The Essential Problem in Evangelicalism

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Douglas Beaumont

Douglas Beaumont

Күн бұрын

Catholics have a relatively easy time distinguishing primary essential doctrines (aka orthodoxy or dogma) from secondary non-essentials. Evangelicals do not have it so easy. Although they attempt to build their list of essential beliefs using the Bible alone, they necessarily import their own beliefs into the scriptural data creating a circular standard for Christian orthodoxy. Here I will critique the work of popular Evangelical apologist Norman Geisler, who wrote much on this topic and who never ceased to defend the idea that his views reflected the historic Christian faith.
0:00 What are the Essentials of the Christian Faith and Why Do They Matter?
2:21 Catholics vs. Evangelicals on Distinguishing the Essentials
3:28 Norman Geisler on the Essentials of the Historic Christian Faith
5:00 The Historical vs. Logical Method for Determining the Essentials
5:44 Problems with Geisler's Logical View
6:23 Geisler's First Essentials List
7:13 Geisler's Second Essentials List
8:01 Geisler's Third Essentials List
8:26 Does the Bible List the Essentials?
9:28 Gospel Essentials that Geisler Does not Include (Burial and Appearances)
10:27 Salvation Essentials that Geisler Does not Include (Baptism and Communion)
12:03 Evangelical Essentials Beg the Question
13:25 The Church's Actual Method for Determining the Essentials
14:23 Is Evangelicalism Part of the Historic Christian Faith?
15:40 Evangelicalism's Circular Reasoning on the Essentials
17:13 Conclusion and Comment Policy
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Christian Research institute (Norman Geisler Article) Pt. 1 - www.equip.org/articles/the-es... (or www.equip.org/PDF/JAE100-1.pdf)
Christian Research institute (Norman Geisler Article) Pt. 2 - www.equip.org/articles/the-es... (or www.equip.org/PDF/JAE100-2.pdf)
Conviction Without Compromise (Norman Geisler) - amzn.to/30ifkAK
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All Nations (Dr. Matthew Stevenson) - • It Is Written | Dr. Ma...
Apologetics Index (quoting Dr. Alan W. Gomes) - www.apologeticsindex.org/158-...
Christian Research Apologetics Ministry (Matt Slick) - carm.org/doctrine-and-theolog... Coalition (Kevin DeYoung) - www.thegospelcoalition.org/bl...
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Пікірлер: 279
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
I welcome interaction whether in agreement or not. However, comments that do not interact with the content of this video or that merely attempt to push one's platform may be deleted and the repeat offenders potentially blocked.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
@YAJUN YUAN Catholics don't really use the "essentials / non-essentials" categories. There are settled dogmas as well as doctrines which have some "wiggle room" because they have not been settled. To be fully in communion with the Church, one must not deny a dogma.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
@YAJUN YUAN No relation to evidence base, but simply to what the Church has defined (through various means) as dogma.
@pawollatounenmoun
@pawollatounenmoun Жыл бұрын
Do you think Jimmy Akin’s Teaching With Authority might be a helpful tool in this discussion?
@Alfredo8059
@Alfredo8059 Жыл бұрын
@@pawollatounenmoun , Jimmy Akin's authority as a Catholic comes from his faithfulness to Catholic Magisterium.
@wendymitchell8245
@wendymitchell8245 Жыл бұрын
@@pawollatounenmoun no he is really poorly educated.
@PerkPerkins
@PerkPerkins Жыл бұрын
I have a very close friend who has been a hard core protestant pastor and missionary for almost twenty years. I converted twenty years ago after being a lifelong Catholic basher. I am the last person I ever thought would be Catholic but I am so happy I found the true church after my own research and study. My friend visited Italy this year and had an enlightenment at St Peters Basilica. Although he hasn’t converted he is researching now also. Please pray with me for his conversion. Love your channel and great videos.
@awuriefnejqwjmnwn4960
@awuriefnejqwjmnwn4960 Жыл бұрын
Did he convert by now?
@wendymitchell8245
@wendymitchell8245 Жыл бұрын
You convert to Jesus not a church. Look up the real history of the Popes, there are even videos on the bad Popes .Then look at the qualifications for church leaders Titus 1 :6 -.,as none qualify. See their history of murdering any who did not agree. It is nothing like Biblical Christianity.
@thesolaraquarium
@thesolaraquarium Жыл бұрын
St Ambrose: ‘Man doesn't find the truth. Man must let the truth find him.’ I began my religious journey studying Catharism and tarot cards. Within 3 months I was Catholic. The Cathars believed that this earth was created by the devil. The devil never created anything. Everything he has he stole from God. Sometimes God uses stupid things to lead us to him. Protestanism is not stupid but it is only a half-truth. My conversion happened in front of a statue of St Teresa of Avila. I did not know who she was at the time nor that I had been converted that morning. I worked it out later.
@wendymitchell8245
@wendymitchell8245 Жыл бұрын
@@thesolaraquarium Protestant means protester and is not a religion .It covers more than Christian it has no one belief. Some are the truth others are not. The Roman church fell from the truth after the 2nd cent. Compare the teaching in Acts to the Roman rituals .Study the letter to the Romans .
@markellis5008
@markellis5008 2 жыл бұрын
"But if it's true for me, and not for you,"..... Truth can be whatever they want it to be if they use their our own definitions. The more I read about the Catholic Church and church history, the more I fell in love with Catholicism, because I'm convinced it the true faith handed down from Christ and the Apostles, and the Church.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah its funny that SES teaches people to recognize things like this and then is surprised when it's alumni become Cathoilc. ;)
@robertopacheco2997
@robertopacheco2997 2 жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont What is "SES"?
@Alfredo8059
@Alfredo8059 Жыл бұрын
@@robertopacheco2997 , SES son las siglas de Southern Evangelical SEminary. "Over the course a single decade, dozens of students, alumni, and professors from a conservative Evangelical seminary in North Carolina (SES) converted to Catholicism" . del libro Evangelical Exodus
@jaypeck
@jaypeck Жыл бұрын
While that sounds reasonable, how do you pick sides in the schism of 1054?
@OzCrusader
@OzCrusader Жыл бұрын
@@jaypeck It is easy and simple for me. Prior to the great schism of 1054 there was only one Pope who held authority over and united the entire Catholic Church. This line of succession from Christ and the Apostles was unbroken. The orthodox broke from the Catholic Church and the Pope and fractured into many separate autocephalous groups, who wilfully bicker and separated themselves from each other - no different to protestantism. There is only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church under the Pope, Vicar of Christ.
