This subject is fit for a Patrick B NY Times bestseller, lecture tour, etc. You just need a cigar chomping old guy to give you an advance and promote your book signing and lecture tours.

Your analogy of walking the side-streets in the community instead of driving the highway next to the community is spot on! For me, that pop-highway does provide a value, in that I can just follow the signs and directions to the music of another region or language, with all sorts of different side-streets. Not sure if I want Spotify / Apple to construct the signs and directions though.

Hey Pat, your thesis here is on point and I agree with it, but you’re dancing dangerously close with a field of study that I’m as well versed in as I am with music - political science. I’m not sure if you intended to skirt the perimeter on this, so I’ll keep it brief, but I wanted to offer up some vocabulary and additional points to support your argument. I also perceive things in the world holistically and find that music is the most applicable medium of communication for drawing analogies between many disparate fields of work and phenomena (if not the totality of human experience). The reason why the analogy between “pop music should be consumed as a snack” and “processed foods should be consumed warily and in moderation” is so salient is because, similarly to how the current food *industry* is geared towards manufacturing “perfect food” intended for mass consumption and placation - the current music industry, particularly and specifically the *culture industry*, is geared towards manufacturing “perfect music” intended for mass consumption and placation. What I wanted to add is this - the reason why this all relates to experiences of decadence, alienation, and the regression of cultural development is because these industries are all directly linked to the interests of capitalist profit extraction and consumption optimization. The reality of the conditions that the incentives of surplus profit exploitation create are as you have laid out. Additionally, I would be willing to agree with the premise that “good” and “bad” music exists, as it is analogous to food and the difference between organic food cultivation vs processed food products, is true. I agree that musical taste is like developing taste for food as you grow up - what can you expect from a child who only eats chicken nuggets over family prepared meals in their youth? Of course, things get tricky once moralistic claims come into play, but the focus of the argument for “good and bad music” is not a moral argument because as you said, it is not a claim that “pop music can’t be good” or anything related to the historical relevance of popular music as you explained it. The argument is thus - music assessed on an axis of “good and bad” in this case is determined by its experiential reification according to the culture industry. In other words, the “nutritional value” of music is stripped away and deracinated from its experience the more that a musical product is used for the exclusive purpose of commoditization and/or propagandizing. I included propagandizing here because it serves as an example of how the culture industry does not simply materially harm individuals directly through its processing of musical experience, but that it can be and is equivalently done so in the abstract as an ideological and political tool. The reason why I’m willing to support the hard claim (Important Edit - THIS is the moral claim) of “overconsumption of pop music is harmful” is because of its current relationship with the culture industry and how the culture industry is a byproduct of ideological capitalist incentives to extract economic value at human expense. I’m writing this off the cuff as I just finished the video, and I don’t want to write an essay in the comments, so I’ll stop there. This is something that is of deep interest and concern to me as well, I’m glad you like to broach topics like this Pat.

Prior generations (silent generation and earlier) seemed to have, at least, a respect for "high" art (jazz, classical, classic literature, etc.). I don't mean that most people understood and enjoyed high art, but they were more likely to have some sense that there was something valuable in it... that it was worth investigating and maybe investing some time in trying to appreciate. That respect has diminished generation over generation from the silent generation's children, the baby boomers, to gen X, millennials, and now the zoomers. I like to think that teenagers today are actually reversing the trend with the help of KZfaq which has given them an opportunity to learn about things before their time. People like you and all the other great channels talking about music, film, art, etc. are making a difference in my opinion. When I meet younger people now, they often say they like music from the 90s or 80s. 80s/90s pop music is a step in the right direction and I see a resurgence in cover bands with a good level of musicality playing a lot of classic rock. "Good" pop music can lay the foundation for a listener to dip their toes into jazz/classical in the future.

I totally agree with your perspective, there are a lot of things out there that act as poison to our brains, bad music, fake news, porn, excess of information.

There are quite a few things you talk about that I question or flat-out disagree, but what I believe your main point of focus is, being a conscious and diverse music listener, I absolutely can get behind! You’re getting my gears turning, I thank you for that.

I wrote a paper on this in college like 14 years ago. I'm kicking myself that I didn't include the Frank Zappa quote. That part is gold!

Patrick, I loved this video. You explored a LOT of really contentious topics and analogies in ways I didn't even think about. The idea of pop as "fast food" music had been passed around before, but I had never seen someone challenge it so deeply - whether it's discussing how our taste buds are affected by overstimulation, or how perfect commercial music "sounds like music". Not so far off the adjacent AI arguments that are inevitably coming about what "sounds like music" vs. "what *is* music"... I really think we're gonna see a lot of the same arguments you brought up many years from now. Just as with food and the internet, the only way to survive as a 21st century human is to have a varied diet. You've gotta really work for it and fight the human survival instincts now, because it can be really hard! It feels like a cliché or an empty platitude at this point, but drawing the parallels with food really brings it home, just like the way Socrates would teach using analogies. This is the kinda stuff that's tons of fun to talk about over a few hours with some drinks, but you really gotta look inwards. Big respect for this video - thanks for discussing this!

