It really struck me recently when I realized the temple ban on blacks was actually an exaltation ban.

I’m planning on applying to the “stopped believing at BYU” panel, and I’m a recent graduate. I’m so glad you provide these opportunities.

The argument of whether the black race temple ban was doctrine or not is moot. It was TAUGHT as doctrine and only demoted to a policy. It was never disavowed or apologized for on a church-wide scale (as it was taught)

Can you please try to get black African Mormons on the podcast, they’re are the current focus of the church projected growth so it would be an interesting perspective

You and your friends have further opened my eyes to the cult/religious abuse that these high control groups have over people who are just searching for “spiritual” guidance. I especially appreciate you including the racial aspect the Mormons chose to used on its members.

Brigham Young was a despicable human being…

The church need to be open and honest.

What a first class set of guests to have on your program. Hats off to all of you! 👏

This is an outstanding panel. I am so glad to know them, and I am pleased that they are willing to share their experiences in the church. Darron, Summur-Rayn, and Nate: My thanks and appreciation!

How people can believe in prophets and apostles who would ban black people from the temple for 140+ years, and then blame it on God, is something I can’t wrap my brain around. People will say that prophets in the Old Testament made mistakes, but this wasn’t just a ‘mistake.’ This shows 140+ years of racism and a lack of ability to be inspired by God at the highest level.

Great Panel. Thank goodness for the age of information. Great job Mormon Stories

I was forced to go to church by my parents. I am of Pacific Islander background, but i never understood how my father would put on a suit and act like an angel when at church but as soon as we got home my father would beat my mother, beat us kids up for very trivial things was very abusive and violent. And at a young age i would always think that going to church and learning about GOD was a good thing but this church was turning my father into a monster and if this church is teaching my father to be a good man, i never want to go to this church when i grow up. Thank GOD im not mormon anymore 🙏

The ironic thing about all of is that the first humans evolved and came out of Africa. The first humans were black. Later, the ones who went up north evolved into a lighter skin color.

Round of applause for each one of you. Thank you so much for your heart-felt thoughts and feelings 💙

The church’s racist history makes perfect sense when one understands Jesus would not abide these doctrines and policies through 10 presidencies and attendant general authorities and membership IF this was His “restored” church. Polygamy, polyandry, racism, and money laundering isn’t what Jesus would condone…which brings us to only one logical conclusion-fraud.

Racism and bigotry is disgusting. My heart breaks for these beautiful black people and that pain they must have gone through. But to then have the church take zero accountability for it. Just one day saying, oh we don't know why but it's different now. Now you are not a second class person. Is just mind boggling. Sending everyone so much love and healing. We need to share information about racism. How far we have come, and how far we still need to go. Instead of pretending like it never happened. ❤ Edit: when one of them said you can be racist and still be as kind and nice as can be. I almost spit my drink out.. that is so profound and true

In 2017, when we attended our ward in CA someone came to the Halloween party in black face! My husband sent the bishop an email letting him know it was completely unacceptable and racist.

I was raised Presbyterian but am now a secular humanist. This stuff is mind boggling to me. It reminds me of Catholicism, Fundamental Christianity, the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Ku Klux Klan. My best childhood friend was black. I wasn't allowed to play with the Catholic girl. I've concluded religion is a manmade construct.

Thank you Dr. Smith, Summur-Rayn, and Nate for taking on the emotional labor to talk through racism in the Mormon church system. It's a lot to carry. If there is a place I can send you three donations so you can go get a massage or a drink, please leave a comment. We appreciate you.

It must be said that Africans may not really understand how Black Americans truly feel about racism in the Church. We are told that we shouted for joy when the priesthood ban was lifted.

Wow, excellent show and excellent panel. I must confess that the professor has won a place in my heart!

I am loving this recent deep dive, it's beautiful and fun to hear analysis from a black perspective. Thank you to the panelists for being willing to discuss and share.

This series is incredible! Through Dr. Harris’s book and the responses to it, I’m getting important historical context on the things that surprised me in Channel Achenbach’s Mormon Story, for example. Dr. Smith helpfully connects the narrative between the different emanations of white supremacy over the decades. What Summur-Rayn said emphasizing that this was a *temple and ordinance ban* not just a priesthood ban, is really important. What a violent thing to do, extending the ideas of superiority and status and enslavement into the afterlife. And Nate Byrd has such a gift with words, I laughed so hard when he was like “You can get further untangling like 50,000 yards of Christmas lights than Mormon apologetics.” That got me thinking about my observations of corporate apologetics and *how elite groups talk and arrive at an accepted picture of reality* in other settings, and my goodness, I should write about this.