@joan5856
@joan5856 Жыл бұрын
I converted to the Catholic Church at a very early age. My family were Church of England, and were not practicing Christians. My first day at school I heard of God for the first time when the Sr.Otteran told us of the Creation I was full of excitement and went home full of the experience. It never left me and I was received into the Church when I was 18. Now at 88 I am receiving instruction on the Internet and programs like this.
@wendymitchell8245
@wendymitchell8245 Жыл бұрын
Being received into the church is not being converted to Christ . Most who are received into the church are not Christians . My mother and grandmother were members of the Anglican church ,like most in their day ,out of tradition . Then one day they went to meetings held by an Evangelical and heard the true gospel for the first time .That is what Peter preached at Pentecost to the Jews .You have killed your Messiah who died for your sins and now you must repent and then be baptised. Then you will receive eternal life. JESUS BEING THE SON OF GOD WAS THE ONLY SINLESS MAN WHO COULD TAKE THE PUNISHMENT FOR OUR SIN. We are all responsible for his death as we have all sinned ,and fall short of the glory of God .He calls all to repent of our sins ,and follow him ,no matter what he cost. It is far more than agreeing with a list drawn up by the Roman church which fell unto heresy in he 3rd century.
@wendymitchell8245
@wendymitchell8245 Жыл бұрын
@po18guy I was explaining the gospel for those of you who are not believers ,you should try to understand ,as your eternal future is at stake.
@wendymitchell8245
@wendymitchell8245 Жыл бұрын
@@MasterKeyMagic That is correct ,as Jesus said my sheep here my voice and follow me. That is not the same as saying your works save you, as well as the death of Christ. We cannot contribute to our own salvation .
@wadefowler890
@wadefowler890 2 жыл бұрын
Doug, I am so happy to have found you. I returned to the Church 20 years ago, and have never looked back. Thank you for defending the Truth.
@LeslieKlinger
@LeslieKlinger 2 жыл бұрын
Excellent explanation of what makes a circular argument.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you! I appreciate your comment because comments like it are appreciable. :)
@jacobwoods6153
@jacobwoods6153 2 жыл бұрын
The only critique I have of you for this video is that you need to make more videos like it! Lol.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
That's likely. ;)
@0135172990
@0135172990 2 жыл бұрын
Among the all recent Catholic apologists, you are more logic and historic, thank you. I am a student of philosophy, so I can detect your presentation.
@terrylm235
@terrylm235 Жыл бұрын
Excellent subject selection and execution! Catholic Church, Mother of Christians and Mother of the New Testament.
@Adam-fj9px
@Adam-fj9px Жыл бұрын
You have said what I have thought for years but never been able to put into words, thanks!
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
You are so welcome!
@dianesilva901
@dianesilva901 2 жыл бұрын
This is a wonderful presentation. Love learning more about the church teachings
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
Great thank you!
@simplydanny
@simplydanny 2 жыл бұрын
Great content, after watching a few of your videos, I’ve decided to subscribe. This video has basically summed up my journey to the Church.
@0135172990
@0135172990 2 жыл бұрын
So, the doctor's list is nothing more than a vicious circle of Sola Scriptura. Therefore, I rather stick to my cradle faith : The Catechism of Catholic Church. Sir, Douglas , you are simplifying the logic system of philosophy which is very complex but you are make it practical. Thank you so much. God bless your ministry.
@hglundahl
@hglundahl Жыл бұрын
17:08 I highly agree with your endorsement of the Historic Method first. I note, it does not limit the essentials to already defined dogma, if it did, no new dogmata could be added. It also, as seen by the Nestorius case, allows people to take a stand on what they, based on tradition, feel as essentials, even if there is not yet any definition of it being so.
@ramongitamondoc3491
@ramongitamondoc3491 Жыл бұрын
I have been hearing a lot from my Protestant brethren that Protestants actually have unity in the essentials. Your presentation clearly shows the inadequacy of this reasoning. Thanks!
@johnyang1420
@johnyang1420 Жыл бұрын
Take RCIA and check it out
@AlbertoKempis
@AlbertoKempis 2 жыл бұрын
Very good explanation Doug. I always hear this protestants trying to define the essentials. But every protestant's denomination has its own list of essentials. This is a big problem for protestants. How do they know if their essentials are the correct one since they all believe sola scriptura they can't appeal outside scripture and scriptures doesn't list the essentials. It all boils down to their interpretations.
@TheBlinkyImp
@TheBlinkyImp Жыл бұрын
It's interesting how you say 'protestants have this problem' as if they're a special class. Catholics and Orthodox also have their own essentials, which differ from Protestants. How do they know their essentials are correct? They have the exact same problem. If I rely on a baptist pastor to tell me what the essentials of faith are, that is practically speaking the same as relying on the Catholic magisterium. Either way I have to make a choice myself, based on my own understanding and intellect, on who to believe. You'll argue "No! The Catholic teaching can be traced back to etc etc," but that's again trying to convince my intellect.
@0004voltz
@0004voltz Жыл бұрын
@@TheBlinkyImp you're spot on.
@Alfredo8059
@Alfredo8059 Жыл бұрын
@@TheBlinkyImp , there is a big difference since neither Catholics nor Orthodox believe Sola Scriptura to be a biblical teaching. Protestantism means religious individualism from their very beginning (XVI century). Catholic/Orthodox Church believe a visible and authoritative Church. Only an authoritative visible Church can determine the essentials. Rather, the (Catholic/Orthodox) Church calls councils. From the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, the Church has dealt with disputes by bringing the leaders of the Church together and, after prayer and discussion, making a pronouncement that settles the issue. So the problem is for Protestantism to prove Sola Scriptura to be a biblical practice and to prove the Church as invisible and non-authoritative.
@TheBlinkyImp
@TheBlinkyImp Жыл бұрын
@@Alfredo8059 You're avoiding my point entirely. How do you explain the Council of Trent, which is held as authoritative by Catholics but not by Orthodox? Obviously, I have to make an individual decision whether to believe the Catholics or the Orthodox here. But that's apparently impossible, since I don't have an infallible authority to tell me what I am required to believe like Catholics do. You probably know this intuitively, but there have been plenty of Protestant councils. They also call together particular people to determine doctrines and beliefs. Lutherans do this, Anglicans do this, Methodists do this, local non-denominational churches do this. The Catholic church is not special. Sola Scriptura was put forth as a way to criticize Catholic beliefs and practices that were contrary to the Bible, and Catholics simply doubled down - that's why a reformation was necessary. And I strongly disagree with your last claim. Sola Scriptura says the Bible is the highest authority - but the Catholic church agrees, and simply adds church authority as equally high. If one group says scripture is the authority, and the other says scripture and tradition are the two authorities, it's very much on the tradition guy to prove his point.
