Throne of the Tides should have been a D tier because it is under the C

100% agree with Dorki. Bad camera angles are the difference between enjoying a dungeon and not. Not being able to see the dungeon, your own character, your teammates, enemies....its not enjoyable. Its like playing a game in 240p. And taking avoidable damage and/or dying doesnt feel deserved because you're staring half at the staff on your character's back and half at the inside of a mobs body. I prefer to see the game I'm playing if at all possible lol

Came for the vibes with dorki, max, growl, drat, was not disappointed. Also it had that old dude that sits on his porch yelling about everything possible.

It's interesting that you guys love all the dungeons that low 20's healers hate. High enough for those challenging bosses to be truly hard to heal, but not high enough for DPS to know how to press defensives properly. The amount of times I had DPS not pressing their walls until after the damage event, reacting to getting low, in keys like AA or HoV... made me hate healing those.

Algathar Academy got hard carried by the tree boss area.

BFA s3 affix was the most fun ever. The ability to enter Shadowrealm and skip whatever you wanted. Created many fun diverse routes. also Twilight dev was rly fun

Ok but the argument about shadowmoon being a free key upgrade can be made about underrot too tho.

this tier list is absolutely fucking cooked holy shit

I was pugging top 1% of keys really early in the season as Rdru. And pugs in algathar would basically say “let’s hope this Druid can get us through vexamus”

Ruby Life Pools was turbo-ass, weird ranking

Something finally made you give up the cataclysm mouse

Not that anyone is reading this, but Galakrond's Fall is kinda nice, because even if you fail it, you feel like you could do better. The dificultyness in it feels achievable. Unlike Everbloom or DHT. Where you just hope for the best the whole run

I think this video perfectly portrays the difference between casual players and top end players.

I know this is older, but it’s kinda weird that they mention a dungeon being linear is bad but also say “you have to go the right way” in things like brackenhide? Is it just the _idea_ of non-linearity that’s wanted?

Eh ? Azure vault A ? That thing was a living nightmare and i really hope anything similar doesnt happen again

Obviously none of them healed Nokhud as a Prevoker. Where your dps is all the way the fuck in Antarctica on the 2nd boss, so none of your spells reach them and your aoe spells only hit half the party. And then people getting one shot by the adds on the last boss. C Tier dungeon at best.

Azure vault was fun for competent groups that knew how to capitalize on the flexibility. I can confirm that around the +20 range it was one of the least fun dungeons out there.

Algathar bird boss might be the worst boss this season, it was broken in like 7 different ways. The bleed being cauterized was dumb, the fire swirlies having terrible visuals was annoying, the ball things would bug out a lot, mages could infinitely kite the boss, los'ing the screech, etc. No clue how that boss didnt just get its numbers gutted to make it free if they werent going to bother fixing it at all

Chains in Neltharus were hella fun, just like the weapons in NW... I really like dungeon mechanics enabling huge pulls in very uncoordinated pugs

Okay cool so we got a comp group tier list but can we get a tier list for pugs because this is not it lol

As a scrub player, i enjoy listening to the takes on the higher keys. I wont experience them but dig listening to the opinions over the seasons.

My fury warrior brain has some differences: Rise is great, constant cleaves, first room is pog, sand room is a constant stream of reasonable mobs, and cones feel satisfying to bait on multiple bosses. Courser as a possible drop is fun, and in the 43 Rises I spammed in a row for Gorehowl I found myself enjoying it more and more. Still my favorite S3 high key to do, as long as people have just the smallest of IQs to manage baiting cones on tyr/battlefield WM is terrible. Waiting the 2 seconds for sisters to swap eyes is cringe. Second boss can just choose to ruin a specific target repeatedly. You can't spell reflect Lord Waycrest's dot because it pops on him, which then pops on everyone in melee. Waiting for the tank to pull groups out into the courtyard is a snoozer, and the hallways are terrible for storming, sanguine, etc if you don't, so you *have* to. Throne is awesome. Getting targetted by every Sentinel pack by Crushing Depths and spell reflecting a 1.6m dot onto the enemy is pure dopamine. Third boss has some wonky scares with flame shocks and totems but the dungeon as a whole is fine. Atal'Dazar is my most feast or famine dungeon. The pulls feel great as a dps but there's so many required interrupts and protection bubbles. Can't spell reflect hex or, once again, it'll pop on people. Final boss has a satisfying spell reflect but you have to get to the very end of the dungeon to learn if people know how to deal with spiders or else your key is insta-bricked. Neltharus is one of my least favorite just because everything is the same color. Remember when the Lost Dwarves trinket active was nigh indistinguishable from the trillions of AoE on the ground in neltharus? The mechanics are genuinely fun it's just got that D4 clarity issue in the dungeon where everything is the same color.

