Narrowband in the City: Should You Go MONO?

Рет қаралды 34,336

2 жыл бұрын

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Пікірлер: 123

@andreasrosland7012 Жыл бұрын

Excellent video! Your channel has become my favorite channel to learn astrophotography, thank you for sharing all this knowledge!

@hymanmj 2 жыл бұрын

Some great info in there Nico. Thank you. :)

@driftingintoretirement 2 жыл бұрын

Awesome honest video Nico. Thanks.

@michaellorentzen1672 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the disclosures!!!!!!

@sigurdsvorkmo-lundberg8541 2 жыл бұрын

Great video as always Nico! I will most likely not get into dedicated astrocameras until next year, but nontheless great explenation of how great mono is

@astrocarone9671 2 жыл бұрын

Great video Nico!

@uschi414 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the excellent video, Nico. I would like to throw out a couple points with regards to the mono vs. OSC for a complete image in one night example you mentioned. I agree with your general point that OSC can be easier to get an image in one night, but there are ways around that for mono. For example, if you use NINA as your capture software, You can cycle through Ha and OIII repeatedly using a filter offset instead of spending the time to refocus after just a few subs. The filter change and focus movement take a little time, but it does guarantee you get both filters at the end of the night, even if clouds roll in. And you can still run autofocus on HFR change or on a time period, so if your focus is shifting during the night you won’t have lots of out of focus subs.

@andreoliver5927 Жыл бұрын

Great review. Thank you.

@AstroOnbudget 2 жыл бұрын

Looking forward to this :)

@DSOImager 2 жыл бұрын

Great video Nico and nice pics at the end. I agree on all of your points. Like you I jumped into mono first.. but I did pick up a 533MC when they came out as an impulse/curiosity. CS!

@NebulaPhotos 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks James!

@siegfriednoet 2 жыл бұрын

Great interesting video Nico, very well and understandable explained ! I'm shooting osc but thinking on maybe a switch to mono next year ...., well maybe

@robb7342 2 жыл бұрын

You certainly hit a number of good points Nico, thanks! I'm really looking forward to the follow up comparison. Hoping that you will do both LRGB vs OSC and Ha/Sii/Oiii vs dualband OSC based on your early comments. I think it would help people like myself make a better informed decision as to how to move forward in the hobby. Given that mono camera's take advantage of the full realastate on the sensor, it would be interesting to see the theoretical crossover, where X hours in LRGB mono surpasses X hours of OSC. I don't think it would be a straight <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="64">1:4</a> ratio based on OSC:4 x LRGB filters, but more likely closer to a <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="62">1:2</a> ratio. Thus, this approach would definately help newbies like myself get an appreciation of just how much more shooting time is required for mono.

@markmuller3086 Жыл бұрын

Hi Nico This is a super video on not only the subtle differences between mono and color cameras (subtle at least to a beginner), but also on the pros and cons for each, as I look ahead to beyond my DSLR camera. For now I want to continue to build my skills with the camera I have, but a dedicated astro camera is in my future I think! I liked the point you made about 1” square sensors maybe being a bit restrictive for deep space. I hadn’t thought that through and think I do prefer the <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="182">3:2</a> ratio. It is the extra pre-processing work with mono that I have to consider. I need to think through whether multi-night works for me. Currently I drive 3 hours to my dark sky location. Otherwise my backyard is typical suburban Bortle 8-ish. Great video!

@markjennette909 Жыл бұрын

Thanks!

@jeffratino5456 2 жыл бұрын

Another great video Nico, Thanks. My apprehension switching to mono, as you briefly touched on, is cloudy skies. As I have learned since starting this hobby 2 yrs ago, Ohio is the 8th cloudiest state. And I believe it. Last time I shot was over a month ago. I just don't know that I'll be able to get enough time on an object.

@RandallWagoner 2 жыл бұрын

Great video Nico! I see my name!!! lol

@souvikroychoudhury8698 Жыл бұрын

You answered some of my questions i didn't even know I had

@WindyCityAstrophotography 2 жыл бұрын

Great work, Nico! It's definitely a balance between imaging time (either with life or clouds or both) and desired image quality/processing time. I think mono wins out, but absolutely some of these amazing multi-bandpass filters work very very well. I just wish I could get a filter wheel on my RASA...