Brigham Young was such a clearheaded thinker and such a sweetie. What a great guy! (Extreme sarcasm)

I discovered this podcast last year in May and being born and raised in the Church, I had always had these doubts growing up while fully participating in what I now realize was a cultural/social habit. These kinks in the LDS Church and community need to be discussed out loud like this, so I appreciate this episode very much. I have not attended church in 20 years and I am perfectly ok with my life as it is without the Church. To be more inclusive about the blackface skits, etc., which is jarring, especially today: I grew up in Hawaii and local dark-skinned members used to do the opposite thing and dress as white people to mock them in skits (the way they dance, dress, behave badly overseas, etc). Polynesians do the same and even mock each other in costume, so it’s part of a broader ethnic-mocking sort of humor too.

This panel is perfection!

I have to say- I’m 48. When I was dating, I, as a white woman, was attracted to any color of people. If they were beautiful, I would want to date them. My mom steered me away from that “because it would just be hard to have dark babies with a white mom.” I never thought of it until about 20 years ago about it being racism.

I wish everyone would watch this episode

Joseph Fielding Smith with jazz hands 🤣🤣🤣

Thank you for this discussion. It has been a real eye-opener and lots to think about. Again, thank you to all.

Excellent material! I ABSOLUTELY LOVED the honesty and frankness of your panel, truly eye-opening. Thank you!!!

Please tell me this book will be available on Audible; I really want to hear Matt Harris’ book!

LOVE your content! Follow you religiously (no pun intended). You bring incredibly informative and interesting info.

Referring to it as a “priesthood ban” is really only the tip of the iceberg. This discussion is profound and much needed.

People often forget many of our church’s had racism. In the Methodist church I grew up in one started by my great great grandfather and Harriett Tubman because at the time black people couldn’t go to white churches.

31:05 this part made me literally laugh out loud, LOVE this episode. So important.

Isn't it interesting the Priesthood Revelation happened on Brigham's Birthday

I love Darron Smith . His passion bleeds through. He pulls no punches. I appreciate his connection between Church, GOP and MAGA.

Darin, your work with psychedelics and harm reduction sounds so fascinating

This church I have to say that it’s a church that I joined. When I joined I was very happy and the saints were so kind and welcoming. It was probably the first 6-8 months. And then someone came to speak with only the black sisters not all ladies and belittled them. That was when I felt so disappointed and hurt that I contacted my bishop. And I decided to just stop it all together. But during this time I still believed in that there was good there. So I visited another church in another state that was so different more city and diversity. You didn’t feel any kind of racism at all there. I was very proud of that. But I hadn’t heard of a curse of the skin ever or knew it was there. Not until 2023 first time. And to see the verse and see it I was hurt. I even contacted the missionary who baptized me and he explained, but I still didn’t feel satisfied. But what hurt most is I was in an interracial marriage and my kids are all biracial. Is the verse that details the mixing of the seed. That bothered me and it’s 2024 and knowing that leaders of the church know this and not even remove those scriptures is to me enough. knowing if it’s not removed then it’s meant to be there and to hurt. I’m not comfortable with that and I can’t support that. I’m a dark skinned and I feel offended. But although, I feel this way I still have tried to go back and over look it. But I feel when i go it says Dummy across my head because I know how im looked at. If you can’t hold a genuine conversation with me.(10mis)You have to actually think of things to say tells me you don’t interact much with those of my ethnicity. And if so it’s with those who know how the church feels but over look it. Because your friendship means so much rather than facing the truth of the doctrine. It’s better to not discuss it or just ignore it’s there. And that’s not okay, I can’t invite people to church knowing that. I mean it’s hurtful to read it’s like joining a church based on what you taught but omitted what is actually there. It’s a deceit kinda thing. I was so impressed that someone actually wanted to teach me about God in this New Testament of Jesus Christ. But once I saw scriptures that was meant to be what God said I had to back off. Because God is 💛why would he speak so harshly about his creation? It’s definitely to me a man interpretation of scripture because during that time racism was strongly allowed. And this doesn’t apply to blacks who have a lighter skin remember it’s towards those with a dark skin. 😮😢I would hope that the church re-examine the Book of Mormon and remove those scriptures. It’s hard to defend what is there but if you made a big deal in having it removed. it will show that at least it’s history does want to be corrected with today’s current actions that they aren’t a racist church. 😮

I'm not Mormon just curious and find you very interesting sir .

Never mo here. LDS little kids calling a light skinned black woman a Lamanite - this stuff happens? omg wow 😳

I’m a white woman who converted to the church as an adult in 1987. My then husband was black and also converted. He was denied the priesthood with no explanation given. Neither of us knew about the ban at the time but he found out about it few months later and let me know he didn’t want to be Mormon anymore. That caused a problem bc I already believed it was the “only true church” and so we got a divorce bc I wanted a priesthood holding husband. Several years went by and I also left the church after studying church history for almost 10 years. Yet, after alI the things I learned I somehow missed the temple ban part… wow… just when I thought I knew my history! 😮 I think the ban was/is terrible spiritual abuse.

