The Men - and Boys - Are Not Alright

Рет қаралды 17,932

Жыл бұрын

In 1972, when Congress passed Title IX to tackle gender equity in education, men were 13 percentage points more likely to hold bachelor’s degrees than women; today women are 15 points more likely to do so than men. The median real hourly wage for working men is lower today than it was in the 1970s. And men account for almost three out of four “deaths of despair,” from overdose or suicide.
These are just a sample of the array of dizzying statistics that suffuse Richard Reeves’s book “Of Boys and Men (www.brookings.edu/book/of-boy...) .” We’re used to thinking about gender inequality as a story of insufficient progress for women and girls. There’s a good reason for that: Men have dominated human societies for centuries, and myriad inequalities - from the gender pay gap to the dearth of female politicians and chief executives - persist to this day.
But Reeves’s core argument is that there’s no way to fully understand inequality in America today without understanding the ways that men and boys - particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds - are falling behind.
So I wanted to have Reeves on the show to take a closer look at the data on how men and boys are struggling and explore what can be done about it. We discuss how the current education system places boys at a disadvantage; why boys raised in poverty are less likely than girls to escape it; the fact that female students are twice as likely to study abroad and serve in the Peace Corps as their male peers; Reeves’s policy proposal to have boys start school a year later than girls; why so few men are entering professions like teaching, nursing and therapy - and what we can do about it; why so many boys look to figures like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate for inspiration; what a better social “script” for masculinity might look like and more.
Mentioned:
"Gender Achievement Gaps in U.S. School Districts (files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ...) " by Sean F. Reardon, Erin M. Fahle, Demetra Kalogrides, Anne Podolsky and Rosalia C. Zarate
"Redshirt the Boys (www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...) " by Richard Reeves
Book recommendations:
"The Tenuous Attachments of Working-Class Men (pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdf/10.12...) " by Kathryn Edin, Timothy Nelson, Andrew Cherlin and Robert Francis
Career and Family (press.princeton.edu/books/har...) by Claudia Goldin
The Life of Dad (www.simonandschuster.co.uk/bo...) by Anna Machin
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-k...) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-... (www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...) .
“The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Sonia Herrero. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carol Sabouraud and Kristina Samulewski.

Пікірлер: 123

@kevinafachao4445 Жыл бұрын

It is interesting how many people are aware of the data, and just seem unconcerned.

@rypb16 6 ай бұрын

Because it’s men. Male problems are laughable for some

@EricMHowardII-yh1rn 6 ай бұрын

Jordan B Peterson fills a gap of indifference. Les Brown fills a gap of indifference Richard V Reeves fills a gap of indifference . Joe Rogan fills a gap of indifference. Rush Limbaugh filled a gap of indifference.

@katenoke1571 5 ай бұрын

@@EricMHowardII-yh1rnwith ignorance and rage. That's not an answer

@EricMHowardII-yh1rn 5 ай бұрын

Indifference concerning the struggles of Boys and Men need answers free from the spirit of not caring . Race and class insection makes indifference worse.

@katenoke1571 5 ай бұрын

@@EricMHowardII-yh1rn I have two grown sons. I raised them to be able to articulate and deal with emotions. They're fine. The toxic "man up" culture that's promoted in this country isn't helpful to boys

@obtain60 6 ай бұрын

While Ezra and Richard do a good job pointing how conservatism has lacked a complete message for these lost boys can be redeemed, they really failed to place accountability of how liberalism has made this problem so much worse. Modern left-wing policy and messaging IS a zero-sum game. If we say "we are focusing on X" than you are by definition not focused on Y. Liberalism needs to return to "how do we give everyone an equal opportunity" versus "how do we promote group X" if they want legitimacy on this topic.

@sylvanwoods5271 3 ай бұрын

Blame games solve nothing.

@EricMHowardII-yh1rn 3 ай бұрын

Learning how to detect a spirit of indifference concerning the struggles of Boys and Men needs to be addressed truthfully. Becoming indifferent about the struggles of Boys and Men is not the answer. Girls and Women did not have a larger society displaying indifference concerning their situation at all.