I loved this so much, your insights are so valuable and well thought. As I was listening, I also realized it is an issue of production. Just a. Couple generations ago, there was no fast food. People mostly made their own dinners in their own house in their own kitchen. A generation before that, most people grew their own food. Now we have a culture where fast food has ravaged our appetites, and we also have food delivery systems that keep you from ever even thinking about walking into your kitchen. The same is true with music, 50 years ago, neighbors would get together and have dinner. Whoever was hosting would entertain, oftentimes by playing music. Most people in the fifties and sixties not only consumed music, but could produce it for themselves with varying levels of skill. Fewer and fewer kids today are interested in learning music, instruments, ear training, sheet music, what have you. This is resultant of a primary principle. We may only cede complete control of our diet when we relinquish the ability to procure it for ourselves. This fast track industry has also created a global culture at the cost of some cultural traditions that made some homogenous cultures uniquely unified in their own borders. It’s all about nature man, are we part of it? Or do we avoid it for convenience

19:59 Overconsumption of jazz: Wynton Marsalis & his opinons on fusion. Overconsumption of rock: Rick Beato. Overconsumption of classical music: oh lmao so many people who think it's inherently superior because it's the best match to the music theory that was specifically created to describe classical music. I don't think the analogy of "nutritional value" inherent to certain types of music, or music created in a certain way works at all. Fast food is bad because of how it interacts with your body in very specific physical ways. Pop music is "bad" for moral-metaphysical wiggly-woo reasons. If you were going at it from the point of view of varied consumption, you'd have a much stronger argument imo. Edit: there's probably also an argument based on the capitalist production & distribution of music/food, but I'm not intellectual enough to pull that one off.

Incredible dissection (Scarlett/Two Ts here by the way) I think it's crazy to think about and apply this to so many other things, just how people take what they're given and seek anything more, and to make matters crazier, will put down other people who do seek more things. How people will look at me funny or make fun of me because I listen to music that they don't listen to because they don't care about it. People who get mad at those who are genuinely passionate and want to learn more. On another note, I'm curious to how this analogy can apply to more specific things on either side. On the side of music, how would radio apply to food. On the side of food, how would the /cost/ of being healthier (like the cost of a salad compared to a burger) apply to music? Not that it's important, just curious.

I like how part of your focus was on agency--getting force fed media versus seeking it out on your own. Is the function of music changing? I think the hope resides in grade school music programs. Just like the music business wrongfully blames the consumer for buying into manufactured "fast food" music, the education system blames students for a dearth of deep thinking. I think we've got an opportunity to dive deeper into "student agency" and go beyond the buzzword. More people are getting into vinyl, and those discoveries at the used record stores. That discovery can happen anywhere with any medium, but it requires curiosity and agency. I watched the whole video before commenting this time, working on my listening skills ;)

I think this conversation is one that needs to happen. Like you said, the problems with modern pop music are indicative of a bigger issue. Food and music are now being controlled by big corporations and the people at the top. Pop music is an industry now, and it wants to strip the autonomy away from musicians and music-consumers. This is a major problem, especially to me as someone who loves music as both a producer and a listener, and sees music as an ARTFORM before anything else. I’m a naturally curious person who loves to learn, so I always try to dig deep for great music. Great music is everywhere around the world, but the industries don’t want to showcase any of that, so it’s up to us to find it, to try to understand it, to empathize with it, and to learn from it. I think a truly developed artist is, more often than not, a truly developed person. I don’t like being passively spoon-fed products, I like actively searching for art. Great video, Patrick! ❤

The short melodies that are used in a brands marketing coupled with images of "perfect" looking food, is how the advertisers program the brain. Once the melody is associated with the brand and imagery, its nearly impossible to disconnect them. If you've seen enough McDonlads commercials and I ask you what comes before "I'm Lovin It"? You know the rhythm and melody. There are deep psychological mechanisms at play here and the advertisers know exactly what they are doing. One should ask, what is pop music trying to sell me?

Hey Pat, great video, the music-food analogy has so many connections. I've always thought about the limited time I get to listen to music. In our life, we only have a limited time to consume art, so the time you spend over-indulging in pop music is time you could spend listening to something thats more enlightening and thought-provoking. The more pop you listen to, the less genuine art you listen to.

