I’m a Catholic catechumen and I’m fourteen, my parents are atheist and the first thing I looked into was Protestantism well soon I found out that wouldn’t work. Than Eastern Orthodoxy honestly I think I would be orthodox if my mom didn’t stop taking me to liturgy’s. Than last but not least Catholicism I loved that we have Apostolic Succession (which orthodox have too). Now at fourteen (I started my conversion at 12) I will be catholic on the Easter Vigil!

I’m so glad Trent is aware of the KZfaq apologetics scene, is willing to debate and doesn’t live in the bubble of Catholic Answers

A Protestant pastor hated the Catholic Church so much he wrote a sermon, “36 reasons why the Catholic Church is Wrong.” Ten years later he converted to Catholic. When he told his 30y old son he was converting to Catholic, his son was so shocked he decided to read some catholic books to find out what made his dad take such a 180 turn. The son ended up becoming a Catholic Priest.

I know everybody loves to say Jay is too much of a meanie to debate. But as a catholic myself I would LOVE to see Trent debate Jay. I’ve always wanted to see that.

24:42 The Church actually has an office to answer questions regarding papal interpretation. So if a layperson is unsure how to interpret or understand something, he can ask his priest, who then can ask his bishop (if needed), who then can ask this office (if needed), which then can ask the pope (if needed). Dyer approaches the question of interpretation like a protestant, ignoring the mechanisms for authoritative interpretation and dialogue that are already in place.

Been waiting for this one for a while.

I joined the RCC 3 years ago. It really opened my eyes up to all that Christianity has to offer. The history of the church and the writings and works of the saints. I feel that I could start studying every day for the rest of my life and just scratch the surface. Jay seems to really study this and Trent does as well obviously . For a lay person, the church being the apostolic church is enough for me. If my family was ethnically orthodox at some point, maybe I would feel differently. I love the orthodox church, but I feel at home in the RCC. I listen to these videos, waiting to hear a reason to leave the church and I have yet to. Most of the arguments against the church are based on bad behavior by members of the church. That may be a good enough reason for Jay, but I feel like it is a better reason to stay and keep fighting for orthodoxy and reverence in the RCC. The separation of us on the earth saddens me, but I must focus on my salvation and my family's. I think we'll all be united soon enough.

I am a protestant that has been reading the Church Fathers and trying to understand Orthodoxy for the last year or so. I hadn't really given Catholicism a second look because of all the faults I perceived it had. Over the last week I have listened to more than a half dozen of Trent's rebuttals and have found him easy to understand and often very persuasive. I tried to listen to Dyer in the past but he comes across as so arrogant sometimes I can't stomach him. I still don't know if I'll eventually become Orthodox, Catholic or stay Protestant but I appreciate Trent's hard work and loving attitute in his videos (enough that I purchased the Gold Logos (verbum) Bible software package last night lol ). Keep up the good work :)

On the issue of artificial birth control: Before (1960) ALL Christian denominations and the Catholic church deplore artificial contraception. Now, it is ONLY the Catholic Church that condemns unnatural birth control

“Byzantine Catholics reject purgatory” bro what 😂😂😂😂

Loved watching this from New Zealand 🇳🇿 You are Awesome Trent. God bless you and keep it up! 🙏😊👍

Thanks, Trent, for these breakdowns! I’m a convert from Protestantism, and spent time treading water in the Bosporus before swimming the Tiber. Dyer’s videos/blogposts on Protestantism lead me toward the EOC, and as Proverbs says, “He who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.” While his videos on the Papacy and Divine Simplicity seemed convincing at first, it was ironically digging deeper into Eastern Orthodoxy that I began, especially with Fr. John Meyendorff, that I began to realize the diversity of views with the EOC on these questions. While at the time I didn’t have detailed breakdowns of Dyer, I did find quite a view resources on not only the authentic Catholic doctrines of the Papacy, Purgatory, and Divine Simplicity, but I also started corresponding with a former-ROCOR hieromonk and a former-Antiochian priest, both of whom hadn’t only studied at Orthodox seminaries, but also spent time on Mt. Athos. Both men helped me understand the charism of the Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome, as well as the dilemmas and controversies in contemporary Orthodoxy that are just as troubling, if not more, than the turmoil in the RCC. Eventually, it was the Holy Spirit who led me into the Catholic Church, and a pursuit of deeper communion with Our Blessed Savior. I found deep resonance with the Western Catholic spirituality, hymnody, and liturgy, and I was deeply attracted by the missionary spirit of the Catholic Church in the West.

