ShadowDark RPG, Winner of the OGL War?

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Unscripted & Unchained RPG Review

Unscripted & Unchained RPG Review

2 ай бұрын

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ShadowDark RPG, Winner of the OGL War?
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@hawkeyepearce1066
@hawkeyepearce1066 Ай бұрын
As a player & DM who started out with a mash-up of B/X and a few photocopied pages from the 1e PHB, Shadowdark has scratched my itch for easy-to-run, high-peril play. Of all the OSR variants that have sprung up from the OGL over the last couple of decades, this is the first that "feels" like the D&D I used to play.
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
As far as emulating style OSE is probably the best for B/X. OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord for emulating 1st Ed AD&D. Swords & Wizardry for OD&D. For Gold & Glory for 2ed. And if you're familiar with Dungeon Crawl Classics, SD to me feels a lot like DCC. In fact, many DCC ideas were borrowed by Shadowdark. I like the DCC style but myself prefer something that emulates 1st Ed better like OSRIC or Labyrinth Lord. And if you want truly edgy play - Lamentation of the Flame Princess. Always up for some dark LotFP games.
@hawkeyepearce1066
@hawkeyepearce1066 Ай бұрын
@@quantus5875 I think I've got all of the systems you've mentioned there (except for Gold and Glory, which is ironic, given that 2E was the edition I played most back in the day). They're all good, and I've pillaged them for ideas on an ongoing basis, but I have players that have become accustomed to the 5E ruleset. So 5E rules which come with characters that have the "old-school" feel of vulnerability, have really reinforced the engagement the players have with their characters (they also LOVE the roll every other level for an advancement trait). I've babbled on a bit, but basically I agree that all the OSR systems you've mentioned are great recreations of the MANY iterations of D&D.
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
@@hawkeyepearce1066 Yes, if your players are accustomed to D&D 5Ed is a criterion then Shadowdark is a great choice! I still however prefer C&C, Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, and LoftP and would mention that they are all super easy to learn to play. The formatting and layout of Shadowdark actually reminds me a lot of LoftP layout -- although Lamentations is a darker and edgier game, perhaps even too dark for some. Yes, that roll for every other level for a random trait is interesting -- I've seen that before -- the oldest TTRPG that I've seen random abilities/powers being used was Gamma World 1Ed (1978) with mutations, I own a PDF copy of Metamorphosis Alpha (1975) in MA you randomly roll how many mutations you get but then you pick them (although defects were randomly determines), in GW you roll for them. Random abilities can be a fun little mechanic. Although I remember us almost immediately house ruling the Gamma World table to not allow a few super powerful mutations (if you rolled them, you'd just have to roll again), and letting the player reroll any junk mutations. Long term just not fun -- to get junk powers/abilities, much more fun to get good abilities. Random is fun -- but the abilities you get should be roughly balanced.
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
Oh -- and forgot to mention first fantasy game where I've seen random abilities tables (with a ton of random charts) is Arduin Grimoire Vol 1 (1977), which actually predates GW 1Ed. David Hardgrave called them special abilities charts. Lots of cool ideas in Arduin -- but never played it.
@brianthomas4383
@brianthomas4383 Ай бұрын
I ran a Shadowdark game for the first time recently, and it played really well. Its fast, light, smooth, and intuitive. Which is exactly what I want in a game. Everyone at my table was an old school AD&D player, and we all loved it. I can definitely see this as being the go-to system for alot of people. And Kelsey always comes across as nice and kind, which is great to see.
@rontalkstabletop
@rontalkstabletop Ай бұрын
Shadowdark has taken over the convention scene!
@DM_Bluddworth
@DM_Bluddworth Ай бұрын
Its point of entry (cost and ease of system) is so much more accessible than 5E or any of the others that I mentioned in the video.
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
@@DM_Bluddworth I like SD -- ok -- yes I agree more accessible than D&D re: cost, but still a pretty pricey game for a NuSL game. Games like Basic Fantasy from a cost perspective are far more accessible.