@Alfredo8059
@Alfredo8059 Жыл бұрын
@@TheBlinkyImp , thank you for your sincere answer. I know you have many questions, but you would not like to read thousand of words, so I better answer one a t a time: You say: "The Catholic church is not special. Sola Scriptura was put forth as a way to criticize Catholic beliefs and practices that were contrary to the Bible...". 1-The Catholic Church is special, You have never even seen the autographs (originals) of the 27 books in the New Testament. Nobody today has. The earliest copies of those books we poseess are centuries newer than the originals. Like it or not , you have to take the say-so of the Catholic Church that in fact those copies are accurate, as well as her decision that those 27 books are the inspired canonical New Testament Scriptures. You do accept her testimony as trustworthy, or else your Bible would not have those 27 books. The Bible is the only inspired writings in the Church. The Bible is a Catholic book. I have studied the earliest Christians and see they all claimed to be Catholic, they all believed in Catholic things long before Constantine. Protestants came much much later.The only Christian body that retained apostolic sussession, dogmatic unity, and universal authority and appeal is the Catholic Church. Protestants have Sola (my private interpretation of ) Scriptura plus my views alone. Orthodox Christians are very close to Catholic doctrines, but they have not had Ecumenical Councils since 15th Century. 2- Catholic beliefs and practices contrary to the Bible. You should not conflate Catholic sins (simony, selling of indulgences, abuses) and official Catholic doctrines. Scripture is the literal breath of God. Contradicting Scripture is contradicting God's Words. As a Catholic I can say none of Catholic official doctrines contradict Scripture. They surely contradict Protestant theology. Protestants claim their private fallible interpretation to be Scripture. Martin Luther read "justified through faith" and understood "justified by faith alone", addinf "alone" to the Bible is wrong because it obscures the role of charity in justification ( 1 Cor. 13:2). Protestants conflate their own theological opinion and Scripture. That is a big mistake. Blessings
@juniper5544
@juniper5544 2 жыл бұрын
For years I enjoyed listening to Hank Hanegraaff from CRI who would quote “In essentials unity, In non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.” I learned much from him. But I rarely heard him run down the actual list. I was disappointed he went Eastern Orthodox rather than Catholic; I called CRI once and asked if they had any Catholics on their staff (no, at least then). To me it seem the essentials are the Trinity, the necessity of baptism (or baptism of desire), and the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The fighting over those three alone shows me we still have a long way toward reunification. I don’t know of any Western Protestant denomination that has said, “ya know, the Catholics were right all along” and sought reunification, at least in the 20th century.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah it's easy to say, "In essentials unity," when you get to make up your own. That part doesn't seem to have changed for him, either.
@lilwaynesworld0
@lilwaynesworld0 2 жыл бұрын
Tim Staples the Catholic answers apologists was a guest on Hanks CRI show and thought he would convert to Catholicism as he seemed so close he even was convinced birth control was unbiblical Only the Catholic Church still officially teaches that. But the reality is papal infallibility is an extremely large hurdle for many converts thus Orthodoxy is the easier road when this obstacle can’t be overcome which is the main agreement Protestants and orthodox have.
@markv1974
@markv1974 2 жыл бұрын
Some lutheran and methodists returned back to communion.
@philoalethia
@philoalethia Жыл бұрын
"To me it seem the essentials are...." On what basis can we determine the essentials?
@Alfredo8059
@Alfredo8059 Жыл бұрын
Only an authoritative visible Church can determine the essentials.
@BETH..._...
@BETH..._... 2 жыл бұрын
Excellent content! Thank you Sir!
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
My pleasure!
@nardforu131
@nardforu131 2 жыл бұрын
This is useful. I send this link to protestants online. Thank you, Doug.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing!
@ofthedevil4611
@ofthedevil4611 2 жыл бұрын
Hey, I just found your channel and I can see the amount of work you put into your videos. I really like it. Keep up the good work! Edit: Just watched an episode of The Journey Home and thought, "Dang, I should google this guy" and turns out it was you! It gave me a chuckle. I do have one question, Doug. You mentioned (in the EWTN segment) that according to St. Thomas Aquinas, if one disagrees with one aspect of faith, then that person lacks faith in the entirety of God's authority on earth. My question is what is the source? I would love to read it. Thanks, brother!
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
Good to have you here! It's in Summa Theologiae II II 2-6 or so. See here: douglasbeaumont.com/2013/07/11/the-christian-faith-all-or-nothing/
@ofthedevil4611
@ofthedevil4611 2 жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont Thank you very much. Happy Sunday!
@thequeensmilitia3957
@thequeensmilitia3957 2 жыл бұрын
Glad I found your channel
@thelatineright777
@thelatineright777 2 жыл бұрын
It appears that in Protestantism, what is essentials is essential when it needs to be essential and is not essential when it need not be essential, depending on when it is called upon to be essential... Makes sense to me...
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
LOL!
@billlee7431
@billlee7431 2 жыл бұрын
Wonderfully logical presentation. By reverse engineering a subjective list of essentials, one is forced to ignore the well documented historical evidence that can be used to help one arrive at a more objective list thereby revealing their lack of basic research skills. It seems to me that rational minds would see Sola Scriptura simply does not work but still, sincere educated folks keep trying to put a square peg in a round hole.
@aberean
@aberean 2 жыл бұрын
_Sola scriptura_ may not be the way to go, but neither is _sola ecclesia._
@aberean
@aberean 2 жыл бұрын
@YAJUN YUAN I would agree with that and state that the epistemological act of creating a historical fact (eg. bodily assumption of Mary) from tradition, legend, or theology is disallowed by _sola scriptura._
@aberean
@aberean Жыл бұрын
@po18guy I don't think you understand the nuanced concept behind _sola scriptura._ There are more than two options: 1) accept the Roman Catholic Church's absolute authority on all things, and, 2) only believe it what is explicitly defined in the Bible. I could recommend a good video if you'd like.
@hglundahl
@hglundahl Жыл бұрын
1:53 It can be mentioned that .... sth can be part of the list, even without being admitted formally as part of it. Nestorius. A layman shouted "that's heresy" from the pew. Pope St. Celestine I confirmed that Nestorius lost episcopal office the very moment he had said -"Christotokos, not Theotokos"- ... and this was obviously before Ephesus.
@mercifulpianist419
@mercifulpianist419 Жыл бұрын
Douglas. I discovered you recently. Thank you for your insightful comments and faithful witness. You brought to my attention this issue. As a lifelong Catholic, all that is revealed seems essential to me. However it is a new clarity to me to realize that this debate concerning essentials is, well, essential. Thank you for this content. And thank you for your style of conversation.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
I am so glad you found it helpful, thanks!