Dyer sounds like a protestant trying to sound eastern

I used to be a paid subscriber to Dyer 4-5 years ago. I stopped listening when he became unsufferable regarding Catholics. I still sometimes listen to their movie reviews. I know there are hours of content of Jay going on about how bad Catholicism is and I have heard many of them. I was never convinced because I am Catholic from birth, it is intrinsically linked to my heritage/identity and what I hear them describing in Orthodoxie is almost exactly like a trad Catholic mass and culture. But whatever, I know they'll say somthing about essence-energy distinction and what not, talk about how priests are pedos, et al., as if Orthodoxie didn't have many of the same modernist problems. Aside from theological details, what I notice is that Catholics in my circles (trad and Novus Ordo, I am in both worlds, as I was raised in the Novus Ordo, but I am more trad in my own life for the past several years) generally have a sympathetic view of Orthodoxe people and bear no ill will toward them, but all the Orthodoxe folks on the internet are so hateful towards Catholics (and are generally just dismissive of Protestants in a kinder way). The couple of Orthodoxe people I know in real life are all ethnics of the Coptic, Russian or Greek churches (I know one French Canadian who attends Orthodoxe mass and doesn't hate on Catholics). I've also noticed that a lot of these Orthodoxe converts on the internet are new to the faith and from Protestant backgrounds (so anti-Catholic from the get-go), so time will tell regarding their seriousness. I live in Québec and I don't think catholicism can be separated from our nationalism and history (I also agree theologically with it and don't really buy the arguments that Dyer makes about how Catholicism is responsible for the decline of the West). It's a big topic and I'm not going to get into it on a youtube comment, but I will say that rootless Americans tend to more easily attach themselves to stuff that hasn't much to do with who they are/were. I know there are French Canadians like Jon Pageau who are Orthodoxe and whose family left the Catholic church after Vatican II (to be Protestant, of course), but at least Jon doesn't hate on Catholics (his French language channel is co-hosted with a Catholic, but rootless anglophones wouldn't know this, as unilingualism limits them somewhat). I find Jay unlistenable now (I used to be a big fan). I think Jamie is lovely and I still like listening to her. Basically, what I want to say to Orthodoxe people in the internet is this: have some charity when you are hating on the Catholics and dismiss us as in some kind of devil church. Take a look at yourselves and how you're acting.

Brace for impact

Big respect for the video Trent.

As a Catholic if you attend Mass every week and attend on all the holy days of obligation during the year receive the sacrament of reconciliation and penance on a regular basis take care of the needy and less fortunate whenever possible and very important try your best to commit to saying the rosary on a regular basis and also ignore the politics of religion and ignore the inevitable scandal that is brought to the church buy fallible humans if you don't like what an individual priest or Bishop is preaching or sermonizing ignore it attended different Mass or church if necessary if you do these simple things I promise you your faith will never waver we need to take care of our own salvation first

wow look at trent taking on the big guns of Orthodox Church, lets gooo Trent

Regarding around the 45th minute, would ecumenical stations of the cross be permitted or no? I participated in them once, and sort of shook off any discomfort I had with it as scrupulosity (which I was dealing with big time at the time) because I was able to talk about Mary being the Mother of God and being able to intercede on our behalf. Likewise, my friends like to attend Russian orthodox vespers in my area, is that allowed as an active act of prayer (passive in that regard seems fine at first glance)?

This is gonna be a spicy one!

Soon this comment section will look like a battlefield, just wait for the Jay Dyer fans

Thank you for doing this, Trent!

51:22 is not the second highlighted red portion included within the bounds of "If anyone says that...," and not outside those quotations? Hopefully that makes sense

Trent, you missed adding the link to the article explaining different levels of church teaching in the description.

I’m so happy to see Trent rebuking jay. Epic cross over.

