No joke. They were better than today in many, many ways. People always like to believe we are the sum total of all who came before, but it's incorrect. Those guys back then were badass, they were compelled to be great.

I keep saying! If Hillary was able to summit, there's absolutely no way Mallory couldn't.

TRUE.

WAAAAYYYYY more, it's tuned into a dangerous tour for the wealthy... not challenging.

@@polarbearsrus6980 who do you think could afford to/had the social status to mountaineer back then? It wasn't workers... Also, they used oxygen, the first summiting without supplemental oxygen wouldn't happen for many decades. They were definitely not better and tougher just because they lived in a romanticized era.

Looks thorough but, I can hardly hear a thing...... Seems like the majority of articles and posts are plagued with poor audio and, the rants and nonsense will run you out of the house.....

Interesting analysis indeed... I'm wondering how much more snow there would have been in those exact areas, now almost 100 years ago ?

Perspective

@@stephengreene1856 Hi Stephen, you can edit comments by clicking on the 3 dots on the right side of your post. Cheers!

Jay Patel, I agree! This is a very convincing presentation of what could've been Mallory's amd Irvine's route to the summit. We have all got so hung up on the question if they have been able to master the Second Step. But it's definitely possible that they didn't go that way! I would like to know why most experts believe that Mallory and Irvine must've taken the route over the Second Step! I think that Odell's changing views have caused this misperception. But it does make sense to go back to what he said originally.

Take down that ladder!

Very nice observation. I think you are likely correct. "last step but one," meaning...they climbed with alacrity up the last literal "rock step," but one step remains after: that step which one takes after the hardest parts are behind them... there's but one final step...standing atop the world.

@@VanishedPNW ah! You put it so much better than myself. Exactly! Cheers 😀

I noticed and wondered the same thing. It makes more sense to me that they would drop weight to descend when they were caught in the snow storm rather than during their ascent. Mallory apparently disliked climbing with bottled oxygen but understood it was a necessity, and chose Irvine as his summit partner specifically because he was the most familiar with it. I’m sure when the weather worsened they were in a scramble to get back to camp. They lost their compass on the ascent at camp VI, that combined with the lack of visibility from the snow squall they were caught in may be why they were still descending at night, when their accident happened. Whether they summited or not, I can’t help but admire the ambition and bravery of these early expeditionaries.

The Chinese found Mallory in the 1970's, so I imagine they messed with stuff. The man that found him died in avalanche so not much was known about where. People speculate that the Chinese found irvine too and refuse to tell the location and apparently took a camera that they found on the mountain. Mallory also fell an estimated 1000 feet and was missing one boot too, so it's also believed it all just fell off during the fall.

Michael commented elsewhere that if you're using an oxygen caching system, then the need for the metal oxygen rig is eliminated, and it wouldn't make sense to use the metal rig on the climb. He almost certainly wasn't using that bulky oxygen rig you see in photos on his attack on the summit, since you're only really carrying 1 bottle of oxygen at a time using a caching system. It seems likely once they got up to camp 6, Mallory and Irvine discussed the plan, it became very clear that an oxygen caching system was the most logical method, and they would've decided then not to use the rig. This is why Irvine leaves Camp 6 in a mess, as he makes the adjustments to equipment now they're not using the rig. Michael made the point elsewhere that it doesn't make sense why Irvine would need to modify and work on his equipment unless there was a last minute change of tactics in using the oxygen. There's nothing he would've realised at Camp 6 that he wouldn't have realised at Base Camp if they stuck to the original plan. Mallory never wrote about an oxygen caching system, but it's clear they were using one, as the discovered bottle of oxygen was still pressurised, meaning it had oxygen in it. Meaning it had to have been cached, since it would hardly make sense on any timeline how they could still have oxygen when the accident occurred, unless you believe they turned around in the 'storm' at 2pm and died before 4pm, a storm which 1000 feet away didn't seem to particularly bother or worry Odell for the climbers safety. So it seems clear they simply never used their metal oxygen rigs, and didn't actually make the ascent past Camp 6 with them. Caching was certainly a known technique. Either they were discarded somewhere lower on the mountain, or if they were left at Camp 6, they might have been recovered by sherpas at the instruction of Odell, and Odell may simply have considered their non-use as not even noteworthy, since they knew they could use Oxygen caching. Norton may even have suggested upon meeting Mallory and Irvine at Camp 5, that the rigs might not be usable on the climb up the Great Couloir to the pyramid. Basically, it seems that no, they didn't wear the metal oxygen rigs on the ascent.

@@TheJessC I had always understood that the Chinese witness who died in an avalanche was more likely describing Irvine's body? That he saw someone lying on his side or face up, which cannot have been describing Mallory? I could be mis-remembering what I read, though.

@@TheJessC if I'm not wrong the chinese found Irvine instead. He was killed the next day by an avalanche. The description didn't match Mallory

Arguably Hillary was right. Everyone has people waiting for their return, whether it’s family or friends. He could’ve been trying to warn people against climbing risky mountains and accidentally losing their life.