@pawollatounenmoun
@pawollatounenmoun Жыл бұрын
Another great video. Great job!
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it!
@shadysif6220
@shadysif6220 Жыл бұрын
Proverbs 3:5-6 5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
@Liminalplace1
@Liminalplace1 2 жыл бұрын
Yes the Augsburg confession was the first Protestant essentials list. Though I'm Anglican I agree. I'd say other thoughtful Christian s if it's explained would
@Liminalplace1
@Liminalplace1 2 жыл бұрын
@@Mygoalwogel though the Augsburg Confession was the "Christian Concord" by which they have unanimous agreement at that time.
@franciscojavier8733
@franciscojavier8733 11 ай бұрын
@@Liminalplace1 Interesting comment but Calvin didn't agree with the first version of it and had to be watered down for Calvin to sign it
@mikeryan3701
@mikeryan3701 2 жыл бұрын
I would like to know when Protestants first started talking about the difference between essential doctrines (which all Christians must hold) and non-essential doctrines (over which Christians can disagree). This is, of course, very much related to the perspicuity of the Bible. Did Luther ever say/write anything about essential and non-essential doctrines? Did Calvin? What is the first recorded Protestant use of this distinction?
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
Interesting question. Luther definitely had something like the distinction in mid because he thought sola fide was a necessary component of the Gospel, but as far as the term "essential" I don't know. Might be a fun study.
@jess96154
@jess96154 Жыл бұрын
This was really well said!
@attracta2122
@attracta2122 Жыл бұрын
Some of my protestant friends look at Catholic Church and criticise the clergy they do not want to convert as a result. . I said this to them the Catholic Church is the body of Jesus. Pls don't look at the clergy just look at Jesus because his Church is the only true religion. God bless your work. I am tuned.
@glenbrisebois8239
@glenbrisebois8239 Жыл бұрын
Douglas, you dropped my jaw at one point when you mentioned stuff up to Chalcedon. Have you read Adrian Fortescue's "The Early Papacy"? When I first read it years ago, I thought it was perhaps the best long essay I had ever read. If you haven't read it, you will devour it. God bless you!
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
No but I'll check it out, thank you.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
You know what's hilarious? It was already in my (personal) library. Ha! It's #2 in the To Read stack now, thanks!
@flintymcduff5417
@flintymcduff5417 Жыл бұрын
I am the only one of my family, as far as I know, who made the break from protestant Christianity (mostly lukewarm at that), or from a cult like the JW's for a sister, to take the time and effort to actually research Catholicism. I've been one for over 20 years now.
@rhwinner
@rhwinner 2 жыл бұрын
I love your style. You should have more subs.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
I appreciate that!
@MiguelArcangel12
@MiguelArcangel12 2 жыл бұрын
Essential viewing. Thanks.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks! (And I saw what you did there!)
@StressFreeDentistry
@StressFreeDentistry Жыл бұрын
I love this. So true. From my standpoint I Christ didn’t have a set list he wanted people to believe for his sacrifice and forgiveness to be valid. According to these lists and even the creeds etc none of the apostles or the disciples would be saved since they didn’t have they Bible as it is now, the creeds had not been written and the theology had not been created yet. From the beginning there were many different beliefs and interpretations of Jesus teachings and ministry and that needs to stop being skipped over by all the so called orthodox Christian groups. Everyone believes in filling the gospel but they can’t agree on what the gospel is. This is why more is needed then just the Bible and the historic creeds because they are incomplete and late. Catholics use the authority of their priesthood body to judge and rule on these matters. In our church we believe a living prophet can receive guidance to judge and rule on these matters which is similar but different. What we both agree on though is that the Bible alone has proven to not be clear enough to have different people or groups come to the same conclusions so therefore it can not be purported to be the final authority.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
Orthodoxy does not work like that. Councils were called as errors became prevalent enough to require an official response. The more important difference, then, sounds like it is which church is historically connected to the one Jesus founded and which one was invented 1800 years later by someone claiming to speak for God.. I think some groups have taken the idea of tradition and misunderstood it to be something that can just be made up on the fly by someone allegedly speaking in real time for God despite being contrary to the historic faith. But that's also the best way to start a cult.
@jordanmiller3927
@jordanmiller3927 Жыл бұрын
Excellent video
@rhwinner
@rhwinner 2 жыл бұрын
First thing that struck me is the lack of the word, 'love' in the list of 14. Big red flag.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
That's a solid critique. Well said.
@thesolaraquarium
@thesolaraquarium Жыл бұрын
❤ yes. Jesus made it easy. 1. love God first (faith) 2. love your neighbour (works) - to serve is to love. the rest is not as important.
@hglundahl
@hglundahl Жыл бұрын
8:00 A Catholic list of dogmata from AD 800 would arguably be somewhat leaner than one from 1800 or 1950. Geisler has so to speak managed to reconstruct what CSL in a letter to a Catholic sibling group (or somewhere else) had managed to denounce as a growing yardstick in Catholicism.
@TrailandBackAgain
@TrailandBackAgain 2 жыл бұрын
Produce more content Doc. This was great and should have been posted on the sadly celebrated Reformation Day...although I don’t think evangelicals celebrate that day...anyway...more vids!
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you my friend! Will do! :)
@bahreh.7807
@bahreh.7807 2 жыл бұрын
You nailed it.
@apostolicapologetics4829
@apostolicapologetics4829 Жыл бұрын
@4:45 Would Dr. Norman Geisler accept all points of the Creed as what the creed intended to communicate when it was written? For examples, communion of saints, one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, virgin Mary, Catholic Apostolic Church, apostolic succession?
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
No he wouldn't. Right or wrong, Dr. Geisler did not hold to what the early Church meant by certain key terms / phrases. Nor, being Baptist, did he agree with the Reformers on some of their views of the same content.
@CPATuttle
@CPATuttle Жыл бұрын
Nice video. We have to get people thinking
@hglundahl
@hglundahl Жыл бұрын
12:36 Obvious example: * Evangelicals do not want to divide over YEC, OEC (day-age or gap) ... * Did not want to divide over Joshua 10 and Geocentrism * in connexion with the latter - I don't think they mostly divide over memberships in freemasonry, I could be wrong. I say mostly, there is an honourable exception. Back when I left Sweden, he was still an Evangelical. He wrote a book listing clergy and some other categories (I think even policemen, but unfortunately not medical doctors) who were into Freemasons, Odd Fellows or Templars - the latter being the more usual go to for "frikyrkliga" (roughly speaking Evangelicals), while Swedish Church (Lutheran, and the mainstream part, not the "free synod") tended to favour Freemasons. Since then, Ulf Ekman has converted to Catholicism. I appreciated him ever since back then.
