@Dr. Sean McDowell you do realise that I have to respond to this, I hope. If you wanted to have a chat in person I would be open to that. This is not an apologetic issue-this is about the quality of scholarship and our responsibility as academics in public discourse.

I love Craig Evans and all your archaeology interviews.

As someone who is very closely connected to this story, I am very interested in watching this. The fragments in private collections may be authentic (I don't think so), but even if they are I think the type of investigation and scrutiny that my work has encouraged is beneficial for the possibility of future discoveries, and in the end helps tremendously to ensure the protection of cultural heritage and archaeological sites.

This interview was pretty shocking for all the wrong reasons. In the first place, we should all be very careful about accepting on face value the claims coming from the Dead Sea Scrolls Foundation, who already has a vested interest in the authenticity of these scrolls fragments, having been intimately involved in brokering their sales over the past couple decades. Second, Prof. Evans seems to suggest that I and the team of scholars with which I was working never thought to compare the fragments in private collections with the authentic fragments in Israel. While it is true that the same battery of forensic tests have not been conducted on the original mss-the IAA has up to the point of my last involvement in 2020 declined the same types of examinations-we have done everything within our power to ensure that we know everything we can about the physicality of the originals. I and my colleagues have collected literally hundreds of photographs under microscope of the original mss, with specific close attention to the same features as observed in the suspected forgeries. Several similar features are extant, yes, but nothing even remotely close to what has been studied in depth, reported and published of the suspected forgeries. In addition, we have conducted examinations of other fragments from the same region and period as controls on our investigations. The suggestion that we had not ever even bothered to "look at the unquestionably authentic scrolls" is, frankly, a little insulting. As if this is something no one bothered to do. Third, I find Evans's theory about the dry parchments for purity concerns absurd. The level of deterioration and obvious age of the leather used for the suspected forgeries at the time of their inscription is orders of magnitude higher than for anything we see in the authentic mss. These fragments are fundamentally different from everything in the original finds. In fact, there remain unresolved questions as to whether the suspected forgeries are even parchment, since their physical and chemical composition appears much closer to that of leather used in antiquity for shoes or wine skins, etc. Prof. Evans has puzzlingly pitted himself against the strong stream of academics-palaeographers, scribal specialists, physicists and chemists-who are in quite strong agreement that most of the non-provenanced fragments in private collections like Schøyen's, MOTB, APU, and SWBTS are in fact modern forgeries. Evans is a fantastic New Testament scholar, but the last time I checked, he is not a scientist, nor an archaeologist, and not a specialist in Jewish palaeography. Finally, I don't know why he insisted on concealing my identity for the interview. It is not like any of this is a secret. I have been widely publicised for my part in the handling and study of Dead Sea Scrolls forgeries. I am also mystified that if Prof. Evans indeed has new information, a testable theory or data of any kind about the authenticity of the so-called "post-2002 Dead Sea Scrolls-like fragments," then why is he revealing this here, and not publishing it in an academic journal? Yeah, this is a bewildering interview, to say the least.

Man this one is jammed with fun stuff. Great video.

Awesome discussion!! Thank you for this!!!!

Dr Kipp Davis' first comment below and the following discussion should be pinned. Dr Davis is the unamed person mentioned by Dr Evans early in the interview. Dr McDowell is aware of Dr Davis comments. The fact that the comments are not pinned is curious indeed. If McDowell was interested in genuine academic debate then he would surely want Dr Davis response front and centre. Or perhaps Dr McDowell will Interview Dr Davis and give him the right of relpy.

Love this interview super interesting!!!

I loved this!!!

This was too cool!!!!!!

Great interview!

Yay! Thank you!

Good stuff! I always assumed the professionals had looked at the manuscripts under a microscope. It just goes to show scholars today need to humble themselves when it comes to assessing what manuscripts meant to the living generations that produced, knew each other, and had the complete documents.