@mykediemart
@mykediemart Ай бұрын
Shadowdark was in the pipeline before the OGL debacle so it had a leg up over the "reactionary" games. Layout, editing and presentation are top tier. Its also easy to pick up and play.
@DM_Bluddworth
@DM_Bluddworth Ай бұрын
Yes, it was a few years in the works and dropped exactly when the iron was hot. What Kelsey Dionne did not do was reverse course, one WOTC dropped its OGL debacle. She also wisely did not call her game a “D&D Killer”, because WizBro is doing that all on their own.
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
@@DM_Bluddworth Yes -- of the "OGL/NuGL" games the two that have done well seem to be the ones that have done really good marketing. OSE and SD.
@DM_Bluddworth
@DM_Bluddworth Ай бұрын
@@quantus5875 Looking at recent conventions SD seems to have surpassed OSE.
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
@@DM_Bluddworth I perhaps agree with you -- but conventions is only one metric (an a very hard one to really measure) -- on sales (and who really knows) as everyone except WoTC is a private company. I think OSE has a leg up. But yeah -- who really knows. I will agree with you that SD is pretty "trendy" right now. I think the only thing we all know for sure is that Paizo and Chaosium are loving it right now. I think everyone -- benefitted from the OGL debacle. Some more than others -- but everyone benefitted. One thing SD does have going for it is it based on 5Ed -- so easy for 5Ed people to play it -- although I'd argue that many OSR games are super easy to play -- like Basic Fantasy -- super easy to learn -- and OSE is super clean like SD -- super easy to learn as well.
@kyrnsword72
@kyrnsword72 Ай бұрын
Shadowdark has great tables for rolling up game worlds. What Shadowdark needs is a book of Character Classes all in 1 book. Going by your criteria: yes Shadowdark won 2024 OGL. I still like using Shadowdark with D100 Dungeon mapping game. Maybe Arcane Library can come up with its own tile mapping system for overland and underdark crawls also.
@marioevildm7410
@marioevildm7410 Ай бұрын
I have converted all my D&D 5E to ShadowDark, I approve of this video 💜💜
@opaqued2039
@opaqued2039 Ай бұрын
Catching up on videos. First, I am impressed with this creator. She had good timing, but even more, she showed a real understanding of the type of product that TTRPG customers want. And she does it all without the annoying bits you see in Critical Role or the ego/self absorption and love of 4e of Matthew Colville. Not necessarily related to the video, but I have to ask, would you play Shadowdark in addition to (or in place of) Castles & Crusades? It looks like a better alternative to 5e (for sure), but for my group, C&C is their favorite of all time. I already have insane amounts of TSR edition D&D materials (reprints and original books), Swords and Wizardry, OSE, OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, Dragonbane, Blueholme, Basic Fantasy, White Box, and others I can't even remember. I've also given serious consideration to purchasing Dragonslayer (as well as Shadowdark). (Maybe I have a problem?) So, the one question I ask before making another purchase is: Would we use this as much as C&C. With the Gygax world building materials I just signed up for, and the Amazing Adventure redux I'm still waiting on, I have more C&C materials than any other system (outside of TSR D&D), and it's definitely my personal favorite up to this point--especially when combined with books from previous editions of D&D.
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
I'd also be interested in hearing DM Bludworth's opinion as he is a big C&C fan and one of the main reasons I watch his videos - his C&C content is fantastic! IMO Shadowdark is a really good game (played it twice) and enjoyed both sessions, but my preference is definitely for C&C. The only advantage that Shadowdark has -- is that it is a little bit easier to switch over for people that only know D&D 5Ed, because SD, of course, uses 5Ed mechanics. Although, I've taught many people how to play C&C in a single game session -- and C&C is almost trivial to learn for those coming from 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Ed D&D. I also have a huge library of C&C material (their primary game setting, Aihrde is incredible) and it is my favorite system for using all of my old AD&D 1st and 2nd Ed adventures and supplements. It's just such a clean, flexible, simple system -- and love the fact that it has been around 20+ years -- with no edition change! Can't think of any other company that can claim that. If you have the first printing from 2004 -- you can still use it. I would play SD if my group wanted to play SD (really, I'm willing to try almost anything), but the group I play with - like me -- also has a preference for C&C. We're just not in that demographic of people that only know 5Ed. Oh, and Amazing Adventures!! -- fantastic game - I hear they are working on a 2Ed of AA. Looking forward to it. A game that I would love to see get more traction!
