We’ll miss you Patrick! Have a great time ❤

YES!!!! This isn't only something that needs to be discussed more with students in high school/college, but among musicians out of school as well. You hear people talking down about wedding/restaurant/whatever gigs, but then complain about their situation and make excuses. I'm so glad you made this video because like all your videos, it comes from not only an area of expertise but an area of caring as well. You actually care about other musicians, younger people, the music "scene"/business, etc. and you want to actually shine a light on things to make them better. Love it!!

I liked when you talked about how it's what the person hiring you is looking for as opposed to who you are as an artist. Reminded me of the time I was told by the drummer/band leader of this one band, that I was hired over the other sax player (more talented than me) he had in mind because I showed up on time, was quiet (not noodling) during rehearsals, and helped load/unload the rhythm section gear at gigs.

I'm going to give a very different take on this. I have always wanted to be a musician and ahve a musical life. I liked hanging out with musicians and it's the main thing I thought about. I studied music and have a masters in performance but realized soon that the moajory of my musical life would involve a lot of remote, tough, underpaid jobs where I spend the majority of my time NOT performing the music I want. I was fortunate enough to be capable in other areas as well and was able to find a well paying job that doesn't require 100% of my time. I found music to be a lot more fulfilling if I play what I want and compose what I want. However, I was always feeling guilty that I was no longer a 'proper' musician because I wasn't struggling in the trenched with the rest of my colleagues, this made me realize that I had a preference for the ARTISTIC side of music but not the reality of the working musican life, Thanks!

This is a hard truth that every music student needs to learn. The music business is exactly that-a “business”.

This is one of the most important discussions that schools dont have with students

Patrick, thank you for the video. I feel like my life has revolved around this very topic, so it’s nice to hear your thoughts. My parents are working musicians, and I grew up with a solid training to do that myself. Discovering Cannonball in high school led me to become a jazz major, but right after college I got hooked up with the touring Broadway scene, and stuck with that through my 20s. This seemed like a good fit for me because I could read and double well, but after a while I was very unhappy, starved for artistry, and dreaded going into the orchestra pit to play the exact same show night after night. I was the quintessential working musician, with zero opportunity for any artistic expression. This all came to a head when I managed to audition and win one of the reed chairs for the Radio City Christmas Spectacular in NYC. A great paying gig, but as the saying goes, money doesn’t make you happy. It sounds corny, but deep down I knew I just wanted to be an artist. Once that show ended, I took a deep inward look. I sold my doubles, moved back to the midwest, bought a house with the Bway dough, and made a vow to myself to only pursue artistic opportunities. It’s been almost a decade since then, and I’m glad to say that things have worked out well. Because I played very little jazz in my 20s, I’ve felt a little behind, but through years of hard work I’ve managed to record and play regularly with all of the best players in my city (Indianapolis) and surrounding areas. I’ve started multiple groups of my own, including a big band, sextet, and trio that all perform my original music. I also play in a few other established groups as an (artistic) sideman. All of this has left me feeling incredibly fulfilled and grateful that I decided to follow my gut. I also do some teaching at a couple of colleges, and I try to-as you say-be as real as I can with my students about this very topic. As far as the problem you mention of colleges solely training jazz majors to be artists, I think the opposite problem also exists at some schools. Sometimes jazz majors aren’t sharpening their artistic skills well enough to even be a working jazz musician once they’re out of school. Another thing I see a lot is that professors naturally guide students down the path that they themselves took, without thinking about or even asking the students what they want to become. I think we all need to find the thing that makes us happy, and stay focused on it. It’s easy to look at someone else and think you should follow their path. Deep down we each know what is best for ourselves. To all the working warriors and artistic soldiers - keep doing your thing!

As a lifelong working musician, I agree 100% that these conversations should be had at formal institutions on day 1. I went to music school and I don't regret it at all. But there's a world of knowledge I've learned out in the real world that never gets discussed in music school that I think, as do you, that doesnt get taught. How to make a living in this modern landscape should be a mandatory class. Music schools are woefully fossilized in the past. But thats a separate topic. Thank you for discussing this topic.

Also, shoutout to musicians with a day job.

You know, the more this video went on, the less I thought about myself funny enough. For my entire life I've been told I'm highly introverted and highly focused solely on myself, and still today I believe I am almost entirely focused on myself. This, by artist vs. working musician logic, would mean I am much more of an artist as I've never truly sought out gigging. First of all thank you Patrick for bringing this conversation up, because all though I've been told "Scott you gotta start making a name for yourself" I never really had worked completely on my Working Musician skills. Now would be a good time to start. Like I was saying, as the video went on I started to really think about my close friends and colleagues. I am in my second year of college at Temple University, and I'd like to think we have access to a crazy faculty (terell stafford, tim warfield, justin faulkner, John Swana, etc.). I've seen the difference in artist versus working musician as some of the students here really connect with these teachers and make their way into The Top Band here, while other (including myself) choose to focus on oneself. It's really interesting though because there are some students here that seem to focus on what I would assume is becoming more of a working musician, although they choose to have a very different (not bad) sound on their respective instruments from the "norm", whatever that means. I might have a conversation with them and see which they would prefer to call themselves. Because In my mind their sound is personally undesirable for gigs however they seem to be working on working. Maybe they do consider themselves an artist more than a working musician? who knows, until you ask. Anyhow thanks for coming to my ted talk, and thanks again pat for the awesome content!