@natem7440 Жыл бұрын

Looking forward to part 2

@gavinwirth9307 2 жыл бұрын

What good timing because I just started planning to get a dedicated astro camera for the first time!

@markjennette909 Жыл бұрын

I like that you explain everything well that you talk about. I'm just trying to get into using a telescope; I'm 72 and my loving wife of 50 years bought me a Meade LX-90 ACF 12" telescope. I really know nothing about using a telescope, so I'm watching you to learn.

@SyriusLee Жыл бұрын

Good to hear such a long marriage :) I’m not even 40 started this hobby couple of months ago just like you. Clear skies!

@71janas 2 жыл бұрын

Coffee ready, let's goooooooooo

@alanalain4884 2 жыл бұрын

The most informative video caught so far on pros and cons of Mono vs One Shot Color. Very well done. To note is an interesting comment reply further down where Nico mentions that with a good Bortle, a moded DSLR can hold its own vs a MM LRGB for the Triifid and Lagoon nebula.

@briankotak403 2 жыл бұрын

That was an awesome video. Very well done. I’m in a Bortle 2 rural area. I have a ZWO ASI 2600 MC Pro. I thought about mono but I like producing a colour image in one night. I also am starting to use a L-Extreme. There is nothing like a dark sky! Thanks again for the informative video Nico. Dr B from Manitoba, Canada 🇨🇦

@Korruptor711 2 жыл бұрын

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1236">20:36</a> I live in a Bortle 8-9 area and this result is amazing. I was planning on driving to a place 1.5 hours away once a month for doing astrophotography, but with results like this, I can do this in my back yard

@grigoryvidishev1810 2 жыл бұрын

I got into mono this year and I do see increase in quality of my images. Downside is I need more time to get it, but it is worth it. Thank you Nico for the video!

@cucubits 2 жыл бұрын

Shouldn't it be the other way around? With mono you would need to shoot less total time than with an OSC for similar results.

@grigoryvidishev1810 2 жыл бұрын

@@cucubits debatable. I argue-no

@Gordonlanguam 2 жыл бұрын

@@cucubits well you need atleast 3 filters to be combined into a color image

@physmc1 2 жыл бұрын

It is more efficient in narrowband and LRGB, but requires more work and moving parts (e.g. refocusing) . Both osc and mono can yield great pictures, but I personally prefer mono

@brinkoo7 2 жыл бұрын

great video as always... im totally going to go mono on my 11" RASA this year lol. mostly just for narrowband projects. Just gotta find another filter kit as the one I have is not gonna cut it on F/2

@martrich1098 2 жыл бұрын

Nico - fascinating insight, thanks so much. You have reinforced my belief that it is not worth the jump to mono for me yet. I am severly time limited for image capture, so I will stick to OSC until I have more time to play with.

@gomanastro 2 жыл бұрын

Excellent explanation of OSC vs Mono, I started with OSC QHY268C using Radian Quadband filter, and H alpha filter,....got great shots from Bortle 9, BUT now have QHY268M with filter wheel. 2 different mindsets of capture and processing, with mono being for versatile of course. I agree, you will spend a lot more $ getting set up with a mono camera, filterwheel, and filters, AND you will need to learn some new skills with preprocessing, stacking etc that you wont need to do with OSC. I also agree that the mono camera gives me more detail, and overall better pics...but takes more time, and patience to acquire the data.

@NebulaPhotos 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Greg! Glad you liked it. Did you keep the 268C? It can be nice to have both options available, but I also see the desire to streamline, and just have one nice setup.

@gomanastro 2 жыл бұрын

@@NebulaPhotos got both, got mono on my esprit 120mm, and just got the color on my Radian Raptor, which I hope to take to a dark sky next week. OSC is nice and simplifies things like shooting the moon/eclipses and comets too. I haven't used it in a while, so looking forward to results on Rho Ophiuchi, 2 panel mosaic.

@AstroLaVista 2 жыл бұрын

Such a contentious subject the age old debate of Mono verses OSC but that was brilliantly explained I thought and I especially like the nerdy bits! I've not done mono since a camera called the Brightstar Mammut existed some years back, but I remember thinking it was awesome at the time. kind of addicted to my L-Enhance filter now days though.