@lucindabreeding 9 күн бұрын

Slightly off topic: It seems as though we are watching as conservatives, whether they are political or religious conservatives and fundamentalists in America, try to claw back the progress women have made. There is a huge amount of anxiety among conservatives over the fact that children growing up right now can look around their classrooms and see different kinds of families. Some of their peers are being raised by single mothers. A small number of their classmates are growing up in households headed by same-sex couples. These children are looking around and seeing that it is very possible for families to be loving and healthy without a patriarch ruling over the family. As someone who grew up in a religious family and graduated from a Southern Baptist university, I know that for some conservatives, there is a belief that if you are born male, your birthright is moral and legal authority over all women, all children, and most lower status men. For some of these conservatives, this knowledge is subconscious. For others - especially the fundamentalists - this is explicit and is the organizing principal of their lives and communities. Now that they see growing numbers of women developing their careers, delaying marriage and childhood - or foregoing marriage and childhood altogether- and buying a house before they are married, some conservative men realize their children might challenge them about men having this birthright. I'm seeing a lot of comments claim that there is indifference about Reeves observations. I don't think that's true. I think we are living in a politically reactionary moment that is trying to reimpose biological prescriptions onto the lives of women so that men might be the king of the castle again. And I have seen a whole menu of policy solutions suggested that could really help men regain their footing. Unfortunately , I don't see a lot of support from men for policies I think could actually make a difference.

@EricMHowardII-yh1rn 3 ай бұрын

The waves of Indifference concerning the struggles of Boys and Men can not be ignored anymore. The good news is some women do care about the struggles of Boys and Men. The monthly unemployment rates do not have the whole story anymore. The American federal government does not care about boys and men. Long term unemployment Mental health fitness challenges. Deaths of despair. The data on these issues does not exist at all .

@lucindabreeding 9 күн бұрын

The data does exist, though.

@EricMHowardII-yh1rn 6 ай бұрын

Indifferent is more problematic than hate . For American society. Lack of Caring about struggles of boys and men. Amounts to indifferent. Mass confusion among Boys and Men Indifferent leads to death of despair, and disconnection. Checking out of society red flag of indifferent. Solutions are needed now . Richard V Reeves needs to talk about more solutions to develop a new transcript for males in the twenty first century.

@katenoke1571 5 ай бұрын

Only in families that enforce gender stereotypes. My two 29-something sons are doing just fine

@EricMHowardII-yh1rn 5 ай бұрын

Glad to hear that your family members did not have to deal anything about educational struggles.

@katenoke1571 5 ай бұрын

@@EricMHowardII-yh1rn dire we did. My daughter has a learning disability. Also a master's degree

@lucindabreeding 9 күн бұрын

Can you think of a single policy our Congress could craft and sign into law that would help men and boys? And do you think men would appreciate and act on that policy?

@EricMHowardII-yh1rn 6 ай бұрын

Mr Richard V. Reeves Thank you for talking about the tipping point of confusion for boys and men . Please talk about this drama truthfully. Regardless of race. ❤❤❤❤❤❤

@EricMHowardII-yh1rn 2 ай бұрын

Boys who are struggling educationally need to have classrooms of their own where they can talk personal concerns without dealing with the harsh judgements of Girls.

@runeingebretsen8378 10 ай бұрын

no wife,no respect,no children and somehow people are suprised men no longer care. you got to be kidding me

@katenoke1571 5 ай бұрын

Off they go to live free lives. What's the problem? Like women, they can rely on their friends. Women don't need to take care of everyone

@turtleanton6539 5 ай бұрын

Indeed

@showdog49 3 ай бұрын

Many can’t rely on friends either. Men and boys have a male friendship problem as well.

@lucindabreeding 9 күн бұрын

How would the lack of a wife, a child, or a job account for the falling academic performance of boys who are obviously too young to have any of those things?

