Aaaaand... You've unlocked the key to "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". To say the gospels and Acts were patterned after Greek mythological stories, the tragedians, etc., is to say that they were written by evil plagiarists led astray by Satan instead of by holy and devout men who wrote down the Truth™ as guided by the Holy Ghost. 👻

Tragically this ecclesiastical tendency has roots going far back and branches that shade us to this day. I forgot which Christian father replied to a parishioner who asked “what was god doing before he created the world?” His reply was “God was preparing a special hell for people who ask such pernicious questions!”.

This is traditionally what happens when New Testament scholars aren’t versed in ancient languages and cultures. Once a biblical and ancient near eastern scholar understands these aspects, their entire world view of the New Testament as well as Homer changes them in a way they can’t unsee. I’d suggest both scholars dig even further back into history to see where both Homer and the New Testament writers get their inspiration from, specifically ancient culture stories both pre and post flood.

"Before you embark on this journey I warn you that you will learn things you cannot unlearn."

@@lancepalser-cw9ni You're talking about Noah's flood being a historical, literal, real event?

Pythagoras means Heart of the Serpent, he was born in Sidon, a fishing Port in Phoenicia. His mother recieved a message from the Oracle of Delphi that he would become a great Leader and Teacher. Sidon means Kingdom of the Fish, and the Essenes, who wrote the Dead Sea scrolls, worshipped Pythagoras. The Sarcophagus of Eschmun III found in Sidon names him as the Widow's Scion, aka Hiram Abiff, the Founder of Freemasonry, of which Tyre was the premier Capital (at least equal to Thebes). In 911BC Rameses II married the Queen of Sidon, home of Jezebel (Daughter or consort of Baal, basically "Queen") founding Neo Assyrian Babylon, an alliance between Egypt and Hiram, father of Jezebel and King of Assyria, and Egypt, forming the Phoenician colonies and building the first Temple of Melqart to commemorate the alliance. The Si in Sidon is the basis of the Latin Exe, or X, and is the basis of the Cross, or Chi Rho that Constantine painted on his shields. Also known as the Cross of Tyre, or Cross of Baal, being Ra-El, or Ba'El. Oddly enough irrational numbers can also be mapped using Euler's number, producing a Templar Cross in the process: a map of where Eclipses are most likely to occur. This cross can also be seen around the neck of Nimrod in Assyria, and is consistent with the Union Jack, and Solstice Calendar found in the Vatican Shiva Lingam. Shiva is the Hebrew word for 7, their culture also found its way to Japan (via the Phillipines) ultimately becoming Shintoism. It was the Phoenicians who gave their name to the Pole Star, which they used to Navigate the Oceans using the Zodiac, thats what the Antikythera mechanism was for, and with it they wrote the Byblos Baal, what we now call the Bible. The first form of the Bible was written in 325BC and called the Vaticanus Greacus, or Son of the Sacred Serpent, a reference to Sirius, the basis of the Sothic Calendar, which uses a Hexidecimal or base 60 system found in all the Megalithic sites around the world. In the second century AD astronomer Valentinus Vettori transcribed it into a Lunar chart of 13 houses, what we now call the Zodiac. Horoscope means Star Watcher, and the Phoenician word for Saturn, or El, was Israel or El, (Fruit) of Isis and Ra. Alternatively El is the Father of Ra the Sun and Consort of Isis the Earth, aka El is the Moon. El is the primary God of the Phoenicians, representing the offspring of Egypt, and his consort Astarte or Ishtar represents the Assyrian half of the alliance. It may be possible to trace lineages and alliances through the naming of gods, which can be traced all the way to Ireland and the Vikings, and to Indonesia and the Americas, even as far away as New Zealand and Australia. It denotes Sirius as Son of Orion and Pleaides, which sits at 33 degrees of the Zodiac. The basis of the Sothic (dir Seth) Calendar of the Egyptians. The New Moon in this position marks Rosh Hashanah, the Egyptian, Celtic, Phoenician, and Assyrian New Year, the first New Moon of September, which is called September because it's the 7th House of the Zodiac, when the Sun is in Ophiuchus. The Phoenix, Benben, or Bennu is the Egyptian word for Heron, a Feathered 'Serpent'. It baptised itself in frankincense and myrrh at BaalBek, and then alights atop the Pyramid, upon the Holy Grail, or Altar of Ra every 630 years to take three days off the calendar during the course of the first New Moon of Nisan, which means "Prince". The Capstone of Pyramids is even called the Benben or Bennu. The Phoenix is found in all religions, which are all Astrological Allegory for the Moon travelling through the Constellations, as a soul migrating from body to body, this is the basis of Joseph Campbell's Monomyth, or the Hero's Journey. The various planets no doubt play their own roles as portents, omens, and aspects, this astrology is the science of the Bronze age, and lasted all the way up to the 20th Century. Reincarnation was an early teaching of the Christian Church, and likely relates to the lineage of Kings (The Pan is Dead, long live Pan!) Phoenicians represent the interim step between Egypt and Greece, their artisans and culture exceeding that of the Greeks, who literally adopted the Phoenician Alphabet, which we still use to this day, sounding out words