@NebulaPhotos 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Chris! I resisted picking up an L-eNhance for a couple years, but now that I have one I totally see the appeal!

@peterlaubscher3989 2 жыл бұрын

Great images - certainly looks like a camera to consder.

@acerimmeh 2 жыл бұрын

I just bought the QHY168C, looking forward to your review on that and recommended gain/offset settings.

@geldingmakr 2 жыл бұрын

Very cool video. Coincidentally I just shot the Squid 🦑 for the first time; with my mono camera 📸 🤩😀 I like the narrowband with mono, but LRGB tends to be a bigger hassle for me. Great point about the clouds and potentially only getting one filter completed.

@chrisoriordan6975 2 жыл бұрын

Great video Nico, you took something we took for granted, explained its not as easy as we thought and then made it simple again 😀 I think I get the benefit in bortle 8/9 which requires narrowband and therefore mono wins out. Is it a closer call in say bortle 4/5 ?

@NebulaPhotos 2 жыл бұрын

Definitely a closer call. If you look back to my $100 to $10,000 video that was done from Bortle 4. The differences on the Lagoon and trifid between a modified DSLR and a QHY268M shooting LRGB were pretty small. Many people even commented saying they preferred the DSLR shot.

@peterlaubscher3989 2 жыл бұрын

Those rotation screws are another excellent idea!

@03roush1 2 жыл бұрын

Nice video Nico, Very informative. I think OSC is better for beginners 🤣. before stepping up to mono imo

@A_RosnerNZ 2 жыл бұрын

One thing I feel you didn't cover - I recently moved from a DSLR to a mono QHY cam with the filter wheel. I had been using a Star Tracker but pretty soon after that I upgraded to a GoTo mount, since the SGP didn't allow for the exact framing I needed when doing multi-night projects. Then, pretty soon after that, I had to get a focuser, for the reasons you pointed out in the video. So you might say as well as the filter wheel and the set of 7 filters, you'll also need a Goto mount and focuser to avoid mono imaging being frustrating.

@OAPMrTickle Жыл бұрын

I've been wondering whether to get a mono or colour camera. Then I found out that a set of filters costs as much as another camera! Wondering no longer.

@HEXZ0R- 2 жыл бұрын

lets goo!!

@peterlaubscher3989 2 жыл бұрын

That foot is an excellent feature and I hope all manufacturers will adopt this feature :)

@NebulaPhotos 2 жыл бұрын

I was unsure about it at first, but I grew to like it after actually using it.

@zaphus 2 жыл бұрын

All we need is for the manufacturers to create a one-shot-narrowband camera, with a colour matrix using Ha and Oiii (or Ha, Oiii, Sii, and L) - no filters :-)

@LRCYuTu 2 жыл бұрын

Have you ever went to highland lighthouse to do some shots? I found it absolutely amazing spot!

@iForbiddenn 2 жыл бұрын

Can’t wait to catch my first premiere since becoming a fan :D

@AstroDenny 2 жыл бұрын

I recently stepped into mono imaging and I can honestly say I'm on the fence with it. Results are better but I'm not sure if they're good enough to justify the added workflow. Very cool video though. I have to say that I like the QHY hardware but I'm not a fan of their software.

@rockymountainastro1239 2 жыл бұрын

That opinion may change when you start getting into the workflow a bit more.. truly is a huge difference.

@alpsalish Жыл бұрын

I think you nailed it.

@orionm4268 2 жыл бұрын

Mono is the #1(Mono) way to go for flexibility and better sensitivity.

@davidjames4915 2 жыл бұрын

I do find it odd that mono astro cameras are more expensive than their colour brethren given that the OSC cameras actually have a sophisticated sensor filter that the mono cameras don't have. The only other sensor filter on the camera market in relatively widespread use is that of the X-Trans in the Fujifilm cameras, which are even more green-biased than a Bayer filter (but, intriguingly, Fujifilm cameras don't have a low-pass filter so they actually pick up red nebulosity better than unmodded Canons, Nikons and Sonys). I've sometimes wondered why there isn't a dedicated red-biased astro sensor filter (i.e. reverse the green and red shares of the Bayer filter, or indeed better still reverse them on an X-Trans layout). Or maybe could we have sensors made up of 3x3 rather than 2x2 to equalize the colours. Things could start to get interesting with custom astro sensor filters that incorporate Ha, OIII cells, etc.

