my brain hurts this am so i'll just wait for part 2. ivan will figure it out.

@ 12:45 on video the rattle at the start up is your main problem. I have same issue. Same noises. Same code(s). Same diagnosis. It's the timing chain tensioner inside the timing housing. Which can resemble stretched chain and or stretch the timing chain. It can also cause more damage which could cost a new motor. The loss of acceleration, o2 sensors not functioning properly, catalytic converter not working properly on readings, fuel evap not functioning either. Smell of gasoline all the time but no leaks. But the rattling noise happening at any time of start up and then thinning out is tensioner. This happens due to previous or current neglect to oil changes. Metal shavings from wear get caught up in the timing chain when it goes through the oil lubricant thus depositing the particles in the other moving parts aka chain tensioner, pulleys, gears, bearings, and shafts. That's when shit hits the fan.

My guess is the timing chain/actuator not set correctly when replaced and ran well for 15K miles but ECM reached the threshold for further control/compensation for the timing offset. Re-set timing chain/actuator? 🤷‍♂️

I cannot fix the rattle from a scan tool. Time to take it apart! Thanks for the video Ivan.

You're gonna have to remove the timing cover.....

You have the old phasers sitting there. Count the number of teeth on them ans divide by 720* and you can assign how many degrees of camshaft rotation per tooth to rule out or confirm a jumped chain.

Time to count the teeth on the phasers and see if the timing can be off one tooth.

I agree with inspection of timing chain. But I would look at chain tension on bank 2. Possible bad tensioner causing problems and causing noisey operation.

Ivan-You should get together with Big Clive-You both make my head spin-I have no idea what you are talking about but it is remarkably interesting.

Yes! Another Ivan video! I was going into withdrawal! Can't wait for part II.

You've proven there is a timing issue. But you've also proven that it can go away for periods of time. So what happened when you drove it and it drove perfect? Cars don't fix themselves. At this point I would start from scratch. Make sure that electronically everything is working. Making sure the control solenoids work. Make sure the PCM can control the solenoids. And verify good oil pressure. If everything electronically is working then it's time to get approval from customer to pull it all back apart. And you might not see the problem when you pull it back apart if somehow the bank 2 phaser is moving. It might settle in a neutral position and be in time. I've done many GM V6 chains. They're timed a little different than most V6's. And once you set the timing you can't rotate the crank and re-verify timing. You have to use colored links on the chain. So once you turn the crank the colored links aren't going to align again. Also I've had a few of these where I do the chains, tensioners, guides, phasers and control solenoids as preventative maintenance. And a week later or an hour later that exact DTC comes up. And at least 3 times that I can remember it was a defective cam phaser. You can scope it and see it. And if you find a bad phaser often once you remove it you can compare it to a known good and see that the trigger wheel for the cam sensor has shifted.

The rattle on start up is giving you all the info you need. Something is coming apart, 'newer' or not. I think the phaser on that cam is the issue, replaced or not..

That startup rattle is concerning, pointing to low oil pressure. However, before condemning the oil pump or engine, check the oil filter. I've mentioned it before, but GM changed designs on the ACDelco oil filters to the Champ E-core, which are terribly cheap, low-quality parts. They also seem to restrict oil flow because the design is not the same as the original filters. Once I detected that issue on my vehicles, I stopped using ACDelco filters and switched to Hastings instead. Wix and Purolator are also good filters.

It sounds exactly like there was a way procedural errors during the timing chain installation. I’ve seen when people replace the oil control solenoids and phasers and timing chain that they don’t follow the steps where it tells you to rotate the engine a few times to get some people oil Flow and then re check timing so you can see if there was some play in the phasers or something that would allow timing to slip very slightly during initial startup Then once it has full oil pressure and is commanded on its already a few degrees off. But the fact that it has start up rattle still kind of leads me more towards an oil bleed back or bleed off issue somewhere in the timing system, it is dohc so you could even have excessive clearance allowing for the excessive bleed off of it could be the oil was real dirty when the timing set was originally installed and whatever wAs left in the oil galleys got pumped into the oil control solenoid or phaser when it was first started which is causing the mechanism to stick. Defective timing set. Idk got some reason timing chain stretch doesn’t seem entirely likely due to the fact that the code was set shortly after the timing set was replaced unless it was a bad chain from the beginning or it was stretched the wrong way during install.