@opaqued2039
@opaqued2039 Ай бұрын
@@quantus5875 Agree on all points. C&C is phenomenal. I just got the autographed reprint of the C&C 1e PHB. It's hilarious to see how far they've come with layout and editing. I love a lot of their classic art even more than their newer art. I first dipped into Aihrde with their boxed sets of the A series of modules. Assault on Blacktooth Ridge is easily in my top 3 modules ever, and I love the build up to Aufstrag. C&C was the system my long time players chose for me to run when they were sick of D&D 5e and Pathfinder 2e--which did not take long. I have the pdf of the new AA PHB. I'm still waiting on the physical copies of the rest of the books, but I like it already. If they weren't coming out with a new edition, I'd use the previous AA. I previously used AA to supplement my C&C games--tomb raider is a ready made dungeon delver class-but the real fun was running a classic TMNT campaign set in the late 70s-early 80s with AA mechanics. When we were kids, we played TMNT and Other Strangeness as a modern break from our D&D sessions. We loved the randomness and the weirdness of the game, but the mechanics were a mess. With AA, I had the perfect mechanics for TMNT (as well as Beyond the Supernatural, Ninjas and Super Spies, and Heroes Unlimited). Now we can have all of the Palladium settings without the Palladium mechanics. The end goal will eventually be to create a master campaign that pulls together a Rifts style game using the Siege engine and ideas from AA. For that, I'd actually have to take time off from work though...
@houndsandjackals
@houndsandjackals Ай бұрын
Hey cool! You got my Mystmoor showing - thanks :) - great video!!!!!
@hawkeyepearce1066
@hawkeyepearce1066 Ай бұрын
Shadowdark has some robust support via Foundry VTT, as well as on Fantasy Grounds. Both great VTT systems.
@verlandes1
@verlandes1 6 күн бұрын
I'm running this for youths at the library where I work, all the kids are super into it.
@Owl_of_Omens
@Owl_of_Omens Ай бұрын
100% ! Shadowdark has reinvigorated my gaming groups pension for old school dungeon crawling mixed with barebone but in depth role-playing and world building. It has lit a fire!
@aaronfrey4418
@aaronfrey4418 Ай бұрын
I love SD. It came out right when I wanted to play an OSR game. The art sold me on backing it on KS and I never back projects on there. I joined the discord and have been playing with people on there ever since. My next goal is to have an in person game and finally use the DM screen.
@Decado1628
@Decado1628 Ай бұрын
Shadowdark is def the winner of the OGL wars. Kelsey had perfect timing with its release. I am hoping to get to play in a SD adventure soon. I may even GM a session or two as well. Right now, I am running Vaesen and two different C&C campaigns.
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
New C&C kickstarter coming soon! Still reprints -- no edition change - amazing - 2004 -- and still 1st Ed -- can't think of any game that has gone that long and not done an edition change - they're already hard at work pulling out all the OGL stuff. Really looking forward to it! Hats off to the Troll Lords.
@guapounggoy
@guapounggoy Ай бұрын
It's a very strong system. Any fantasy setting or module can be used practically right out of the box. I like that I can take something that I could never get anyone to play, and plug it into Shadowdark system and almost anyone can understand how to play without needing a doctorate to learn the rules. There is a Roll 20 character sheet available and it works well enough.
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
I agree with you but same is true for almost any OGL game like Castles & Crusades, Labyrinth Lord, OSE, Basic Fantasy -- not denying that SD isn't a good game -- but what puts it above OSE or Basic Fantasy?
