Well, as a former Methodist, Cumberland Presbyterian, Baptist, charismatic, Church of God (Cleveland, TN), non-attending who's always been interested in liturgical worship and lives 20 min away... I guess I gotta go check out his church.

Paul, this conversation was especially good. I could see the myriad of paths to explore appearing as the exchange between you two picked up. Thank you Paul for all your thinking out loud and ability to engage others in storytelling.

What Chris says at 1:20:10 is SO CORRECT. So well said. This often gets at my beeves with academia. It can make you smart-dumb.

I hope this conversation will be published on the public channel because I know a lot of people who need to hear it.

Can’t wait to meet Chris at Estuary Northwest 2024.

What an excellent conversation.

Very eager for this. Been off the grid, but happy that I can re-emerge for this…

Good to see you two having a conversation together! Chris’s work long ago was deeply encouraging to me as a Charismatic-Pentecostal looking for permission to love God with all my mind. We’ve been on a shared journey from afar.

I mean, can a guy be more tailor made for TLC than Chris? He even knows many of our talking points in advance.

22:40 yes. Deep point about a communion that’s only a signal/sign: everything to lose, nothing to gain.

Wonderful conversation. I grew up in Tulsa and was born at what used to be the Oral Roberts med school hospital “City of Faith”

I try to stay away from KZfaq during the week, but the podcast pulled me back in to comment. There was a lot to love in this one, and I loved the defense of people from fly-over country.

Dr Chris Green is getting much exposure recently and this is a good thing for the church. He bridges several communities.

Thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. As the non-charismatic half of a mixed marriage (I grew up reformed, she charismatic), this actually sparked some really interesting conversation between us.

This is such a great conversation for two reasons, one is it's gloriously counter-cultural, grown up pastors talking about wise things that push back against the pop-phrases and knee-jerk shoutiness and intolerance of social media and our contemporary society. Also this point about the wisdom of flyover communities vs the shallow patronizing cod wisdom of intellectuals, the people you guys say are from the coast. It reminds me of why I have so little respect for people who just say what they think and don't listen but just shout and bully, and much more for people who are prepared to debate, people who help those around them, people who, as one wise old lady in church once said to me "do what's in front of them". This was a great talk Paul, thanks .

Hello from a kitschy fly over state! : )

Really enjoyed listening to the conversation. Thank you Paul.

Pumped to listen to this

His story about instantaneously singing to mary is a great example why some Christians find great solace in reaching out to the Saints. They are more relatable than the king of kings, and can help introduce you

28:50 George MacDonald’s Lilith transformed your vision of reality? Exactly the same for me. ❤

The overlap between Chris's story and my story is surprising. A lot of parallel themes (growing up in a very strict religious environment. The explosion of that upbringing. Then finding a way through mysticism and sacramentality back into a relationship with Christ.)

Around 1:01:50 Addiction to simplifying: just bumped up against McGilchrist. To open us up to the complexity, we should probably learn to tell stories again. Of course, with Estuary everyone gets to tell and listen to a story… So glad he seems to be familiar with Martin Shaw too. Can’t wait to meet this guy. Love hearing him talk about the complexity of American Christianity.

Yes!

1:25:13 man this hits at a lot of levels for me lately. I grew tired of the theological debate, and just want to know what should I do? I gave up on constitutional arguments and monetary policy because studying all that 1:26:32 distracts me from points that actually help me live. And regardless of what I don’t know, I’m called to work hard at what I don’t know. But I don’t, because “what if?” I crave certainty and am unwilling to have faith. It’s hard to accept that “I am at the mercy of all that” Jim Rohn really makes this point well in a couple of his lectures. Finally, when I heard a priest asked about the fate of those not baptized in the Orthodox Church he said basically, “we know this way that works. But what can we say about other people and what is in their heart, or about how the Holy Spirit is working. We don’t know. What could we say. We just do what we know to do.”

1:08:59 that's called TLC mode of engagement

Been looking forward to this one, your teasers have actually teased me.

