but at that level there are only a handful of people you're even comparable to so putting her in this list is reasonable. and she's also with other very accomplished vocalists. it's not like we're comparing her to rose from blackpink.

Actually lily, sullyeon and heawon are the most popular members in the group. Yes lily is the main vocalist but haewon and sullyeon is also as much as capable strong vocalist as well especially Sullyeon considering she is a visual. I would say that these three are considered to be the vocal line which is pretty rare for groups nowadays.

Jpop (not including the idol industry because I don't know about it) and J rock are so good in live concerts.

SHINee's back! Love their concerts and live stages!

The vocalist you are talking about debuted in a jpop group at the age of 14, formed his band at 17, his mom and dad are both known singers in japan, even his brother is a vocalist. And if i don't remember wrong he is 35 years old. He's been doing this for over 20 years and i don't think we can compare him to kpop idols who don't even train to be vocalists at this point of kpop industry. Most of the companies just search for pretty looking people, teach them how to dance then debut. And this has to change or we won't have great vocalists in this industry anymore.

Been to my own share of One Ok Rock concerts, Taka is amazing. He's always effortless, his voice is healthy when performing and that's on top of the fact that my dude is legitimately running, jumping and spinning nonstop on stage. I wouldn't even be surprised if he somehow cartwheeled while belting to The Beginning and doing both flawlessly.

taka built diff bro

Autotune on live vocals is a standard now. But Choi Jongho from Ateez has several lives where he’s singing karaoke for a live and his vocals are absolutely in tune and beautiful. His karaoke version of his OST Gravity is just as good as his studio version.

i genuinely believe it’s 80% or even 95% the company’s fault. even if idols saw kpop as a easy money-grabbing job, if company had stricter standard and better training they wouldn’t be so bad

@@gyal7892 i couldn't agree more with u

⁠​⁠@@gyal7892 Definitely. Companies seems hesitant to invest in their idols skills because they know the public will eat it up either way. It seems like most let their idols get up to whatever they choose to, which is not supervised by coaches but rather each other, which is why trainees often dance for upwards of 7 hours a day because there’s nothing else to do and vocally training with no guidance is troublesome and dangerous. Paired with the harsh diets, there’s little room for proper development. But I find it interesting how prior generations had decent vocalists but in the 4th generation people declare anyone to be a ‘vocal king/queen’. But it’s definitely the companies fault for most of it

exactly. i think he really stand out in BTS and elsewhere as well. and he’s so stable, always singing smoothly even though he’s in the middle of an intense choreo. he has much versatility too, he can sing raspy and he can sing clean. also he has perfect pitch!

for that reason I really like watching encore stages.

@@polyanagulaespecially the mr moved

Yeah i believe vocal tiers are mostly made to rank Pop and RnB vocalists since they are more focused on mixing/belting; it wouldn't really work with Classical (mostly female) vocalists who rely more on their Head voice. But i think it could do an okay job at assessing the level of a Rock vocalist too, despite the obvious stylistic differences they still focus more on developing their belting.

@@Sylvaincks Yeah it's annoying when people trashing on Siyeon vocal when she's clearly a Rock vocalist in a KPop group that focus mainly on rock. I mean who cares? Siyeon does what she does at best

When SNSD was active, the most popular was Yoona. Also before learning EXO members’ names, I knew of other members way before I learned of Baekhyun like Kai, Kris, Sehun and D.O

@@jimmycronino. Yoona isnt the only one. Both her and Taeyeon are actually the most popular. Taeyeon is very known in korea ever since their debut with her ost, voices, bonus cute face and personality before. Taeyeon was also the most popular among the fandom of SNSD. Yoona was more popular among the public but also is Taeyeon.

​@jimmycroni Chanyeol, Baekhyun and Sehun are the most popular

Because he DOES have skill, plus he’s probably the most stable one after seungmin and han so that’s why but fun fact he can’t support😭 dude is just talented like that, imagine what he could achieve if he got the same vocal coach as vocalracha and Lee know

@@enricolivi8890 yes that is why I don’t understand what the video said about Chan. For me he is such a great singer. Not Beyonce level we can all agree on that but still a pretty good one !

​@@lyneytb9118although he is one of the best in the group, he is still lackluster vocally.

@@acorn9134why lackluster? have you heard him sing live? Stray Kids concert is all live singing and it’s amazing. Just search for clips on my channel.

Me 2

You think Wendy is overrated? When literally people praise jungkook, seulgi, Jihyo, nayeon, Ning, winter, sullyoon, heesung, rosé, yunjin etc. like they're some vocal beasts?😅

@@averyatwell95 heavy on yunjin and ji actually

​@Ofra Cohen I mean if you compare her to the current slate of Western Main Pop Girls she is better than all off them with her only competition being Ariana Grande. Wendy wasn't even the best Vocalist out of 3rd Gen but what makes her stand out is the fact that she was arguably the best Vocalist from an extremely popular group. And the fact that she genuinely is technically leaps and bounds above the other groups Main Vocalists that are as renowned or even more so (ex. Jungkook, Rosé, Jihyo).

I think Wendy did regress after 16. I remember she supported a c6 there. After that we haven't really seen Wendy going into her whistle register again, so I think her range did go down.

@@temmoali7747 i mean no red velvet songs require whistle notes so i think she just doesn't use it often

Yup. Totally the Kpop industry in general. Not really any much to expect because Kpop had always been heavily reliant on presentation..

but aespa winter is selected 😍😍😍😍

We also Have Taeyeon and Hyolyn

Sehun isn't the most popular one? And Chanyeol and Lay?

@@a.a.6789 they are very popular too. But among non fans & general kpop stans, Baekhyun & Kai are definitely more popular.

Literally thought this too!!

Literally thought this too!!

It's just her tone☠️