@cybermerlyn2
@cybermerlyn2 Ай бұрын
I was questioning if I needed another OSR game when I heard about Shadowdark. I was thinking I would just be throwing money at something that is the same as every other OSR game that I had bought before, I could not have been more wrong. The game simplifies all the bloat I have seen in the game (D&D) from it's origin, are simplified and easy to understand due to the wonderful layout. I cannot wait for Shadowpunk (Cyberpunk), Shadowspace (Sci-fi) or any other worlds that will use this system, the community is wonderful with creators putting out plenty of new content. If the momentum holds, this could be the game people think of when you say "Do you play roleplaying games?" .
@VegasDM
@VegasDM Ай бұрын
Shadowdark is the best D&D one can experience right now. However, I think it could use a character class book. I don't think it needs a setting book becuase any of the old settings work really well with it as do all the basic/ad&d modules. We do Shadowdark in Mystara and its glorious
@DM_Bluddworth
@DM_Bluddworth Ай бұрын
Without its own setting (book) it won’t separate itself as fully its own thing (IMO).
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
@@DM_Bluddworth Yes, agreed it needs it's own setting. You're not going to ride for long without your own setting.
@paulbigbee
@paulbigbee Ай бұрын
@@DM_Bluddworth While not an official world of course, Chubby Funster (Greg Christopher) adapted Dark Sun into his _ShadowSun_ setting, and I'm prepping a campaign of Pulp Hummock's _Gods of the Forbidden North_ . I agree it will be interesting to see what Kelsey decides to do around this; the core book and Cursed Scrolls have some of what I recall her saying is her home table setting. Perhaps she'll follow Traveller's direction, leaving large swaths of the official world open for third party and homebrew content!
@VegasDM
@VegasDM Ай бұрын
@@DM_Bluddworth its a fair point. I'm happy using Mystara but I would also buy a settings book. To be honest, Shadowdark is so good I would purchase whatever Kelsey wants to put out for it
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
Hi Dm Bludsworth -- Tales of the Valiant PDFs came out about week ago with the hardcover books slates to ship this June. Already starting to see reviews for it. Would be great if you could review! Although not sure if it's your style of a game. Power level is around the same as 5Ed. Very customizable game with lots of Kobold Press goodness. People are already saying that Tales of the Valiant is to D&D 5e, what Pathfinder 1Ed was to D&D 3Ed. Now that ToV is out will be interesting to see how well it does. From what I've seen its a great option for those that want to move away from WoTC and stay with a game that is very close to 5Ed. There is a conversion guide that I've been studying and the level of compatibility between 5Ed and ToV is amazing - 5Ed content is super easy to use with ToV.
@DM_Bluddworth
@DM_Bluddworth Ай бұрын
Hard pass because I never liked the way 5E played. A clone / Homebrew of 5E has no appeal to me.
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
​@@DM_Bluddworth I hear you - Yes, it's more of an option for 5Ed players for people that really like 5Ed and want to play something very similar in feel (to include a very similar power level) to 5ed, and have a lot invested in 5e, but want to move away from WoTC. Will be a ton of reviews of ToV in the next few weeks now that the PDFs were released last week. Yes, I think Kobold Press had to make a choice -- Same power level as 5ed or lower power level? They chose same power level and are clearly going after the 5Ed players, will be interesting to see how well this strategy pans out and how well they execute. They are a really good gaming outfit, do have a wealth of goodness of material that they have published for D&D (3e/4e/5e) and Pathfinder, and their campaign setting "Midgard" is fantastic.
@juddgoswick2024
@juddgoswick2024 Ай бұрын
I want to get a chance to play it soon.
@joshjered6462
@joshjered6462 Ай бұрын
I definitely love Shadowdark, but I'm still hooked on Hyperborea and I'm fairly excited for Shadow of the Weird Wizard and 13th Age 2 edition. Definitely see those as being big contenders this year
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
Oh -- 13th Age -- love that game. 4th Ed -- done right!! 😊 -- another one I like is Green Ronin's Fantasy Age -- especially their new 2nd Ed.
@mediocremodeler5174
@mediocremodeler5174 Ай бұрын
Where can we get hard copies of slumbering city? Drivethru only has pdf and I can’t read those.