Anglican bishop with tattoos. This should be interesting

We discussed karma the other day. This weekend was my fourth class on the Gita, given by one of the foremost scholars in this field. This weekend was chapter 3: Karma. Kismet. It resonates with so much, not only Christianity. Swammi VivekAnanda or YogaAnanda speaking about Krishna Consciousness, as identical with Christ Consciousness. Kenosis. Kutastha Chaitanya. The message was one of self transmutation, metempsychosis, Karma is action, Vita Activa blended with the vita contemplativa of Arendt/Nietzsche/Jung. St John of the Cross. That these things are not understood until acted upon: embodied in practise. John 13, Mat 22, 1Cronth13:13. The disconnect is the 'I and other'. Not the true way to see life (with a religious view of life: Jung) is to see the other as a 'thou' (Buber's I and Thou). The Isha Upanishad line 6 : To see your soul in the other, and see the other in your own soul. To see the divinity, the providence in all: Emerson or Whitman or TS Eliot. I had to go away to come home again, for the first time. Practice, action, actors/agency in the mundi. Modern man stands at the edge of a precipice: to be ahistorical, to blaze a path towards good. To not tread a path well worn and no longer relevant to our age? We are between two types: To fall back into the thin veil of medieval theology and the empty rationalism of the 19th century idealism... We are the middle men, those who having outgrown the stultified church, but have not been brought to deny that a religious attitude to life is as essential a belief as the belief in science. *Jung from Modern Man In Search of a Soul. ... Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow For Thine is the Kingdom Between the conception And the creation Between the emotion And the response Falls the Shadow Life is very long Between the desire And the spasm Between the potency And the existence Between the essence And the descent Falls the Shadow For Thine is the Kingdom For Thine is Life is For Thine is the This is the way the world ends This is the way the world ends This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper. TS Eliot Hollow Men

Great discussion, Paul.

1:27:30 let’s use my language! 😁 Eucharistic/personal knowing. The unity-integration of all the kinds of knowing.

I am very sad to hear that Dr. Green left the Church of God. Still May God Bless him.

They make Anglicans in charismatic? What a hook Pastor Paul!

Did anyone notice the interesting thing about his childhood church's worship schedule? Morning and evening worship on Sunday is the universal witness of the church. In the pre Trent church, Wednesday is the only day of the week other than Sunday for which there is an appointed set of mass readings for every week of the year. Friday is the only day other than Sunday and Wednesday for which there is an appointed set of mass readings for all weeks other than ordinary time. Saturday night is the first Vespers of Sunday.

Right after the hour mark when simplification is brought up I had all sorts of questions. Probably because I think everything we say is a simplification. Do Bible verses do that , examples like God is love or God is the word from John? Is a seed a simplification of a tree? It’s probably a me issue but that’s what came up. Enjoyed the conversation a lot especially the last ten minutes.

47:03 about neglecting to explicitly teach “the code” and its consequences. This is so insightful. Reinforces my buy-in to classical education.

Glad I finally listened to this

If you’re reading this Chris, I’m 15 minutes in and wondering if you’ve ever read “the Big Rock Candy Mountain” by Wallace Stegner? If you haven’t I think you might find it good possibly even relatable

"not being proficient with mules, that didn't go so well." Soo much wisdom in that line.

1:28:03 this is how Jordan Hall became a Christian in a small town

What is a charismatic Anglican? I can't think of two traditions more on opposite ends of the spectrum. Fascinating because it combines two major influences from my church background. I grew up in charismatic churches but have been attending Episcopal churches since getting married 15 years ago because my wife and I love the liturgical construct.

I wonder at what seems to be many people's greater concern over the timing of the Lord's return to conclude the affairs of earthly society than over the more immediate prospect of their going to meet him at death. There seems to be such a focus on the affairs of this world to the neglect of focus on the things above, on the life of the spirits after death.

25 minutes in and there’s big differences, but I really relate with this guy. Excited for the rest.

I thoroughly enjoyed this

1:10:00 - spot on.

He’s got some nice lighting and background

1:14:25 Confessional larpers. Or liars (at worst)?

What a fascinating life story

I would’ve liked him to dwell a bit more on his formative years. Seems like he flunked out of an obscure Bible college and was suddenly doing multiple master’s degrees and being recruited by ORU.

22:55 oh he went there. Is this why so many protestants don’t take communion?

1:15:56 “who can risk it?” Why is it a risk?!

I wonder if Dr. Green and Brett Salkeld would have a good conversation.

1:35:47 maybe this is why randos are so valuable.

1:15:22 - Sparrows tho.

Dem's good folk ... the hillbilly family in town were the most hands on helpful.

(10:30) I would definitely be one of those who splits his free time between the church and the bar.

So, the Pentecostalism he knew as a child was false but the Pentecostalism, he believes now is ABSOLUTELY TRUE???? Where is "ONE FAITH, ONE LORD, ONE BAPTISM"?

'Which kind of minister can stand to risk their future?' The celibate kind that's who. If you have no wife or kids or people who depend on your wallet you can say and do whatever the heck you want :)

The "Tri Solarians" are creatures like Tardigrade creatures on Earth.