Hillary spent most of his time after his successful summit trying to maintain his fame, and to maintain the allure of Everest as an untouchable feat. He constantly criticised people (notably the 1996 disaster (correction, 2006 is what I meant)) and acted like he was the authority of Everest, despite the fact his own summit had been more then 40 years earlier, and he really had absolutely no idea what it was like at that time, especially considering the immense amount of support he had in his attempt. Don't get me wrong, I have a great deal of respect for what Hillary achieved, and his many accomplishments and expeditions at that time. But his climb was really no more difficult then those since, other then the fact he didn't strictly know it was possible (though really, it was only the Hillary step he had to navigate for himself, Hunt had already scouted the rest of the obstacles in his own attempt), and later in his life he was absolutely principally concerned with maintaining his status as the first man to climb Everest, advancing his political career, and making sure he didn't fade from the spotlight. He was trying to warn people away from climbing risky mountains, but I have no doubts personally that it stemmed in no small part from the fact he felt his own achievement was being diminished by the number of people successfully summitting Everest every year, especially since it was often people who were not skilled mountaineers, or even particularly fit. If it turns out basically anyone with functional health can summit Everest, it makes the first successful summit 'less impressive', or so I think he believed. He always faced some 'criticism' for the achievement as it was hardly a small expedition that accomplished it (the Hunt expedition was about 5 times larger then the 1924 expedition), a lot of the leg work was done by other people, and if not for Nepal's heavy restrictions, and the closing of the North side by China, he probably would've been beaten. It was felt by some that he got an awful lot of credit for someone for did so little of the work, and that the Hunt expeditions success should've been seen as a team success of the more then 500 people who worked to make it a reality, rather then heaping all the glory solely on Hunt and Hillary (the 1924 expedition totalled about 60 people). Again, I don't think the accomplishment is diminished, first is first, and he got so much credit because the British really wanted to prove they were still a world leader in the difficult times post WW2. But when it turns out the achievement wasn't as difficult as believed, and mostly down to an issue of accessibility and expense, well. I think he felt pressured to maintain his lustre.

Yes, it would be interesting to see how many signed up of all the gear they have is what Mallory and Irvine had during their ascent. I doubt the mountain would be so crowded.

If I had a larger team, I would have put a camera man down at the Odell location and film the climbers going up each of the steps. Then adjust the perspective so it is the same as the human eye at a given screen resolution and size. This way people could see for themselves whether they would or would not be visible and whether the movements matched up with what Odell said. It also lets your climbers summit without making it look like the research part was an after thought.

I also like to believe they summited. What a truly amazing and inspiring story that would be (not that it's not to me already). But I highly doubt it and most of the evidence, if any, is purely circumstantial at best. My rationale is the following: 1. They started climbing way too late to summit (about 10 hours later than modern mountainneers). 2. Likely reached the 2nd step and realised they can't climb it without the ladder, going back to the 1st step to find the other route to traverse, which at this point must have been completely covered in darkness, deciding to go back to camp instead but Mallory falling down first on the way down as the lead climber and Irvine falling down himself soon after. 3. Even today the 2 steps and the summit ridge with ropes and all are a big challenge for climbers, let alone in 1920s with the limited gear they had and being first to attempt it - as modern tests showed they had about an hour or two before freezing to death if weather conditions worsened which likely happened once they disappeared into the clouds after Odell lost sight of them after 12:50pm. What they did or attempted to do at the time was the equivalent of landing on the Moon during the industrial age. Who knows, perhaps they had a good day and made it to the top but died on the way down as most climbers tend to perish. I love to believe it but I highly doubt they ever reached the summit.

@@eetCC It is good that you are starting to break down the climb, but your climb times are no where near accurate. First, everyone on the 1933 team went to the second step to see if it could be climbed, realized it could not, walked past it looking for a way up the couloir where they ran out of time. They turned around and got back to camp all with plenty of day light. From 1924 high camp, Norton made it well past the Second Step, stopped to take a picture in front of the second step at 12:00 climbed on for another hour, turned around, and made it back to camp in 2 1/2 hours. Again, this is all during daylight with plenty of time and no oxygen. Sommervell (who was with Norton) sat down just underneath the second step for a full two hours while Norton climbed on. When Norton got back, the two descended together and both got back to high camp with plenty of day light. How is it that Sommervell can sit down at the second step for 2 full hours and still get back to high camp with during daylight? Why is it that everyone else can make it to the second step and back with plenty of time, but Malory and Irvine, using oxygen, take 4 hours longer?

@@michaeltracy2356thanks for replying and great video by the way! I might have botched the times but the point I'm trying to make is that from there on it's 4-7 hours for modern climbers with an established route, safety ropes and the best gear money can buy etc. Mallory and Irvine could have gotten slowed down/stuck at any point and found themselves in the dark, considering they were the pioneers. But who knows, I hope they had a good day and made it.

Michael Tracy great informative video, thanks for the comment!