This is a great conversation that needs to happen! As a jazz professor in the Midwest, I try to help teach my students skills to go in either direction. Really appreciate the conversation. I think it is so important to know where we want to end up as musicians and be working toward that goal.

Hey Patrick, I think I can offer some perspective from the classical side of schooling here, having gone through two performance degrees and then having worked on crossing over into jazz / commercial / folk scenes after school. I believe you’re analysis of the music industry and education here is 100% spot on. The trouble within classical schools, from my own experience and from what I’ve heard, is that not only is there no focus on the development of working musician skills (beyond timeliness and rehearsal etiquette); the agency of a performer’s artistry itself is almost completely stripped away from them by removing any focus on improvisation, composition, or arrangement. Because that labor is split more heavily in the classical scene between composer and performer, it creates a viscous cycle where both composers and performers attempt to climb the artist ladder over each other, often exploiting each other for the other’s labor in the process. The result is an emphasis on gaining clout for oneself from academic institutions and one’s own peer groups, surviving off of patronage as a soloist or chamber group by breaking into the limited established performance institutions that exist (or grinding to make your own scene), and having developed little to no practical skills to use in the wider industry for commercial success because the focus of skill cultivation has been exclusively placed on artistry insulated within academic, peer, and patronage circles. Performers are often left with the ability to realized composed music within artist-focused scenes… and not much else. There’s really no skill development oriented towards audience interest or commercial success. I consider it to be a great disservice and arguably a blatant lie to be instructing students on how to achieve career success as performers, without giving them many practical skills to use in the industry.

Thanks, Patrick, for another great discussion! Seeing the real of the learning and playing of music is certainly something anyone should deeply consider if they are into learning/playing. I remember back in the '80s when I was considering career paths that the artistic path was not going to be for me. I saw it as something for prodigies because they have the best chance of "making it." I was never a good artist, per se, so I didn't even consider the fine arts as a possible career path. I grew up in one of the "worst" cities in Massachusetts, on welfare, and I saw education as step one, and pursuit of a career with stability was step two. As a result, I ended up in education these past 30+ years, and I have mostly adored it--until I moved to the admin side. Now, in my 50s, I am eager to get to retirement (62), when I can focus on the arts, especially my bari sax and bass guitar playing. My dream in my twilight years is to achieve the level of busker, where the playing is for me, and whatever coinage I might make is just icing on the cake. Heck, I might even meet interesting people along the way! I'm sad for the state of the music scene nowadays. Young people, even the prodigies, have a tough road ahead, as earning a living as a musician/artist is damned near impossible now, at least in the US. I'm glad my calling was teaching so that my next chapter can be to focus on the joys of learning and playing, and not need to get beaten down by the business end of it all. Bravo to you and all the working musician/artists out there who keep the struggle going!! Keep the faith!!

Thanks for talking about this. I NEVER considered that there's a difference, and I'M A WORKING MUSICIAN

I have a regular gig playing in a cover band for 4 months at a time. I'm able to save a lot of money during these contracts and then the income allows me to do artistic things that I was never able to do before like pay for studio time to record my original music, hire the specific cats I want to work with, buy the instruments I've always wanted. Seeking out 'money gigs' as 'working musician'' has actually contributed in huge ways to my personal artistic life and its something I'm really proud of.

Great video and topic Patrick! Indeed overlooked by many schools, but a very real struggle for most musicians, even to the point that I know it's this incompatibility leading into depression and even taking own lives unfortunately... I wonder, would you have some kind of sets of questions that people could answer for themselves to clear up the path they want to take? I think many people haven't thought his through to much, and wouldn't know how to decide on that. That would make a great next video, just a thought. All the best and good luck with you move to Japan!

As a drummer who grew up being mentored by a bassist, I learned that playing the instrument that I do, I’ll get much more work as a sideman than I would as a leader. I do both now, but I take the opportunity I have as a leader to put together arrangements and explore my artistry, where as my side man gigs range from bebop, rock, funk, big band, singer/songwriter, and endless more things. I notice when I’m working a lot more as a sideman, I just don’t have the bandwidth to focus on putting together my arrangements for the fewer gigs I have as a leader. There’s space for both, but I think you’re on the money where you need to think about what you want for yourself and how you spend your time cultivating your goals.

I was in artist mode for a long time, especially when I was in college 30 years ago. Alot has changed for me in that time. Now I just want to play anything people give me. However, trying to figure out how to be a working musician when you don't know anyone in a city you've never lived in before has been a struggle. I love your videos.

You need to speak about these various topics out at universities. I don’t think these colleges are against seeing their students succeed, so maybe this would help open eyes.