As a Brewmaster, every dungeon felt like D tier 🤣

As an entirely soloplayer who pugs, watching this video has really shown me that people who play in comps and in groups have entirely different opinions on dungeons. Maybe the playerbase gets better in the higher end at like 27+ but as someone more casual who only does 23-26 range, seeing dungeons that give me literal PTSD from pugging being placed so high is shocking. You're telling me that people don't die to the last 2 bosses on halls of valor, any boss of ruby, 2nd and 3rd for Underrot??? (And don't get me started on Murozonds Rise) That people actually do mechanics ?? That's crazy, maybe I need to find a group to play with 💀

I dont get the shadowmoon hate, yeah theres one bad boss so what?

how the fuck do people not absolutely hate the second boss of underrot, that boss ruined that dungeon for me in bfa and still did this time

I feel like I'm the only person that dislikes underrot. I enjoyed it in bfa because I only played that last season and the pilar skips were a ton of fun but I was only doing like 18-20 as it was my first time playing in 6+ years. In season two I think I had everything at 25 or higher but underrot was only a 22 or 23 it was so bad. Everyone I ran with was bad at worms, over slapping kicks, and the 2nd boss bricked so many runs. Also BH had to be my favorite one this expansion but only if you had the god comp or something close to it. So many different things you could do and so much trash you would pull you could do or skips you could do and non required a shroud. Tho you did need a priest or the enjoyment was bricked.

It's interesting hearing Jdotb call snapping a "mechanic" rather than an "exploit"

Insight for S2: From someone who does light pushing, but mostly farms weekly 20s, the start of the season and god comp part was a huge issue for those types of keys. They were much togher then they ever needed to be for non-god comp groups. Anyone who was the guilds Warlock, Rogue, any other healer, non bear tank and other things was so bad. It was infinitely tougher to do then any other season by alot. I rerolled guardian cause it was the nearly the only tank being invited.

Interesting to see such a different perspective. Absolutely hated Underrot in S2. That area around second boss was so painful. Also I don't get why are they asking for more mobs that don't do anything. If they don't do anything whats the point? Take a pen and draw more mobs on your monitor then.

Dragonflight Season 1 was my first season doing both keys and raids, I will say I was utterly terrible at both the game and my class (enhance shammy.) Personally I thought Nokhund, Azure Vault and Temple were giga swamp ass, although I would love to revisit those dungeons with my improved knowledge and skill.

RLP and AV started as HARD F's then turned into an easy S+imo

One thing I will say, is I hated going to Azure Vault. And the only reason is bc there would always be someone that just never decided to learn the mechanics of it every. single. time. I didn't run high keys that season, but people would butt pull, tank not have the right route. It was bad almost every time.

disclaimer this whole tier list is coming from the perspective of people who run top 1% keys with full premades 90% of the time .

As a tank, I LOVED Nelth Lair...Guardian MT, loved it in Legion, Loved it when it was brought back this xpac.

Young Dip hit that skip, stay bricked - never give up

Great podcast. As this is now a thing that happens consistently - can we get some better volume levels between all the mics.

Algeth'ar was the ultimate noob detector. I would calculate the probability of timing the key, based on the number of players that took the 5% vers buff.

I think its time to bring someone who pug keys, the fact that you consider normal the scaling of the last boss in Nokhud is insane, that Boss was a pug serial killer wasting al lyour time (23-25ish)

Jdotb on point again with the scaling

The fact Thundering was so bad of an affix that they just gave up on seasonal affixes entirely, after shadowlands season 3 and 4 were both absolute bangers.