Excellent as alway Ivan ... Nice shout out to Bernie! Nice to know you are as envious of his 8 channel scope as I am of your 4!

What would I do? 🤔 In your position I'd think I'd have enough to confirm 1 one the chains was not installed properly. Idk? In the very beginning, I theorized a lack of crank relearning would be the issue. That's definitely not the case. The scope correlation says it all. I love those back probes, but I found that some of the heat shrink on the pin needs to be stripped back. I'd say at least half to 3/4 of it.... then they work soooo much better. I think they my faves, when it comes to backprobing. Now I'll wait patiently for part 2. 😶😬😜

I loved the Bernies scope reference!! ;))

I can’t wait to own a picoscope! One day!!! Look hard to learn lol but I like learning. Nice waveform tho 👍🏼 .

Okay, I'm a day late to this party, but here's my probably-wrong guess. Two parts. First, when he did the timing chain job, he may have been just a *fraction* out of time on the #2 cam, but the tightness of the new chain created enough tension to mask it. As the chains aged, stretched ever so little, the error became exposed. Second part: Recent oil change may suggest the *prior* oil change was vastly overdue and possibly contributing to the issue.

Ivan chasing up another automotive “who, errrrr, what done it” mystery. I’m thinking the chain jumped a tooth, and perhaps the tensioner wasn’t installed properly, or the chain guide on the bank 2 side has allowed for slack in the chain maybe. Also oil pressure fluctuation to the actuator could be in play. In for the part 2! Can’t wait to learn.

Nice challenge Ivan. Let's see what happens in P2!

@Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics Ivan, that is quite an advanced analysis but seems like a stretch to me! Unchained logic got me quite phased! Troubleshooting to another degree. Sorry for the bad puns Ivan. You are the best. You should have so many more followers! Your videos are like a class in automotive theory. Thank you my friend! I have learned so much from you!

Given the fact that it comes and goes I'd say a faulty phaser. In my opinion if the cam was out a tooth it would have done this right away and be more consistent. I think it's phaser time. Love that pico. It's on my wish list...

I definitely call the customer and tell the customer that it is possible that the intake side of the timing chain wasn't actually replaced. Or wasnt times properly. It needs taken apart to see

Ivan another good video. Looking forward to part 2. Will look into downloading the pico files at least the ones for Honda’s if they have any. Thanks again for sharing stay well and safe. Artie👍

It’s the suspense for me!😁 Cant wait to see what happens next! 😎

Change the chain and the " sprockets ", most are changing only the chain. The sprockets are wearing out causing loose chain and timing issues.

I have a hard time believing that the original work would cause the P0018. Six or so months later. Possibly defective parts, lack of oil pressure/ volume to the chain tensioner . I would imagine if the job was done incorrectly that code would have come back almost immediately or after a few Drive cycles. "Chain stretch" or 'Chain Wear" and sprocket wear can be caused due to low oil pressure over time. Ive seen this many times at the shop where another shop has changed the chain and tensioner without measuring or changing the phasers gears. Or tensioner fails causing a jump in timing. Great Vid Ivan !!!!!!

I would check the timing he may be a Tooth out or the phaser has issues? When it was done with new phasers it might have been able to cope with only occasional issues but as the oil got older it caused the problem to arise more often. ( I know it says the oil has been changed recently) which maybe why it’s not setting the code consistently... looking forward to the answer

We did a full timing job on 4 cylinder ecotech and didn't have the exhaust phaser lined up. Got a P0017. Corrected that and it's fine. I'd check the phaser either the key is not in the hole or the torque to yield bolt is loose is my guess. Cloyes kit and so far so good very smooth and quiet. But probably less than 1K miles so time will tell.

Was the cam phaser (sprocket) misaligned? Or wrong part? The dieseling sound when starting could be oil starvation to oil solenoids, bad solenoids, or that engine needs DEXOS synthetic oil; Mobil 1 Full Synthetic solved that noise for us on a different Ecotec engine.

