Nienna is considered one of the great ones because she is "top tear".

This is why I love your channel! Pity is a very critical theme to Tolkien and something our western culture sadly lacks. One exception to your analysis, I do think Mr. T acutely pitied the fool, just like Gandalf.

Interesting thing is that Nienna is also sister to Melkor & Manwë. GirlNextGondor went deep into her character beyond the typical things said about her by most other channels in a recent video she did about her. Even tied it to the third version of Arda which she also laid out in a very deep and succinct way!

I find it fascinating that Nienna had nothing to do with the creation of Illuin and Ormal, yet she was essential in the creation of Telperion and Laurelin as well as Anar and Isil.

As always, fantastic video. Agree with all you compared and contrasted, and in many ways making me catch more from Inside Out and Tolkien's lore.

Would it be fair to extend the idea of “sadness leading to wisdom” to that of “insecurity leading to courage or wisdom?” I’m thinking of Olorin being afraid of going to Arda because he was scared of having to deal with Sauron, when in fact Manwe told him that that is EXACTLY why he chose Olorin.

Either I’m going mad or I’m finding an uncanny number of connections in Tolkien that lead to plants or wildlife that have folkloric or cultural significance. In this case, as another commenter said, Nienna seems to be a reference to the Virgin Mary. I’m still playing with Welsh language and found that “Mary’s Tears” - “dagrau Mair”, is the name for the plant Cowslip. Reading about Cowslip then yields a few interesting things- It’s been called St Peter’s Keys or Keys of Heaven, as the flower heads are shaped like a bunch of keys, and that it grew where St Peter dropped the Key of Earth. Also, cowslip flowers were used medicinally for coughs. More relevant in some ways, is its use as a sleeping aid, as it was supposed to have sedative qualities. I don’t know which way around it is: if Tolkien is using plants as imagery for the lore , or if the lore is trying to describe aspects of Nature, but I’ve come across this type of thing quite a lot recently. *I’ll add that there is a certain type of tree prevalent in LotR that has a weeping variety.

From an atheistic standpoint, almost everything we experience comes from an evolutionary prerogative to continue our DNA. We feel sorrow when our loved ones die because that gives us a drive to protect them. Our ancestors who didn't feel sorrow didn't protect their family, and thus their genetic lineage died out fairly quickly back when humanoids had predators. We experience joy because of chemicals in our brain that trigger in response to good survival scenarios - exercising, eating tasty food, being around people you get along with (a tribe to protect you from lions). The lack of these chemicals is precisely what, medically, depression physically is. Our ancestors who didn't eat, who didn't exercise, who didn't create a tribe, died sooner, left less children behind, and thus those poor survival strategies died out. Yes that's a mechanical and somewhat monochrome way to look at human emotion. If someone wants to assign more spiritual or moral weight to those mechanics, that's perfectly fine - because, the desire or need to assign that spiritual or moral weight is, itself, spawned from some kind of positive survival tactic. There are mutations and exceptions that happen - nature is messy, often imperfect. And on some level, a cosmic ray needs to knock a couple DNA molecules wayward once in a while or life in general may become stagnant. But in general, you are comprised of mostly successful survival traditions that go back millions of years. From an atheist perspective, the universe doesn't really trend towards rightness or wrongness, how we feel about a situation - be it pity or sorrow or something else - has no real bearing on the rightness or wrongness of anything. We don't necessarily feel sorrow because something is "wrong", we feel it because something disadvantageous to our survival has occurred. And from a logical perspective, even if the universe was wrong, that doesn't guarantee a benevolent deity who can, or even would want to, fix it and make it "right". The universe could simply continue increasing in "wrongness" for eternity as a kind of entropy. Very fascinating topic and discussion and I look forward to the next video. Namárië ~

I consider Tolkien's revisions over his lifetime a result of increasing refinement of perspective by having lived a long life. Nienna better fit as the sister of the Irmo and Namo and among the most powerful. As a youth being heroic and a warrior seems the most important to focus on, but being on top of the hill and able to see the whole panorama, fighting and war are not the most important thing only a component. A full life needs all aspects as in "Inside Out." Apart from my response, I consider this among the top 10 videos you've made that I have heard.

Thou art wise, O melon Geek. So I must surmise that you also know pity. You remind me of a verse from Scripture that Tolkien would surely have known: "I am the mother of fair love and of fear, of knowledge and of holy hope." This passage refers to wisdom, but in some contexts, or perhaps on a deeper level, also refers to the Seat of Wisdom, which is a title of the Blessed Virgin. So on one level Tolkien is styling Nienna after Wisdom as she is shown to have existed "from the foundations of the world" with God. Of course Olorin learns pity and wisdom from Wisdom herself. Tolkien also knew that greatest wisdom that the joy of Christmas turns into the sorrow of Calvary, because the Virgin Mother knew why her Son was come into the world. It was a joy, but it was also sorrow, and so she was wise beyond our understanding. And she pitied humanity and gave up her Son for us. This sorrow turns into the unending joy of Wisdom Himself back from the dead. Tolkien, being the deep thinker and writer he was, was able to weave all these truths into the fabric of his subcreation without being preachy or stepping outside of his characters' understanding. So Tolkien shows us his own wisdom. You follow this master well, my dear Geek. May you always grow in this wisdom. Namarie.

Pity is not always a good thing. Thanks to Nienna's pity for Melkor, he got the parole he never should have been given.

Tolkien seems to have perceived “pity” as a remarkable demonstration of empathy-which is true-and not of contempt or sense of superiority of a person towards another. He also seems to have seen sorrow as an opportunity for emotional growth, so that a person could learn from difficult moments and endure the unavoidable obstacles that life presents. Tolkien was a good man. I’m glad he had the chance to publish a series of novels that are so enticing. It’s a pity that nowadays people seem to prefer “grey” values, and TV series, movies and books about characters that are immoral, cruel, vindictive and deeply flawed, and in which being good and decent is punished by fate (looking at you, G.R.R. Martin).

Pity and confort from sorrow seem like things that weren't really needed in Aman except in the case of Míriel, the dead Trees, all of what Melkor and Ungoliant did, and the Kinslaying. Nienna's main job seemed to be showing pity to those in Mandos who needed it and giving them comfort in their sorrow. If Nienna is the Mother of all pity and comfort from sorrow then her presence can be felt in Arda throughout the entire Legendarium. Or maybe there are many Maiar in their ëalar form helping Eru's Children to feel pity and help others recover from sorrow.

Animals from fish and up quite obviously have emotions. The science on it is pretty clear. There are even indications about bugs and mollusks honestly.

Nienna even though she is not as powerful as the other Valar. If I'm not mistaken, Olorin was once her apprentice. That's how Gandalf learns such compassion & his greatest asset & why Illuvatar allows him to be the keeper of the secret fire & trustworthiness. It's not sorrow but pity. There are also the Ents that fought Saurman of many colors.

new TL video dropped. Day made!

I wonder if Nienna came into existence as we know her during the Ainulindalë when Melkor's discord entered into creation, marring Arda and resulting in Morgoth's Ring.🤔

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is he kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the gentle, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger & thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you & persecute you & falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice & be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in this same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

She has halls but lives alone?

Forgot also, " it was pity that stayed Bilbos hand.

She trained Gandalf, don't need to do anything more when he is doing the heavy lifting for you.