Great video as always. I'm a huge advocate of intentionality. People have to know why they do the things they do and what they want to accomplish. I decided long ago to be an "artist".... I literally call my music "me music" and have a career outside of it. I would almost say music schools are flat out duping students by not giving them the perspective and tools to go into a career in music with open eyes. But that's not unique to music schools....

Great thoughts, Patrick .. I was trained at MSM as a classical pianist in days when the jazz program at MSM was just beginning (1974) I love the Venn diagram analogy because there is much overlap between practicing and working to achieve your best self on your instrument and what you are actually going to do with that skill set once you graduate- as it turns out, my life became 30 years of teaching music in public elementary schools - now that I’m finally retired and not spending my life writing lesson plans , I have more time to devote to learning repertoire and really getting into playing and trying to learn some jazz skills -- best of luck in Japan- we will miss you in NYC

I wish I would have learned this in college. They really are two different things and the most financially successful musicians I've known viewed it simply as a business, which killed me as a purist for the art. Took years to reconcile.

This right here. It opened my eyes more than anyone else has told me in the 18 years of doing this stuff so far. Clarity between these two avenues is the most important thing in my opinion, cause without that, it’s easy to get lost in the wind trying to find something to hold on to. To this point, I also feel like it takes a bit of patience too to see things through, as you mentioned “taking risks” are one of the things necessary to make steps in a direction (doesn’t mean you’ll go forward). One might want to find a conclusion too quickly, and it can be easy to get caught up in the achievements/end goals that cause to loose essence of the process to getting there. Food for thought, there’s so many ways for us to make our dreams a reality.

Artist: Actualizing *your own* ideas Working Musician: Actualizing *someone else’s* ideas

Music is glamorous. So you have to put your reason aside if you buy into the glamour of an artist. If you are lucky you already have the money and people needed to be an artist. Most students don't have that, but they have certainly bought into the dream. Then they get out of music school and end up teaching (which is selling the dream they had initially bought into, to other people). Reality falls short. They blame the school, but the school has probably lied to them (For example, giving the statistic that 80% of the graduates will be working “in the industry.” But not telling them that it means working the cash machine in a Music Store). You have to have a monstrous ego to ward off depression, rejection, and bad feelings that come from being competitive in the music industry. Usually, the small one-room flat the musician lives in is the inverse of the ego needed. A massive ego is needed to sustain that lifestyle. That's why many musicians are Buddhists - they have massive egos that need to be in check. But the musician's dream of success, that airy bit of fluff and nothingness, will eventually crush the musician if he has to hold it up for a lifetime. It will grind him down. So there is a point in life where you have to give up on it for your mental health. In fact, you have become real and see the truth. The stark reality is that there are more million-dollar lottery winners every week (at least two a week in Canada) than there are the next Taylor Swifts, Elton Johns, Buddy Miles, Bill Evans, etc. You have a better chance with the lottery than becoming these household names. Whether a movie star, sports star, rock star, etc... it's all about star glamour, but the reality is that, like a shining mackerel lying on the beach, it starts to stink. That's the first half of the grisly tale... wait to see what awaits once you do become an “artist.”

This year I graduated from college with a bachelors in (classical) music performance. I have been torn between straying from my classical training to follow my passion in expressing myself through jazz/contemporary music and going all out with being a professional gigging musician. I know that fully pursuing the "artist" side of things will damage or even jeopardize my opportunities in the professional gigging world: the very thing I spent thousands of dollars towards training myself to do. I am also aware that if I go all-in on honing my skills to take professional orchestra auditions for jobs that would pay the bills I would be sacrificing my own personal fulfillment in the kinds of music I want to play. But after watching this video, I know that if I want to make music my career I personally have to prioritize marketing myself as a desirable asset to conductors, music directors, and band leaders to ensure that I can have a reliable future for myself in music. It is for sure a sacrifice to steer away from the music I personally want to pour my energy into, but I think it's more about being REALISTIC about my situation and my long-term goal for myself. Thank you for starting this conversation and I plan on continuing it with my peers.

I’m not even a musician but this resonates with me as a visual artist. Most of my classes centered around “fine arts” and getting into galleries, when the fact is youre going to have to work outside of that to be able to sustain yourself. It took me struggling to sell paintings as a vendor to rlly understand ppl dont usually want to drop $100 or more on a painting that took 10+ hours bc they simply cant afford it. So I had to make prints and find other methods of production in order to sustain myself as a working artist- its tough, I’m still in the process of learning. All i know is that i still want to be an artist, even if i have to be both a working artist and an artist.

Glad you made this video. All of humanity has to work for others, or else Mother Nature will find a way to kick you out of this planet. If someone doesn’t provide value to anyone other than themselves, then they are living off of someone else’s labor, which usually doesn’t last forever. I’ve never understood the sense of entitlement some people have that they should just deserve everything for doing nothing other than blowing air through a metal tube. Of course we need to serve others; that’s our entire purpose in this short life, and life will reward you for it.

I'm glad I was able to see the truth and reality while still being in undergrad. Another issue is other bands or musicians will undercut by negotiating a lower price.