This was absolutely amazing!

Bring back the brick background 😊

I like that you're trying something new with the backgrounds! If I might input, I don't like that your background (John) is half positive and half negative space. The left half of your camera view feels so empty. I think there should be something there to help balance things out.

Your 3 most brilliant guests

I adore every one of these panelists!!! Beautiful humans, every one of them! 💜

What a fun and informative podcast! I hope to see everyone back soon

Great episode and panel! It’s one thing to hear these stories in a historical context and a completely other thing when sharing personal experiences surrounding the history. The church is this way on purpose. I would love to hear perspectives from active black Mormon regarding these topics. Such as Sista’s in Zion.

Amazing episode. Thank you!

Listening to it now. Great episode. So sorry I missed the episode live. The question I have is "Is it an apology if the church is compelled/forced/shamed to apologize? I would not have joined the church if I knew that the church was compelled/forced/shamed to remove the priesthood/temple ban. The church is doing the same now being forced/shamed to apologize. He/she/church that is compelled is a "slothful servant"

The Lord made us all, we come in a rainbow of beautiful colours. Perfect every one no one is superior to any one else. You are loved guys. Julie UK ❤❤

BYU should be renamed before it's forced on them. Have a question, If the LDS church is now a business, why are they still allowed to use the word church? Isn't that illegal? Btw I'm mixed race South African by birth, living in Australia. I shared previous podcasts on, Second class saints on my FB so my many family members still in South Africa, can know about it.

Great panel, really enjoyed! Love the blue background!

My brother was in the Louisville Kentucky mission in 2000 and there were bishops that wouldn't let black people be baptized into their ward, members that bragged about n-hunting and n-knocking he had no idea what those even meant and when he found out he was so shocked that the members did that.. The KKK was still alive and well.. He said you hated the white members there. It was a very traumatic experience-so its still very recent and just not talked about. We can pretend that 1978 just stopped the racism in the church but it's so deep seeded . And I know the south is just different but the leaders knew. They still know what is going on.the whole "that's just how the times were" is total and complete bs

Background and lighting 👌

Excellent and long needed discussion....this is where honesty thrives...didnt brad wilcox say a stupid racist remark lately..its in them still...😢😢

Thank you❤ allways great to listen to🎉

Brilliant episode!!❤

Even at my most active I was bewildered when I'd come across a black member.

Love the brick

You're enjoying a podcast when you don't notice the time or the time goes quickly.

I was being taught in LDS Sunday School in the early '90s that Black people were *still* cursed (as of the 90's)! Thanks to my public school instruction on MLK and racism, I immediately recognized the LDS teaching as racist. I don't understand how the LDS Church has gotten away with not even apologizing or taking accountability for instilling racism in generations of members.

This whole history lesson is insane, but this moment in particular made my jaw drop 🫨 1:08:04 saying Nate would be white in heaven? Jesus christ. Oh shot, and Darron too! @1:51:40 SMDH

Reacting to 1:17:02... As a Kenyan who almost joined the LDS church, I initially found their theology quite sensible. However, my perspective changed when a student gave me the Book of Mormon. I read it thoroughly, but 2 Nephi 5:21 and Alma 9:14-15 made me reconsider. That's when I decided to stop the process. You mentioned something about Kenyans that isn't accurate. My family descends from the Mau-Mau, a significant part of our history that you might want to Google. I listen to this podcast as a part of my journey to recovery. I once believed, but now, I'm no longer religious.

Brick!

Summur says her dad Burgess is Utah's first black congressman. Is she unaware of Mia Love? (And yes, you could argue Mia wasn't a congressMAN, but that's not the point.)

@1:18 - you all made the point a bit earlier that Mormonism also reflects the culture at large- then and now. White supremacist ideology and actions have never gone away, but I think we are experiencing a big resurgence of people who not only espouse white supremacy but want to take action to restore it more fully. The church most likely reflects this trend as well.

Thanks!

THIS IS JOHN AT HIS FINEST!!! GO JOHN!! Nobody gets it, like John gets it! The man has walked the ROAD, and held the hands of thousands of others as they walk down that same road, but their own. And when he allows himself to just speak the logic and truth that he has found by walking in those painful shoes, it's like he can PREEEEEACH! You're a rock star, John! Thank you for shining a light on this topic that is so misunderstood, because the church has spent so much time gaslighting everyone on it!! (PS I prefer the BRICK house!!) 😁 I can't change.

I like the brick background.

I have been impatiently waiting for this video since Saturday! 😂 finally yay!!🎉🎉 Also, go back to BRICK please! God Bless America and all of the human beings on Earth, extra prayer for the ones who have, are, or will endure a faith crisis. 🙏🇺🇸

Why do some people say Joseph Smith wasn’t as bad as Brigham Young like it is a good thing? As a never mo who learns about being LDS mainly from Mormon Stories, I understand that is a ridiculously low bar.