@chaozhang2455 2 жыл бұрын

we have the svbony sv405cc ,similar deep sky cooled camera ,can you have a try

@rvoykin Жыл бұрын

With filters like the L-ultimate that are 3nm and cameras like the 2600mc pro that have a QE of 80+% higher than the 1600mm OSC cameras are hard to pass on. I’m either camping in a bortle 2 the week of a new moon or shooting in back yard in bortle 7. When you drive two hours to a dark site to camp and it’s summer and only have 5-6 hours of true night time I love having a OSC that allows me to get an image in one night, getting 6 hours of data in Ha/O3 vs only getting 3 and 3.

@erikmardiste Жыл бұрын

So I use a stock DSLR in suburban Australia just use a ir filter, have recently brought a zwo broadband filter and filter draw, am wondering if I should just us the ir filter or go all out on broadband.

@williamkacensky4796 2 жыл бұрын

Question, is there a way to bypass white lights brilliance to view the source? Excample, someone stands twenty feet in front of you shinning a bright spotlight at you. You cannot see who it is.

@gustavozanini1338 2 жыл бұрын

Hey Nico, i have bought a rokinon 135mm, but the nikon version for use on my canon, because it was very cheap i thinked that was a good idea to use whit a ring adpater, but a saw yout video of $2,000 Astrophotography Kit, and i realize that the nikon version de aperture can be electronically controlled, i just want to now if it has the manual regulation, what i belive the wanser is yes, and if you would tell me if use lens adapter is a good ideia and what rings use.

@dw.in.michigan 2 жыл бұрын

Can you repeat that last filter you mentioned?

@SKYST0RY 7 ай бұрын

How much difference in performance would you anticipate seeing in Bortle 1 or 2?

@southbronxny5727 2 жыл бұрын

Save $500 and go mono with 3nm for city imaging.

@photosbyjosef Жыл бұрын

I was wondering if these types of cameras can be used for large magnification macro photography? These cameras are designed to photograph sometimes things that are very small in the field of view I'm just wondering how that would transpose into the macro world?

@fredmercury1314 Жыл бұрын

How does it differ from the ZWO with the same chip?

@Mandragara 2 жыл бұрын

What about HaRGB. A mono 3nm Ha luminance layer with RGB from another camera. Should be cheaper?

@NebulaPhotos 2 жыл бұрын

I've dabbled in Ha from mono camera and RGB from DSLR/OSC. It's a processing challenge, but can work out. I have some misfires and at least a couple images I like using this method

@davids2000 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Im going to buy a ZWO 533MC. It will be my first dedicated camera. DO you think that will be a good start? Im using it with an ASI air plus

@NebulaPhotos 2 жыл бұрын

Yes, absolutely!

@davids2000 2 жыл бұрын

@@NebulaPhotos Would you please recommend 2 filters that would help for broadband and nebulas for imaging? Have you heard about Antila filters?

@markwiygul6356 Жыл бұрын

Since color cameras have an additional color filter matrix over the top of the sensor, why is it that they cost More rather than Less. It seems the color cameras would be more costly to produce than the mono?

@ThisOne_Astro 2 жыл бұрын

So if I switch my modded canon t7 to mono, will I get better quality then just now have a black and white photo instead of color or does it not do anything different since it’s a dslr

@NebulaPhotos 2 жыл бұрын

You can't switch your Canon t7 to mono, it has a fixed, physical color filter array. The monochrome picture profile in the menu is just a JPEG emulation and offers no benefits since those picture profiles are just processing done to the JPEG and don't effect the raw file in any way. Hope that makes sense

@alexj9111 2 жыл бұрын

Iv'e just bought a spotting scope with 75 times magnification, would I be able to see the ice caps on Mars or see Saturn's rings?, or would I need something more powerful?