@runeingebretsen8378 9 күн бұрын

@@lucindabreeding you just answered you own question,men don't care to get high paying jobs or a high education anymore,and work long hours for a wife and children they no longer want or can get,what's the point,men did this in the past for their wife and children,take that away,and what's the point,why is women so suprised to learn this fact,it has allways worked that way,that is why men has created a society for women,is this new news for women.

@avlasting3507 6 ай бұрын

"All scholarship is at least partly autobiographical." So true and central to the Shakespeare authorship matter.

@TaureanDreams Жыл бұрын

Great show!

@dweller6065 5 ай бұрын

Judging by papers I read, American academics have been fixated with race to explain differences in access and health outcomes. Less examined is the role played by differences in economic/social class, which are of more interest to scholars in the UK and Australia.

@lucindabreeding 9 күн бұрын

In America it's really hard to separate issues of social and economic class from our racial history. So much of our economic policy was explicitly racist, and it's still being felt even today.

@theexplorer_31 5 ай бұрын

The discussions on new books saves our time. We can't find any time to this important subject due to daily jobs we are all in. At least we can hear the main idea of the book.

@spencerantoniomarlen-starr3069 Ай бұрын

This was a great conversation.

@sincerityissacred5101 4 ай бұрын

Still many more men in some of the highest paying careers (engineering notably) --for whatever reason.

@davissae 6 ай бұрын

The breakdown of the nuclear family unit, particularly in minority communities, has left boys with no positive role models. No wonder they are struggling with purpose and direction.

@katenoke1571 5 ай бұрын

As opposed to when they used to get beaten to a pulp by abusive fathers before no fault divorce

@lucindabreeding 9 күн бұрын

I've always been puzzled as to why divorced fathers tend to drift out of their children's lives post divorce. I have also noticed in my own life that divorced fathers will often spend more time and personal resources on their stepchildren than they do on their own children. I suppose some of that could be a bad relationship with a mother of their children. But even the divorced women in my social circle who say their co-parenting relationships are generally positive, the dads just seem less involved. Even when they live within 5 minutes of the kid. I recall reading some recent data that in heterosexual marriages, fathers have very little contact with their adult children as compared to their wives. This tracks for me personally. I haven't spoken to my father on the phone in at least 10 years. Everything he knows about my life he gets through my mom. My father has expended little to no effort to maintain our relationship. He doesn't call, he doesn't write, he doesn't reach out at all. And I had a really good childhood.

@drekmastermind 3 ай бұрын

The conversation is focused on institutions but its cultural. Post WW2 Culture swung to pressure women to be both a mother and a career woman which created immense pressure on them to essentially do 150% of what is reasonable. Then it dismantled the aspirational models of men without replacing them with something positive. So all you are left with is two sides that seem like they fail in their roles in society. Women just can't be mothers and have careers that are on par with men without sacrificing family and men do not have a path to positive social recognition as before. Essentially we ask to much of women and do not recognize the value in efforts of men. Mixed with an individualistic zeitgeist all that is left is imploding inwards. Be it social media, gaming, compulsive consumerism or masturbation. Don't blame Facebook or Amazon... they are not the cause of the issues, they are the outlet of societal decay. But I guess that we all need to change doesn't sound like a solution while changing schools curriculums does. The real solution would be around relationships. Go out there, tell a woman that she is doing more than enough and is appreciated and go tell a man that his accomplishments are real and appreciated. That they don't need to be this impossibly perfect human nor are their selection of a partner.

@raeperonneau4941 2 ай бұрын

Well said.

@petepruitt7196 2 ай бұрын

Always amazed that conversations like this ignore one of the single largest influences on education. Attitude. When I was younger, our roll models might have been Andy Taylor or John Walton. The next generation had Al Bundy and Homer Simpson. We quit trying. Don’t worry, everyone is as uneducated as you!

@EricMHowardII-yh1rn 5 ай бұрын

The struggles of Boys and Men is occurring because of indifference. American society may be saying we don't care about boys and men. This madness needs to stop.