phonetically. Phoenician is aliiterated in Venetian, and Vikings, being Kings of the Sea. The Bennu is the Egyptian Phoenix, to Phoenicians the Hoyle, no different to the traditions of the Etruscans, who saw birds as sacred, just as the Celts. Hebrew and Iber as in Iberia have the same root meaning over, as in overseas, as in those who travel "over the sea." A colony called Iberia also appears on the Eastern shores of the Black Sea, where the same Dolmens and Megalithic culture originating in Ireland and Brittany appeared circa 4500BC. _Phoenician_ means Scions of the Phoenix, the first Bible: Vaticanus Greacus Son of the Sacred Serpent (Prince). Then there's the Essenes, Sons of Light, the Tuatha De Danaan, Sons of Light, Annunaki, Sons of Light, Arthur Pendragon means Arthur Son of the Dragon; Chertoff is Russian for "Son of the Devil" and Dracula also means Son of the Dragon, Masons have been known at times to call themselves the "Brotherhood of the Great White Serpent". The Ziggurat of Anu also denotes her as a great white Serpent, while New Grange and the Bru na Boinne in Ireland (4000BC) coated buildings with white quartz to denote the Moon. The Moon itself travels outside the Solar Elliptic by 5 degrees, which means it passes through specific constellations in a serpentine fashion that is always changing, but repeats every 19 years, the time it took to train a Druid or Magi, Magi meaning "Teacher" the Phoenix is also associated with this sacred number 19. The name "Pharoah" means "Great House" or "House of Light" and Cairo used to be called Babel. Pharaoh's themselves wore a hooded crown representing feathers, just as Native American Chiefs, ie the Feathered Serpent, they were also called the Commander in Chief. Aztecs also had Serpent Kings, (Canaan means Serpent Kings, and Sidon was a Son of Canaan, and Great Grandson of Noah) who were called to lead with cunning and guile, being the very virtue by which they claim the title in the first place; but to be seen in public as just and diplomatic. "As wise as Serpents, but gentle as Doves" the old Egyptian flag of an Eagle attacking a Snake is also reflected in the Modern Mexican flag, denoting the Constellations of Serpentis (13th sign of the Zodiac) and Aquila. The dimensions and 12 mathematical constants of the Great Pyramid are also expressed in New Grange, and Stonehenge, as well as in Watson Brake, (2500BC) and Teotihuacan, which correlates to the Phoenician/ Sumerian Hexidecimal system, which is what our modern systems of time are based on. In fact it unlocks a kind of fractal pattern that is reflected throughout creation. Officially no one knows who invented astrology, the zodiac, navigation by the stars, and time keeping. But whoever built the pyramids, and pioneered the 24hr clock in Egypt 5000 years ago also knew the exact dimensions of the Earth, as well as the speed of light. These calculations can all be made using these Megalithic sites as surveyors use a theodolite. Specifically Teotihuacan, which sits 180 degrees opposite Cairo, and has the exact same footprint. The ideal positions to determine the speed of light using the transit of Venus, by which one can accurately determine Longitude for navigation. Capt Cook did the same thing in 1774 when he 'discovered' Easter Island. The only culture that fits the bill was wiped out "not one stone upon the other" by the Romans in 146BC. Tyre, the capital of Phoenicia (israel) sat just offshore from Uru Salaam: City of the New Moon, or City of Peace. The root of the name Jerusalem, and was also seized by Rome in 70AD after a 13 year seige. The gap between is 216 years. Greek Dionysians built the Temple of Solomon (now called the Temple of Melqart) representing the Solar Lunar Metonic Calendar on which this system is based, they also carried mirrors, a practice associated with both the Magi and the Druids as well as Greek and Egyptian scholars, these Mirrors are Astrological charts called "Cycladian Frying Pans" and record the cycles of the planets. The first Temple of Melqart (the Phoenician form of Horus, or Hercules, or Pan, or Thor) representing the 13th Constellation of Ophiuchus or the Serpent Bearer (hence Orphic Serpent worship) had pillars of Emerald and Gold, representing Isis and Osiris. The Jerusalem Temple only took payment in "Shekels of Tyre" a currency minted during the Jewish rebellion against Rome. "Give that which is Ceasar's unto Ceasar" When Alexander sacked Tyre in 332BC they moved to Carthage meaning "New City" or New Jerusalem, where they built a second temple with Pillars of Bronze. Nebuchadnezzar also seiged Tyre for 13 years, taking the City captive in 573BC: the same time as the biblical account of the Jews. And again in 70AD after a three and a half year seige, also consistent with biblical accounts. Palaset was the name of a tribe of the Sea Peoples, Pallas Set denotes the New Moon of Ammun Ra rising in Gemini, the Pallas Constellation of the Twins that stand before Orion. This occurs due West of the Temple of Solomon in Tyre between the Western Gates of Gibraltar, Gabriel's Altar, and is the basis of the name Pallastein, or Pallas Stone. As in the Philosopher's Stone or Holy Grail, Altar of Ammun Rah, the Rising Sun. The Cross of Tyre or Ba'El ❌ represents the Lunar maximums and minimums and correlates with the Cross Quarter days of the Solstice Calendar. Align the Cross ❌ Chi Rho Christian ✝️ and Star 🔯 to the zodiac and you have a Compass and a timepiece that can be used to Circumnavigate the globe. It's Astrological Allegory for a Metonic Eclipse Zodiac Calendar using Accusations in a Mirror 🪞