@@eetCC The problem is that the "modern route" is not the one they would take above the Third Step. Nor is it the one they would take below the third step, but here, it looks like you are saying that from 12:50 to summit by the "modern route" was probably not feasible given their gear. That is a common theory and essentially it is what Graham Hoyland's book "Last Hours on Everest" advances -- though Hoyland also throws is some other odd ball theories as well. First, I'll address the "modern gear" theory. The idea is that modern climbing equipment and clothing is dramatically superior to what they had at the time. But his is comparing apples to oranges or more like comparing a SUV to a formula one race car. Modern gear is made as general purpose gear for all cold weather and climbing conditions. This is why people climbing the South side of Everest wear the same clothing as people climbing on the North -- even though the climbing is completely different. It is also why a modern climber use the same gear at 20,000ft as they do at 28,000ft. The gear is versatile and works in all sorts of conditions. However, this does not mean it is "better". In fact, it means it is worse under certain conditions. Obviously, if you are rocking climbing in the desert, "modern" Everest gear will do far more harm than good. For the same reason, if you need to move quickly over moderate rocky terrain -- like 90% of the route above high camp, large boots with snow gators and crampons are far slower than hobnail boots. And yet, this is what everyone wears. These work great on the South side where there are deep snow drifts and 100% of your climbing above high camp is on ice/snow. It is same with the oxygen equipment. The "bite valve" is difficult to use and requires significant training to use efficiently. It also requires the climber be in good physical condition and be able to have steady breathing through the entire climb. In contrast, the modern mask system is simple to use and basically "idiot proof." However, as well all know from wearing masks all day, a mask makes it difficult to breath when doing even moderate exercise. Thus, "modern" oxygen equipment is perfect for "modern" climbers who lack any ability to control their breathing while climbing. However, they are inefficient and the "bite value" works much better for experienced climbers and has little to no risk of failure. But "experts" constantly say the "modern" equipment is better. Yet a couple years ago, and entire batch of regulators failed and dozens of climbers vented all their oxygen and had to turn around. (www.outsideonline.com/2309611/oxygen-regulators-fail-everest). Even in the 2019 search (nation geographic), they curiously state that the "modern" equipment is superior in the same video they say one of their valves broke and they lost 1/2 a bottle of oxygen. In fact, the belief that modern equipment works creates more problems than it solves. Mallory and Irvine knew their gear had limits and they took back ups. They brought up 9 cylinders to high camp because they budgeted for failure. "Modern" climbers assume their equipment is going to work and then have to turn around when it doesn't. Thus, their equipment was ideally suited for the task they were trying to accomplish and they properly budgeted enough room for equipment failure. They were climbing in early June when the daytime temperature at N Col was 29F. Other expeditions had down suits and they chose not to use these simply because they were not necessary. The notion that there was a severe storm was raised by Hoyland in his book, but that is largely just sensationalism. While there is a recorded drop in barometric pressure at base camp, he does not include any records from N Col which would be much more relevant. In addition, the expedition report specifically notes that the barometric and temperature readings were notoriously inaccurate and steps needed to be taken to improve this. Thus, one fluke reading is not likely because there is a massive "once in a century" storm. Odell was outside at 27000ft the entire time during this "massive" storm and he survived just fine. He was out of a tent and not really moving that fast (he said he was sitting behind a rock for some time), and he didn't freeze to death. So, if someone can sit down for about an hour at 27000 and not freeze to death, I doubt they are in the "storm of the century." While we do not know the climb times above high camp for Mallory and Irvine, we do know the climb times below high camp and we also know the climb times for Norton and the 1933 expeditions above high camp. And those climb times show the 1924 teams beating the crap out of "modern" climbers. Obviously, there are top athletes that can beat the 1924 times, but using times from teams such as Himex climbs from "Everest: Beyond the Limit" shows that the 1924 teams climbed significantly faster than these "modern" climbers. So, if the gear and the route are so much better, why were 1924 climbers able to beat the crap out of all but top athletes in the "modern" era? Was Irvine such a skilled mountaineer that he could beat almost all modern climbers? Most likely not. The simple explanation is that his gear was ideally suited for speed climbing in warmer weather on rocky terrain by someone skilled in the use of a "bite value" breathing apparatus. (Just as a note, I am making a new video and a lot of the climb time exposition is going into the analysis for the new video, so the "wall of text" is sort of a prep up for the new video -- by which time I hope to have cut it down to a more manageable size. It should be up in a week or two.)

What do u reckon are the odds that Irvine’s body is found?

@@joshtonkin7684 I've read somewhere there have been several expeditions to find Irvine's body. All of them inconclusive. But even if they found the body it's unlikely the film in the camera can still be developed, it's been 100 years. Someone speculated (maybe that someone is the uploader of this video, can't remember) that Irvine's body has been found but it's being kept a secret so that once Covid passes they can go back with proper equipment and cameras to document it. Also because we're approaching the 100th anniversary.

@@joshtonkin7684 kzfaq.info/get/bejne/f8Wmq5x0x6qbop8.html I was right, for the full speculation it's under the pinned comment, second reply by the uploader

@@GrumpyStormtrooper I can't see the comment you claim exists about Irvine's body being found but being kept secret. It hardly seems like something that would be easy to keep secret. The amount of money you could make selling that to the papers, there'd have to be, I'd say, no more then half a dozen people maximum that knew about the body being discovered and it's location. Anymore then 6 and you're at too high a risk of a leak. And the Chinese 100% have the motivation to get there first and 'disappear' some evidence of a successful summit. They take great pride in being the first to summit from the North side, if the British did it in 1924, then the British would be able to claim they definitively conquered Everest in her entirety. Unless you can point to a comment with some better evidence (copy paste the text here please) then I'm going to squarely place this in the conspiracy theory category. It's also weird that they'd find his body, but not be able to document it immediately? I mean, what proper equipment do they need? Who doesn't have cameras with them on Everest in, what, 2019? Because, there's no reason you would be anywhere close to his body if you were just climbing the mountain, there is a zero percent chance of stumbling across it. You would need to actively be searching for it. Actively searching for it, by the way, in a location where the uploader admits would be dangerous to climb in because people would be chucking oxygen bottles down at you all day. So the only possible way anyone found his body and had to leave it unexplored is if they went looking for it, but didn't bring along 'the proper equipment' (which is so vague it's basically pointless, what equipment could you possibly require) and cameras (which anyone on the mountain looking for his body absolutely would've had plenty of in the year 2019). And then you kept all of these people hush hush about it for more then 2 years now? The alternative here is that they simply saw a body from really far away, in which case, there's absolutely no way they'd be able to say "yeah that's Irvine". Since I can't find the comment, either it was deleted in the last 3 months, the pinned comment was changed and I missed the reply after going through all the comment threads, or you made this completely nonsensical story up. I can't see how the uploader possibly could've come to this conclusion when he is so completely logical in all his other conclusions. The idea that they would find Irvine's body and not at least make a preliminary search for artefacts proving a summit is insane. Why would you risk someone else beating you to it? It's not like they knew in 2019 that COVID was going to happen. The more I look at your comment the more I'm convinced you made it up and assumed no one would fact check it.

