Haha, I’ve seen the very same thing in an FDA setting. It’s crazy how much “politics” can dictate cost! Not to get political.

That's probably fairly accurate, and unfortunate. Thanks for being here Jonathan!

Thank you for those resources, I will most certainly go check them out!

Well you’ve said something very true there, we just keep paying!

The Market doesn't have a Choice. Want to have your eyes opened, take a look sometime at instruments from the same company, same Model, and the price difference between "Experimental" and "Certified". ZERO Difference, they came off of the same lines, are built to the same standards, but that little TSO stamp means you pay around 3X the price. Sadly one of the things that TSO does is hamper Innovation. it's the same reason that we haven't had any REAL new advancements when it comes to powerplants. Overall, if you look at things, aside from Rotax, there really hasn't been much movement...oh, a lot of people have TRIED, there are some really interesting looking Diesels out there...Problem is, without Musk or Bezos money, who can afford to take the hit for the Millions of dollars for Certification. Hell, look at the nightmare it's been getting Unleaded Avgas certified, even as you have areas in Californiia that banned 100LL. One really impressive Diesel option was rolled out at Airventure in 2019. They were actively seeking builders to buy their engines, and start getting hours in the air...at a cost of Over $100K Firewall-Forward. Needless to say, they got few if any takers..most people getting into Experimental are trying to SAVE money, not equal the cost of a brand New Certified Aircraft., or be the literal Guinea Pigs for new Engines.

You’ve so perfectly described our sad reality. Another problem is, changing the system is u likely to be a priority for any lawmaker. The aviation community simply doesn’t contain enough votes!

I believe this to be unfortunately true.

I try not to mention it too much, but it is a major passion of mine. I run the manufacturing department at Tekton. Check out our website tekton.com, I think you'll like what you see! Don't hesitate with any questions!!!

@@MyTimeToFly you are right! I like what I saw. It seems to be a very nicely assorted production of quality hand tools, both metric and imperial! Doesn't seem like something one would have to "hide". 😉

Thanks so much, I’m very proud of what we do.

Truth! I did hear somebody is making the again, perhaps it's Beechcraft themselves.

I hear you on the Air Force costs, I worked with a gentleman who spent many years machining defense aerospace parts. The costs of the raw material alone (Inconel, titanium, etc.) is outrageous. It’s also crazy difficult to machine. Finally, that’s truly a world of low volume production!

Unreal! Someone else mentioned the Viking engine, has anyone out one in an RV?

I’m with you on the experimental thing. Here’s my problem…the cost we pay for part certification must come off the price of the part eventually. These parts aren’t changing and being re-certified constantly. I’m sure there’s some insurance risk, but I’m also sure there is some “they’ll pay it” mentality as well.

Thats so awesome Scott! You've probably told me before, but what engine do you have in it?

@@MyTimeToFly I have a UL Power 350is (130 HP) full FADEC engine.

Roger that! I’ve been watching the DarkAero guys and their UL powered prototype, pretty sweet blend of a classic engine and newer tech!

@@MyTimeToFly If you are interested here is a short video I made on my engine. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/iKd_ZpypxtaUmI0.html

That is a CRAZY amount of space behind the engine. It's the complete opposite of my Mooney.

It certainly feels that way sometimes.

I really love the idea of the Viking (I drive / rebuild Honda cars). However, it’s not available to put in the Mooney. I would strongly consider it for an experimental airplane.

@@MyTimeToFly there's got to be a way to turn your airplane into an experimental airplane, and then figure out how to install this thing

I would like to know those costs as well, but it doesn’t seem they could be too crazy. This is “proven” technology with tremendous redundancy built in.

I agree with you, but 35 million is pennies compared to the automotive world. Just some recent examples: 2016 VW Emissions - 14.7 Billion 2014 Toyota Acceleration Issue - 1.2 Billion 2011 GM Ignition Switch - 900 Million Ford Explorer Rollovers - 1 Billion These are just the big ones!

@@MyTimeToFly I had one of the TDI Passats affected by that, was still a great car until it sucked parts of the turbo into the engine. Automotive industry is in a vastly different economy of scale though…

Agreed on the economy of scale, I had an affected Jetta…sold it back!

@@MyTimeToFly Mine was leased and I tripled the allowable mileage... it was a shit show.

Sounds like it. I ended up driving my Jetta for something like 2.5 years and only paid $2,000 total after they bought it back.

Very well said Clint. Did you go Honda by Viking?

@@MyTimeToFly Yes, the Turbo 195HP. Knowing what I know about engines, there is no way I'd feel comfortable converting an engine myself. Happy to maintain it though.

Very awesome! I’ve done some research on the Viking engines, and although there are always some doubters, I really like them.

@@MyTimeToFly Yeah its easy to drink the viking coolaid. But before I found viking I did a lot of research on aircraft engines, watched/listened to pretty much all of Mike Busch's lectures on aircraft engines, most of them twice. I concluded I didn't have the resources if there was a major issue like a bad cylinder. That would ground me for several months, even if I supplied the labour for repairs. A full engine overhaul would financially wreck me and my family for several months. Besides I get a simple to operate single power lever, variable pitch prop that will be more akin to a car CVT than a CSU (once I program it) and turbo charging for high altitude cruising speeds and full power takeoffs on hot days without the negatives to engine life/weight and expense. Nothing against traditional aircraft engines, I think their story arc was shaped when it was asked to be aircooled and deal with 100LL but that's a deep rabbit hole to get started on.

Yikes, I'd have to take a loan for those plugs. I agree it's not surprising, but I do believe there are ways to change the curve a bit!