@@Uncanny_Mountainlmao take your meds, so much effort on nonsense!

@@Uncanny_Mountain Thank you for sharing old astrological information at fate's crossroads

Because scholars have to protect Jesus and Christianity from the heathen at all costs. Jesus has to be special.

The main argument I've seen, though probably not the only one, is that MacDonald's theory requires a level of education that was pretty much exclusively found in the upper class, ie. not found among the sort of people who were either writing or reading Christian texts in the first century. Personally, I don't know enough about the subject to say one way or the other.

You don't need a wolf to be a shepherd to be a bad scenario. The shepherd's work is already to exploit and consume the sheep. A shepherd itself is worst enemy of the sheep

Teachings thru myth and symbolism. Mult places biblical text says this is allegory or parable. William Donahue’s videos maybe interesting for this. Many to this day incl religions have benefited by belief the texts are literal or history books. Fear and need for outside authority vs looking in are powerful. For me the late Jiddu Krishnamurti (not guru or master etc) teachings have had the most value but were all diff and I stay opened minded.

Mythology is also a way of trying to explain real events, even if just by guessing fictional events to explain the perception of the world. "Why do we see the Sun moving? Because Hellios moves it in his chariot!" It tries to explain the real world. It's not a "theological turth without regard of the real world, therefore real". No. Mythology, including the NT, are tales that try to explain the world, regardless if they did it correctly or not. Trying to say the opposite is basically apologism trying to safe the unsafable

Exactly. Every other religion past and present is put under the microscope, but Christianity is given free pass or at the very least a mulligan!