🤔wonder if he’s off 1 tooth 🦷 on the Timing Chain.

Failed guide or stripped out tensioner??? Great video as always!! I’ll be waiting for part 2!

time to open the front engine ,is a oem chain or a cheap one? ,how about the guides ,and yes everytime you do timing chain you must change all the components ,the water pump is warranty 245k 10 years also the thermostat.

Because comparing two different vehicles is pointless, it will lead to an erroneous result. Even if a timing chain stretches, there are mechanical devices to place tension on the chain to keep it tight. Therefore, the chain itself will remain on the same tooth of the camshaft gear. All you would have needed to do was compare it when both of the camshafts are at their top dead Centerpoint, however, since your scanner sat on zeros the entire time that should've been the first issue

Tensioner let the chain slip a tooth maybe? Based on the startup rattle?

Seconds into the video my thought was garbage aftermarket phasers,,,, I'm sticking with that....

Saturday morning coffee and PHAD video. Now Flash back to that damn Astra! Thanks Ivan. LOL! Pull the timing cover p.i.a. bring to TDC. and visual inspection that every thing is set right. My bet bad cam phaser.

Ivan. If you were working for SpaceX starship 9 and 10 would still be alive... BOOM!

From what I gather the car runs right sometimes... If the chain jumped a tooth, this issue shouldn't be intermittent. I mean it shouldn't work sometimes.... I mean maybe I misunderstood the problem... if it's constant since the timing chain was done, it was done wrong... If the issue is intermittent, you could be looking at engine oil pressure issues, where you don't have the pressure to advance the phaser or load the tensioner. Low oil pressure would also cause the rattle at start up. I'd likely want to check the oil pressure just to rule that out. Next, as 3 carms are fine and only one is slogging behind... I'd also suspect the phaser that's running behind. Lastly if the problem has been constant since the timing job was done... it was done wrong or the new parts were bad.

Check bank2 inlet cam timing and its phaser fitting.

Were the tensioners and guides replaced? I've done this job on 2 engines and if you don't replace everything, you're asking for trouble down the line.

*Nearing 100000! Congratulations!*

OK, just from you saying it's a 2009 3.6 L GM V6. I say Time for a timing set. And PCV system

My guess is phaser not locking. Do an in cylinder pressure test. Rattle on start make me think this is the direction.

Following you so far...

Is it normal for that engine to be so noisy? Sounds like the “Thresher” sinking? Thanks....Jim PS.....timing chain not installed properly or some parts stretched or broke....already?

Guessing on this Chevvvvvrooolet,..... Cam Phaser whacky; also causing that startup momentary rattle. Ebay phasers known for the startup rattle.

Good morning Ivan!!!👍🔧👏

I always hated that code. I remember that there was a head change identified by the cam caps. I had one that had the new style head that didn't need the fiber washers but someone put them on and it plugged the oil passage when it disintegrated. The rest of them were sludge monsters, do to the EGR effect used with the cam phasing. Sounds like a phaser not locking up, tear down time. Exploratory surgery.

Again a Cliffhanger, Swap the solenoids. if there is no shange then I will redo the timing job, but first compare the old fasers with the new ones. Has the fasers be adjusted on the camshafts.?

Chain tensioner for b1 collapsed.

there’s 2 different part #’s for the phasers intake & exhaust So I think he or they put a exhaust phaser on the intake side I’ve seen it done before GM TECH OUT!!..

Off one tooth on chain 40 teeth on that phaser sprocket. 360/40 = 9° assuming it was barely within spec with a brand new chain and has just barely stretched to start flagging that code. When in there reseting the timing might be worth throwing a tentioner on that bank due to the rattle on startup.

I bet it was just within the threshold with new chains and now that they are broke in it’s that 1 extra degree past. Was off from day one is my guess is there about 40 teeth on them phasers?

Fire the parts cannon immediately

Push it off a cliff is what I'd do next. If there are no cliffs nearby, I'd pull the timing cover and check all the timing marks while looking for broken plastic.