I have commented in the past that there is a distinct possibility that Irvine was found and not reported -- for the same reasons you mention in your comment. First, when Mallory was found, they all stated he was not found when initially asked so they could control the release of the information and make sure all their sponsors were mentioned (kzfaq.info/get/bejne/n7d8fJiTld2pj6s.html). The "secret" only needed to last a couple of days and likely would not have lasted longer as you note, too many people knew. When I searched in 2018, the plan was to keep it a secret unless the entire thing could be wrapped up in a short period of time -- which is so unlikely it is not worth discussing. I would have shown Jake Norton a photo and seen if he wanted to come along for the return trip. There are only so many places Irvine can be, and none of them are easy to get to. For Mallory, you can just walk over. For any of the possible locations of Irvine on the upper mountain, even getting there is a problem. In addition, it is likely that Irvine is mostly buried. So, to get him out, you need a lot of tools -- more than just a couple ice axes. Some hammers, picks, and preferably some heating tools. Probably some type of anti-freeze to get some of the rocks. You also need a way of dealing with the film. I spent a considerable amount of time dealing with what to do if a camera was found in 2018 -- that is, if I found Irvine and the camera just happened to be easily accessible. I won't get into the whole thing, but the safest thing to do would be to immediately take the camera to base camp and develop the film there -- which is what the Kodak engineers recommended. This requires the proper chemicals and a light proof tent be available in base camp, and you probably want a little practice developing similar film -- best to bring a "old school" development expert -- who probably can't climb any mountains. All of this makes the simple thing to do is to find him in one year, get all that stuff together, and then go back the next year fully prepared. It is too much time and money to bring it all with you each time. There are a number of reasons why I think this happened in 2019. First, they obviously did not know about Covid so they expected to return in 2020 with more people and equipment but could not. There was a long time between their expedition and any reports from their expeditions. They certainly kept it a "secret" that they were even there. This is one of my issues with those teams. Again, had there been no covid, there is a good chance I would have returned in 2020 -- all without knowing that they had conducted any search, had any photos, or anything. The fact they would let me go back to the mountain without sharing a single piece of information indicates they are all complete dirt bags, had some secret, or both. Nat Geo refuses to release any photos or video of the area they searched and anything around it. This is extremely odd -- they build up to this big search of the "Holzel" slot and then go and look at it and not a single photo of anything? Other than a video taken from the standard route, there is not a single photo or video of their entire "search." And although they had a drone, not a single photo from the drone has been released -- Pollard uses one in one of his slides, but it is the area east of the Warts -- the same are Jake searched that year. Given that Nat Geo makes money from people viewing their photos, it is certainly an oddity. It also leave the question of "what would they do if they found him?" The Nat Geo team did not have enough climbers to perform a search. Jake Norton had a team on the mountain that could have done a search of the body if one were found, but it is very unlikely that Nat Geo would bring in a competing team. Nat Geo also had climbers that had never summited, so they all wanted to go to the summit and not chip away at rocks lower down the mountain. Jake's team spent days searching in various different places, and the Nat Geo team spent about 30 minutes total. Which is exactly what would happen if their photos picked something up and it was too difficult to get to. In any case, Jake's team would have probably seen 4 climbers with cameras rummaging through the Yellow Band hundreds of meters off the standard route and might want to go take a look at what they were up to. Better to return when a competing team with cameras is not present. I also would not fault them for this. Had their drone found Irvine, the best thing to do would be to keep it a secret so that a proper search could be conducted. Whether these people have any interest in conducting a proper search remains to be seen. It is also easy to keep it a secret because you have only one person preliminarily review the drone images. If something is found, simply pull that image out (or images) and let the rest of the team review the remaining photos -- for which they will find nothing. Unless they know every inch of the upper mountain -- and they do not, none of them will figure it out. They can then all go about saying that nothing was found. It is very unlikely the drone operator would have spotted it while taking the pictures -- he had a very small monitor with reduced pixel images. If you view these teams as competing teams of treasure hunters rather than legitimate "researchers," then it makes more sense.

Hell yeah. Appreciate that.

France angry once again!!!!

I am putting this all together for a new video, but currently it is far too long. I am going to release a couple shorter videos that explain the ancillary issues which will allow the main video to be more focused on the time of Mallorys fall -- which is why it is about George Mallory's watch. The main idea is that you have to start with facts you know are true -- Mallory and Irvine were above 8000m on Mt. Everest's North Side and they died. Starting with only those two pieces you would conclude that they made the summit -- because the vast majority of people who died above 8000m on the North side all made the summit. If you add the fact that they fell from the ice axe location, then all the people who died in that general region -- between the "exit cracks" and the First Step died returning from the summit. In addition, numerous other people who did not make the summit did not die. People who turned around below the coloiur (British Expeditions) or below the Second Step (modern expeditions) all made it back just fine. So, given those two facts -- death and altitude, the "most likely" result is they made the summit. You can then start adding additional facts to see if anything changes the result. Rather than changing the result, the additional facts all confirm the same conclusion. Mallory and Irvine were not only the first of many people to make the summit, they were also the first of many people to over extended themselves and pushed to the summit at the cost of their lives . A story of "Climbers turn back at Second Step, die shortly thereafter" is about as common as "Man bites dog." While it is obvious to many visitors to this channel that they did not take the modern route, many people believe they did. I'll do an ancillary video on "Everything Wrong with Conrad Anker's Assessment" that covers the numerous problems with a ridge route and the numerous "mistakes" made by Anker in his assessment.

Thank you for your time and effort for such a well thought out response.

@@michaeltracy2356 I agree with this 100%. If they didn't make it to the summit they would have made it back safely.

Hi Sabine, I recommend reading the book The Fight for Everest 1924, it has Norton and Odell writing about the summit attempts. There's a part where Norton said Mallory advocated taking the North East ridge while Norton and Somerville preferred lower down (500 to 600 feet below the crest) which took them into the couloir. I think that piece along with Odell seeing them on the ridge at either the second or first step (they didn't name the third step back then) indicates Mallory and Irvine may have taken the NE ridge route. The book has a lot about the expedition including letters and notes from Mallory and gives the reader a really good feel of what they were going through on the mountain.