Fellow Scottish fan

It's only a tiny fraction of the story Now go to Mexico and learn about theirs And Ireland And New Zealand One Megalithic hour is 240 minutes, or 14,400 seconds (1/4) There are 6 Megalithic hours to the day, each made up of 6 minutes, each of which is 6 seconds long. If the Megalithic hour was divided into 60 minutes, each would be 1,440 of our seconds, times 100 is 144,000. One Megalithic second is 400 of our modern seconds, divided by 60 (to get minutes) is 6.6666666.... 360 ÷ 6.66 is 54 54 x 2 is 108 108 x 2 is 216 To effect this the hands on a clock count out 10 (units of 6) x 10 (units of 6) × 4 (=400 units of 6). Therefore the relationship of the Megalithic second to our current form is mathematically proportional to the ratio between the Sun and Moon. A Megalithic second is 6.66 minutes (400 seconds). A Megalithic Minute is 40 minutes, or 2,400 seconds. 6 x 6 x 6 x 400 = 86,400, the number of seconds in a day. This would mean a clock with 216 seconds would go around 40 times in a day (2160 x 400). This means 1 Megalithic second is 6.66 of our modern minutes, meaning their metric system is based on the Full Moon, of which 360 fit into to the night sky, and 720 will encircle the globe, divided by half gives us the 360 degree circle, and the basis for our present hexadecimal system of time. Which is why 1 degree of Arc on the Moon = 100 Megalithic Yards (2700ft). This means the Beast, the hidden hand of the Masonic fraternity, is the Moon; and Time. The white limestone covering of the Pyramids denotes the Pale Moon in Megalithic Ireland, like at New Grange, where Enoch describes a Crystal Palace illuminated by the Full Moon every 19 years. 6 x 6 x 6 is 216, there are 2160 years in an astrological age, and the Moon is 2160 miles in diameter, the solar metonic calendar using 60 6 day weeks produces 1 extra day every 216 years. There are also 216 Megalithic seconds in a day, and 216 letters in the name of the Hebrew God, Just as Solomon has 36 or 72 scrolls, and Muhammed speaks of 72 sects. Enoch also buries 36,525 scrolls, the number of days in a year, times 100. Oh by the way, this shows that our current measure of time is based on the principle of 1/6, the basis of an Egyptian Royal Cubit, but first they built the first ring at Stonehenge, which is 100 metres (330 ft) wide, with an area of 2160 square feet, a Cube's interior angles also add up to... 2160! This produces a Calendar of 60 6 day weeks plus five. Every 4th year a 366th day makes exactly 61 weeks. This means every 216 years this calendar produces 1 extra day, so after 648 years 3 days must be removed. This is when the Phoenix arrived, and stepped onto the Alter of Ra or Holy Grail, completing the Metonic cycle and bringing the Calendar back into sync with the first New Moon of the Spring equinox. The Capstone of the Pyramid is even called the Benben Stone, the Egyptian Phoenix is called the Bennu. It likely relates to Deneb, in Ophiuchus, the 13th Starsign of the Zodiac. The base of the Pyramid is exactly 13 Acres, as is Teotihuacan, because they share the exact same base dimensions. Such a location would be ideal for calculating the speed of light using the transit of Venus. Incidentally the Great Pyramid's Latitudinal coordinates are the speed of light. 1440 ÷ 108 = 13.333333 11 and 3 are the most sacred Celtic numbers of royalty, and also happen to be the proportions of the Earth to the Moon, and the Great Pyramid. The starsigns also precess 1 degree every 72 years 72 x 3 is 216 2160 ÷ 648 is 3.3333333 The Aztec Calendar also begins with a double transit of Venus, in 3116BC. This whole code can be encoded into a single Pythagorean Triangle of Dimensions 666 by 630, by 216, this is the Key of Solomon, 33 is the inverse of 66. 100 is the "perfect number" because it represents 10 6 unit metrics times 10 6 unit metrics, a unit being 6.66 ie 60 x 60 (3600) the number of Arcdegree seconds in a second, or a one second unit on a clock the size of Earth This means seconds represent 10ths of the Moon; 216, or 6 x 6 x 6 (100 ÷ 6 ÷ 6 = 2.7): Euler's number, and the number of feet to a Megalithic Yard, 3/11 is .27 and the number of days in a sidereal month is also 27. 11/3 is 3.66, the number of days in a Canicular leap year, the character of Thoth, Cuchulainn, and Kukulkan, the Dog Star, and star by which the Sothic (Seth) Calendar is determined. Thoth was the Son of Seth, who is portrayed as a Serpent. 3 x 11 is 33, the years in a Great Solar Return. As the Sun and Moon inhabit their respective houses of the Zodiac they animate the character within, playing out the dramas and battles we know as myths, for example the Moon traveling through each of the Zodiac houses each month, for a grand total of... 144 (12 x 12) Metatron/Enoch/Echnaton/Arkenaten's Cube is 13 circles in a Star of David: 13 x 360 is 4680 4680 ÷ 216 is 21.666..

@@Uncanny_Mountain You became so smart that your intelligence decreased.

@@user-ws1pp2hg2j I love a circular argument You must be the coolest cat on the internet 😎 Go you 👍

​@@Uncanny_Mountain 😐.. I bet you're fun at parties.

​@@Uncanny_MountainAmazing. I'll have to read it again. Thank you for sharing this information.

Did anyone die as martyrs swearing to the truths of Homer?

We don't have reliable information about the true fate of most of the apostles. Some of the accounts that do exist in the Christian tradition are wildly contradictory and we don't really have a basis to trust them. They also have a strong bias and motive to lie about the fates of apostles that disappeared from history. You should not trust Christian legends without some form of corroboration because of these severe problems.

@@RustyWalker True enough. The stories about the apostles, at least some of them, are likely legendary or exaggerated. But what is not in dispute is that a great many Christians were martyred for the faith they refused to recant; and over the past 20 centuries, up to our present day, millions have been similarly martyred.

@@user-pm3mw8xw8d Actually, even that's not clear. It's not clear they were offered an opportunity to recant. Pliny the Younger didn't say what crimes Christians in the second century were accused of nor that they were asked to recant. What he said was that they were given multiple opportunities to prove their innocence and he found nothing remarkable in them besides their wild superstition.

@@RustyWalker Prove they were innocent of what?

That's the story of Porcus, and it is way funnier because Aphrodite yells 'You Pig!" When you go from 3rd decan Aquarius to first decan pisces, the pig is killed. The 3rd decan of Aquarius is symbolized by the pig because Egyptians used them for agriculture, and the time for planting was often right in that decan.

Horus, Isis, Osiris and Egyptians God's.

The earliest fragments of Mark's gospel predates the earliest fragments of Homer by a century. And those Horus, etc, stories bear no similarity to Bible stories at all.

@@user-pm3mw8xw8d Homer is well-attested for many centuries before any gospels, spread far and wide along with the Greek language by Alexander's conquests. Which did happen.