@NebulaPhotos 2 жыл бұрын

My guess is you'd be able to make out the general shape of saturn to see there are rings, but won't be able to resolve Cassini division. Mars ice caps: no. Mars is a lot brighter than saturn and will likely just look like a bright red star through a spotting scope.

@alexj9111 2 жыл бұрын

@@NebulaPhotos Thanks.

@Nabby13 2 жыл бұрын

Why is the dark current @ -5C an order of magnitude higher than that for the ASI533?

@NebulaPhotos 2 жыл бұрын

Not sure. My first guess would be measurement error. I've never been able to match the dark current measurements that the camera manufacturers publish when I measure it in PI, but that is probably an issue with that script. Although in this case they are an order of magnitude off between QHY and ZWO's published charts. Curious...🤔

@Veptis Жыл бұрын

Obviously you just get 3 or more mono cameras and scopes. Perhaps even one giant scope and a beam splitter

@tasaki12 7 ай бұрын

are the settings gain: 56 offset: 35 applicable to the asi533mm pro too?? because its the same sensor ?

@NebulaPhotos 7 ай бұрын

No, ZWO uses a different range for their gain, so the equivalent would be gain 100, offset 50

@tasaki12 7 ай бұрын

@@NebulaPhotos wow, thanks immensly. you are the one who inpired me to start astrophotography and the asi533mm pro is the one i wanna get. i currently have a mirroless camera and the samyang 135mm. i'll get the staradventurer gti and ill start imaging. thanks again🙏🙏🙏🙏

@karltheberge3652 Жыл бұрын

How did you managed to connect the filter wheel to the software? I have so many trouble with the driver

@NebulaPhotos Жыл бұрын

Which software are you using? I have it working in NINA and Sequence Generator Pro. Try installing the latest all-in-one pack first, connect the filter wheel to the camera with provided 4-pin cable. Consult this page: www.qhyccd.com/qhycfw3-filter-wheel/ There are links there for updating the firmware and updating the ASCOM driver for the filter wheel that may help with any problems.

@karltheberge3652 Жыл бұрын

@@NebulaPhotos I use nina as well. When I install the normal release, the camera work well but is recognised as a OSC camera. When I use the Beta release I get a mono camera but without filter wheel at all. I try to contact QHY but they do not answer as of today.

@NebulaPhotos Жыл бұрын

@@karltheberge3652 Try with normal release if filter wheel is working. The software recognizing it as OSC shouldn't actually affect the data quality. If you are still having trouble or don't hear back from QHY, let me know and I can continue to try to help.

@karltheberge3652 Жыл бұрын

@@NebulaPhotos Thanks for your help really, you just win yourself a new Patreon. I will use it that way until I can manage to talk with QHY. All function seem to work but NINA debayering function is annoying.

@NebulaPhotos Жыл бұрын

@@karltheberge3652 Thanks Karl! Ah, that is annoying. I could send you the latest 533 camera SDK and instructions for how to install it. I think that would only over-ride the camera driver (to fix the recognizing as OSC problem), but leave the good filter wheel driver alone. Let me know if interested: nicocarver at gmail dot com

@noahhussein8301 2 жыл бұрын

Hello I’m Srry for all the questions you answered for me but I do untracked Astrophotography and it’s really hard to find something that I can do a 2 or 1 second exposure with a 135mm lens do you know any objects I can look out for that is not Orion flame nebula andromeda the seven sisters and California nebula

@NebulaPhotos 2 жыл бұрын

Lagoon+Trifid Nebulae, Sagittarius Star Cloud, Dumbbell Nebula (small, but bright), North America + Pelican Nebulae

@noahhussein8301 2 жыл бұрын

@@NebulaPhotos thank you soooo much I’ll be sure to watch out for them

@yasnac7576 Жыл бұрын

Ok ... We have had three sessions with this camera. Tonight we are getting an alarm on the power supply. Low voltage. I checked the power supply . All ok What is up???? Don't want to return this camera but.... Anything? any help? To correct this fault???

@NebulaPhotos Жыл бұрын

I’ve never seen that. Where is the alarm showing? Is the camera not working?