I once got gripped into storming on the last boss of nokhud and it was the worst

Ranking Underrot S tier was the biggest sin of 2024

Chat is high - Academy is S tier.

max thinking that his pugging 25-28s is the same experience as pugging as a whole kept triggering me lol, ur "pugging" in a group where everyone has like 3300+ io. not even remotely close to pugging 15-20s

Not sure what you guys are cooking with Halls of Valor in A tier let alone same tier as Algethar! WTF. Halls of Valor was melee unfriendly, way too much running, way too much RP. Comparing it to Algethar is blasphemy.

I will say Nelth's Lair was fun, but only if you were a Warrior. So many reflects. I love spell reflect ❤

I feel like all the traveling and portal stuff and dungeons would just result in a slightly shorter timer if they weren’t in there. Maybe that’s a cope but designwise blizzard has to be thinking about the fact that doing that travel takes time, and therefore that incrementally moves up the timer fortunate to the travel time time

Season 4 in its own Turbo Ass tier

Neltharus was especially bad because the spear boss (3rd usually) would break ALL the time when someone dies.

glad JB was included in this, seems rare he ever has an L take

Underrot in S is a crime againts humanity

Algethar is gonna be super hated if it comes back - doing Crawth without a preservation is gonna suck so hard.

Algethar and Brackenhide ABSOLUTE s tier. Halls of infusion, court of stars and ShadowMoon burial ground poopoo tier

I absolutely love platforming aspects of the game / dungeons like the rise obstacle, i wish there were more

Rise + Fall is definitely the worst mega-dungeon to come out since they became a thing in legion, both in terms of fun and vibes

Court in C is wild. That place was awesome!

my top timed key currently is fall..... we had 30 deaths..... and still almsot 2x'd it. that key is so fucking free it's crazy when it doesn't get timed.

Academy is straight up goated. Worst case scenario it's a top three lol.

Oh wait did Growl know that Resto Shaman could also reveal the imposter in Court of Stars?

wish i had this template to do myself

nokhud was kinda good, my main gripe is that that key felt like 90% of failures you didnt even know if it was a fail until the very end really. and sometimes that last boss just fucked someone randomly. waycrest should be S tier, the m+ fixes over the years have made it so great to me. like no sanguine in waycrest is awesome lol.

Temple of the Jade Serpent was a banger as a prot paladin. You also needed spriest and it was fine.

link the tierlist so we can make our own for discord arguments please

Nokhud Offensive being in B tier instead of F or D tier instantly loses them credibility. The Dragonflight dungeon pool aside from Algethar's and Azure Vault is probably the worst since M+ came out in Legion.

It's weird that they seem to rate dungeons based on if **** one shot them or not while me a casual player doing 24-25 keys and pugging healers i would rate dungeons based on if the pug healer can heal the rot damage or not (with me helping him with my CDs and pot). Everbloom would have been much lower in my ranking. I tried to like this dungeon but finding a pug healer able to heal the rot damage in this dungeon is super hard. I've timed both Murozond and TotT in 24 and i feel like i could time them in 25 (given the opportunity) yet i'm still stuck in 23 for Everbloom despite many attempts to time it in a 24 just because the pug healer can't heal the rot damage and there's too many interrupts to do and i'm a range so i can't help much on that.

thats why M+ is in state as it is Top 0.1% players sheeting on dungeons where 90% ppl love them

they just rank it to what ever the first person throws out...

Aesthetically, I love Halls of Infusion. Anything that reminds me of Ulduar or Throne of Thunder gets a thumbs up from me. As for M+, I think I did like an 8 of these dungeon once in that season (after returning to the game because shadowlands) and for whatever reason my group couldn't los behind the ice blocks for shit! I'd drop the hell outta Underrot cause I practically lived in there during BFA

I would love to see this ranking but at 20s level

The Arcway from Legion was better than CoS imo. Last boss was hard but the dungeon its self was more interesting.

As a +15 PUG tank... Vortex, freehold, Waycrest are S tier

fall is one of my favorite keys

jb had the best takes this whole dungeon but people love hating

I mean you love Everbloom if you're playing VDH and Prot Paladin all day. Do it on another tank that can't trivialize the Magic Damage or DreadPetal damage amp/slow. Then it's an absolute D tier dungeon.

Juggernauts should have twice the CD on their jump .

Waycrest manor is the biggest upset for me on this list. The dungeon is so much easier if you play mage or even 2x mage, and that shouldn't be the case. for me there's too much movement on the bosses/curse/interupts, it's limited what comps you can bring on 26+

I think one of the biggest strengths of HoV is just how dominant the bosses are, they're all incredibly memorable and fun to play. I don't even mind them being massively overtuned at the start, I'm still playing fun bosses.