It's called changing your oil. These owners don't do maintenance, and then wonder why they have issues. There is no design issue with the cam drive.

sewing machine needles make great back probing pins too.

I agree with 1 teeth off error on the respective phaser cam.

I have the exact same problem but code came up immediately after replacing chains and the works in the kit.. It stays off if you clear codes until the next start but shows pending even when light is off...??

The older ThinkPads are reliable, and rebuildable.

looks like someone is pulling a timing cover again 😒

New parts can have faults. And i would still run away, No suprise there :-D

crank relearm procedure needed to be done after timing chain replacement

I think it's 1 tooth off on the cam shaft I'm pretty sure those came shafts have 40 teeth 360 degrees of rotation ÷ 9 is 40 that's my guess. I would check the timing marks next

Hey ivan, that so weird!! I figure it's the chain being so off by that much. What i would do is reset the timing chain and make sure it's set right.

You know you own a less desirable vehicle when you usually drive around carrying a lot of spare parts.

It's a correlation issue time to get it apart and check mechanical timing

You must have a fancy scanner to delete codes with the engine off

I think that there are around 40 teeth on the timing cam sprocket, so if 360/40 equals 9, then the math indicates that the chain for the intake slipped one tooth. However, given the history of Ivan's teasers, this is too easy and he will find something else that we could never have imagined and we'll all feel like fools.🤔

This is a mechanical issue. Customer not going to want to hear it but it's got to come apart.

You troubleshoot like an engineer would, Ivan. Nice case study.

After all these scope measurements, you are still not 100% sure if it's the phaser, the chain or something in the oil pressure control (solenoid, oil pressure). Basically all you have done is confirmed that the ECU software is working correctly. On many cars, it takes a couple of minutes to take the valve cover off. You can then check if the phaser is in the zero-position and next put the timing tool on the crankshaft and camshafts. Then you know 100% sure that the chain timing is correct or not and it should not take more than 15 minutes either. So my next step would be to take off the valve cover, put the phasers in their zero-position and put the timing tool on the engine.

Nice one Ivan 👍👍👍👍

Engine sounds rough. Clunking like a diesel.

I would buy a Toyota. My niece has a brand new Corolla based on my recommendation. She sent me a chart for overall average cost over 10 years. Toyota was at the bottom at $5500 and BMW at the top at about $18 000. Chevrolet is at 16 and almost $9000. My humble opinion...if you want cash to stay in your wallet...drive a Toyota or Lexus. Scion was there but no longer exist.

Good morning ivan

Yes check installation? something is not good.

Looks like the old Suzuki is doing well... working on buying a tracker with a possible failed timing chain.

We have a new engine in ours and it has the same rattle at startup for about 3 seconds and goes away. Tried different dexos oils and filters. Only does it on cold startup. No codes. Warranty will only pay for half of the repairs. We still don’t know what’s wrong though. Did it since first startup.

Captain Kirk sez: We can get Scotty to fix those Phaser banks AND repair yer warp drive.😎👍

The difference in timing maybe a bad hydraulic tensioner on the secondary chain on that bank.

Come on Ivan, you need to get the Escope so we can see some videos of you using it. I like watching Bernie Thompson use his but you put out more videos.

I would check timming marks, see if they are correct

Could you have a worn cam lobe for that valve?

Would Oil viscosity have any issue

Did he replace the chain guides & hydraulic tensioners? The rattle during first start up is due to bad tensioners.

It sure sounds like something is rattling or has an exhaust leak. It is a Chevy so it does need to be worked on by a real mechanic not an owner mechanic. I might take it to a bad part of town and leave the keys in it.

That’s strange what what is the mileage on the car

Timing chain tensioner?

That sounds like low oil pressure no?

If there are 4 chains then one is off by one tooth. If only one chain then the phaser was put on wrong.

You do know that Pico makes an 8 channel scope as well

Set phasers to stun!!!

Was it changed on a Monday?

Do an LS swap, of course!

chain tensioner?

Time for tear down!

Great video Ivan. Could the timing be off because you can hear a sound on start up.