Aren't those related though? What are the Gentile sources you are referencing? Would they not be more Greek oriented than you're Jewish sources?

It seems like he tried to balance the very Greco-Roman divine birth myth by including the genealogy right next to it in order to prove Davidic origin, which seems to also evoke/parallel the genealogies in the Old Testament

Same source, and it's found everywhere Trojan War 1200BC Rameses II conquest of Qadesh 1200BC David v Golaith 1200BC I know, there are 216 years missing, because they were added to the fall of Carthage and Tyre, aka Jerusalem and New Jerusalem

And also, Matthew re-patterned the storyline after the progress of the Jewish War as both Joseph Atwill and James Valliant have figured out. The rest of their hypotheses I'll leave alone for now because I don't like conspiracy theories, having been stung by 9/11 Trutherism.

@@user-uo7fw5bo1o Do you think after Matthew did that Mark was restructured to somewhat match? It seems like the gospels could’ve easily been edited to match one another, even in small ways.

Unfortunately Atwill has sullied himself in recent years and isn’t welcome in polite company. James Valiant has done a far better job of explaining how the Flavians got rid of Jesus and replaced him with a mythologized Christ figure. I read Caesar’s Mesiah when it was hot off the press and I did enjoy it but thought at the time that perhaps Atwill was reaching a bit far in some of his speculative tangents but overall I felt that his core idea was parsimonious and sound. This was before I discovered Robert Eisenman which really blew my hair back.

The allegory excuse is the best apologism the religious has, since it's what have kept the bible runing in the shelves, and not the original intention, which is not puting metaphors, it tried (and failed) to explain the world and the history of it

Unique except for literally all the others.

@@sciptick I'm certainly willing to note what is being said here if we can agree on the fact that Homer's subjects were generally mythological, whereas the NT is logging into real events of real people. The Jewish officials who were set over the indisputable residents of the land had no issues with the historicity of Jesus. They intentionally had him executed. Don't belabor the point. Greek civilization is itself a primary witnesses to these events which steered it into its future.

​@@saludanite Except Jewish tradition set the historical Jesus in the First Century BCE under the reign of Alexander Jannaeus.

Don't act foolish.

Is (ironic mode: off) the new /s?

I find their argument pretty convincing 🤷‍♀️

@@imcarlabee It's a joke. Undoubtedly, there's mimesis in the gospels, probably not all directly from Homer (or Virgil), since his epics were already engrained in the culture, but in general I agree with McDonald (except on the Q hypothesis). My comment was hinting at how some Jesus historicists usually refer to Dr Carrier's minimal historicity theory, and how Dr McDonald meekly changed this attitude towards Richard Carrier. Not giving his theory its deserved credit is ironic because McDonald's work provides support for mythicism, and he has suffered the same sneer as Carrier. As for Dr Miller, I agree on most his conclusions in "Resurrection and Reception in Early Christianity". He's not a mythicist, but has the guts to say that Carrier's theory is worth being at the table. And that's remarkable in so biased a field as NT studies.

@@thescoobymike Oh, I forgot about /s tag!

@@maatjusticia3954 Fair enough! I think for him to be cagey about Dr. Carrier's conclusions is a little dubious, given that Carrier is so generous in both directions with his estimate. That being said, I think it is worthwhile to take McDonald's criticisms on their own merits, independent of any other silly positions he may hold.

And it was the 10th Legion, and the demoniac was found on the Galilee shore of the region of the Ten Towns, or Decapolis.

"Might" is working overtime and weekends there.

@@RustyWalker If you read them, it would be eligible for early retirement.

I read the passages, and it's post hoc rationalization at best to say these verses might be about nuclear weapons. My favorite Bible passages right now are 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1. They're parallel verses recounting the same events. When David is moved to do the census of Israel. In Samuel it says it was the anger of the LORD that moved David. But in Chronicles it says it was Satan who moved David to do the census. It's a piece of evidence showing that satan (or hasatan, the adversary) wasn't a person, but a title. Like a court advisor who would purposely disagree or give scrutiny, or something like a prosecutor. An inoculation against yes men. I think the character of the Christian Devil was derived from this 'adversary" title along with demons of evil in older myths. Like Ahriman, "The Opposer" from Zoroastrianism. Makes phrases like "devils advocate" feel very circular.

He used to be a lot,but there was a falling out.

That sucks. Over money? Political opinions? I had a bunch of friends drop me as soon as I had different opinions about the Bible. A lot of Fundamentalist Christians are incapable of maintaining friendships with people who have different opinions. Just shows their immaturity. Oh well, life goes on.

Bob Price went full blown MAGA and then some. Shame because I have some of his bland he is a dynamite biblical scholar. He just has a compulsion to inject his weird Fox News mindset into discourse that doesn’t have anything to do with that.