Absolutely fascinating interview, Dr. McDowell

Great video

I really enjoy listening to your interviews while I’m working, thank you for your devotion to providing great informative content that’s Christian based!!

This was amazing! I am still undecided on the Jehoash Inscription, but hearing this type of support for the James Ossuary was very encouraging. The new DSS theory was also fascinating. I think this is one of my favorite interviews you have done thus far!

Could you have Dr. Jutta Jokiranta on? She's an Old Testament scholar at the University of Helsinki and a leading scholar in the study of Dead Sea Scrolls.

Great info! Dr Evans makes antiquity sound fascinating!

Sean you are the man! Your work and ministry reaches our millions and helps me to make my faith stronger!

Isso é maravilhoso. Glória a Deus pela vida de Craig Evans e Sean.

Important story about possible fakes being forged. Facinating about James' tomb. McDowell, once again, has his finger on the pulse of what's important, relevant, news worthy, and dear to Christians hearts. Love this guy. Inspired and soboring. Thank you so much Prof McDowell! You seem to have chosen the perfect guest in Dr Evens. Great talk, great guest, great show. God bless you both.

It's truly bizarre that so many biblical scholar "firsts" are reported on some podcast with an implied "trust me bro." You guys know this isn't how real scholarship is done right?

This reminds me a bit of Daniel Wallace's embarrassing attempt in 2012 to ambush Bart Ehrman mid-debate with the (later proved erroneous) announcement that a 1st century fragment of Mark had been found. Especially in the fact both big-surprise claims became public in a fairly sensationalized way, in an apologetics-oriented rather than a scholarly forum, with other scholars in the field blindsided rather than having been collegially approached or having heard about it via scholarly publication. Something of a disappointing surprise from a scholar like Dr Evans.

This was a great interview! I would be curious to know which books of the Bible the fragments in question are from and how it might impact our understanding of either what Scripture says or how early we can date these leather pieces - are they older than P52, for example? Perhaps in a few months' time, when they've had a chance to confirm their authenticity, we can get another interview to discuss these things! 😁

Any update on the Dead Sea Scrolls stuff?

I understand that Dr. Evans has a long history with the scrolls, but genuinely curious, does Dr. Evans have a specialization in something like paleography or epigraphy? Just wondering since aside from issues of provenance, my understanding is that the majority of fragments (at least high profile ones) considered counterfeit have been subjected to paleographic analysis, which, if this is the case, would mean he's contesting that analysis.

SEAN, It would be great if you had Kipp Davis on to talk about a whole bunch of stuff relevant to your KZfaq discussions.

Thank you Dr Evans - thank you, Sean. And thank God someone called out Wikipedia, at last!

Sean, I love your work and I've watched many of your Apologetics videos in the past that got me hooked! Keep the research coming man, I love learning more about the archeological, scientific and historical evidence! God's Word truly is alive and active.

This makes alot of sense. The process of writing religious texts today, as in ancient times for the Jewish people is one that has not changed and they have very specific rites and requirements for the medium with which the scribes write on. And not wanting pagan Egyptian papyrus, regardless of how good it is, is still pagan. Of course the Jewish people, or the "Essenes" a branch of Judaism at the time would have such requirements for their religious texts.

In case you failed to notice @Dr. Sean McDowell, I have released a thorough response to all the distortions and disinformation from Craig Evans about the Dead Sea Scrolls that were featured in this video. I think the prudent, responsible thing to do would be to address these.

Hey Sean, What is your honest opinion?

So Sean, do you buy this? Honest question.