@EricMHowardII-yh1rn 6 ай бұрын

Boys and Men are dealing with a strong sense of confusion in connection to educational learning, employment goals and dreams, Family Life value of becoming dad's. Mass confusion issues need to be addressed truthfully now . Otherwise this situation will get worse. Male students are saying we are confused about educational learning, and employment goals and plans Family Life value of becoming dad's we are outta here bye ! Check out time starts now .

@katenoke1571 5 ай бұрын

This is most evident in poor red states. This needs research

@geeem7889 28 күн бұрын

While I don't doubt that boys and men do have struggles, I still see men getting paid more than women on average for doing the same job. Also, if a woman becomes a single mother, her net worth will go down and she is more likely to end up in poverty while a guy's net worth actually goes up. So...there's something missing here.

@EricMHowardII-yh1rn 4 ай бұрын

Educational gap College graduate rate ten percent lower for men . 15 percent lower for boys.

@davidrosen2869 Жыл бұрын

~10:00 Neither Ezra Klein nor Richard Reeves understand the intersectional lens. Men being meaningfully and systemically disadvantaged in important dimensions of life is not a possibility in the intersectional framework. Reeve's observations should actually be a major anomaly for intersectional theory (if intersectional scholars were at all honest.)

@andrewsmith3257 9 ай бұрын

Intersectional feminism? Yeah no men are totally systemically disadvantaged in modernity. Defend your position

@IshtarNike 7 ай бұрын

This isn't accurate. His analysis IS intersectional and accounts for the fact that ALL other things being equal being male is usually an advantage. But when you add in race and class, you find men of these minority groups doing significantly worse. The gap between the genders of the affluent is not very significant. However, when you average things out, the gap between men and women in these aspects is real in so far as the intersectional identities go, which is quite far considering lower middle and lower class people make up the vast majority of the population. That means all the men in these categories are at significant risk of falling behind.

@davidrosen2869 7 ай бұрын

@@IshtarNike "His analysis IS intersectional and accounts for the fact that ALL other things being equal being male is usually an advantage. But when you add in race and class, you find men of these minority groups doing significantly worse. The gap between the genders of the affluent is not very significant." You seem to be caught in a bit of a contradiction. For men to have an advantage 'ALL other things being equal', they would have to be doing better on average than women of the same class and race. That's what 'ALL other things being equal' means. It means the same race, same class, and same everything else. Yet you then state that the gender differences are negligible among the affluent and only significantly cut against men among the lower class (and among certain races, which is debatable). There doesn't seem to be too much room left for men to have an advantage. That doesn't even get to the issue of in what sense is being male 'usually an advantage'. It's an advantage in some domains of life. But the domains that it does not show at least an empirical advantage include: life expectancy and the majority of health outcomes, educational attainment, treatment by the justice system...honestly, if you want a reliable heuristic for finding gender disparities that cut against men, ask yourself "what are some disparities that are taken as evidence of systemic racism" and then look at the same disparity separated by gender. There will be some exceptions (e.g. wealth), but I bet you'd find there is a striking degree of symmetry between blackness and maleness in this regard. But again, the intersectional lens does not allow for meaningful disparities that hurt men. It has one outcome variable: oppression and then says 'But we can have a multitude of independent variables: race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. that determines one's degree of oppression.' And oppression can be whatever is convenient, but it certainly cannot be something that disproportionately harms men, who are axiomatically the oppressor class in this lens. The intersectional model cannot be stretched to integrate the empirical facts that Reeves is examining here. It's just not within the model's topology.

@amygirl9534 6 ай бұрын

Soooo it took two hours for two guys to come to the conclusion that the reason the boys "are not alright" is because our culturally mediated examples of masculinity are kinda messed up 🙄Another note -- on this idea that masculinity is somehow more of a "fragile" social construct because men don't have babies: There are plenty of women now who reject constructing their identities around motherhood. Many of us have made a hard pass on it along with marriage. Which means our identities might rely a little bit more on work and acheivements and all that, but still not as much as men's for some reason. Like I'm one of those women and I certainly wouldn't feel "lost" or "unneeded" if I lost my job (stressed economically though). Why the difference?🤷‍♀ Why am I as a woman somehow able to access a greater sense of identity and self-worth, even without the role of raising a family? I just think that's interesting and kind of blows up his theory.