Dr. Bob said some racist shit then doubled down on it. It was sad times.

@@jennifersilves4195 oh wow, like what?

I applaud your acceptance that these are allegories and I believe you are mostly correct when you indicate that parallel allegories are telling the same story but with different metaphors. The people behind this system of allegory were identified by Plato as Sophists and in Plato's Protagoras they are described this way: “Now the art of the Sophist is, as I believe, of great antiquity; but in ancient times those who practiced it, fearing this odium, veiled and disguised themselves under various names, some under that of poets, as Homer, Hesiod, and Simonides, some, of hierophants and prophets, as Orpheus and Musaeus, and some, as I observe, even under the name of gymnastic‐ masters, like Iccus of Tarentum, or the more recently celebrated Herodicus, now of Selymbria and formerly of Megara, who is a first‐rate Sophist. Your own Agathocles pretended to be a musician, but was really an eminent Sophist; also Pythocleides the Cean; and there were many others; and all of them, as I was saying, adopted these arts as veils or disguises because they were afraid of the odium which they would incur.” Note that Homer is the first on the list and that this list ends with the statement "...there were many others..." If this description is taken seriously, Sophism was a dominant influence in the ancient world and undoubtedly created the "world" metaphorically described in Plato's Allegory of the Cave. The Sophist Protagoras is elsewhere described in Plato's Theaetetus this way: “In the name of the Graces, what an almighty wise man Protagoras must have been! He spoke these things in a parable to the common herd, like you and me, but told the truth, his Truth, in secret to his own disciples.” And a clear "parallel" is found in the Gospel of Mark 4:32-33: "With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything." This is actually a deliberate allusion designed to provide context for the surrounding allegory and it is clearly intended to link Jesus to Sophism. Also, if the literal meanings of these two statements are accepted, it suggests that the Sophists employed a system of allegory to hide knowledge from the masses, but would share the knowledge of how to decipher this allegory with their "disciples". Furthermore, it is historical fact that Christianity was created during a period known as the Second Sophistic. For me, the connection between Christianity and Sophism should be obvious, but I have the same problem as the people promoting the Mimesis theory, in that, those that have already formed their opinions are generally unwilling to take alternative theories seriously. The connections and reality behind all this becomes even more apparent when a serious effort of decipher the Sophist allegories is undertaken. The actual history of early Christianity is far different than most could ever imagine. It is a tragedy that people can be so close to blowing the whole thing wide open and still not see the value of just taking one more step in a certain direction.

@@warrensmith8161 Sophist was Plato's code word for "I don't like him", and saying they hid their doctrine behind allegories was his genteel way of calling them liars. I am no Platonist, but mystery cultists are no better.

@@sciptick You have the wrong context so you cannot see. Plato was a Sophist and he was only pretending to be against them. (Socrates was his "veil".) In reality his "unwritten doctrines" (true context) together with his writings served as a primer for the Sophists.

Have you read Preface to Plato?

@warrensmith8161 great response, I wasn't aware of those quotes. Homer as I understand it means "hostage" and in the ancient world when a nation/ city state was conquered they wouldn't kill the elites they would instead take all the educated people back to their home city (ie the Jewish Babylonian exile). I've always fancied Homer to be one of these elites from a conquered territory.. just a theory.. my teacher told me long ago that the mysteries have never been penatrated, mostly due to the many blinds that exist.. a blind being a deliberate over emphasis on something designed to bring someone to a false conclusion, but I agree that more people should strive to know and ask the right questions. Perhaps someday soon, the mysteries will again see the light of day, but for now, remain hidden.. The greatest knowledge man has ever possessed isn't for everyone and would sadly be abused were it to fall into the wrong hands but it's all there if someone has eyes to see and ears to hear and heed the words inscribed on the walls of Delphi "know thyself and you will know the universe and the gods"

One example: the parable of the demon wandering and returning to its home. This sounds like Ulysses the wanderer in a way, but Ulysses expels (well, kills) his wife's suitors and cleans his house. What if he had expelled them, cleaned his house, and then left his house unattended? The suitors would have returned like the demons, but brought more and the problem would be worse. Is this a real way in which Mark is counting on knowledge of Homer for his parable to make the most impact?

Many videos discuss this. It is "The Law of Hospitality". It is also not the only mention of this theme in the Old Testament.

Traveling storytellers worldwide always had compelling motivation to promote divine commands for hospitality to total strangers. And invent them, where missing.

​@@davidfrisken1617 The Law of Hospitality was also a law in ancient Greece, whether statutory or unwritten, and it's known as ξενία ( _ksenia_ ) and the word's passed down to us as "xenial".

I think Mark is a deconvert from Pauline Christianity.