Oh my gosh, Dyer's arguments are sooooo STOOOOOPID. "Sola Papa"? "I follow Augustine, I follow Aquinas"? No Catholic even thinks like that, let alone talks like it.

after being a protestant for 22 years, and about to convert to Catholicism ... i can honestly step back and say the protestant realm is very anti-authority, like teenagers. It seems to be a realm of rebellion rather than a submission to Christ and follow the biblical layout of authority in the church. i was the same way, i didn't want some body of authority to have say over my own biblical understanding. it's pride, plain and simple.

Very enjoyable! I didn't expect I'd watch the whole thing.

You rock, Trent!

I am ex-Eastern Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox church I went to didn't even evangelize. They just relied on the annual Greek Food Festival to draw people in. There was basically no evangelical zeal among them. Nice people, but there was also a noticeable Greek clique. Like, if you weren't Greek you weren't part of the club. Their bishops tried to fix the jurisdictional mess but since no one is in charge it ultimately can never be solved. I left around the time of the failed Council of Crete. Their autonomous churches as a whole simply can not function together with the loss of their Pope and reduced power role of the Ecumenical Patriarch. And it's got worse even since they effectively divided into two sects regarding the whole Kiev thing. Thank God I left for the Catholic Church in time before they turned into 2 denominations; I think I would have been really heartbroken.

Not sure what edition of early christian doctrines by kelly you have, but page 410 does not have the quote you used at 6:43.

Great video. Can't wait for your debate with him!!!

Ironic how in point 9 Jay criticises "clown masses" whatever they are and alledges all sorts of wayward liturgies and innovation while at the same time he will critique motu propter for trying to preserve mass in Latin language and associated liturgy and ask for any innovation to be moderated through bishops. It is also ironic to say that the pope can and should excommunicate innovators ( the seeming final orthodox solution to everything) but on the other hand criticise the pope for regulating the Eastern rite in order to preserve it from innovation.

Thank you for this one! I remember a few months ago looking for a Catholic critique of EO, and the only thing I found was Vaticancatholic's videos. Good to see an orthodox Catholic critique.

Does Trent hold to what Martin Luther taught in regards to the papacy and the little horn in Daniel chapter 7?

That Taylor Marshall reference was masterful

EXCELLENT VIDEO

Jay Dyer is one of the great Catholic Apologists. Most people are so turned off by his childish attitude they come over to the One True Faith. Thanks, Jay!

Hey Trent! I am a fan of your work and just wanted to say that Jay goes into more detail on these simple objections which demonstrate his knowledge on these matters. Would love to see a debate or at least one with Ubi Petrus who would be a great interlocutor on the papacy.

@The Counsel of Trent how did you learn everything you know :)

I'm lds and have been investigating the Catholic church because my family had me baptized in the Catholic church. So I'm investigating my roots because everyone in my family is Catholic.

I see what he is doing…he is playing to many of the frustrations that trads have. He wants to pick us off by demonstrating that the Church has either defected or never was the true Church. And Trent is being very sly in quoting Taylor Marshall on Islam.

Please definitely do an episode on religious liberty. Is a very hot button issue amongst many of us I think from Libs, to Cons, to Trads.

""Catholic Apologetics is just defending the Pope" Uh yeah, that's kind of the point of an apologist. We wouldn't need to play defense if they weren't always objecting. If the speaker is on the offense against dissenting religions, they are no longer acting as an apologist.

I think the best analogy for understanding Jay Dyer is that he's a PC with several terabytes worth of storage drives, paired with a shitty CPU. Tons of data; but an inability to process it well.

It sounds like dyer googled catholicism bad, then copy and pasted other people's rejections in order to appeal to his ex protestant orthobros who meme life all day

YES. CANT WAIT

Isn't it funny that Taylor Marshall won't debate this guy, but demanded Bishop Barron go onto his channel and explain hope all be saved? Marshall made that video saying he doesn't understand what Barron meant and didn't even cite the article on Word on Fire that clarified Barron and was published a few days before the video so he didn't even try to understand Barron.