@@carld587 , thanks a lot for your input. I will read the book! I agree that much of the confusion stems from the fact that Noel Odell did not exactly know the topography of the ridge at the time of his sighting.

Because it is necessary to the lie that Mallory and Irvine take the Second Step, despite Mallory stating that the Ridge route was impossible prior to the expedition. If they don't take the ridge route, then Mallory and Irvine cannot be spotted on either the First or Second Step, which means that Odell sighted them on the Third Step just before 1pm. If they were ascending the Third Step before 1pm it becomes almost impossible to suggest they did not summit. Therefore, to make the lie that they didn't summit more believable, the 'experts' have to say they took the Ridge Route. They then say that they couldn't possibly have climbed the second step, despite testimony to suggest that Mallory would've been absolutely capable of climbing the second step. So they invent a story about a storm, so that the climb becomes more difficult, and explain why they would die after turning around on a very easy part of the mountain. Every time they are faced with something that contradicts the idea that Mallory didn't summit, they create a new reason why he couldn't have. Simply put, they believe that Mallory had to take the route over the Second Step because otherwise, their entire narrative and conclusion are quickly shown to be incorrect. This lie has existed from the very same day that they made their attempt and were lost, and has been perpetuated ever since. Why are people so intent on making sure it's inconceivable that Mallory and Irvine summited? Because if they summitted in 1924, then a lot of people lose a lot of prestige that they hold because they were the first to summit Everest. Particularly, the Chinese would lose the prestige of conquering the Summit from the North Side, which is important to them because they use it to bolster their claim on Tibet. So plenty of people had motivation to ensure that the idea of Mallory summitting was considered impossible, by having him take a far more difficult route, and being spotted far from the summit. The truth is, that based on Odell's sighting, it's almost impossible for them to not have summitted. They were right below the summit, and very few climbers fail to summit from that position. If they die after reaching that position, it is always because they summitted and died on descent. Statistically, Mallory and Irvine, from their position at 1pm above the Third Step, must have summitted. That's just purely mathematical. The idea that Mallory advocated for the NE ridge is either a false account or perhaps something Mallory advocated for prior to his first expedition to Everest. There is statement from Mallory himself, which you can find in the videos on this channel, that he considered the Ridge Route to be impossible, and clearly had absolutely no thought of taking it. I trust the word of Mallory over the word of Norton. Especially since Norton is the one who started this whole lie to begin with, by misrecording information sent by Odell about M&I's summit attempt. And Odell did not see them on the first and second step, as this video outlines, and as "The Last Step but One" on this channel goes into more detail on. Odell made it very clear he believed immediately after that Mallory and Irvine summitted. He only changed this opinion later, probably after a conversation with Norton. His initial statements and actions clearly show he thought they would summit by 4pm, and would be back without issue. No mountain climber that had any business being on that expedition, or any claim to legitimacy, would suggest that Mallory and Irvine could summit by 4pm if they'd only just made it up the second step. It would have been clear to Odell that any attempt to summit from the second step at 1pm would be difficult, and certainly not achievable by 4pm. A summit by 4pm from the Third Step however, is exactly the timeline you would expect. But this information does not sit well with those who believe that Mallory and Irvine didn't summit, so they say the pair realised they couldn't summit and turned back shortly after 1 or 2pm. But, this 'theory' makes no sense, because if they turned back that early in the day, they would easily make it back down the mountain without any issue. Certainly, they would not both die. So they make up a story about a storm, by exaggerating minor details in Odell's account, but it's clear if you actually investigate the claims that there was no storm, certainly no storm big enough that it would blow the pair off the mountain on the easiest part of the climb. This is detailed in "You call this a storm" on this channel. And so you can hopefully see, that the reason they say they took the second step is because they are trying to justify their idea that the pair didn't summit, despite all the evidence saying they did. If they took the reasonable and obvious conclusion that they climbed through the Great Couloir and bypassed the difficult steps, then it's impossible to reasonably suggest they didn't make it. The only option is to claim they were inexplicably at the second step, and spread that around until people believe it as the truth, putting it in all the books and documentaries, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

oxygen deprivation causing pulmonary or cerebral edema, quite often causing them to flail around like a drunk person.

I'll address your question first, but will also address the issue raised by Conrad Anker in Lost Explorer. The way it worked is that you melt snow the night before, put the thermoses in your sleeping bag and then head out the next morning. The message form Mallory is that the cooker rolled down the hill "at the last moment" and they would have had their melted snow hours ago. And if it were anything else, as I'll get into below, they simply would have sent a message down to Odell to bring up a cooker, water, meta, whatever they needed. That was the whole point of having him climbing in support. Turing to the similar issue raised in Lost Explorer, the cooker is incorrectly reported in both Lost Explorer (Anker) and Into the Silence (Davis) as being their only cooker. This was not the case. Each camp had a cooker in it. When they were departing Camp V, the cooker fell down the mountain. By then, they had already melted their snow, loaded their thermoses and were on they way out of camp. It had no impact on Mallory and Irvine at all. They informed Odell because it would impact him and they didn't want him looking all over for a cooker that was not there. Snow could be melted in Camp VI because Norton reported having to melt snow the morning of this climb because a thermos cork popped out in the night and he had to re-melt the snow to fill it. They do not carry their cookers around with them. Camp VI was stocked with a cooker, so they simply used that one to heat their water prior to their summit bid. Anker gets the facts wrong when he thinks that Mallory is reporting losing the cooker in Camp VI. It was not. It was the cooker in Camp V, as it plainly apparent by the message Mallory wrote. You note this in your question, so this part of the response more more directed to other people who read Lost Explorer. In any case, had it been the cooker in Camp VI, it would not have been a serious issue because you don't absolutely need a cooker to cook. The cooker makes it easier, but you can just put the meta in between some rocks and make your own rock-cooker. The cooker itself is just an aluminum stand that holds the pot above the flame. It certainly made things easier, but it was not absolutely necessary. Likely it made Odell not want to spend an additional night at Camp V, but its impact on Mallory and Irvine was negligible.