I don't doubt what your saying, it just seems there could be some common sense injected into aviation. It's not like parts on our airplanes fail less often than car parts, even with FAA/PMA certification.

I knew I’d say it wrong, I appreciate the correction!

It all adds up so quickly, it’s really a miracle we keep any of our vintage planes flying!

Just freaking crazy. I love hearing your perspective as an A&P!

@@MyTimeToFly I love pretending like I know what I’m talking about😂😂😂

Hahaha, too funny man!

Too funny, who would have thought a car part could save the day. It seems like Honda could start an entire division of piston aircraft engines, and rule the market!

@@MyTimeToFly I believe there are several automotive engines like VW , Subaru, the LS1 V8 as used by some Holden and Chevy even BMW that have been converted for aviation use but I don't know if they can be used on certified aircraft, definitely on experimental category and I guess despite the conversion and engineering approval costs they would still be an economical option for those aircraft. On a side note I work as an avionics tech and I just recently executed a full avionics upgrade on a piper Aztec and the Alt Inop lights basically turned into powder through age and we simply replaced them with new units from a local bulk electronics supplier, they were easier to fit, globes are easier to change and my boss who has multiple licences said these were fine for the intended use and some of the parts like switches , terminals and consumables that we purchase through aviation supply channels are identical in construction and specifications to commmercial retail items....with the exception of the number on the packaging that seems to cost a fortune funnily enough

There are certainly some “converted” engines available, but they’ve never really taken hold. It’s taking 3rd party colonies like Viking or Jabiru to take on the work, rather than the OEM.

I’m sorry to hear this, I wish the cost was different too!

I’m with you. I actually said the other day that “experimental will be the only path for the future of General Aviation”. Certified airplanes will price themselves extinct with the exception of flight schools and corporations. Just my opinion!

@@MyTimeToFly Price for certification is definitely too high. For less than a new 172 you can get some good experimentals that are already built.

No doubt! Sling / Vans will take over the GA space.

Yes it is. I’m glad I got mine back in the day (2003). I did it in a 150/152 for around $5,000.

That’s insane! Probably a $3.00 switch at the car parts store!

I have a 68 and you can buy switch/breakers on aircraft spruce for about 30 dollars. I may know someone who did that. Some people would interpret an electrical switch as a standardized part and therefore doesn't need a TSO blah blah blah.

I like that interpretation!

I'm not sure how we fix it, perhaps speed up the movement to experimental aircraft!

My pleasure!

Remember there are great options that maintain the best of both worlds (ownership / renting). Options like flying clubs, or partnerships can really help to cut down costs of ownership, but tend to have pilots with pride in ownership still!

Don’t forget about the experimental market. It’s much cheaper to operate and maintain them. Either way it’s not cheap but you can absolutely find a way to afford it if you want to.

@@zachschaneberger I doubt my family or at least my wife would get in a plane that said experimental anywhere on it. Are their many options that are good for cross country flight? I have a few destinations that would be between 2 to 4 hours in a 172 and carry a decent amount of weight since I'm husky myself. So probably something around the capabilities of a Cessna 172 or Piper PA 28 (Archer, Cherokee) as these where the kind of planes I was initially thinking may be a good family cross country plane.

Perhaps the name should be updated someday. Many “experimental” airplanes are very far from experimental. They are tried and tested with thousands of examples flying around the world.

I think experimental IS the future of general aviation!

Sorry to hear about the cylinder! You're spot on, boats might seem like a cheap hobby for a pilot.

@@MyTimeToFly just part of owning a 60 year old airplane

Amen to that!

I completely agree wit you Tommy!

I certainly agree there are extreme costs to small production runs of parts and that we do take for granted the scale of automotive manufacturing. But, I also know that making 1 is much different than making 1,000 if the right methods are used. With CNC technology and additive manufacturing, the costs of things could reduce. I’ll take an oil filter as an example. If you go to the auto parts store there are a hundred or more filters, different sizes, brands, “quality levels” etc. What makes our oil filter not just another style on the shelf for the same price? In the US along there are over 200,000 GA aircraft. If each one changed their filter twice a year that’s 400,000 filters. There is no “scale” difference between 400,000 and any number really.

So many good points! Thanks for the comment, you speak a ton of truth.

I think someday it might be a necessity!

It's crazy, isn't it!!!

No doubt about that. I wish there was an easy way to make the switch to experimental!

I couldn't agree more! Sounds like you're an RV guy? I will certainly be going the way of the experimental in the future, but for now this Mooney is my cheapest way to fly (even though I'll still complain about the prices).

@@MyTimeToFly yes sir, started certified in a Cessna then sold for an rv6. Experimental is no excuse to cut corners, but it’s nice when you want a few more options on Maintenance and upgrades

Great way of saying it. It’s not an excuse, just gives you options! I love it.

Hahaha I must be the craziest man alive, I've got a diesel and a boat too. They all have something in common (old but well taken care of).

@@MyTimeToFly 2003 Cummins 2002 Grady White 330 Express Also old but well taken care of 🤙 Not to mention.....paid for. Edit: I wish I could own a plane, I can't afford what I would want, but I'm not scared of getting my PPL

Nice! 2006 LBZ Duramax (310,000) 1993 Four Winns Sundowner 235 1963 Mooney (but it’s on the way out, gotta have some cash)

@@MyTimeToFly I'd love a Husky, every time I see one I stop and appreciate it. Mooney is a good bird....sorry yours has to move on, but life demands on nobody's schedule. Fly, Sail and travel safe!

I would sign that piece of paper TOMORROW!

I'm with you on this one.

It does feel like that sometimes, although I do know a few good feds!