People say music is the food for the soul for a reason. That said i think the soul and whats good for it and what isnt is a much more complicated and immaterial topic than nutrition which can be much more scientifically measured. All bodies are difrent but souls, souls are even more diverse and maybe some dont need music thats particularly original daring and complex. But this was a great stab at the topic from you especially putting it in the context of widespread apathy, lots to think about here i for sure agree that listening to many genres extends ones aprecieation for all music, i always try to put people on to stuff out of their comfort zone for this reason.

I'm glad that what you're chiefly against, is the idea of never choosing which music you listen to. I'm in a heavy metal jazz band now and so I'm deliberately listening to more metal. For example, right now I'm alternating between Black Sabbath and Roy Hargrove. With the fact that you live in Japan, if you ever collaborate with guitarist Marty Friedman, that'd be fabulous! What do you think of musicians from cultures playing music, not from their culture? I fundamentally dig the grooves of The Jazz Avengers playing fusion. I found a Brazillian death metal band called Crypta, who go extremely hard.

i have a sibling who consistently consumes food by putting on youtube and zoning out, sitting at a table for too long and never actually paying attention to the food. she couldn't be bothered if it was costco pizza or my mom's best stewed fish. i try to tell her about the psychological effects of eating food this way. about how unconscious she's becoming to what she eats, how she is slowly letting the world take away her ability to appreciate a diverse diet. about how she might come to associate a meal more closely with phone-time than as a ritual of culinary art. for the sake of it she'll put her phone away but i know that if i wasn't there she'd just get on her phone because that's what she's been conditioned to expect out of food. by virtue of my mom's cooking, she has a diverse diet. it just saddens me that she's totally apathetic to the diet.

this comment section is beautiful, this is what happens when substantial love and care for art unites the right people

Always great musical conversations on this channel. 🔥🔥💚🤘🏼

I remember being there for the first half of the stream, having to leave halfway through (because i was busy, not angry) thinking "what is this guy cooking?" Now I get it LOL. Very Interesting video!

Right on, Pat! There's lots of great pop music out there (I'm partial to Ed Shereen myself), but just like you pointed out with the diet parallel, a balanced musical diet is necessary to being a balanced human.

I really enjoyed your analysis. You motivated me to look up the definitions of ‘popular’ music and ‘pop’ music. I didn’t do an academic study but a quick search and a few minutes reading. The accessibility you describe was mentioned as was the format of the parts. My training would lead to the question of why? What parts of the brain responds to those stimuli and activation of a response for repeating the stimuli. ‘Popular’ music by Mr. Stan Getz and Mr. Carlos Jobim. ‘Walking in Rhythm” by Mr. Charlie Byrd. ‘Keep that Same Old Feeling’, ‘Street Life’ ‘Straighten Up and Fly Right’ ‘Lush Life’ ‘Caravan’ (everything by Mr. Ellington). Body and Soul’ ‘Misty’, ‘Take Five’ ‘Bolero - Mr. Ravel’ Everything by Mr. Stevie Wonder (I’m sure you can cite more than I can - I think you catch my point). Help me understand how these popular music were also good healthy consumption (just the music execs changed all this?) I witnessed Soca music in Trinidad move into concentrically smaller and smaller circles of stories and innovation 28:28 (I think to appeal to the audience - allegedly). But the must be a way out.

Patrick, I think a lot of points/comparisons you make only make sense if you come at it from the same perspective you have. Who’s to say that Jazz is more deep/genuine/nutritional than a pop song. You can come away from listening to a jazz album just thinking you heard some cool musicianship, while a pop album may evoke much deeper emotions through the lyrics and the really fine tuned instrumentals. In this comparison the pop song would be the 5 star restaurant and the jazz record is the thrown together meal. My point: such comparisons don’t prove anything either way. And from my experience, the people who like pop are often just chill people who don’t have to overthink everything, while the true music connaisseurs are more the ‘in their own head’ type people. Who’s to say who’s more healthy or better off in this comparison. I like some less mainstream music, and I think it’s good if people take the opportunity to be exposed to many things. But I would never say people are somehow misguided for liking mainstream stuff, because you simply can’t know if the way they enjoy their music is less good than how we enjoy ours.

Spotify, Apple Music, pandora. All really big contributions to this terrible cycle. What would you have to say about how this trend in pop is slowing homogenizing the other genres to pop? Love the content btw

anyhow thanks for the immensely applicable analogy as i will be discussing this with people

Yeah man, I've pondered this a lot! Great stuff.