@andrespineda5458 2 жыл бұрын

Hey Nico! How are you doing? Can I send you an email? I need some help to understand walking noise. It never appeared in my photos until I piggybacked my camera + lens on a vintage C8 a couple of nights ago.

@NebulaPhotos 2 жыл бұрын

Other than using good darks (and possibly 'optimizing' them if you have PI), I'd suggest better polar alignment, taking data over multiple nights, and dithering (if you can). In terms of mitigating it after you see it, the only thing I've found that can sort of work is desaturating it in Photoshop. I show that in my battle with Cuiv video. If you still want to email me: nicocarver at gmail dot com

@andrespineda5458 2 жыл бұрын

@@NebulaPhotos Thanks! I'll do. It is a weird noise pattern.

@andrespineda5458 2 жыл бұрын

@@NebulaPhotos Nico, I did kappa-sigma clipping and the red lines are almost gone.

@deltacx1059 2 ай бұрын

How about a more budget friendly camera?

@NebulaPhotos 2 ай бұрын

I have many videos on my channel on using used, stock DSLRs with no tracker, etc. For example, capturing Andromeda Galaxy with no tracker and Canon 60D: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pr6Tha6g3bq0hps.html Many more of these type of videos sort by 'most popular' and many will come up

@BritishBeachcomber Жыл бұрын

NASA would agree with you. They chose mono with a filter wheel on Mars.

@anata5127 Жыл бұрын

How many hours data do you collect with Mono and Color, if you have the same target?

@NebulaPhotos Жыл бұрын

I'd do the same, as many as possible!

@anata5127 Жыл бұрын

@@NebulaPhotos Yes, everyone try as many as possible. But, for your style of imaging, what is cut off point (for Color and Mono camera? Thus, I think >12h data for color camera from dark side (bortle 16h from city is not worth wasting time. I use L-extreme filter for everything, but galaxies (never tried them). I have no opinion on mono camera. Never used. What is your opinion on these times?

@NebulaPhotos Жыл бұрын

@@anata5127 It is very object dependent. Something like a close-up of Orion Nebula looks pretty good with just 49 minutes: www.astrobin.com/91dh9w/ regardless of color vs. mono. I do have a lot of very long integrations with mono, but that is partly just because with narrowband from the city, it's easier for me to put in the long hours. For instance, this one is 23 hours: www.astrobin.com/17rezi/ but it would look similar at half that, just a bit more noise to deal with.

@anata5127 Жыл бұрын

@@NebulaPhotos I see. Maybe mono is 1.2-1.5 time longer. Do you use dithering? Or you think it is overrated for long integration time? Thanks

@NebulaPhotos Жыл бұрын

@@anata5127 I do use dithering. Every 1 frame for long exposures (5 minutes+) Every 2-3 frames for shorter exposures.

@brutushusse 2 жыл бұрын

Why is a 11x11mm sensor called a 1 inch sensor?

@NebulaPhotos 2 жыл бұрын

That has an interesting history. Both the 1" format and the micro 4/3" get their names from the diameter of the vaccum tubes that used to be used in video cameras. The names stuck even though they truly make no sense anymore

@brutushusse 2 жыл бұрын

Ahh, odd and a bit confusing. Thanks!

@CerberusHD 2 жыл бұрын

I don't really get the naming behind these gears.... Like who the hell remembers and uses "LKAJSF" as a name for a camera????? For specifying I guess it's okay, but for identifying some equipment I think friendlier names would be so much more handy xD

@NebulaPhotos 2 жыл бұрын

In this case, the number is coming from the sensor name (Sony's IMX533) which is why both QHY and ZWO have a ___533. Then usually the last letter C or M is for color or monochrome. In other cases, I have no idea where they get the name. For example why 'ASI1600MM'? The sensor was the Panasonic MN34230. The only company that has bucked the trend occasionally is Atik. They have a CCD camera just called the Atik Infinity - no numbers!

@orionm4268 2 жыл бұрын

Actually for mono imaging of faint nebula, you're going to have to do several nights, I'd prefer the filter drawer considering that, and it reduces weight of the rig.

@stevenharper6394 2 жыл бұрын

I'd prefer not needing to be outside changing things manually lol. Filter wheel wins every time 😊