@duncanwashburn
@duncanwashburn 3 ай бұрын
BTW, unless you think I have a low view of Mary, actually I think she is one of the most amazing person (women or man) of the Bible. Her faith to let God have His way in her life even though she did not understand, ranks her at least, with the likes of all those people in Scriptures that put their faith in God. I love the idea that she 'hid things in her heart'.
@craigjohnson7154
@craigjohnson7154 2 жыл бұрын
I liked your video and understand how reason and logic should or would lead anyone to the Catholic/Orthodox faith. Unfortunately a basic faith allows many to create a religion that they believe to be true. It is only if they are asked why they believe that, or show me where it confirms that in the Bible that they stop arguing. One would think that when you see the types for Christ and the Mass in the Old Testament and then Jesus completing them that any logical reasonable person would say why did I never make those connections. Or why their church history only goes back 500 years and they don’t want to know what the people within one generation of the Apostles believed?
@nickfiorello3916
@nickfiorello3916 Жыл бұрын
Succinct and logically sound… although some may not like the conclusions. And Although its’ main premise is especially relevant in these times (when Truth is touted as relative and not absolute.) Today we are awash in so much relativism that even words like “church” or “truth” are subject to faulty interpretations, and a “hey, if it works for you” mentality.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
Agreed.
@KSTrekker
@KSTrekker 2 жыл бұрын
How anyone can form a "logical" list of Christian essentials and not come away with baptism, confession of sin, and the Eucharist is beyond me. The entire chapter of John 6 literally has 100% to do with the body and blood of Christ, how do you get around this?
@wendymitchell8245
@wendymitchell8245 Жыл бұрын
The gospel is repent ,that is not confess to a priest which was not mentioned in the N.T. church.
@KSTrekker
@KSTrekker Жыл бұрын
@@wendymitchell8245 - are you sure about that? You might want to go back and read Matt. 16:18-19 The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter (Matt. 16:18-19) was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head. The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God.
@mytestimonytojesuschrist
@mytestimonytojesuschrist Жыл бұрын
@@wendymitchell8245You didn’t address the Eucharist in John 6, which was believed by most, if not all, early church fathers to be the real presence. Something most Protestants don’t recognize.
@wendymitchell8245
@wendymitchell8245 Жыл бұрын
@@mytestimonytojesuschrist Do you believe in the resurrection .?His earthly body was changed, it is no longer the same blood and flesh. It is eternal .That is why he said in memory of me .His earthly body no longer exists.
@mytestimonytojesuschrist
@mytestimonytojesuschrist Жыл бұрын
@@wendymitchell8245 In John 6 he says his flesh is real food, and his blood real drink. That doesn’t sound like a symbol to me.
@freddyjflores6278
@freddyjflores6278 Жыл бұрын
Seria genial que refutadas a unos evangélicos que debaten con Catolicos. Puedes verlos debatir con Padre Carlos Mojica, José Plascencia
@namapalsu2364
@namapalsu2364 2 жыл бұрын
Geisler only accept 4 councils (Nicea I, Constantinople I, Ephesus, Chalcedon). Anyone can tell me what's his or any other protestant's problem with the other 3 councils (Constantinople II, Constantinople III, Nicea II)?
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
Nicea 2 had to do with veneration of icons which many Protestants think is idolatry. Really not sure on the other two unless there were some more minor issues. Honestly it may just be a handy way to number his agreements haha.
@AndrewofVirginia
@AndrewofVirginia 2 жыл бұрын
Constantinople 3 included statements affirming some version of papal authority, even claiming that Pope Agatho was the voice of Saint Peter himself preserving the apostolic faith. The bishops at the council actually refered to Agatho's position as the chair of Peter, seeming to affirm in the Roman bishop a much higher view of a successive, authoritative office than most protestants would be willing to agree with.
@shlamallama6433
@shlamallama6433 2 жыл бұрын
This is awesome Dr. Beaumont, I have one question: how do we Catholics define what a Christian is? We don't seem to exclude Protestantism and Orthodoxy from Christianity, yet they don't affirm all the essentials which we call dogmas. So does their baptism make them Christian and all the theology implied by that? i.e. the Triunity of God, Christ's and the Holy Spirit's deity, and whatever else?
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
Excellent question. Yes, the Catechism makes it clear that by virtue of Baptism one becomes Christian and that is an indelible mark that cannot be undone. However, the unity baptism should bring is wounded in numerous ways: "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin: "Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers." "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity." (Catechism 817-819)
@shlamallama6433
@shlamallama6433 2 жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont Thank you for this response, I appreciate this. I still have some further questions that I've been thinking about with relation to this (TLDR, see bottom). It sounds like the Catechism says someone is Christian if they are justified by faith at baptism. If after that they become atheists are they still considered Christians? What if they deny the Trinity, the Virgin birth or the inspiration of scripture? The heart of my question is: is there anything you need to believe to be called Christian whether you are Catholic or not? Is there even an actual metaphysical status of "just Christian"? If so, is it those who have faith hope and charity, some possibly being outside of the visible bounds of the Catholic Church (but not the invisible bounds). Also, if the virtue of faith mandates that one believes the dogmas of the faith, how can a protestant be said to have faith and therefore be a Christian if they deny the Assumption? Maybe the theological virtue of faith isn't an assent to a list but a habit by which one assents to that which one knows that God has revealed. So my questions are: 1. Are there certain things one has to believe in order to be Christian? 2. Can a protestant or orthodox be said to have faith? 3. What is the definition of the faith which we are justified by, which I presume is the theological virtue of faith?
@cantrait7311
@cantrait7311 2 жыл бұрын
A simple question to ask Protestants Q. How do you know what the Christian faith is? A. I know because the Bible tells me.” A. Who told you that’s where you should go to answer this question? Who told you? Did Jesus tell us the Bible is our rule of faith ? No, he didn’t. Jesus said that He was the final authority. He frequently evoked His own authority over against that of the Old Testament, “ You’ve heard that it is written but I say to you”. Then when he ascended into heaven , he gave that interpretive authority to his apostles. He said, “ I have all authority you therefore go into all nations and make disciples, whoever hears you hears me, whoever rejects you rejects me. And then the earliest Christians understood that as referring to the Apostolic succession of bishops. At. Ignatius of Antioch in the 2nd century quoting gospel of Luke dais we have to hear those who Christ sent as Christ himself namely the bishop. So the question is “ how do you know what the Christian faith is? The answer , you know by looking to the rule of faith Christ gave us . He gave us the teaching church the magisterium of the teaching church to answer that question. Just ask a Protestant “ Did Jesus tell us the Bible alone? You can search the scriptures from cover to cover you’ll never find Jesus saying if you have a doctrinal question go to the Bible alone, NO he pointed us to the teaching church.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
@YAJUN YUAN The standards depend on the sacrament - each of which has a proper form (words/meaning/intent) and matter ("stuff"). For baptism, the trinitarian formula must be said and it must be done using water. The exact manner in which the water is used is not as important. For the Eucharist the words are Christ's words of institution and the matter is wheat bread and wine.