@jbshbsskskhbs6713 6 ай бұрын

you're right this issue is about you and how you experience the world

@joythought 5 ай бұрын

Does it blow up his theory or reinforce it? I am happy for counter-arguments but your statement and the lives of the younger generations in my family show boys being fragile and uncertain and girls being go-getters start to finish. I think a hypothesis people don't seem to consider is that women are equal to men in smarts and ahead of men in most of the ways that matter today: communication, networking, organisation, impulse control, ability to balance competing concerns and less anti-social instincts. That sets them up better for a hyper-connected world that embraces everyone and forgets nothing posted online.

@katenoke1571 5 ай бұрын

I completely agree. If my husband died before me I would be fine on my own, but if I died first he couldn't be alone

@dragonbeardable 5 ай бұрын

This dudes a joke. "I have my own problems with Peterson"... He doesn't realize that that literally doesnt matter becuase young men like Peterson and Tate.

@ankra12 4 ай бұрын

That is a problem for men/boys. Learning to not take responsibility for your own life and blame it on others instead.

@MissBrennan Жыл бұрын

I stopped listening when Ezra tried to say that society looks at inequality as an individual’s problem rather than a societal structure problem ONLY when we’re talking about men but minorities and women we look at it as an individual capability problem. This is so inaccurate it’s not even funny.

@71nxy47 Жыл бұрын

He ain’t lying.

@user-gd7ph4fj6w 10 ай бұрын

I’m confused and maybe ignorant. When else does society look at inequality of a group looked at as an individual problem? Also a few mins later Ezra brings up how America looked at the problems black people faced was their “crack” or “dead beat father” problem back in the day. Which still persists today a bit.

@rypb16 6 ай бұрын

Did you listen to Richard response?

@joythought 5 ай бұрын

Wow, you gave up on his straw man argument which he was happy to see Richard push back on. Your male fragility in action is probably keeping you out of all kinds of opportunities for deeper understanding. I am teasing gently so don't be too hard on yourself.

@marwar819 6 ай бұрын

As an adult woman, I think Rogan and Tate are utterly vulgar. Hope boys don't grow up thing that respectable girls/women are attracted to that.

@jbshbsskskhbs6713 6 ай бұрын

Many are growing up to no longer care what women are attracted to, and instead seeing what is in their best interests.

@katenoke1571 5 ай бұрын

@@jbshbsskskhbs6713good. Women don't need them, honestly

@dragonbeardable 5 ай бұрын

Rogan??? What did he ever do? .... You don't care about young men at all..

@benjaminfranklin8412 6 ай бұрын

The first question should have been "Should men be allowed to compete in the women's category upin sports?" If the answer is anything other than no, then that speaker doesn't really care about men or women.

@katenoke1571 5 ай бұрын

You have an agenda, I see 😂

@benjaminfranklin8412 5 ай бұрын

@@katenoke1571 I do. Misogyny needs to be destroyed

@caseymckenzie4760 9 ай бұрын

Careerist hacks love following orders.

@missariej Жыл бұрын

I think many of these points go to societal pressures that tell women they are on a clock that they need to beat. While, men are told throughout their lives to take their time.

@AtomLabX Жыл бұрын

I do not know where you live, but here, everyone is in a race, men or women... I never heard someone said, oh you are a man, take your time, as a matter of fact it is the other way around.

@Migwelp Жыл бұрын

Not at all. Men are told they need to grind and essentially have their entire lives together by the time they're 25-28. Prime earning years are ticking and because they're traditionally the heads of households, that's a massive weight on our shoulders. There's a reason male suicide is so high. No meaningful relationship + Financial hardship + Dependency on any vice (liquor/drugs) = Death.