@@michaeltracy2356 thanks Brian for taking the time to explain in detail. I somehow sense that the 1999 expedition was all about them then a true search for facts. Did not see any clear plan of action or procedures to follow if and when either Mallory or irvine were found. Missed opportunity to determine a further evidence trail.

At first, I thought the same way -- that the 1999 team had just got a little too excited, but with Jake Norton's revelation that they oxygen bottle was not empty, it now leaves little room for doubt. The various "mistakes" were deliberate. It is also curious in that now that so much as been brought out, about Mallory not taking the ridge route, about the summit rocks, about the oxygen bottle, about the "Hozel" slot only being 9 inches wide, about the missing glove, about the cut out pocket, etc, they all still stick to their story. It is really a display of sociopathy and lack of any empathy. These people will look straight into the camera and say, "Yes, I searched that pocket" (even though it was cut out and taken to base camp two weeks earlier). They will say, "I think Irvine was in the Holzel slot but the Chinese moved him" even though this is a physical impossibility. But I really do not blame the individual climbers. In order to be successful or "famous" in our society today, you must be a sociopath. I'll get into this in my review of The Third Pole. There are just certain things you cannot say when you write a main stream book. It seems like the climbers do what they can within the constraints put on them. But ultimately people need to think for themselves and understand the post-truth world we live in.

Their climb is famous, and the more you look at the route, the more complex it is. The north side of the direct North-East-Ridge route is visible from advanced base camp and I have numerous pictures of this area. However, they likely climbed up the south side of the ridge -- which is not visible from ABC. I have pictures of the "pinnacles", and from the north side, I just don't see how the north could be done. The only thing I can add is that the traditional "three pinnacles" view is a vast simplification. While there are indeed three large structures, there are numerous other fairly large projections that are much sharper than the "steps" further up the ridge. When you just look at it from camp, it might look remotely climbable. However, once you zoom in and start really taking a look, it is a wonder that anyone was able to climb that route at all. In any case, their climb is sort of a "fan favorite" for talk in base camp, but, as with most talk in base camp, it does not contain anything new.

@@michaeltracy2356 I appreciate your reply - I grew up reading the books of all the British climbers of that era.I particularly enjoyed Boardman's books. Thanks again!

It is not that steep. Any photo is going to distort angles for anything off center. In any case, Camp V is well below where I took this photo from. It was taken from the snowfield itself, and I was not struggling to remain upright or in fear of falling off some cliff. It isn't that steep there.

@@michaeltracy2356 thanks!

Good question. there's a few reasons one would turn back without summiting. perhaps they had run out of oxygen or realised they would run out. The climb had evidently taken far longer then they had anticipated. Also they may have simply run out of energy and decided they could not go on any further. It happened to Norton and Somervelle in 1922. Another reason is that they came upon the difficult 2nd step and could not surpass it. Personally I don't believe any of that happened. I don't think they went the ridge route, and so didn't have to deal with the 2nd step. I think they took the way of the traverse along the yellow band and it was really the 3rd step that Odell saw them at 12:50pm. It makes sense to have them there at that time. The 2nd step makes little sense. they were 4 hours behind schedule, and Odell says they climbed the step with little difficulty, which is impossible. The 3rd puts them within reach of the summit(at least to them) and explains why they went for it, and maybe got there too, only far later than they had planned. Perhaps 4pm. Then, they had to descend quickly before they lost the light. Mallory's body did not have him wearing snow goggles which is proof enough for me they were descending in darkness. They were beyond exhausted, rushing and out of oxygen in the dark descending unknown terrain. It is amazing they almost made it back to camp, but a fall was inevitable sadly. I do not believe the facts support a fatal fall if they had simply turned back halfway up. The would have had the light and the energy. For mine they died after a successful summit push.

What do you base this on? Provide a detailed description of what Odell said, when he said it, and how I can verify that he actually said it. Tell me exactly how you determined they left their camp at 8am and describe your calculations that show they could not be at the Third Step by 12:50. I'll give you a couple days and then delete your post. This is not a forum for unsubstantiated claims. People are welcome to post their version of events, but they must be backed up by facts. As soon as you go through the math, you will see where you are wrong. (If they left at 8AM and had 12 hours of oxygen and didn't make it above 28200, how exactly were they "02 deprived" by 4PM? -- which is only 8 hours later. Even if they only had 8 hours of oxygen, they would not suddenly become 02 deprived at that altitude exactly at the 8 hour mark? None of your stuff makes any sense, but I'll give you a chance to explain.) Also, you need to edit your post and remove " It is now agreed that it was the first step where Odell "spotted" them." This is false, as obviously, I do not agree with it. So, remove it from your post or I'll ban you from the channel.

@@michaeltracy2356 "Dear Noel, We'll probably start early to-morrow (8th) to have clear weather. It won't be too early to start looking out for us either crossing the rockband under the pyramid or going up skyline at 8.0 p.m. Yours ever G Mallory" This was the note sent to Noel at ABC but it meant 8am not pm which is not enough time to even make it to the 3rd step by 12:50 according to Odell and the storm hit around 2pm which lasted until 4 pm. That's 2 hours in a storm exposed with no cover wearing gear totally inadequate for hurricane force winds at 28K plus altitude. Take also the fact that the O2 tanks were compromised since according to Odell, when he went up to C6 there was O2 bottles with regulators that looked that they were worked on which means it is possible that they left later than 8am. Yes, I surmise that they were O2 deprived since it is possible that the O2 tanks, regulators and masks were failing at that altitude and that temp especially during a storm. Also remember, they had no lamps so them leaving early wasn't possible and them getting caught at night without light makes it highly possible that they walked off the mountain especially when frostbit and O2 deprived as well as their footprints would have been buried under new snow. My theory is they hunkered down during the storm and then realized they were not going to summit and then started down. They were numb, cold and suffering from O2 deprivation and then slipped and fell. Mallory went one way and Irvine went another and the rope connecting them snapped. Hope that helps. Sorry, didn't mean to trigger you :)