@DM_Bluddworth
@DM_Bluddworth Ай бұрын
I will ask Thom Wilson.
@mediocremodeler5174
@mediocremodeler5174 Ай бұрын
@@DM_Bluddworth greatly appreciated.
@DM_Bluddworth
@DM_Bluddworth Ай бұрын
Lulu Press is where you can get physical copy
@mediocremodeler5174
@mediocremodeler5174 Ай бұрын
@@DM_Bluddworth thanks! Got it.
@ajaxplunkett5115
@ajaxplunkett5115 Ай бұрын
Shadowdark was a great success and a close call but hard pass. After buying Castles and Crusades , Hyperboria 3e and ACKS and ACKS II Kickstarter I sort of filled up on Fantasy rpg's in the last 12 months. All of these were also in their way a success and covered here on Unscripted and Unchained , thanks again DM Bludworth!!
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
Yes -- thanks DM Bludsworth. Any fan of Castles & Crusades -- earns mega points with me!! Thanks for an awesome channel!
@sunsin1592
@sunsin1592 Ай бұрын
Plus, all of those games are vastly superior to Shadowdull....
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
And Troll Lord Games -- is such an amazing company. I'm a military vet and they give an amazing military discount -- they've offered it to me when I told them -- but never took them up on it -- cause I just want to support them - and I will continue to support them. Been playing C&C since 2025 (a year after it was released) -- and no edition changes -- you can still play with the first printing of the rules from 2004 if you wanted to. Don't think any other company had done that. That's 20 years -- and still on 1st Ed!! WoTC could learn wonders from the Chenault brothers. What a fantastic company!! -- oh and no woke nonsense! They're just interested in publishing great, fun games! No political ideology. 🙂
@primafacie5029
@primafacie5029 Ай бұрын
Similar story, also bought Hyberboria, ACKS etc as well as Warlock! (Warhammer lite style)
@ajaxplunkett5115
@ajaxplunkett5115 Ай бұрын
Interestingly, there were a half a dozen osr/BX-ish 5e retro clones that predate Shadowdark too -- like Five Torches Deep, Olde Swords Reign and a very underrated Gem , Into the Unknown. All 5e compatible with that old school feel - but they never made a million bucks.
@parttimed.m.1111
@parttimed.m.1111 Ай бұрын
Have never played but really want to!
@ctorus
@ctorus Ай бұрын
Any love for Low Fantasy Gaming?
@DM_Bluddworth
@DM_Bluddworth Ай бұрын
I looked at the Low Fantasy RPG years ago, but Conan 2D20 is pretty much that genre anyway. I will check it out though.
@Darkwintre
@Darkwintre Ай бұрын
It’s possible.
@deadlyDM
@deadlyDM Ай бұрын
If you're sleeping on Shadowdark, don't. One of the easiest playing systems I've ran in a long time. I'll be 46 this year and haven't had this much fun gaming since I was a teenager.
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
Others that are just as easy to play are OSE and Basic Fantasy. And less expensive.
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
I liked your video -- however your claim IMO is a strange one. "What does Winner of the OGL Wars even mean?". I would argue that D&D will still be king and some loss in market share due to the OGL debacle will be spread out to a variety of players with the biggest winner probably being Paizo, and I would not -- even -- claim Paizo as the winner -- the winner is still D&D -- they've mucked it up a lot recently (yeah some serious muckers) -- but that IP is so dominant -- I don't see anyone unseating D&D no matter how much they muck it up (and yeah the OGL debacle was a doozy). Some market share loss yes -- being unseated no. I like Shadowdark -- but really fail to see any significant difference between SD and all kinds of OGL games -- the only real difference IMO is Shadowdark is based off of 5Ed (with a bunch of OGL goodness thrown in). I still much prefer games like Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, OSE, Lamentations, and Castles & Crusades. And when I ask someone who plays SD - no one can tell me in any objective way why SD is better than OSE (other than lots of subjective reasons -- like well -- it just feels better). I think SD will do well for a small company - Arcane Library has certainly done really good marketing -- and it's definitely trendy right now -- but yeah... Re: play -- I see Pathfinder easily being the second most played TTRPG after D&D, and currently easily has #2 market share after D&D. btw: to put this into perspective -- but a little bit of research will show that WotC has 1000+ employees (although yes WotC also has Magic the Gathering to manage) in 2020 and Paizo is estimated to have around 150-180 employees (hard to tell for sure as it is a private company), but we have this rough range from people that work there. That should put things in perspective. I guess what you might be saying is that ShadowDark is #1 among OGL in 2024 (although I classify SD as NuGL) -- so yes - maybe take games like Call of Cthulhu, Pathfinder, Starfinder, Star Wars from FFG, etc. out of the equation, although even then I'd still argue that OSE is maybe doing better than SD (although this is anecdotal like your claim), with Shadowdark maybe running at #2 in OGL/NuGL land? Yes, hard to tell as there is no real market share data -- just surveys and observations.