I know my comment has nothing to do with the topic, although I will say that I love some pop music, it can be great sometimes. I really like your videos and your music, your playing, everything. You recently talked about struggling, during a live video you did. I feel sad now because I’m struggling, I cannot make a living with music, and I’ve lost the opotunity of spending a lot of time practicing when I had more time to do so. I would like to feel that despite having a day job, I can still get amazingly better at guitar, practice the famous 10000 hours and even more, and may be some day quit the day job and pursue music as a full time career, if I don’t get to that point, I’ll “at least” be able to play so so great to consider myself a real musician, just like you are, just like you and many of my heroes, who play incredibly good. I’m so depressed I feel music in my life and life itself is over, I’m 26… but still. I don’t know, I diddn’t want to bring negativity to your channel, but I feel lost and expressing how I feel makes things a bit better… thank you

Art and music enriches people in the sense that the more different stuff you listen, the more you become compassionate to different people from different walks of life. If you look at only one type (see the stansardized version of pop you refer to i guess) you lose your capacity of comprehension and compassion for more people and cultures different from yours, so i guess that is the damage. That's the message?

We are literate but barely Critical…who benefits from the lack of our dissent and thought? I’m a 21 year old soon to graduate music student…so much of my life rings true to what you’re saying at the end. What happens once I am no longer stimulated and “the food is gone?”

Very interesting video! Definitely thinking about that now... Also lets all get mad at Pat's message so we can have a drink with him xD

This is especially prevalent with the AI-Generated slop that we've been getting lately. Its the ''Art for marketability'' put beyond the extreme. We're witnessing the murder of Human's purest form of expression purely for profit and they're all telling us that we HAVE to like it, that IT IS THE NORM NOW. As an artist this is absolutely terrifying, and its even more terrifying that there isn't enough people who are terrified about it. Every art I consume from folks who I'm not familiar with have me unconsciously seeking clues of it being AI generated the same way I'll have to look at the small text at the back of a product at the grocery store.

Thanks for this. A lot to think about!

really great theory, well substantiated. thank you.

this is great stuff man! being conscious of everything you consume, and having things in moderation is the only way to really live

If people enjoy it, it’s not inherently bad, but it’s not like there isn’t rightful criticism that it can’t be vacuous and stupid. But it can also be transformative and beautiful.

I just started watching this video but the first thing that this comparison reminds me is the album MM FOOD, which is a whole allegory of rap by using food, check it out!

I love pop music and jazz music

16:17 "We're selling music that SOUNDS like music" Well, Alan Watts warns us not to confuse the menu for the food it represents, and how inevitable it is for us to fall into these traps of symbols, because from the root of language every word points to something, but they're not the thing itself and never will be.

A friend and i have had a name for years for those pop radio's and that typical shitty "euphoric" "action filled" "climax"(music that already like dropped the beat and already reached its "climax" all the time, if you understand). We always call it Mcdonalds-Music.

Hell yeah man. Poignant talk

Thank you so much!

i mean my tinnitus def came from blasting trap beats too loud on my headphones so

Wouldn’t the modern Jazz academia as a whole fall under this train of thought as well given the fact that the vocabulary we depend on to learn write and play has been put into a popular music category in our subculture of music. Wondering your thoughts on this..

Answer is yes. I listened to Charles Ives for 10 minutes and I got a really bad headache.

31:41 MMMMMMMMM🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

If you only have access to Dollar Tree, how could know how valuable a fresh food market is?

I would have thought he knew this years ago

Some remixes of Pop songs are better than the actual songs. Pop is a good way to branch out to other music tbh.

yep

me watching this with a big ass overprocessed ice cream in my hand like: 👁👄👁

Bro do you like Alter Bridge Band

Same argument applies to pornography v actual sexual loving.

They might be lurkin… 😂😂

This is the plot to persona 5

Um, isn’t pop music just the axis progression and its various permutations. I’d hardly call that perfect, ain’t perfect cadence in most pop. It’s just I IV V vi for an hr.

McMusic

Patrick, could you clarify what do you mean by "music that sounds like music?"

I get what you were trying to say with the good food/bad food analogy, but it would be better to substitute "good" and "bad" with "healthy" and "unhealthy." Assigning a moral qualifier to something like food contributes to body dysmorphia and fatphobia. I know this seems like an unnecessarily pedantic distinction, but the language we use conditions our brains to think certain ways. It really is important to be conscious of this sort of thing. Great video otherwise, 100% agree with the premise.

music can be bad for you. for those that don't know musics benefits is also shown to be rooted in the frequency of it with some being worse for your health to listen to (432hz vs 440hz argument.) in addition to that i feel that when you break down music especially pop music theres a plethora of evil/demonic subliminals shown in it which can be easily argued to be bad for you. theres a lot more to delve into but thats just my 2 cents

Comparing effects of fast food on your body to pop music on your brain is the biggest sophism ever. I see here a desdain of what is considered inferior. That's pure snobbery here. Show me the studies demonstrating the bad effect of pop on the brain, because I have found a ton for fast food, and none for pop music.

Pop music is to music what McDonalds is to nutrition.

first!

eating brown rice right now.🦝 great video