Especially in genres that don't necessarily require great amounts of technical skill, it's a lot of the things surrounding playing music that can set you apart. In pop and rock music, just showing up on time, being prepared and organized can already set you apart from a lot of other people in a way that can land you a lot of gigs. Being professional and dependable can go a long way, especially if the groove you need to hold down is quite basic. Being able to provide transportation for touring, having some technical skill or equipment can go a long way. On the other hand, if you want to be making things, I think its really important to take a step back every now and then and remond yourself if you're working for yourself right this moment of if you're trying to provide value to someone in the industry (might be a client, bit it might also just be your inner critic trying to compare what you're making to some kind of conception of an "industry standard"). Not recognizing this at times really impeded my ability to have fun with music and just being able to play for a time.

This topic is probably the MAIN reason I experienced such strong disillusionment post-college. I didn't even realize that while I was in music school I was working on the kinds of skills that would help me be more suited to being a working musician. And ever since having to come back to my home town most of the projects that I have been part of fell into that category, and it's led to me having a lot of issues with music and its role in my life. Only recently have I started thinking about what projects I do and also start saying no to things so I can free up more time for artistic fulfillment.

Patrick, this is honestly one of the best YT discussion vids I’ve seen in a loonng time. For me personally I’m just grateful to be doing music for a living. I graduated Berklee in late 2019 as an alto sax performance major and moved back to my home city of London, England. Since leaving I’ve just been trying to do as many gigs as I possibly can (DJ Sax, session work from my home studio, recording studios, teaching, production for other artists) in order to fund my own artistic path as a smooth jazz artist.

Made some great points. I feel Not everyone should be labeled an Artist just because they went to school. The better term is Artistic Support. Whether that be for self or for the supporting others in artistic endeavors. To be considered an “true artist” a level of notoriety or acknowledgement should be reached. A working musician should be considered a noble occupation. Not looked at as a person in the background or lesser talent. Without the working Musicians or artistic support the artist is in a dark room playing by themselves. No recording or means to get the art to others.

Got some originals and arrangements ready for my NY debut as a bandleader, ended up having 5 people in the audience at the brewery and lost a little money. But it was the kick I needed to get 2 hours of music together for the future, and the gig was fulfilling and fun. Week later I flew out to Palm Beach and played with an ABBA tribute band and paid my months rent. It's either that or getting a barista or coding job...

Totally agree! I think the main difference in the artist vs working artist /musician, is that you need a bunch of fundamental skills in order to work with others fast and efficiently (being able to hear chord progressions quickly, sight reading, learning patterns on the fly) in order to be working with other musicians. But being an artist requires none of those skills what so ever. Its just about creativity and what you put together from what you feel. In my opinion you can definitely balance both (and i feel like most musicians are) but its emotionally (and physically) draining.

I like going to work for my money and playing music when I get home to enjoy myself.

When I decided I want to be a "classical" saxophonist, I did not realize that's more of a field for the artist, so I begrudgingly took up Jazz/commercial saxophone so that I could get gigs. I never got good at either 'cause I was unknowingly torn between wanting to be this amazing classical saxophonist but also wanting to be a working musician. Issa evil world we live in, lol.

Important topic indeed. One major component to include, especially in this tech age, is marketing. Leaning into the artist route seems to require more savvy in promotion or knowing and being tight with people who are into it. Whereas the working musician route affords the delegation of those worries to the entity/people hiring you, sort of thing. As someone who is caught trying to hop onto the artist train I sought out for, there is a way to progress on both fronts, fusing the two realms and that is to market yourself or start a band and hustle. Get your ideas, music out there and network with business people in the process. This enables, eventually your artistry to be the substance of your music at work. - A California Jazz musician

I needed to hear this. Thank you.

Bro i was just saying this in my Highschool Methods class (how to teach highschool band kids). They asked if you could create a course to teach in a hypothetical school, what would it be? I called it gigging 101, teaching students how to be a working musician. They said why "they dont teach us how to be a musician in the real world." Not everyone is gonna get symphonies and masterclassess. anywho i digress

Small story about ‘artist’ vs ‘working musician’. I’m a weekend warrior now (semi-retired!) but used to gig a lot (UK) on Trumpet in lots of ‘working’ bands and played a few gigs with a fantastic guitar player who put together bands for functions etc. He booked a sax player who was a well known musician. However, the day of the gig this guy phoned in (yes we used to phone back in the day!) to say he was in a different city and didn’t have a car but could get there by train - upshot was I drove to the train station to pick him up. He hadn’t learnt any of the material for the gig (although it was the usual function stuff) and basically the rest of the horn section had to help him with the changes etc. When it came to soloing he was superb but I will never forget what the guitar player who called the gig said about him - “I don’t care if he’s Charlie Parker reincarnated I need someone who is professional”. He was never booked again with the band. Sometimes you just need a team player who works to make the whole better.

I should have been told this sixty years ago. One thing you might have added is the importance of being pleasant company if you want to get and keep work.

This is a really fantastic discussion. I’ve been a working musician for many years, really enjoyed your point of view and opinion s. Especially “do your job” .

Sending this to a bunch of people. It's great to hear thoughts I've had echoed back at me through the lens of someone that has really been in the scene and worked hard. Thank you!