@Wdlpsr
@Wdlpsr Жыл бұрын
@@cantrait7311 Be still and know
@omarkamal5017
@omarkamal5017 Жыл бұрын
I’m not Catholic, in fact I’m very strongly against it, but props on using the term “begs the question” correctly
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
This comment begs the question as to why you're against Catholicism. ;) LOL!
@DarkAngel-cj6sx
@DarkAngel-cj6sx Жыл бұрын
Set politics aside and learn about your church history
@freddyjflores6278
@freddyjflores6278 Жыл бұрын
Me duele escuchar como los evangélicos no dicen constantemente salgan de esa falsa iglesia, y hay una batalla entre apologetas que uno dice algo luego vienen otros y refutan y es como una persecución, i would like to help us, and fort more our faith Thank you,
@duncanwashburn
@duncanwashburn 3 ай бұрын
Prior to minute 14:30 Douglas you were speaking about the councils that cleared up orthodoxy. You mentioned the deity of Jesus. You did not mention teachings like the perpetual virginity of Mary, and imo, wisely so. The deity of Jesus clearly is found throughout the NT, but the NT is silent on the perpetual virginity of Mary and quite to the contrary. One might wonder why the Scriptures is so silent (in the affirmative) on an issue that seems to be so important to the Catholic Church.
@deion312
@deion312 2 жыл бұрын
Make an in depth video on creation and evolution.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
You mean like this? :) kzfaq.info/get/bejne/es2lhqSo18_dg3U.html
@duncanwashburn
@duncanwashburn 3 ай бұрын
Just prior to minute 11:42 Douglas you mention the saying of Jesus as found in John 6 about eating the Body and drinking the Blood of Jesus as essential. If it is so essential of the Catholic Church, then why, during any mass I've ever been to, that only the priest actually follows this 'clear' teaching essential of Jesus?
@JonathanSaxon
@JonathanSaxon 10 ай бұрын
Hi is belief in amillennialism Orthodox or can one be a premil Catholic. Thx.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 10 ай бұрын
It's not heresy as such, but certain versions/tenants of some pre-mil views have been declared off limits. The basic problem is that Dispensationalism has sort of taken over Pre-mil and gets confused by some writers. For details, see: www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/millennium-and-millenarianism.
@stephenpeppin5537
@stephenpeppin5537 Жыл бұрын
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:42,43
@abrahamphilip6439
@abrahamphilip6439 2 жыл бұрын
Protestantism ( sunk in Sodom and Divorce) out of a rebellion in Christian names, underscored in Gnosticism (1 John 2 :19) unto its many thousands of sects where one does not agree with the other, denotes the many parts that the body of Jezebel ended up torn by dogs, incidentally the source of the prophesied Apostasy theologically in the leavens of the Faith.
@shadysif6220
@shadysif6220 Жыл бұрын
Sodom? I'm sorry, but which "church" allowed their priests, to sodomize altar boys on a regular basis? Only to cover it up, by moving predators to another parish? Physician heal thyself.
@abrahamphilip6439
@abrahamphilip6439 Жыл бұрын
Individviduals or what they do are not counted as the Church, A Church goes by its Cannons & the Cannons consider Sodom as sin,, so the Church does not conduct sodomic marriages , unlike the Protestant Churches that conduct sodomic marriages Nevertheless there have been many inflatrators into the Catholic Church in order to create scandals & try destroy the Church --- Protestantization of the Church,, they are mainly of the ones mentioned in 1 John 2:19,
@greggregory4636
@greggregory4636 2 жыл бұрын
🙏
@jamesstrohl2016
@jamesstrohl2016 Жыл бұрын
It is rather simple. Hear, believe, confess, repent, be baptized for the remissions of sins, and be faithful until death. Christ commanded this.
@churchoftheformerdaysaints
@churchoftheformerdaysaints 2 жыл бұрын
I'm wondering how much you exclude protestant denominations from salvation, what the reasoning is, and how much you think grace for errors in knowledge play a role in salvation. Thank you.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
No Catholic has the authority to exclude any person from salvation because God alone knows everything required for a just and merciful judgment. A completely ignorant satanist may have a better chance of Heaven than a knowledgeable but unfaithful Catholic! The Catechism (817-819) summarizes the Church's position on Protestantism this way: In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin: "Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers." "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."
@churchoftheformerdaysaints
@churchoftheformerdaysaints 2 жыл бұрын
​@@DouglasBeaumont Interesting! So the Protestant churches have become, by the grace and power of Christ, little Catholic Churches with regards their roles as facilitators of salvation? I fully believe in what those catechisms are saying, by the way. I think Protestantism was profoundly wrong when they split from Catholicism, but I also believe that about Christianity's split from Judaism as well (on those same merits). What would you say would be a good road to reunification?
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
@@churchoftheformerdaysaints Judaism had miracles to validate it's place as the faith God truly led. Jesus Christ fulfilled the prophecies and purposes of Judaism and proved it with even greater miracles. When the Jews rejected their Messiah, Christianity came into existence as a separate faith. That is nothing like Luther's rebellion from his own Church. I think the road to reunification will be for all Christians to recognize the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The problem is the Protestant paradigm has individual Bible interpreters serving as their own authority. So rather than identifying God's Church and coming under its authority, they judge churches according to their own. So, sadly, I don't think it can happen under the current circumstances.
