I thought the Sonata would have some sort of pivot, but it seems to be relying on the inherent flexibility of the small strip of metal which is bolted to the inner casting. If I can think of a way to improve the fake I may do so. It probably needs new gaskets too, but that I think I can do. Thanks 😀 👍

Thanks 😀 👍. I think it is interesting to see how these fakes have developed from genuine machines 🤔

Thanks 😀 👍. Yes it doesn't seem to be that great a design of soundbox. The Sonata is probably a little better, but I would have thought it would have been just as easy to copy a better design 🤔

@@mrrgstuff i agree absolutely. There is some degree of skill that the Indian guys use to put these together. I’ve never understood why they don’t produce something better. If not a whole machine, there could be all sorts of parts they could produce. Must be economics I guess.

Yes, I think if there was actual demand for a working machine, the quality would be better at the factory gate, and there would be importers who would also improve the quality further (for a price). This model works for the Chinese minilathes, but then ultimately they are tools, not decorative pieces like these gramophones. Thanks 😀 👍

Thanks 😀 👍 That's good to know

@@mrrgstuff You're welcome! I believe Victor was first to use it with the 2nd gen of Orthophonic reproducers. Great video, I wish there was more stuff focused on reproducer design and repair, so thanks for your content!

Glad you enjoy the videos. I have lots of reproducers to look at, about 40+ now and I will be building new ones from scratch also. Thanks 😀 👍

I have a couple of these soundboxes too. The one I worked on came with the machine. The other, in a job lot and I don't think I have ever tested it. It is very similar yet different enough to see that it didn't come off the same production line at the same time. Whilst this soundbox seems an odd choice for a horn machine, its construction doesn't require rubber gaskets or mica diaphragm. The way the pivot has been simplified on the fake is interesting and very efficient from a manufacturing point of view, but probably very hard on the records! 😅😀👍

@@mrrgstuff I agree, hence ditching the fake soundbox for a period aftermarket one that has been rebuilt.

Thanks 😀 👍. Glad you enjoyed it. I am filming a repair video for the fake one as I did manage to break it .. 😟

​@@mrrgstuff That happens to everyone who even remotely tries to work on this stuff. Rather the fake than the real thing.

@@thegregolarecordsclub6564 Yes, the diaphragm screw on the fake I think must have been glued. I've also noticed that the screw won't screw back into the broken part, so maybe it was just held in with glue 🤔. Thanks 😀👍

Thanks 😀 👍. Much appreciated. I was hoping it was suitably old. It sounded rather better than expected, though the sheer volume overwhelmed the mic on the camcorder!

Thanks 😀 👍. Glad you enjoyed it

Yes, though surprisingly the Sonata is very much the same in that respect. There is probably a little more flexibility in the original Thorens design, but essentially the needle bar is just screwed to the internal casting. No springs or anything. Thanks 😀 👍

Interesting. I've just watched your video, too 😀. This style of soundbox is quite late for an external horn gramophone, so your one might be a later replacement of an earlier Thorens soundbox. Alternatively it may just be a late horn gramophone. You certainly have a very nice looking machine! I have tried my Sonata on my horn gramophone here: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Z89hrdakl8Wck6s.htmlsi=ZyQmNZwXFomX1oyQ Thanks 😀👍

I think if grease makes it quieter, then I would stick with that. I have not properly serviced my fake machine, so it probably sounds worse than it could. If your motor has a non return spring, it is apparently best not to oil or grease that, as it could cause slippage as it will not grip the winding shaft as tightly. Thanks 😀 👍

@@mrrgstuff Maybe you do not understand me. I mean the movement of the crank. Please, could you upload a video of the crank of your gramophone? I do not know if one of your videos show this. Thanks

Yes, they are really just decoration pieces which have moving parts. They are not really intended to be used for playing records and from what I have seen, many people who own them only have the 1 record that was supplied with it. Having said that, the soundbox is a Sonata clone, and the motors are clones of Garrard or Thorens motors so they are built like real gramophones, just not to great quality. I doubt the cardboard is very effective as the gasket, but the ones on the Sonata don't seem any better. Thanks 😀 👍

@@mrrgstuff you’re welcome!