Controversial hot-take: about the James Ossuary, if that is legitimate, then it really does answer the interpretation of "brother of Jesus" found throughout the New Testament. Catholics insist that these brothers (James, Joses, Jude, and Simon) are cousins from either Mary's or Joseph's sister. If the ossuary really is the James talked about in the Bible (and Josephus 20:200), then it's claim "Son of Joseph" really would put that to rest. Perhaps the Eastern Orthodox narrative could still be correct (that these brothers were Joseph's sons from a previous wife before Mary), but it would be a strong argument against Catholicism. Given this case, it could play into why media outlets don't want to address the authenticity of the ossuary. Not only would they be offending Jesus mythicists, but they would even be offending the biggest, wealthiest, and politically most powerful denomination of the entire Christian faith, -probably the biggest organization in the entire world. The only positions they would be saving face with are Protestants and Eastern Orthodox, neither who really view it as very significant. Beyond that, atheists, Muslims, and Jews would be completely neutral to it.

I'm glad it is you Sean to bring this info to your show cause I trust you. Thank you

Is there a reason people can’t do Radio Carbon testing on the ink itself? Would that take care of everything?

I saw the Dead Sea scrolls when they were brought from Israel to the museum in San Diego- one of the museums,...I think it was the museum of science... The entire day was spent going through a wonderful audio and visual walk through tour of the Dead Sea Scrolls that were there and that we could view in person from where they were presented under glass.; and some of them, a significant amount of them were in the open , and was blessed with being able to scrutinize both the ones under glass and the ones in the open. and, was moved to pray while stopped and gazing at a few of them, especially one of them under glass, and God spoke on my heart while at one of them, and answered the prayer that I prayed. The entire thing was amazing to me, and know that was left feeling that coming ans spending time with the Dead Sea scrolls and the Holy Trinity , amongst the many others that came to see them , that seeing them changed me . ( The organizer from church let me ride with him from San Juan Cap. to San Diego museum, told me to go ahead and keep the audio device as no one was there to receive it as we were leaving the museum at the finish , ....and that it was okay to do so. To my devastation, after leaving and on the way back to SJC, he informed that we are supposed to leave the device in the hand of the person that was absent to receive them at the finish, .....- he had purposefully deceived me , as Judas Escariot to me. Upon arriving back to town , in taking the time to find out how to contact the museum , Dead Sea scroll tour rep.... within the same week, phoned them , and was able to speak with someone , and informed of the humiliation and attempted demise of my integrity , character and Christian faith and relationship with God Most High , and inquired how I could get the device to them, (as am without a car) the right party , and she kindly gave me the information for me to be able to send it to them. Then, when next I saw the man 'Judas E.' at church , spoke with him about what he had done to me , and to the Dead Sea Scroll event peoples , and he conveyed as being without remorse, therefore to me , a wolf in sheeps clothing, and or a person who attends church , but is actually unsaved, a sinner,... who seriously sinned against me , therefore against God.

I just recently heard (I don’t remember where…I listen to a ton of KZfaq videos) that James, brother of Jesus, was not really named “James” but something else (I can’t remember what…some other “J” name), so now I’m confused. Can you clear this up for me?

For people interested in the details of the scandal around the "Gospel of Jesus' Wife" forgery, there's a good book called Veritas: A Harvard Professor, A Con Man and the Gospel of Jesus' Wife by Ariel Sabar. It's quite a fascinating and disturbing story

As one scholar I know would put it, I think Dr. Evans is speaking "outside of [his] wheelhouse." That is, he's speaking outside of his area of expertise, which makes his information on the subject of the DSS suspect to begin with. Frankly, I think I'll stick with Dr. Kipp Davis, since this is very much IN his "wheelhouse." While he doesn't address it here, I've seen him tackle the issue of ink in cracks. And it's not just whether or not there's ink in the cracks, but the incredible extent of the ink in the cracks on the forgeries. In other words, there are substantial differences between the actual DSS and the forgeries that are being glossed over. Sorry, Sean, but this is not a good look for you, or for the Christianity you represent.

8:49 That's depressing to hear.

Like father like son, when it comes to fraud.

This is one of the most fascinating interviews I've seen in years

why did you censor southwestern at 15 minute?

Even if we stipulate the dead sea scrolls in the various collections are authentic (they aren't), and they were perfectly translated into your favorite bible (they aren't), this does nothing to address the question of whether what they say is actually true. It merely says that the writings existed way back then, nothing more.