@DM_Bluddworth
@DM_Bluddworth Ай бұрын
I agree the only D&D killer will be at the hands of WizBro. But with conventions on the rise, post pandemic closures, I'm looking at what is being run at conventions. 5E has definitely lost the majority share of game session slots. This year's Philadelphia Area Game Expo had shown that 5E was surpassed by game sessions of OD&D, BECMI, AD&D 1E / 2E when those were combined. Stacked up against Castles & Crusades, C&C exceeded 5E by about 30+ sessions. I anticipate that trend to continue at other conventions as well. As WotC moves towards D&D 2024 / 6E, with its massive rule books (3 in all) and at a cost of at least $70 each, new players will be looking at at least a $250 investment. Couple that with a projected $30 per month D&DB subscription, I just don't see it selling well. A bulk of the players who do stay on with WOTC D&D will stick to D&DB at that cost and play online. That's my prediction, and it really is what WizBro is hoping for.
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
@@DM_Bluddworth Yes, I think it's a good thing. I don't mind seeing everyone else benefit from WotC misteps -- I like D&D -- but if you're going to be idiots (to include all of of their woke nonsense) then you deserve to lose some market share. Troll Lord Games (Castles & Crusades) has had two really good years -- Chaosium (Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest, Pendragon) - Green Ronin (Mutants & Masterminds, Fantasy AGE, Modern AGE) - Pelgrane Press (13th Age) -- and the OSR/NuSR segment like OSE, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Basic Fantasy, Hyperborea, Swords & Wizardry, Shadowdark, and more -- all kicking behind. Great time to be into TTRPGs! Really hoping that Goblinoid Games will come out with a 2nd Ed of LL. And would love to see a revival of Lamentations of the Flame Princess -- probably the edgiest OSR game of them all. Thanks for fighting the good fight!! and producing such great content!!
@primafacie5029
@primafacie5029 Ай бұрын
I bought it and wasn't really impressed... I've moved to ACKs and LotFP (OSR style games) and am working to kick off a Warlock! RPG game (which is like OSR Fantasy Warhammer)... THAT SAID, I am glad the game is successful and gathering momentum.
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
LotFP!! -- always up for some crazy and dark Lamentations games.
@sunsin1592
@sunsin1592 Ай бұрын
People are still playing Shadowdull? I guess some folks are simply too dumb or lazy to design their own house rules since that's all it is.
@DM_Bluddworth
@DM_Bluddworth Ай бұрын
what are you currently running or playing?
@quantus5875
@quantus5875 Ай бұрын
I don't know if I would go that far -- its takes 5Ed mechanics and mixes in a lot of OSR goodness -- borrows a lot of ideas from DCC -- and a few other indie mechanics taken from different places like -- timers -- which is taken from a game called Torchbearer. Timers are a mechanic that I really dislike. I've played SD twice and immediately ditched the torch mechanic. My view is its a well done game -- but what makes it any better than OSE, Basic Fantasy, C&C, DCC, Hyperborea, L&L, Lamentations, and more? I can't think of anything, and I am extremely familiar with OSR. And one negative for SD is that for an OSR/NuSR game it's a little pricey.
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