@@user-uo7fw5bo1o What branch then did he convert to and what would convince me that he is a christian at all by the time of writing? See Mark's Jesus hates scribes. And yet obviously Mark loves to be a scribe. In the parable of the sower he tells you that John, Jesus, Peter and the disciple did not leave a word. But Paul did. And when it comes to writing, then Mark selects for being a poet, more than that.

Hi Dave, I think Dennis argued for a “homerization” of Q’s exorcism bit, thus transforming it into what we find in Mk. In other words, if we subtract the Homeric elements of Mark’s Demoniac scene, we end up more or less with the Q tale.

@@RichardMiller-ym5jc Thanks for explaining. I went back over it and I see what you are saying. The transitions in the discussion are not easy for a newby to follow. I like to think that underneath the embellishments there is something really there. I wish we had "Q". How do you explain this to someone new to the Bible?

@@davechristensen8299 well, as you see there, removing Homeric mimesis does not scrub away the legendary and folk-belief elements. You end up in a world swarming with demon encounters, miraculous healings etc, even if considerably more modest in natural violation. It’s interesting for those hoping that world is a genuine representation of reality itself what that implies (not saying this is precisely what you are getting at). They would prefer to live in a world beset by demons with one hero who seems to be the only one who is effective in addressing them, though he’s long left, to the bare mundane world we otherwise believe we see and know… something like hoping the Ironman movies depicted reality, but then getting with the hero the myriad of destructive villains etc. 😀 I think a man Jesus existed in time and space, but that he was not the object of earliest Christian narrative.

@@RichardMiller-ym5jc Thank you for the conversation. I think a lot of Pagan beliefs have been inserted into Jesus' mouth. I am a descendant of secret Jews who functioned in the Christian Church. We did not buy the Greek philosophy nor the Roman mythology that has been inserted into the (Hebrew) Bible. Jesus himself didn't like demon hunting. He said if you cast out a demon, seven more will fill their place. In other words "double negatives" don't bring positives. Waring with the negative just brings more negative. But, that's what Fundamentalist specialize at. "It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness." I myself have had more than several medical miracles for myself and for those I prayed for. Not usually. But definitely many times. Doctor validated. Cancer disappeared with x-rays to prove. Many others. I prayed for a dead girl, and she woke up and started playing with her brother, all at once. These times that I connect with God (infinite good) are more beautiful and transcendent than I can explain. There is more to life than the 5 physical senses can show us. American Indians could do these things and other more spiritual cultures too. I credit being with them for some of my moments of connecting with The Sacred. No religion owns it. It's all of our birthrights. And doctors can tell you that these things happen. So....why couldn't Jesus have done some of them if I could? It is the words of Jesus that open the windows to heaven for me. There is more to reality than our eyes can see. Even quantum physics tells us this. Jesus most certainly was not God, and there is no such thing as a Trinity. It discourages me how most of "Christendom" worships a Trinity that is nowhere in the Bible. Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father, BECAUSE THE FATHER LIVES IN ME AND I LIVE IN THE FATHER". Jesus never said he was God. The Infinite Source of all Creation lived in Jesus, and Jesus tried to show us that we can be in union with the Source of our spiritual being too. If Jesus was not from heaven, or if he did not have a special experience with the Infinite One, then he was the best psychiatrist that ever walked the earth. He understood things like the necessity of forgiving those who hurt us, because if we don't find a way to free ourselves of past hurts, they own us and control us. Jesus gave us a powerful and passionate kind of love that I cannot find in any other religion nor culture. He saved MY life! Thank you for helping us get the bullshit out of the Bible. It is troubling that it is there, and it seems like a monumental job to clean it up. With not much time left. But we have to do it!

@@RichardMiller-ym5jc Thank you for the conversation. I think a lot of Pagan beliefs have been inserted into Jesus' mouth. I am a descendant of secret Jews who functioned in the Christian Church. We did not buy the Greek philosophy nor the Roman mythology that has been inserted into the (Hebrew) Bible. Jesus himself didn't like demon hunting. He said if you cast out a demon, seven more will fill their place. In other words "double negatives" don't bring positives. Waring with the negative just brings more negative. But, that's what Fundamentalist specialize at. "It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness." I myself have had more than several medical miracles for myself and for those I prayed for. Not usually. But definitely many times. Doctor validated. Cancer disappeared with x-rays to prove. Many others. I prayed for a dead girl, and she woke up and started playing with her brother, all at once. These times that I connect with God (infinite good) are more beautiful and transcendent than I can explain. There is more to life than the 5 physical senses can show us. American Indians could do these things and other more spiritual cultures too. I credit being with them for some of my moments of connecting with The Sacred. No religion owns it. It's all of our birthrights. And doctors can tell you that these things happen. So....why couldn't Jesus have done some of them if I could? It is the words of Jesus that open the windows to heaven for me. There is more to reality than our eyes can see. Even quantum physics tells us this. Jesus most certainly was not God, and there is no such thing as a Trinity. It discourages me how most of "Christendom" worships a Trinity that is nowhere in the Bible. Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father, BECAUSE THE FATHER LIVES IN ME AND I LIVE IN THE FATHER". Jesus never said he was God. The Infinite Source of all Creation lived in Jesus, and Jesus tried to show us that we can be in union with the Source of our spiritual being too. If Jesus was not from heaven, or if he did not have a special experience with the Infinite One, then he was the best psychiatrist that ever walked the earth. He understood things like the necessity of forgiving those who hurt us, because if we don't find a way to free ourselves of past hurts, they own us and control us. Jesus gave us a powerful and passionate kind of love that I cannot find in any other religion nor culture. He saved MY life! Thank you for helping us get the bullshit out of the Bible. It is troubling that it is there, and it seems like a monumental job to clean it up. With not much time left. But we have to do it!