So, according to Simcha Jacobovici this Box was missing from the Talpiot Tomb. The "family tomb of Jesus" Is that true?

Have you ever thought about making videos of discussion-highlights? :)

So what does it matter for Christianity if these fragments, sold illegally to a cillector, are fake or real? It´s the same stuff you find in many copies on the original scrolls. The title is just a click bait.

If the leather "Is" considered genuine by the experts on its age. My question would be: How does someone today find or purchase 2,000 year old leather with which to create "fake" version of the dead sea scrolls? And if somehow you did, would not the cost of that leather be crazy expensive? But the odds that anyone would have 2,000 year old leather in their shed is kinda crazy in its theory. Don't see that happening.

I pray God leads us to the truth on this issue and that we keep Jesus first regardless of varying stances. :)

10:08 I was first thinking the human DNA from the people 2,000 years ago, but then realized it was probably the DNA from those who discovered and handled it.

I have a prayer request: Please pray that the Lord would guide me to the truth. I am a Southern Baptist who is for the first time in his life is considering Catholicism. I just want to be guided by the Spirit and led to the truth. Please pray for me!

What Evans is evading is that the initial items that caught the teams skepticism was not the cracked leather, but the poor lettering that would have never been done by a scribe, letters written as though they appear to purposely avoid imperfections in the leather which you don't see on other texts found there, and sentences written at odd angles showing very poor skills, again not scribal work level you see in other dead seas scrolls. Then you add the fact that there is deep ink pooling which which you don't find on other dead sea scroll texts as their pooling was very minor and the leather not has old when written upon. All of these things were factors in the team's conclusion on the authenticity of the fragments, not just leather questions. I am curious if Dr. Evans will state publicly if he is a trained dead sea scroll scholar and whether he has ever gone to Israel and viewed dead sea scroll fragments from the Qumram caves under a microscope. I ask because the idea of just looking at a few sheets of leather from dead sea scroll texts and comparing them to the leather on the Norway fragments is not how science is done. That's how we in the cattle call half assed things. And to insinuate that politics should be involved is why the U.S. ranks near the low in education because you want to spend time trying to bring politics into science where it doesn't belong. And the pandemic is a perfect example where a president of a large country doesn't listen to science and 100,000's of people's blood is now on his hands. If we were to leave science in the hands of people like Dr. Evans, I would certainly feel sad for this country. I think, Mr. McDowell, you might want to get more investigating done on guest before you have them come on or they will make you look bad to your audience, though I don't know your show or audience, this is just a topic that interests me in a scholarly way as I am not a believer (full disclosure).

This has been great! I loved it. I'm still skeptical of the James Ossuary. It just seems too fantastic. I'm also not so sure about an ossuary sitting on a secular Jew's bookcase and he never asked what was written on it. I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm sure there are plenty of Jews who know little to nothing about Jesus.

❤

Fake or not, does it matter? Do the disputed fragments mention Jesus or anything after His birth?

Ask him about the shroud of turin

No mention of the ink. The skins may be 2k yrs old, but the ink? How now brown cow?

🤔👍

That's total BS and you know it. What specialist releases news like this on a hokey apologist site?

Craig kind of loses me when he starts talking about the James ossuary. Now he's talking about things I actually know more about. This is not nearly as cut and dry and Craig presents it. Makes me take his comments on the DSS with a grain of salt now.

Sean's face should be a meme: keep bs'ing me and I'll keep pretending i believe you PS- this is how you intimidate someone into compliance in front of anyone

I want to know if Sean could lift that Thor's hammer behind him. 😊

We have the war scroll?

Wow! Just a testament to how little we know, how small our brains are and how important faith is.. Holy Spirit will guide us into Truth!

The dead sea scrolls were outed as fakes almost as soon as they were found.