I'd love to have gone back and done season 1 without all the garbage affixes. Thundering, quaking and explosive made a lot of dungeons toxic for overlapping boss mechanics with these affixes.

crazy to me that underrot is S, its complete dogpiss dungeon

A lot of pugs didn't enjoy Algethar? What? Lmao, I don't think I ever talked to anyone who DIDN'T like it and think it was one of (if not THE) best dungeon in S1.

Healer (didn't get anywhere near high keys in S1): AA was fine, once ppl learned how the tree boss worked it was pretty puggable. CoS was cool with the profession stuff (I'm an alchemist so I got to poison the guy), and the middle bit was kinda neat but then the boss in the overhang sucked and the last boss was just okay. I really liked Nokhud as a healer. Tempest on Tyran weeks felt very rewarding to complete, the best week that season was the bursting/grievous week for me doing Nokhud. Stacking on the centaurs, activating the ballistae for Granith(?) and everything ppl needed to do for last boss was good. My least favorite dungeons were probably Nelth's Lair and Brackenhide. Not having a poison dispel on BH made going left after first boss extremely obnoxious and Nelth's Lair the one-shot earthquake thing was annoying with no indicator. Now I know about addons to time those so I probably wouldn't have trouble with it anymore but still, not the greatest design.

5 adds 13 minutes in is crazy. Is my KZfaq bugging out? Edit* yep an ad every 2 minutes of a 2 hour video is crazy. Not sure what's happening but I really want to watch this video but literally can't.

I like your tier list, just some adjustment : TOTT D tier, ToJS C tier, Algethar academy S tier, Ruby life pool S tier, Season 2 F tier (Neither you play one of the meta spec, nor you're out of >+20) Just 1 god comp deserve Z tier to me. It was a terrible time to play M+ for any spec other than god comp, and I am saying that as a healer.

i like everbloom but the problem with it my class is 6 target capped

Rate dungeons on their interaction with affixes. For instance, Explosive Algathar Academy was Horrendous!

JB being super negative? Never would have guessed

HoV was kinda ass but tbh as a prot pally in like +29s and 30s it always felt sooooooo good to just call out the Fenryr fixate and just BoP the target and blast Fenryr for the whole 10s fixate. I like that type of counterplay. Its all physical damage so i can BoP it and we blast. I will agree that its a little ass backtracking a lot and my god Skovald and the 4 kings mini bosses was just ugh can this be over already.

Halls of valor in A, but neltharus in D? who let them cook??

AV was so fun because of the different routes and skips you could do If they bring it back in s4 they better let us jump down again or i'm gonna be pissed.

All the dungeons are S tier. It's the affixes that make them absolutely horrible.

Court and Shadowmoon are singularly responsible for capping IO score from untimed keys at +20. They were wildly out of sync with the other S1 dungeons.

I'm pretty casual, I am doing 20-24s this season and dont push into high keys. But I don't quite understand why people are so opposed to Augmentation Evokers? Can someone explain? :) Thanks

As a Pres Evoker, Azure Vault belongs in F tier. Actual worst final boss in the game.

I have a love hate relationrelationship with ship with Court of starts. Me and my buddies ran that dungeon non stop cause 3 of us needed wet stone and also the ring. Overall we ran that dungeon around 100 times before we got it on all the chars. Never played legion so that’s why I enjoyed it a bit more. But ye after a 100 tries I don’t want to see that place ever again

I like throne of the tides 🤷‍♀️ Also what is it with Dorki always having to complain, like of course you can have a dungeon season without S tier lol

I think Rise would feel a lot, lot better if the route was cleaner and there was significantly less mandatory wasted time. Between RP, portals and just meh boss design, the key just feels slow and sluggish. It's near the polar opposite of Fall -- generous timer and solid release points makes the key very forgiving, whereas Rise is a key where the timer straight up lies to you and one wipe pretty much means a dead run.

Opinions vary wildly between people who just do their 16-20s for vault and heroic gear, people who push low-mid 20s, and people pushing 27-28+ and in super competent groups

JB is hands down the most based content creator WoW streamer person there is and it's not close

The camera thing is a huge deal. Especially as a caster.