@DarthCheney How do you take a letter that says they are going to be at the pyramid (above the Third Step) at 8 AM and turn that into them leaving high camp at 8AM? Odell was out in the "storm" for 2 hours and he didn't die and M&I would have been sheltered from wind as they were behind the pyramid. The "storm" was not that big a deal. It did not blow any of the tents off the mountain. It didn't even knock down a tent pole as Odell specifically noted that a single tent pole was only knocked down 2 days later. Mallory's route was shielded from the wind, and a 2 hour "storm" likely had little impact on his total climb. Most likely, his climb started around 7AM and ended at about 1:30AM the next day as that is the time his watch was smashed. Of course, if his watch was smashed at 1:30PM the same day, he died before the storm. So either the storm is entirely irrelevant or a minor concern. You don't need to tell me there are birds at that altitude. I know there are birds because I saw them when I was there and the videos of my climb which are released show birds at that altitude. However, this does not mean that someone would mistake climbers for birds and have the "birds" just happen to be along one of Mallory's proposed routes. The rest of the stuff is just you making up stuff to prove your theory. The regulator at high camp was brought there by Odell -- not left by Mallory and Irvine. This is explained on page 137 of Fight for Everest. There were 10 oxygen bottles brought to high camp and M&I would carry a maximum of 3 each. If you do the math, you will see what is wrong with your argument. Most of their route was on rock, so there were no footprints. In any case, they found their route just fine as is evident by the location of the ice axe. There is also no possibility they walked off the mountain in different directions.

Messner bypassed them, why is that so hard to believe?

@@michaeltracy2356 I appreciate your research and the time you’ve put into the topic. its hard to believe b/c i would think this would be a more known/established route. Why would anyone choose to climb the second step when it can be bypassed? Has it been traversed? And is the zig zag at the top of the Norton feasible? Messners 1980 route traversed much lower on the face across the norton. He didn’t traverse the north ridge proper. To be specific, idk that there is a north ridge variant that bypasses atleast the first 2 steps. The pictures, perspective and analysis are amazing. I just have a hard time with the scale. Especially, a blown up panorama of a face.

@@hc_ox4842 I cover why it is not used at 31:30. It is also explained in the video that all the other climbers to attempt that route felt it was climbable. So, Sommervell, Norton, Smyth, Harris all said it is a climbable route. They didn't keep heading into the couloir because it was impossible to climb out. They headed there because it is the most logical and easiest route to the summit. However, Sommervell, Norton, Smyth, Harris did not have oxygen. You can apply the same logic to Messners route. Because its traverse is lower, it is easier (you stay at lower altitude for a longer time). Yet it is not used today for the same reasons. Once the ladder is there, the ridge route is not that difficult and, most importantly, you don't have rocks falling down from climbers ahead of you. In general, even the "expert" climbers on Everest will not climb without a fixed rope. And few Sherpas will climb un-clipped. (It is a job for them, not an adventure). So to climb that route, you need two climbers that are willing to go without fixed ropes and without Sherpa support. And you have to climb it at a time when people are not climbing the standard route, as climbers knock down so many rocks. Finally, because of the earthquake, climbing the route today would not really prove anything. For instance, climbing what remains of the "Hillary Step" on the South side is today much easier than in 1953. As the earthquake made changes like that all over the mountain, even if you did climb that route, it would say little about its climbability back in 1924. Similarly, if a particular hold or crevice was there in 1924 and needed to climb the route and it was removed by the earthquake, failing to climb the route today says little about its condition in 1924. As such, we are left with the numerous reports from climbers in 1924 and 1933 that a climbable route existed at that time. We are also left with Mallory's statement that he intended to climb that particular route knowing that he had binoculars at North Col and was in a good position to assess it. That, coupled with an eye witness that describes their position as exiting that route, is a good indication that it was climbed in 1924. It is also curious that many of the people pushing the "ridge route" theory were involved in in 1999 find of Mallory where they failed to search for rocks in his pockets and thus destroyed the evidence as to whether he made the summit. There seems to be some back-filling by saying, "It really didn't matter that they destroyed the evidence because he couldn't have climbed the second step anyway thus there was never any evidence to destroy." However, if a viable route exists, then they really really really screwed up big time. So it is not surprising that the 1999 team only wants to discuss an impossible ridge route. In general, I am skeptical of people who offer a solution to a problem they created.

I wonder how they figured it was an english and what else they found and did

I read somewhere it was something regarding the teeth like the type of dental work ​@jeffsmith9351

Good question. So I looked it up. Drones can not fly that high.. The air is too thin. The most advanced drone can't fly over 20,000 feet. Helicopters can't hover above 12, 000 feet.

If you have Disney Plus, go to the Nat Geo and watch “Lost on Everest”. They take a drone and look for Irvine in a couple specific spots.

@@richardhinman3046 sorry, that´s wrong: there is drone footage from Everest summit, also an Eurocopter landed there already (active operational height is around 7.000-7.500m)

The drone from the lander on Mars flew in some spectacularly thin atmosphere (not air obviously).