As someone who's not interested in making music but likes knowing more of the behind the scenes, this was really neat to hear, and some of the bits felt like they definitely apply to fields outside of jazz/music too.

Actually according to the Oxford dictionary they don’t really even say that we musicians are artists. That’s the first problem. I am a music artist who also happen to be a career student. I Always like to learn. You are right on. I actually went back to school because I noticed that all the cats on the scene sounded like they went to school. It was more of them than it was cats like me who learned on the jam sessions or church or out side of school. So felt like I should get some of that in my sound so that I can communicate with the musicians. There used to be a stigma about cats that have to work or teach. They used to say they were failures. You are totally right. Time is the major thing. How do you want to spend it? The thing you can’t get back so we should do what should you are here to do. That which makes you happy. All these things you will not learn at school. Especially if you study music at school. Jazz specifically.

These real talks I've really needed to keep me grounded bro I 'preciate em all LOL God bless man

I work with high school and college-level students and this is straight 💯. Thank you for this!!🙌

Wow this is such an interesting video. I think it really points out how different the jazz scene is now compared the "golden age" of jazz music. With the advent of modern technology and the age of information, music has become infinitely more diverse. Every musician has an infinite library of music to listen to and model their personal style and taste. Back in the 50s for example, your only access to recorded music is whatever they play on the radio, whatever you can afford at your local music store, or whatever records your friends had. The reason that classic jazz is such a developed musical idea is because it was all they had for a long period of time. Jazz was a lot of different peoples takes on one idea/subgenre with little outside influence. whereas today, jazz is now many peoples takes on many different ideas and subgenres of music that has been heavily influenced in many directions by all other forms of music. Being a working jazz musician back in the day meant that for the most part you could always at least be focusing on the same kind of music that you were developing your creative voice off of. Today it seems that you must be much more versatile and willing to play things that take inspiration from many sources that you are unfamiliar with. Of course you can also look at this in a more positive light and see how many opportunities there are to hear and learn diverse musical styles, but it is quite difficult to part with the idealistic image of only focusing on classic jazz and perfecting your personal take on that collective idea. I guess all of this is why artists like you are so nice to listen to, you do such a wonderful job to uphold and perfect the art form of the past while bringing in modern influences and combining it all in such a beautiful, unique and interesting way. It is also wonderful that you share your ideas with us through these videos and streams. Thank you Patrick

I agree with you 100%! Artist vs Working Musician are two different mindsets and you need some different tools for realization of these careers. Either way, to have a career with longevity, you need to be VERY GOOD at whatever you choose to do.

Thank you for talking about this, I hadn't really thought about it this way conciously so I appreciate it. For me, I need to be real with myself but also need to keep loving music no matter what because the joy and love of music is a separate thing from my tangible life as a musician. Thank you again for your beautiful playing and thought provoking words!

Thanks so much for this one! I’ll be chewing on this for a while.

Four years at University studying Music and I feel like you covered it better than any of lecturers ever did. My lecturer Marian Jago described it similarly in her Popular Music Studies course which she teaches to undergraduates, but you did it in such a direct way!

Amazing video, Patrick. Institutions should definitely bring this up on the first year, not only in conservatories but also in institutions that form future teachers, so they don't put years of their lives thinking that they'll work on stage instead of inside a classroom.

Great video, I've found some kind of alternative for this if you have music production skills and it's sync licensing you it's a long term hustle but you can make money form making your music and also make music that is specifically made for sync. Jazz music can get some placement but it's also way harder to get placements with jazz than with rock or raggeton for example. So... It's an alternative but It still being kind of complicated for jazz musicians.

VERY TRUE!!!!

Brother!!!! This is so important!! I lived this most of my life after college. Especially when you don't go to a scene where things are happening and you do normal life stuff like getting married and having a family!

This is a fantastic lesson for us all, I currently coincided myself a working musician and have worked with several artists on their projects at the same time. Had a nice balance for a while, meanwhile trying to forge my own expressive path and voice. My only thing I’ve learned is that I’ve seen lots of several bands and artists that have never practiced or worked on their instrument (some I have been a part of, and being honest with me at that). Some just want the stardom and instant success and do strike it lucky. I used to have a problem with that as I’ve put hundreds of hours in, but being honest and knowing what is commercial and the music business climate it is was it is. I’m just happy I’m getting somewhere with my sound and voice whilst working a working musician. Hope this makes sense! Incredibly valuable and powerful video man!! 🙏✌️🎶🎹🎼

That's good time to hear you talking about this topic

Thank you so much for sharing Patrick. So necessary. I absolutely believe that the best way to focus strictly on being an "artist" in this time is to have some sort of part - time side hustle that can eliminate some of the clutter that comes with being an adult AKA bills and give folks the space to dive deep into that path... because its a beautiful path... but it can turn "dark" if things are not balanced. Whenever I've tried to do both "Working musician" + "Artist" I notice that quickly everything can start to turn into a "me" thing... this leads to heavy bouts of loneliness and can definitely lead to depression, because both requiere so much time and dedication... This is not what I want for myself or any of my artistic community... And you're right... NO ONE ever mentions this in an educational setting. Much love!