I love reading Craig Evan’s stuff! Very important voice in the Church today and a solid dude in public and private.

Yikes. Dr McDowell should have vetted Dr Evans more carefully before giving him this forum.

Its good to remember our predictive ability is even still used in our lives and our sciences today. great minds and philosophers was just one level from being prophetically touched by God in those times. If anything the gospels didn't use as many past prophecies that came true that they could've used. The most amazing prophecies they had Like how a son of benjiman was known to come and how that could be the key to how Paul may have been able to step in with authority of an already established ministry is one many correlations they believed in. I assume these where so common knowledge it wouldve been initially why so many followed. You can pick n choose traditions and interpretations that is better for apologetics vs humanist but the actual tradition that would become Christianity was deeply spiritual and not as practical as many think. This was the big split that the Assyrians caused in 800 bc long before Babylonians but the return definitely displaced the temple and exaggerated the division. You can read in Solomon how they where it still in it's original form of seeing the soul of others more so than the looks of the exterior. They definitely was into spiritual warfare.

So many tricks like these methods have been used by catholic monks over the centuries too 😑

The last 20 years it's been great to see actual scholars who care taking back the field of biblical archaeology.. In late 1800s even the father of egyptology in petre was on the right track but was disparagarded on every biblical related find. We should never forget how much set back was created by the Rockefeller backed digs in the early and mid 1900s. What damage was done by the Frankfurt German linages that still dominates most liberal academics that simply work as polymics and if you want a phd you have to go through them most often. If your as old as I am you know where they had us 50 years ago and to now where we are in knowledge now is unexcusable and definitely unjust .

The fact that he says it is a done deal and we know they are not fake based on the evidence he has presented marks him as either a Christian Apologist or a Charlatan who is trying to drum up sales for a cache of forgeries perhaps for a commission rather than an honest Academic. He has presented absolutely nothing that rises to the level of proof. Also, if he was a real academic, he would have written up a paper, submitted it to a journal for peer review rather than announce it on an Apologists KZfaq Channel (sorry Sean, but the process of Academics is the process of Academics).

Good topic and I appreciate Dr Davis chiming in. That said, I wonder how long these animal skins sat around and if that has any bearing on Carbon Dating? I've followed Robert Eisenman for a while and his early 1st Century dating of some of the sectarian scrollsI've always found intriguing.

Please pin Dr Kipp Davis comment below

Just lies, basically. Even if what he is saying turns out to be true, he is still lying by omission and exaggeration. I can place money on it, that if other members of the people he were researching these documents were here, they would not only take offence at his claims but also provide a reasonable counter argument.

The Dead Sea Scrolls make no mention of Jesus, the famous son of god.

Dr Evans, do you know you can edit and fix Wikipedia articles yourself? Please try it instead of just complaining.

Nah, cockamamie. They wouldn't want to write on cracked leather.

ALL FAKE

I seem to remember that you, Sean, have been excited about the earliness of the Mark fragment, disappointed with the news that it may have been a fake, and now cautiously optimistic about it being genuine. Hopefully, all are genuine, but either way, we know that Jesus is genuine!

As we all have no seen Sean has NOT had the most obvious person on to interview and consider these matters further. This demonstrates the complete lack of credibility of his channel, the severe lack of integrity in his own person - and exposes what he really is - a huckster, a grifter - looking for clicks and especially the click of his real god - the Almighty Dollar .... sad... Like father, like son

It’s all BS…

I wouldn’t trust Dr Evan’s as far as I could throw him.

Listening to this video made my suspicious and that a lot of his enthusasim is sensationalism. Interesting to see how this develops. In light of @kippdavis2368 comments will pull this video or have a follow up?

Sean - what does it matter. this does not prove the bible is from a God in heaven! We live in such a matrix of deceit. Whatever, higher power is in charge is having a heyday watching all the confusion especially from the christians. Christians like sean and evans who get paid well and live very comfortably spinning fairytales.

ALL FAKE