@churchoftheformerdaysaints
@churchoftheformerdaysaints Жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont I don't think there's any real evidence that the apostles meant to start a new religion, or that the Jews ever were downgraded from an authoritative position over God's people. We see in Acts the apostles worshipping at the temple throughout the book, the argument being made is always "this is what the scripture of the Jews believe," in Acts 21, Paul attempts to make a sacrifice for 5 people, in Acts 23, Paul calls the unbelieving High Priest the ruler of God's people, in Acts 24, Paul claims to be a member of Judaism, and to have never said anything against the temple, in Acts 28, Paul claims to have never said anything against the traditions of the Jews, or the Jewish people. In Romans 2, Paul says that a righteous person is identified as a Jew at heart, in Romans 3, he says the Jews have every advantage because to them belong the scriptures, in Romans 9, he says to the unbelieving Jews belong the scriptures, the promises, adoption, and prophecy, in Romans 11, he says that unbelieving Jews who are enemies to the gospel are loved on account of their descent from Abraham, in Ephesians 2, he claims that gentiles are no longer separated from Israel, and so on. The apostles didn't start a new religion. The only argument to make is that the church in the following centuries split from Judaism, but then you can't say it was because they rejected Christ, because if that were true, then the split would be referenced in the Bible around the time of... Well I dunno, when Christ died? When Paul was persecuting? When Paul died? What does it mean that "Judaism rejected Christ"? When did that happen? And what's the evidence that it was the catalyst for a split? So ultimately we will rejoin Judaism as well. You think the way the divide is healed is by a critical mass of individuals deciding to rejoin the Catholic church? Or you think a critical mass of denominations will be the healing factor? Or maybe a mixture? Maybe conversations between people like us will begin to heal the divide, eh? ;)
@churchoftheformerdaysaints
@churchoftheformerdaysaints Жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont I do think it is sad though. Christians should really love one another, and be united as Christ is with the Father. I hope the Lord begins to close up that divide soon. The Catholic - Orthodox one seems to have begun to heal though, so that's really cool.
@TheBlackToedOne
@TheBlackToedOne Жыл бұрын
You lay your arguments out well, but I am still conflicted. Not on the material itself, but the two groups you are comparing. Allow me to state here I do not cite you specificially as it seems to be a common base assumption throughout all Catholocism and its apologists, and that is what I believe to be inaccurate lumping of all protestants together into one big group. There are many denominations each w/ their own unique charecteristics, some greatly noticable while others not so much. I can tell you right now as a conservative Lutheran there are some noticable differences between the Lutheran and evangelical theologies. It's like visiting a single state in the US and then making a specific generalization about the entire country from that one location. It would be like going to Arizona or New Mexico and making a generalized statement that the entire US is a flat, hot desert based on that one observation. While maybe true for the vast majority of these states, there are countless other states in the US that would contradict that statement. So why say in 20,000 words what can be said in 100? My apologies. My point is that it appears to me you are comparing mainly Dr. Geisler to Catholicism under the statement of comparing the entire protestant world to Catholicism, and this is not correct. As a conservative Lutheran, I can tell you the church I was brought up in does not align 100% w/ Dr. Geisler's observations either. In addition, we subscribe to the sacraments as well to include the eucharist and the miracle of transfiguration which aligns this protestant denomination w/ the Catholicism. So to make the blanket statement that protestants are wrong would be in itself wrong as there are many of us protestants who hold many beliefs and teachings that align perfectly w/ the catholic teachings. This is a long post so if you've made it this far, I thank you for your time, patience and understanding. God bless and keep fighting the good fight.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
Good points for sure. This is one reason why I specified Evangelicalism in the title, but yes it is easy to slip into "Protestants." However, in this particular case I don't think it is as illegitimate as it can be made to sound. I DO think [all] Protestants suffer from the same problem with regard to the essentials (perhaps in different ways). At bottom, there are SOME things that can be said of all (legitimate) Protestants and some of those things continue to be theologically problematic. But for sure a more nuanced discussion needs to take place if we are to get down to specific Protestant denominations. it's hard not to say everything in every video, but that's KZfaq for ya! :) God bless you and thanks for the thoughtful comment!
@perryrobinson7841
@perryrobinson7841 2 жыл бұрын
Copts don't accept four councils and neither to the Assyrians. Just to buttress your point.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah but for a while they didn't count right? ;)
@glennlanham6309
@glennlanham6309 Жыл бұрын
are you in the Charlotte Diocese Doug?
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
No. but I have several friends in that area. :)
@glennlanham6309
@glennlanham6309 Жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont I figured since you taught there...
@Wdlpsr
@Wdlpsr Жыл бұрын
It seems to me that what is essential is the things a Christian has to know and or do in order to receive eternal salvation. You will have to pardon my southern backsliding Baptist upbringing, but I was raised in the belief that every Christian denomination agreed on these things. I understand what I am saying doesn’t fit with the content of this video and the logical vs historical views of what is orthodox. Biblical interpretation that can be debated by biblical scholars till we’re all left scratching our heads. What is at the heart of this topic is at least in my opinion is not debatable. What is it to be Christian and what the purpose of Christianity is. Is there really a divide between Catholics and Protestants to the extant that one believes the other will not receive salvation and be doomed to hell? For example I’ve never took communion, but if I understood right this is a Catholic orthodox/essential sacrament, so am I doomed? If this is something I can forgo and still have a place paradise then is it really essential? Please be candid with you’re answer. Thank you
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
I think you're correct in your assessment of the "standard line" and in some ways I agree it is true. The problem is that the way in which it is true remains too vague to be helpful in real life. Even if we define the essentials as " the things a Christian has to know and or do in order to receive eternal salvation," finding those things becomes a real difficulty between groups that disagree on what those things are - and so we end up right back where we started. (Further, even within single groups that DO agree on the list of essentials, these nearly always require qualification depending on knowledge level and intellectual ability, upbringing, etc.) So while all may agree on what "the essentials" are in the abstract, the concrete list remains a problem - and so does any theory dependent on knowing them. Case in point: The Catholic view of the Eucharist. :) Because Jesus specifically said we do not have life if we do not eat his flesh and drink his blood in John 6:53-54, the Church affirms that the Eucharist is necessary for salvation. HOWEVER - while we are bound by the sacraments, God is not. He can save the thief on the cross without baptism and he can save a backsliding Baptist if they are not considered guilty for their forgoing the communion. ;) All judgeable actions require full knowledge and free will - so for one who does not understand the requirement correctly or rejects it due to non-culpable ignorance, God may save them anyway. But that is not something the Church can guarantee.
@Wdlpsr
@Wdlpsr Жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont Thank you, that was very helpful.
@aberean
@aberean 2 жыл бұрын
Ahh, the problem with lists... Even the New Testament has conflicting lists for certain things (eg. 1 Corinthian 12, Romans 12)! The problem is that any essentials list keeps growing, never shrinking, and the people building the list are fallible. What are we to do? Do we just concatenate all of the lists together? I disagree with the premise that a detailed list is required, and I certainly object to putting the Catholic Church in a position to declare what constitutes orthodoxy. For example, the four Marian dogmas are required belief. In the past, not believing them condemned one to hell. Now however, Protestants who don't believe them live as "separated brethren". That feels much better, but still less than welcoming. Put another way, what information did Zacchaeus know about "the list" when Jesus told him "Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." Likewise, what information did the thief on the cross know about "the list" when Jesus said to him "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." One of my favorite pieces of art is a plain block of wood engraved with the inscription: "The man on the middle cross told me I can come." That about sums it up! I think we should be out of the business of declaring who is in, or who is out of the Kingdom of God. Let's leave that up to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Amen!