Something that’s deeper about being a working musician than the fact that “it doesn’t require you to be the best” is that it does not require you to be *your* best

Please do more real talk podcast please, I love it. I’m from Thailand, a working musician on cruise ship. Definitely hard to dedicate time as an artist but at least I don’t have to worry about the money that much. Hopefully I can set myself more as an artist in the future. Cheers bro 🎉

Thanks, I like rhe combo of working and being an artist seperately. I weld and do veggie gardening amoung other homeateading skills.

In the gigging world, people hire people that can do the job, and they like to hang with. And that has a good vibe on and off the bandstand. The hang is super important.

OMG… you hit the button… In past years I had my own band and the only thing I wanted to be was to be an artist. We hit a lot of good gigs, but it ended and I’d been hired as a working musician. That took me through a lot of thinking of dissapointing to myself. Now I’m in my 40’s and still am a working musician. The pandemic knocked me down about being an artist and I’m still trapped in that hole because the music industry has changed a lot and I don’t know what I want to be. I want to thank you for this video. This is helping me a lot to think what I want to be again.

This video makes me really grateful to have grown up with artist parents and for my skillset to be a working musician. It was very clear to me from a super young age what my parents did as artists vs what they did for "money work." Realized but never fully processed that that's a distinction so many people haven't understood or made in their lives. I think its great to start this conversation and its awesome that you're using your platform to bring things kinds of things into the discussion!

I had a professor that I really didn't like in college. She chose favorites, and I was not a favorite. If you were struggling in her class and you were not a favorite, she would rudely refuse to help you. Sometimes, I've wondered if it was me and I misread her, but it was confirmed by other professors in the department that she did do this to several students. However, in one conversation with her, she asked me why I wanted to be a musician. Admittedly, after watching this video, my explanation at the time for the bill for an artist. She told me "Well I enjoy breeding dogs and doing dog shows, that doesn't mean I can make a living at it. " I was very affronted by this. I let this affect me more than I should have, and it played a part in changing my major. But I wonder if she was just trying to be real and illustrate this point you are making. Maybe she felt a responsibility for getting people out before they got out in the real world. Because our music department spent a lot of time creating artists and not enough time creating working musicians (aside from teaching).

This is what I’m talking about! Thank you Patrick. You understand me and we barely know one another. I’ve been saying this for years.

Did some stuff as a working musician, for several years played my hands to the bone for indeed very little reward and few opportunities for true self-expression. Found I am much happier teaching and working on my own projects in my own time. Still don't regret the degree in music, it opened a whole world for me.

If I've learned anything from the DIY punk grind in Atlanta, its that you gotta make your own work. You wanna make money with your artistic expression, you gotta book your own show that you headline.

interesting topic but here is something different to think about i am A WORKING MUSICIAN WHO IS AN ARTIST !! i work when people call me to BE MYSELF !!i respect all musicians that just work FOR someone else ,,i have done that too at the beginning ,but after i was able to work hard enough to become an artist with SOMETHING OF MY OWN TO SAY i was called to play my music ,,and that called A WORKING ARTIST !!

Excelente video! Para pensar. Es enriquecedor. Gracias!

As I step into a career as an artist, I'm having to separate myself from being a working musician. I'm glad you posted this cuz I was thinking about this recently too. Thanks, Patrick, hope to play with you soon!

So much truth in everything you say. . . . I’ve been playing 50 years now and realized that ‘you’ don’t need to be the best to get the ‘working musician’ jobs - just ‘competent’. I’m a sax/doubler. My flute chops are quite good, but sometimes a show will have impossible flute parts that a real flute player would tackle-whereas the sax part doesn’t really matter the same . . . .

Unfortunately I don't have the time to watch the full video, but this IS something I've thought about a lot, and I've taking to thinking of an ARTISAN. I was reading a book about japanese woodworking tools and it talked about the role of the "shokunin", who provides a skill for a CLIENT, which is an important distinction. Working musicians are artisans, which is not a bad thing but should be respected

I get many comments about how good my music is, then asking me why I don’t try to make money with it. The answer is always the same: I want to keep music as my hobby, making music for money is way different than what I do

Thank you patrick. Always great to hear things from you.

I love this practical thinking. It feels like the beginning of a conversation about strategy and how to best educate musicians in the future. In many ways, this is a critique of music education, especially at the college level. It's also a great way to give power to those who want to make music a career and think they have to be "the best" to be musical professionally. I teach high school AND I perform, only now can I really think about the artistic side of my musicianship. So when students talk to me about this I make sure they understand the idea that they are a business and I use that to talk about plans and strategy and investment (time and money). Also, I'd love to see you create that Venn Diagram! I think that Venn Diagram would actually help create the practical lesson plans and curricula of the future. So much great content here, Thank you! Congrats on your move!

Thanks a lot for saying this out loud and clear. The difference is SO important to make. As a college and university teacher, I do my best to explain that to my students.