"It doesn't appear that anyone who summitted but didn't make it back down is credited/lauded/ recorded in the annals of history (and there are hundrefs) " How did you reach this conclusion? It is easily seen to be false... Pasang Lhmu Sherpa is credited with first Nepali women's summit. -- did a whole video on her. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/bMuFqsmQvre6k5c.html en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannelore_Schmatz Hannelore Schmatz (16 February 1940 - 2 October 1979) was a German climber who was the fourth woman to summit Mount Everest. She collapsed and died as she was returning from summiting Everest via the southern route; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sue_Fear Her final climb was to Manaslu (8,156 m) in 2006, which she successfully summited. Fear died on 28 May 2006,[1] when she fell into a crevasse (approx. 7,800 m) while descending from the summit of Manaslu in Nepal. And in for my "Great Climbs" series, the one climb that gets requested the most and is by far the most favoite "climbers climb" of Everest is Boardman and Tasker -- which of course not only died, but didn't even come close to the summit. "Even then, the Chinese will always have it, as they survived." Also, not true, as I discuss in kzfaq.info/get/bejne/praVacxkxsmVhqs.html, as the Chinese have not proven their 1960 summit, it is the Americans who reached the summit from the North face first. While the Chinese can claim they were there first to climb some particular route, that would be true regardless because Mallory and Irvine likely didn't climb anything close to the Chinese route. Also has the Indians beating China to summit by 10 years. This is why it is important to do you own research and not just repeat what you have heard on the internet. I would be interested in how you did this research and missed the numerous wikipedia pages crediting the people will first summits even though they died. And why you just made up "and there are hundred." Simply not true. Most people who die are Sherpas carry loads and not going for any "firsts." There are not even hundreds of "first" that are legitimate. Hey, I was the first person named Michael Tracy to summit. If you need to invent facts for your theory to work, it is a good sign your theory is wrong. You should also not be wondering why some people are trying to show whether they made it or not. As you note, this is a rather unimportant tidbit in history. You should be wondering why some people are trying so hard -- lying, manipulating, destroying things, stealing things, moving things around on the mountain all to prevent people from finding out what happened in 1924. Clearly, someone thinks it is very important

A reason could be because the second step would have been an insurmountable obstacle in the time frame they had and so they would likely have decided to not go that way. These days there is a ladder bolted onto the second step making it clime able. Mallory had no such luxury.

No helicopter or drone can fly at that altitude due to the air being so thin. The only flying devices that could reach such an altitude comfortably are air-breathing jet-powered planes and they'd have to be flying at transonic speeds in order to sustain that altitude anyway. This is the reason why nobody can be rescued when they're in the death zone.

A drone was used in 2019 and it was able to get to that altitude and take photos and video. Although they refuse to share the footage or sell it, from what is visible on the video they released, there is too much snow for it to be of use. Undoubtedly, his remains are covered in snow. But snow comes and goes. So, the idea is to search when there is no snow. They had this opportunity in 2019 (a couple weeks after the use of the drone), but searched different areas. The area directly under the ice axe is difficult to get to. If he is covered by rock debris, likely he cannot be found. This is not a simple problem to solve, and drones do not seem to have added any value. However, enough searches have been done so that the search area is limited to the area below the ice axe. Perhaps he is buried or fell off the slope completely, but the search has not been completely exhausted. There is still some (small) probability that he is found. As a note, in general helicopters cannot reach that altitude, but a specialty helicopter was able to reach the summit of Mt. Everest. The problem with these is the issue of snow vs. wind. In general, when there is no wind, there is a high amount of snow. High winds in good weather = low snow. But drones and helicopters cannot operate in high winds. So, to successfully use aerial photography, you need a period of high winds and no snow followed by no wind. This is just such a rare occurrence. In addition, high resolution cameras can cover the required areas. Drones give a better angle, but ground based cameras are much more stable. I have plenty of good pictures -- just too much snow. I don't need drones or helicopters. Just one good year.

@@professionalprocrastinator8103 I believe I saw helicopters airlift sick people at that altitude. Someone replied that they did use a drone in 2019 but there was too much snow to discern any remains. Where was the area where that Chinese climber said he came across the body of an Englishman?

And how old was Odell when he pointed to that spot? Is it likely that in 50 years between when he saw them and when that photo was taken his memory of the event improved? Or do you think his memory got worse? In any case, it seems you have solved the mystery. Why not make a video and explain it to people?

@@michaeltracy2356 Interesting response, is it not where you want Odells pointing finger to be? Keen to dismiss something that doesn't fit in your story? I'll tell you this Michael as someone who works with the elderly they are brilliant story tellers and love talking about their life experiences with photos, you're doing Odell a disservice. It's probably not exact but Odells finger is a heck of a long way back from the third step/summit pyramid to what's contrived in this video. The Odell photo/video is in the link I provided already, I haven't solved any mystery and don't claim or care to. The Odell photo link was put up for likeminded people who are interested in the mystery. Odells photo is what it is and people can see it for themselves and make up their own minds.

@@WellyCoaster what about taking into account what´s written in the second paragraph („Heavy Hearts“) of the article cited 8:34 ff in this video. Here Norton is writing „...The last point at which they were seen was determined by the theodolite as 28.227 feet, less than 800 feet from the top. ...“ So if we want to believe the article contains some truth and is not a complete product of fiction we learn that in this point in time they were sure enoug to were M&I were seen last to be able to check it with a theodolite (and Norton acknowledges that M&I did reach a greater height than he did). Of course 28.227 feet are pointing to a height around the Second Step, but Norton‘s deviating informations have also already been discussed at length as well as the origin of the photo showing Odell pointing at some part of the mountain and the question what he was asked before doing so.

If you read one book about Everest this is it The Climb, republished as The Climb: Tragic Ambitions on Everest, is an account by Russian-Kazakhstani mountaineer Anatoli Boukreev of the 1996 Everest Disaster, during which eight climbers died on the mountain. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Climb_(book) g.co/kgs/QxHyZz

Yes he was part of the 1924 Expedition he saw Irvine and Mallory as black dots as his vision was extremely good as he was geologist and didn't even wear glasses driving well into his 80s

@@harrymcsherry5272 Thankyou👍

@@stevenedwards2162 no problem