This video was extremely informative for me. I am not a Catholic not because I reject Catholicism necessarily, but because I have so many questions about it and I don’t necessarily believe everything that the Catholic Church teaches so I might be wrong. My big worry is that if I am wrong I would hate to be separated from Jesus for eternity simply due to lack of information, but Trent here seems to point out that that won’t be the case. It is possible I may still become a Catholic someday if I’m convinced of it, but it is nice to know that Catholics don’t necessarily look down on me or exclude me from salvation simply to ignorance

I love it God bless you brother Trent & Catholic answers 💯 Catholic 🙏📿📖⚔️🛡️😇

Dyer misunderstands that the primacy of the Pope was not really in serious theological dispute until the age of modernism. Indeed, the authority of the Church altogether was in dispute in this age, and the stamp of the Pope is all that could be held up as authority for giving certitude to the Church's witness of Jesus Christ to the world, to uphold Scripture and Tradition. All doctrine that came after Vatican I would be impossible to assert if we were still asking whether the Magisterium has any authority to uphold a belief in Scripture and the apostolic faith. Jay is basically saying (without realizing it) that there is no certainty to Christianity that can be affirmed by the Church, and that personal witness alone can serve as any authority for the witness of Scripture and Tradition. Which is ridiculous.

Thank you, Trent, for this and for ALL your other responses to attacks/criticisms of the Catholic Church. Agnostic through my 40's, I encountered Christ, and my journey into the Catholic Church was long and "mystical." Having listened to this and various other attacks on the Catholic Church, I am working to express my thoughts. Of all the people with KZfaq channels addressing these issues, yours is the MOST impressive in the thought/research/love in working to explain/evaluate/invite dialogue that brings everyone to a better understanding of Christ's Church. I pray many blessings of Christ on you personally and on your work on this channel and other venues. God Bless!

“ I was looking forward to this”

Hm, I just realized why I like Trent and Matt Fradd the most among the YT apologetics due to the huge difference between the tone of Trent and Dyer. Dyer sounds quite arrogant and talks down on anybody or anything he disagrees with while Trent can respectfully and humbly point out the points he feels don't have a standing. Unfortunately several Catholic apologetics are like Dyer. I cannot watch Reason& Theology anymore since he has gotten more and more arrogant in his tone, especially in his community posts. Taylor Marshall has also kind of gone rogue and I have the feeling both R&T and TM have a strong sense that they're smarter than everyone else and only they hold the correct opinion. Trent is a breath of fresh air in the Catholic KZfaq scene.

Seems like both Churches preach charity, but you wouldn't know it by the way some folks talk to eachother in the comments (confession would certainly be prudent for some :). The world hates us and wants our Churches destroyed, so can we at least operate as friends due to a shared enemy? Tangibly, let's read eachother's words in a charitable light before projecting meaning and imagining tone. I swear, it's like listening two kids arguing over whose dad would win in a fight while being stalked by wolves.

Debate?

Thank you for actually engaging with Jay instead of writing him off as “mean” and hand waving his depth of theology that he offers in opposition to Rome. I appreciate your willingness to engage with many traditions, although we don’t come to the same conclusions at this point. ☦️

Excellent! Thank you

I had a zillion questions and doubts. I wanted to be certain I had found the Body of Christ. It was obvious almost immediately that it was either the Roman Catholic church or some tiny outfit somewhere that I'd never heard of. I began to look closely at the Catholic church and after literally thousands of hours of investigation, studying and learning, it became crystal clear that she is the church founded and sustained by Christ. She is the real deal. Where Christ is. Where love awaits us.

Trent, can you (or have you already) do a show or make a comment on Quo Primum and how this fits together with the new motu proprio ?

I always get the feeling that Jay is still an evangelical Protestant in his DNA.

God bless you Sir

Did Micheal from R&T rebut this video too?

I agree with everything Trent has to say here except for the part on where he speaks on presuppositionalism. Presuppositional apologetics actually originated from Catholic saints, not the Reformers. Most people don't seem to know that. St. Irenaeus was a presuppositionalist and used presuppositional arguments for God and Catholicism in his writings. And St. John Damascus used a transcendental argument for knowledge and sense perception. So this is the only mistake so far that Trent has made in the video.

Jay may be wrong about the Magisterium and the Papacy, but he understands youtube entertainment dynamic. It's fun to see him get worked up about things. I know people complain about it, but some of those same people are like half his audience.