This topic isn’t talked about enough so thank you for making this video 🙏 I came a similar realization a few months ago having been primarily a working musician in LA and wondered why I was feeling incredibly burnt out. That late night hit into an early morning rehearsal is rough!! I’ve had to make some changes in my life but I’m transitioning into focusing more on being artistic while keeping a small handful of working gigs. I wish I had known that there’s a difference when I left school!

I’ve literally been thinking about this exact topic for years now and it’s something that no one at my music school, including professors and directors, ever talked to me about. When I left music school 3 years into it, I decided I wanted to pursue music on my own terms rather than being forced to perform to meet someone’s agenda. Funny enough, playing saxophone pretty much made into an artist and that’s what I think I always wanted to be. Ever since I started playing jazz in high school I loved to improvise and improvising led me learn about composing. I became obsessed with experimenting with different sounds and that led to trying to learn every instrument I could get my hands on. Music school honestly kind of killed my creativity because I was constantly being told the sounds that I liked were wrong and that music had to fit had to into a specific framework for it to be worthy of studying. Being away from it now has honestly made me the most depressed I’ve ever been because I’ve been caught in this place between not being good enough to get called for the gigs like I used to, and having so much versatility creating musical ideas but not being able to bring those ideas to life. Thank you so much for this video 🙏🏾 I hope it can reach the masses because this information could seriously save lives. Much love ❤🎷

At the end of the day you must love what do whether you are an artist or a working musician, even if you are getting payed large amounts of money if you don't love what you do you will end up hating it and regretting in the long run and this is true with every possible profession on this planet not just music, even if you love playing music or instruments just as a hobby or pastime but you are not even earning one cent out of it if you love what you do then that's f--king great, I have been playing guitar and piano on and off for forty five years and I did not start learning how to play until I was eighteen years old and even now nobody even knows about me, that's why I call myself the warrior unknown, and I still try to write songs or instrumentals even now and that's because I love what I do and I live my life for now not for some future reward. P.S the only advice that I can share with you all is try to be a virtuoso with everything that you do even if it's only washing the dishes, try to see everything that you do as being important even the little insignificant things, because big things have small beginnings, maybe this could be helpful to all you music making monsters out there, so keep on keeping on and remember to love what you do.

One thing. Even as an artist playing my own music I have always valued the mind-meld aspect of playing with other musicians. But as a “working musician”, in a big band or even a 3 horn section, even though I’m playing someone else’s music exactly as they wrote it, I’m still trying to get that mind-meld spiritual connection with my fellow players. We are building a sound together and we all have to hold this spinning ball in the air together. This is a skill one must have to work for someone else, and it’s also a skill you must have for people to want to play your music. So musically, it’s not as big a dichotomy as it sounds like. But this is a good conversation to have, especially with people just starting out.

pure gold ideas! thank you !

Thank you!

From a non-music perspective... I don't think I want all of my favorite musicians to take it this far, but the music world would be better off if at least some considered themselves "entertainers". I think older musicians (mostly dead...) were more likely to say something funny here and there that they had planned in advance like a script/stage patter. I laughed at least a couple of times when I saw Benny Golson at Birdland when he was in his 70s, but I can go find any number of musicians who may never even make eye contact with or speak to the audience. I laughed at something James Carter said, something Marcus Roberts said... Certainly, the golden age of jazz featured a number of extremely entertaining personalities that were carefully crafted stage personas. You don't have to be "yourself" on stage and the more empathy a performer has for his or her audience, the better a career they'll have. If you never saw them live, you might think many of the jazz greats were deadly serious with a grave demeanor on stage (and of course some of them were), but a fair percentage of the true greats developed stage patter that was interesting/humorous etc., that worked and entertained. They paid attention to the reaction of the audience and tweaked their shows for maximum audience enjoyment.

You’re assessment is spot on man and has been my experience from graduating university with a jazz degree to figuring out how to make a living as a “working musician” and finding the balance between that and artistry

I don't know how I got here but this is spot on. I talk to my friends about this all the time, but you have put language to it. THANKS

Some real stuff in here. 6 years ago when I got out of school I had no idea what I wanted to do with my career. More accurately: I did not know what would be possible for me. I think what really called me from the time I was a kid was like you put it, hearing music that moved and inspired me and wanting to do the same. With the whole going to college (which I didn't want to do, personally) and making a career in music (still didn't know what that meant after 5 years in school) I felt a lot of pressure that I had to be a Serious Working Man in order to justify my choices. I thought the formula was just work on your craft, show up, lay it down, and maybe go to the hangs after. To some degree that is true, but there is an additional amount of putting yourself out there that is necessary whether you are trying to sell your Art to an audience or your Skills to someone with a gig. I guess what I now realize is that getting more gigs began to feel like a necessary burden rather than something I wanted for myself, and I didn't really believe in myself enough as an Artist (along with being highly burnt out after college) to put that side of me forward. At this point I think I understand the distinction enough to know what it is I want. I still have a desire to keep my skills sharp and be ready in case the phone rings, but I ultimately want to gear my self towards creating. I am not in the best environment to pursue that goal yet, but I try to appreciate how much understanding I've gained of myself and the game at large over the years. Not all of us will have/have had the guidance to sort these things out + whether the storm that is life, so props to you for putting this conversation forward!