The new background looks good....but I'm not sure you should change it. That brick background was an immediate identifier that it was MSP. Likewise, if McDonalds came up with a "better" logo it probably wouldn't make sense to ditch the arches.

I meant Eldridge Cleaver in 1968 and became his friend.. after he came back to the United States and I had a chance to talk to him 10 years later.. I told him about my Joseph Smith type experience that I had in 1968 a few months after he left. 2 years later I met a Mormon and joined the church. Cleaver was very interested and he had been thinking about the church. Also from the experiences that he had had. He ended up talking to Paul Dunn and Cleon skousen and after he was baptized he went with me to salt lake and met President Kimball in the in the elevator.. we had a sit down talk in the office of EzraTaft Benson. He also spoke to the law school at BYU and was interviewed by The daily universe and kbyu TV.. I think it was the next year or two. He spoke in the Marriott center during the pioneer Days

I prefer the brick. :)

“Moral relativism“ is so frustrating to me. Giving people of the past a pass because it was a “different time” keeps us stuck.

Even taking everything you are saying as fact and truth. I still believe the church is the best organization on Earth for teaching families and children, principles of happiness and virtue.. in fact, you might agree with me.

How does the Black only lds congregation sub group fit in all this (Genesis) I think they have their own version of general conf mtg? I’ve only heard of them and would like to know how they justify or feel being made separately to identify? Maybe I’m asking the wrong question. Please advise…

I honestly relate to a lot of racial oppression as person of Polynesian descent and ex member of the lds church. I feel as if members don’t want to remember when Polynesians came to Utah they were oppressed and went through racial injustice from the members and the church. The stories I have heard from my elders are horrific, but I feel as if members do a good job “not remembering” or disregarding their actions and the oppression of the beliefs itself.

1:33:55 1:34:22

I grew up in the 90s in Pocatello ID and was taught that interracial marriage was not ok. We had an interracial couple move into our ward I was 12 and I was so confused. Makes me sad to know how that couple felt in our ward. Ugh

Great discussion! 💜

Brick

So here is something I was thinking about. A man obtains the priesthood by the laying on of hands if I am correct. So, when someone is excommunicated or asks for his name to be stricken from the church records, how is it that they lose their priesthood? Do they perform an unlaying of the hands? How does one lose their priesthood? Simply by decree? I find it highly unlikely that an individual loses something they were given?

How are they going to convince Egyptians on young earth creationism?

Imitation of Life, Sandra Dee Lana Turner. That’s the movie. There was a guy recently pretending to be black. He had a fake black face on social media. It was on RFM Mormon Discussions. Really good story by RFM.

Ditch the brick! The brick looks like Joe Rogan and that's not a compliment. Love you guys and keep getting better 💕

I’d be curious to hear how Summer is able to reconcile the fact that her white husband still believes the church and their prophets to be true after everything with its racist past they’ve talked about.

How do you deconstruct a religion when you're still in it? That's so wild to me. My sister and brother-in-law have a very similar relationship. She's still in. He's out. They are able to make it work

I know of black face skits that were still being performed in LDS California ward talent shows as recently as the 1980-1990’s

According to the founders of Mormonism, the no black people thing was a non-issue. After all, after accepting Mormonism, their skin would become delightfully white.

I feel like a lot of people also engage in what I'll call 'pastism'... they force the morals, priorities, etc. of the past on the present.

I need to get me an ahnk necklace.

This material is amazing. I've made this comment before-> We know humans came out of Africa, and were black. God created man in his own image, so these Nordic depictions of God in a Roman toga must not be accurate. Then, the black Cain was 'cursed', and since that is presented as being a change in skin color and cursing generally involves some kind of damage or breakage, and us lily white folk have DNA damage that disables melanin production, it must mean the cursing made Cain white and the Curse of Cain to being change to black was a re-writing of the actual event. Another example of exceptionalism aging badly.

John, did you just say “homie” to the gentleman in the hat?? 🤩

Great episode. So much knowledge and insight. I learned a lot about the different stories and lies about race and about white supremacist cover-ups. I don’t think the Mormon church is any better or worse than other white supremacist religious sects or organizations. But this thorough examination of all the different places leadership pulls its lies from provides several perspectives from which to view white supremacy. in other organizations as well.

I would be curious what these three individuals really think of Martin Luther King, white supremacy, social justice, LGBTQ rights. Communism, socialism. The civil rights movement. Government welfare, liberalism, democrat, Racism.. etc. from what I can gather their proponents.But we have to ask ourselves does living and supporting these ideas actually harm or help society?

We laugh so we don't cry.