Interesting to hear about your machine. It's not a make I have seen. The fittings on soundboxes, although not universal do tend to fall into a small selection of types. Its occurred to me that this would be a good subject for a video which I will try to do shortly, however the basics are: HMV/Victor style which has a hole on the back of the soundbox about 17.5mm in inside diameter and a pin on the inside at about the 1 o'clock position when looked from the rear. Common soundboxes like the Exhibition, No.2, No.4 are like this. The tonearm has an L shaped slot for the pin to run in. 3/4" (19mm) outside diameter tube without pin. This is an older style of fitting and the end of the tonearm is sometimes slightly sprung to keep it in place. This style can also be found with a pin on the outside in which case there will be a slot in the tonearm. Unless your one is a manufacturer's special it is likely to be one of the 2 types I mention. Most smaller firms (in my experience in the UK) used one or other There are some notable exceptions such as Columbia machines and the HMV 102 Hope that helps

@@mrrgstuff Thank you so much for the reply. Perhaps I’ll put together a quick video and link it here to show the machine and setup. I can’t seem to find much information on it; plus I’m sure there were several owners before me who may have made changes.

Yes, would be great to see it. Thanks 😀 👍

@@mrrgstuff I’m not sure of KZfaq’s rules on posting links, but if it doesn’t show here, the video will be on my profile/channel. It’s my one and only video, so shouldn’t be hard to find. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/od17fZmImsfSfKM.html

Yes, I was expecting some very clever little pivot mounted inside. Although I didn't take the Sonata's needle bar to pieces completely, there was no sign of any sort of conventional pivot mechanism. It seems Thorens did make other similar ones, which indeed may be better in that respect. Thanks 😀 👍

Quite possibly. Thorens seem to have had a large and ever changing catalogue of parts to suit all price ranges and its likely their stuff appears under other names too. Thanks 😀 👍

@@mrrgstuff I have a gramophone with an earlier Thorens concert soundbox with a mica diaphragm, marked with the Thorens anchor but branded Harmonola. I've seen the same or similar soundboxes on other locally made gramophones, with just the paper label with the brand name differing.

The Sonata is the only one I have with the Thorens logo on it. I did rebuild thisborherbone which looked a bit Thorens like, but I suspect mat not be made by them: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/f9Fzdqxpu9zNo58.html Thanks 😀 👍

Possibly 🤔. It certainly seems to have been left out of the fake as presumably it doesn't make enough of a difference to warrant the cost. I think a lot of soundboxes back in the day were largely copied from other designs, and very few companies invested much effort in figuring out what really worked and what parts of the design were really important. Thanks 😀 👍

Yes, and recycled cardboard at that! I may be able to make some better gaskets for it. Thanks 😀 👍

You could probably put some rubber tubing over the tonearm to make the real soundbox fit better. Tape would work too, but don't use this on a tonearm which is plated, as it will probably lift the plating off! 😲. Thanks 😀 👍

@@mrrgstuff Thank you so much for the advice, I do learn a lot from your videos. And you deserve a sub

Thanks 😀 👍. I really appreciate it! 😀

Thanks 😀 👍. Glad you enjoyed it. I've had that Sonata soundbox for ages but was saving it for this video 😅

Indeed, and I must learn to have the camera running when I break things! 😉😅. Thanks 😀 👍

I don't have a complete external horn machine, though you may notice at the end of the video I have a rusty vintage horn from one. I do have a collection of vintage gramophones though, and about 40 soundboxes of various types. I find the fake gramophones interesting to experiment with. Thanks 😀 👍

The one on the right is the real one. Thanks 😀 👍

oh.

Yes, the Sonata is a bit disappointing and I wonder why it was chosen for these fakes, but maybe the ring cardboard gaskets are cheaper and simpler to do than tube ones. I did fix it here: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/oN9ihLGA3t7Ln40.html and I have also had a go various other parts including the wonky platter: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l8WVlst1x8WslJs.html Glad you enjoyed the video. I thought your fake one sounded pretty good too, though not as good as your Decca. Thanks 😀 👍

@@mrrgstuff I will give them both a look 👍😎

Thanks 😀 👍. I've done a few other videos on these too and just put them in a playlist for convenience: kzfaq.info/sun/PLsCYUbO6xxnSQxENr28Cg05DiRuC5O47w