Thank you so much. Instant subscribe.

Brilliant!

Being an artist is a life long journey, no different than being a MONK.That’s what I love about this life.

This is a great video Patrick, thank you! Sharing with my students for sure!

Excellent video man. Thanks!

WORD! Yeah you are spot on, my friend. Man, how I wish someone would have told me this shit back in the day. I'm in L.A., practicing my ass off for 6-8 hours a day. I answer an add for a drummer, ready to impress them with my killer fucking groove. The first question is, "What's your image?"...and, WELCOME TO THE MUSIC BIZ! (Now I have a great career in I.T.!) Good on ya man. Tell the truth. You can be a working musician but be realistic about what the job actually entails. Including the constant travel and how to work with the occasional "crazy diva who doesn't pay on time" (a real quote to me, from a working musician who plays with "The Big Names"). Bravo.

Coltrane became Coltrane the same way the Beatles became the Beatles, they lived in a time when studios were affordable and not producing music for sale but were the tools of the musicians using those studios. The minute studios became privatized was the minute the artist became a non-artist working musician acting as a ‘free agent’.

Got my popcorn ready for this one!

These videos are so refreshing!

This is really a great video and channel. I really respect how clear-headed and articulate you are, and at the same time being such an incredible saxophonist and artist!

I'd like to offer another perspective. Mainly, I want to focus on the comment you made that being an artist means focusing on yourself, while being a working musician means focusing on the needs of other people. You could very well make an argument that, in fact, it is the other way around. We would need to ask ourselves why people do art, and why do people enjoy art. Right of the bat, we would need to make a distinction between "enjoying art" and "consuming art", and this distinction will be mentioned again in my conclusion. In my opinion, enjoying art implies connecting with the artist in some way. It has been said many times that art is a means of invoking empathy. But, I would like to expand on this: we, as humans, want to be understood, and want to understand each other, on a fundamental level. And art is a means to bridge that gap. It will never be possible, but this longing to connect with other people (can this be something other than love?) is shared by everyone. This tendency is fundamental to art, as is the impossibility of achieving this goal. So, it is in MY greatest interest, as an art enjoyer, that all of my favorite artists have as much freedom as possible to explore their inner self, not just work on their craft. I want to "see them". I'm not accustomed to reading poetry, but this form of art is a perfect example of this tendency. Music is a bit more abstract, but the same argument can be applied here: I want to experience what the artist experiences, or what they try to invoke. Music is an indispensable component of my life, as is for many in this community. So, then, why isn't this activity of "making art" considered work? It is an activity that makes living on this planet more enjoyable, or at least bearable. The problem, I think, is the way how "work" is de facto viewed at in the modern society. The value you get in return for your work is not proportional to the value you produce. We work to survive in the "free" market and/or increase the profit of our shareholders. The reason I put the word free in quotation marks is because there cannot be a free market as long as the system allows the creation of monopolies, and when there is such a power discrepancy between the employer and an employee. This makes an environment where it is hard to "stay true to yourself". Furthermore, art, like everything else, has become a commodity. As explained before, in a capitalist society people are more likely to tie their value as a human being to the "value" they have in the free market, which results in a feeling of alienation. For an artist, then, it must be even worse. Your "product" is not just a result of your life-long practice and attention to detail; it is also something personal. You are putting a part of your self in the art you produce. This is a vulnerable position to be in, emotionally, so commodifying the artist's product makes for a stronger feeling of alienation. What is, then, the incentive for someone to become an artist, in a "true" meaning of the word? Since art has become a commodity, it has become a part of "the free market", where people have to compete with labels and media that have amassed a lot of capital, i.e. power. You are, of course, "free" to stay true to yourself, just as you are "free" to choose not to work for a shitty pay in order to wait/fight for a better opportunity and accept the possibility of poverty. But, the system makes it easier for you to make art that is to be "consumed", i.e. it is easier to participate and compete in the market, than it is to be an artist, which, in my opinion, means that you make art that is to be enjoyed (as described in the second paragraph). Needles to say, the two motives put in the opposition will lead to different "kinds of art" (put a marvel movie, a representative of the first class, in opposition to a poem or a song you wrote for your loved one). By the way you described it, I think we would agree that a "working musician" makes music that is to be consumed, while an artist makes the latter. In this way, the "working musician" is putting their needs to survive and lead a more comfortable life ahead of their need to express themselves and the needs of other people to enjoy art (again, as described in the second paragraph). Of course, these distinctions between two types of art and two types of musicians should not serve to categorize art and people, but to describe different forces that are at play in shaping them. I did not mean to say that "there are artists and then there are working musicians" and "there's 'true' art and non-art". I merely wanted to describe the way in which the current socioeconomic structures can not only affect one's life decisions, but how they affect art as well (I realize I barely scratched the surface of this issue). It would be better for everyone if we were aware of these structures and of the way in which they are harmful, and were to work to improve those structures, than to put so much weight on individuals.