@eirikbelisarius1100 8 ай бұрын

Now you are just making up stuff. Women has to always be the victims... No matter what the data tells us. Schools are built for girls, I'm a teacher so I know. This is a very complicated question, so there is no one reason. As a teacher I see that girls are more adapted to the pedagogy of today. Less rigid than it used to be. Boys are in general more creative and need more help to establish structure.

@katenoke1571 5 ай бұрын

@@Migwelpnot anymore. Young men work from home. They want to be equal partners

@ankra12 4 ай бұрын

@@Migwelpwho tells them that?

@fromafricaicame5909 7 ай бұрын

Why redshirt boys when you can have single sex schools

@joythought 5 ай бұрын

Past evidence has shown girls doing well in single sex environments but less so boys. I went to both and I think that the University dropout he interviewed was right: as a guy you want to find a group of women to study with because they are onto it. So, single sex schools may suit individuals and may suit girls in general but they probably don't help many boys who could benefit from the influence of girls demonstrating better organisation and focus on their studies

@fromafricaicame5909 5 ай бұрын

@@joythought boys do fine in all boys schools, the elite schools in the UK are still single sex and not co-ed, I'll have to look into it

@caseymckenzie4760 9 ай бұрын

Why did you stop taking your boosters? Your favorite dr Hotez is still recommending them? Shame on you, shame shame.

@caseymckenzie4760 9 ай бұрын

Glad to see nobody is listening to this establishment propaganda channel.

@leslietucker2656 Жыл бұрын

I think society could benefit from women being the dominant gender for awhile, especially in areas of decision-making power.

@AtomLabX Жыл бұрын

You are missing the point. Helping black people, didn't hurt the white people. Giving women the right to vote, didn't affect the right to vote of men. Making it equal for all gender and minorities to get into schools, didn't hurt white people. Ending separation of black and white at work, school, church, didn't white people. Allowing everyone to open a shop, didn't hurt the shop owners, as a matter of fact, it made it better for everyone. So when we say, help me, it is not one or the other, you do not pick and choose. Having a group of people and giving warm blankets to certain people and leaving others, is not equality, and as far as I know, ain't that what we are aiming for? And I will give you one extra: You always hear women saying, oh where are the good men, I can not seem to have or find a good man, and why do you think that is? You have a bunch males, no going to school, not being educated, lonely, sad, and above all angry, with a system that is against them more or less. That is a recipe for disaster, and you'll get the worst type of males, the once who do crimes, attack women, and children instead of protecting them. Why do you think we have so many school shootings recently? Yes, guns are one reason, but the gun didn't grow legs, and walked by itself to a school and delete 3 children, that was carried by a person. Now, imagine that person is in school, like UC Berkely for example, learning how to read and write and how to think and speak, then you have someone who is bringing good. Helping men, doesn't mean leaving women behind, and not the other way around.

@MissBrennan Жыл бұрын

Yeah, until women are ready to start families and they are looking for strong, confident, capable men who make more $ and find they have been replaced by emasculated, nihilistic dropouts. Great father figures! Now she’s the breadwinner and has an extra adult child to take care of. Great plan!

@apieceofmymind Жыл бұрын

@@MissBrennan Many women (myself included) have opted OUT of marriage and children. It's a scam.

@adriennequill9510 Жыл бұрын

I could agree, but do not have kids.

@stephenkaiser9780 11 ай бұрын

I rarely write negative comments. Please watch Bear Grylls, when the competition is segregated by gender. I believe this demonstrates the negative aspects of an "all female " regime. ( by no means is full on testosterone 100% of the time any better) Perhaps a happy medium?

@caseymckenzie4760 9 ай бұрын

This is unbearably boring. Alother problem the MSM has (besides being establishment propaganda) is bieng increadibly pedantic and predictable.

@ankra12 4 ай бұрын

So Why are you listning to it then?

@caseymckenzie4760 4 ай бұрын

because I like to hear what the establishment oligarchs are trying to brainwash people with. @@ankra12

@NateOllievere-jg1rr 11 ай бұрын

JOHN 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.