Why is he so obsessed with studying Catholicism? To me this shows God has a placed a desire in him to be Catholic and in communion with Christ’s true church.

Protestants may protest the catholic but not eating the last supper/holy communion means one has forgotten Jesus and his instruction to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

Finally formidable opponent for jay!

God Bless Trent Horn

God bless you Trent

Jay doesn't know anything about the Catholic faith. If he did he'd be Catholic. He's leading souls away

Trent you’re keeping me strong in my faith. Please keep doing rebuttals and doing Gods work 🙏

Debating a few Protestants myself online, I get the feeling that they sit around in their study groups trying to confirm why they are not Catholic. If they see us as the enemy then they don't have to fight amongst themselves and argue over all their convoluted doctrines.

there is nothing in the logic of presuppositionalism against the Catholic faith... the problem of Dyer, as well as of many other anti-Catholics out there, is to think that the catholic faith is entirely based on papal dogmatic declarations, which is simply ridiculous - the patristic tradition of the faith has primary authority to define what constitutes catholic doctrine

For those saying Jay has a hatred of RC because of his Protestant roots - you should know that for a number of years he was RC.

Great video as always Trent. One minor quibble, at around 1hr38mins I think your response to Jay's accusation of irrevence probably warranted a longer answer (probably a whole separate video in fact). I think it's perfectly fine to acknowledge that some irreverence has crept in and that more needs to be done about it. Simply dismissing it as a "liturgical winter" is inadequate in my view. Apart from that, please keep up the great work. God Bless

Well done Trent

Good stuff, but you can't just write off the David Wemhoff book. I managed to buy a hardcover copy of it, so it's still out there. Might be worth responding to in depth at some point.

So what about Chieti document. Does this doc. deny the one true Church, the papal primacy in the first milenia, the extra (Catholic) eklessia nula salus?

When I heard Jay when I heard him on podcast then I asked Trent if he can check this out. Thank you Trent.

I knew it would be him haha! Thank you for this brother 🙏

Council's are responses to heresies... so if this was an issue of the schism, why was it not addressed then? That said I appreciate you actually addressing and defending your position as opposed to attacking EO...

1:16:11 Isn't it contrary to the whole teaching of the IV Lateran Council?

On the death penalty, one thing that comes to mind is the nature of our post-Christian culture. Many, if not most, criminals put to death would die as non-Catholics, or even non-Christians, sealing their damnation through the State. In past centuries, there was a predominantly Catholic culture, that meant these criminals could still widely receive the mercy of Last Rites and Confession before their execution. That doesn't really happen anymore due to the secularized culture. Therefore, Pope Francis making this change in light of the modern world is a mercy, of a kind.

Trent, you could sit down and debate Dyer on these issues. It would be pretty good for all, I think.

I cam becoming Eastern Orthodox. I made a comment that was plainly wrong and upon studying the matter it is no longer defensible, eastern catholicism refutes rome.

Trent, I would like to see a discussion between you and Taylor Marshall occur on your podcast.

Even though dyer has a big bookshelf behind him, we all know trents bookshelf has to at least be another few hundred feet off camera.

Jay Dyer reminds me of a Orthodox version of Christopher Hitchens. Great with rhetoric but theres quite a few times where the substance of what he says is lacking.. He strawmans quite a bit.

Why is Trent always so awesome?

Thank you mr. Horn for your work.

I was born and raised Catholic but I'm now a Presbyterian but I still love your channel. Good job.

I think the Church has overdone it on ecumenicalism and religous dialogue (Assisi being the prime example). But members of the EO communion have no right to criticize. EO were at Assisi and the EO are members of the National COuncil of Churches and the World Council of Churches. The RC has only observer status.

Every Catholic rebuttal to any of Jay's points: Matthew 16:17

Can you do an episode on religious freedom because I'm really confused.

J Dyer is snobby and condescending. He also has some fairly petty reasons for not being Catholic. Obscure references in centuries old church documents disagreeing with each other would not ruin my day, but it makes him angry and sarcastic.

Let's see a debate!!

Orthobros assemble! Trent stepping into next level apologetics where actual threats are made.😬

Jay Dyer is the James White of the Eastern Orthodox

I would love to see a debate between you two!