Finding parallels is not how mimetic cognition worked in antiquity. Mimetic play was a literary commonality in Hellenistic composition. It was as much about contrast as about similarity. MacDonald and I both read classical Greek dialects.. So, no translation. The mimetic cues discussed in the video, however, did depend on arguments from Greek language.

@@RichardMiller-ym5jc ok, i ll ask gpt to find me greek text of odyssey and translate it into english. What Mark should i find to see if they match? (Word for word just like in video). I m totally on a train that gospels were written in greek originally, because Philo from Alexandria was reshaping Old Testament, in greek i suppose. And quotes from hymn of Zeus in book of acts 17 28, and stoic philosophy about soul, will and everything else (that could be found in trees and rocks) will be found in gospel of Thomas 77. And famous p52 in greek too. But people like hebrew bible, it would be hard to sell mentioned parallels, because "ofcourse you see parallels, you've translated aramaic/hebrew into greek in such manner, and now it match..."

@@knkn5049 , there are a number of world-class translations of the Odyssey (I like Lattimore). The video was not attempting a word-for-word parallelizing. It was showing story sequencing and thematics. The dialects are so different that a word for word parallelism would be impossible. Consider that the Odyssey was composed 800 years prior to Mark. Greek had change wildly over that long stretch of time.

Maybe there really was a naked caveman among the Gerasenes who was possessed by demons.

That might be so, but they are clearly promoting an agenda and seek to bury the historical Jesus who apparently was a rebel (Mk 15:7) and a trafficker of young men or at least a lover of males (Mk 14:51-52) (a capital crime in Jewish Law at the time).

Fictions _mostly_ involve fictitious people. You would need evidence otherwise to conclude that anybody in a fiction is based on somebody real. We have evidence that the Peter in the gospels is modeled after somebody who existed. We have no evidence that he did anything described in the gospels. We have no evidence the Jesus in the gospels even existed, but we can anyway be certain at least most of what they say he did did not happen.

​@@Akio-fy7epJesus never existed. This argument over his historicity or his non existence still remains is bcse there are millions of people who follow this story even today. Why are there no such arguements over, so to speak, Zeus, Apollo, Horus etc etc? Because there are no followers to defend them. Jesus is MYTH.

We are arguing that modern theological / religionist readings of Mark are radically decontextualized from classical antiquity, that is, the cultural world of the Mediterranean Hellenistic urban centers. Of course “the point” of these texts looks wildly different to modern religious readers who share none of that context. Mark did not contain the hallmarks of biography from that period, that is, .. it contained too much myth and literary crafting and focused on the run-up and tragedy of his execution.. nothing about any other chapter in his life.

The message is the same even when these scholars were already on mythvidosn

MacDonald has published several books on these topics, all heavily and meticulously footnoted. My book explores mimesis as well, but more from a cultural-linguistic lens. So, this is all heavily researched and documented (and peer-reviewed).

Homer predates Maccabees, so I'm going with that story too is based on Homer.

Right.. common everyday sorts of tales in ancient texts?? I don’t think so.

You will have the same problem if a movie quotes another movie today. There will be similarities and differences. The question is if the readers would have recognized the story. I can't proove that Boromirs death in Lord of the Rings is a citation of the Chanson du Roland simply by reading the text. And yet it is highly likely given the fact that JRR Tolkien was baptized in european literature and uses tropes of myths and legends quite frequently. Is West Side Story an homage to Romeo and Juliet? Can you proove it from the text alone?

It would solidify that the story is a story, and a mythical one at that.

Careful: as you scrape away, you will find nothing underneath. 'Mark' has his Jesus say mostly just Paul's opinions as found in his letters. 'Matthew' and 'Luke' had their own, often contradictory opinions, to put in their Jesus's mouths. The dozens of other gospels reveal other churchmen's attempts to get their opinions made official.