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
Since the King of Kings and Lord of Lords gave us the Church to teach truth, I think it's pretty important.
@aberean
@aberean 2 жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont I agree, as long as it doesn't lose sight that it is the body of Christ, with Jesus Christ as it's head. It is not one organization. It never has been.
@AndrewofVirginia
@AndrewofVirginia 2 жыл бұрын
Scripture does give precedent (even explicit direction) to excommunicate or "purge the evil one from among you" (1 Cor 5:13), even speaking of this as delivering a man up to Satan. The reason for all this is for the salvation of the man in grave sin since he has defected from the faith. So we know with certainty that Scripture presents us with a module of church discipline where gravely sinful behaviour provides a boundary line for being "in" or "out" of a state of salvation as well as the church.
@aberean
@aberean 2 жыл бұрын
@@AndrewofVirginia Just keep in mind that our Lord said "For the one who is not against us is for us." (Mark 9:40 ESV) I think that there is room to "purge the evil one from among you", but, even so, we are called to be gracious to those who oppose us even to the extent of loving our enemy.
@AndrewofVirginia
@AndrewofVirginia 2 жыл бұрын
@@aberean hmm. Interesting choice of scripture to use. Of course there is also Matthew 12:30: "Whoever is not with me is against me." Merely to say there are tensions in scripture here, so we probably can't compromise a clear passage because of a cryptic one that seems to have a lot of countervailing scriptural evidence.
@armmkm
@armmkm Жыл бұрын
The Apostles Creed outlines the core, Early Christian essentials. The Nicene-Constantinople Creed further expands the theological thought evident in the Early Church. I look at what the Eastern Church and the Coptic Church of Egypt (founded by Mark) has in common with the Catholic Church. If there is agreement then I accept it as evidence of a unified Church that later fractured (The Church of Rome. If I see differences between the Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Churches, then I discount the claims made by Rome on that particular issues-indulgences, as a quick example. Many are unfamiliar with the Early Church history. Bishops were and are, equals amongst equals. There is no superiority of one bishop over another. In Acts 15 we see James is the head of the Church in Jerusalem-the Mother Church. God chose Jerusalem to be the seat of His world-wide rule-not Rome. The largest cathedral in the world is an Eastern Orthodox structure known as Hagi Sophia (currently considered a mosque thanks to Erdogan). Rome does NOT rule the world today, the Roman Empire collapsed, and the Church of Rome filled the political void. Where is Scripture is a pope allowed to maintain armies? Recall Peter was told to put away the sword on the night Judas betrayed Jesus. Have you studied the Spanish (Catholic) Inquisition? One cannot white-wash sin. God sees all. Suggested reading: The Didache, an early Christian instruction manual. This oral teaching, later put to pen, pre-dates the Gospels. If one presumes Markan or Matthian primacy, these were penned somewhere in the AD 30-40 time period. The Early Church was known as “The Way.” The Didache, known as the “Teaching of the Twelve” does not mention any gospels because it preceded them. The Church was born on Pentecost, and for thirty-plus years relied on oral instruction before things were written down. The Didache teaches about the Way of Life and the Way of Desth. See: Aaron Milavec, “The Didache.”
@jnanashakti6036
@jnanashakti6036 Жыл бұрын
It's weird you brought up Orthodoxy but then went on to clarify Christianity within Catholic and Protestant framework. No mention of Christian Orthodox beliefs, including that Catholicism is considered heretical?
@josephssewagudde8156
@josephssewagudde8156 Жыл бұрын
Your approach is not like any other. You are dismantling protestantism at it's core.
@hrvatplavi7167
@hrvatplavi7167 2 жыл бұрын
Opus Dei!
@JamesDunhamMiller
@JamesDunhamMiller Жыл бұрын
Jesus Saves?
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
This actually illustrates a huge problem. Many times the only things Protestants can call essentials are only simple statements which can have numerous meanings (and which themselves need to be understood correctly).
@tomrudolsen6235
@tomrudolsen6235 Жыл бұрын
GOD SAVES WHOEVER HE WANTS NO MATTER WHAT WE PEOPLE THINK ....AND THAT'S A FACT
@cleartruth-
@cleartruth- 2 жыл бұрын
Mattew 24:36 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows,+ neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. Mattew 23:8-10 8 But be not ye called teachers. for one is your Teacher, even Christ. 9 You are all brothers. And call no man father upon the earth. for one is Father, which is in heaven.10 And be not ye called masters. for one is your Master, even Christ.... “YOU must not let people call you ‘leaders’​-you have only one leader, Christ!” (Matthew 23:10, The New Testament) With these words, Jesus made it plain to his followers that no man on earth would be their leader. Their one Leader would be heavenly​-Jesus Christ himself. Jesus holds this position by divine appointment..
@hectorramirez8475
@hectorramirez8475 2 жыл бұрын
Peter Matthew 23:8 is the only verse in the bible that tells us no to call any man father. But we have many that say otherwise. John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” Acts 7:32 - 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob.' Moses shook with fear and would not venture to look. Paul will go as far as to say, "he is our spiritual father." 1 Corinthians 4:15-16 15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you to imitate me.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
See my latest video on Jesus as a False Prophet!
@0004voltz
@0004voltz 2 жыл бұрын
What is the church?
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
This is answered in the Catechism (750-870).
@0004voltz
@0004voltz 2 жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont Yeah that's the definition that fits the RCC, but simply put a church is a group of belivers.
@Chamindo7
@Chamindo7 2 жыл бұрын
@@0004voltz What about a group of bespleens or belungs or bebladders? *grin*
@0004voltz
@0004voltz 2 жыл бұрын
@@Chamindo7 you tell me.
@Chamindo7
@Chamindo7 2 жыл бұрын
@@0004voltz Well, guess we can stick with just... "belivers" since the liver is definitely required for life.
@duncanwashburn
@duncanwashburn 3 ай бұрын
Around and before minute 8:22 Douglas, you are making a big deal about your old mentor's list(s) of essentials. I'd disagree with his list. Imo, Paul the apostle's list would start with the Bodily resurrection of Jesus (1Cor 15). Again, imo, ALL other doctrines, essential or non, must flow from that Truth. As Paul said, if there's no resurrection from the dead and in this life only we are blessed to follow Jesus (admittedly my paraphrase), we are of all people most to be pitied. Another reason I'd disagree with the doctor is that one needs to be a Bible scholar to understand his whole list but, imo, most of those saved by Jesus do not understand the list. I can understand the resurrection of the Body of Jesus, at least 'that it happened' even if I don't understand all the 'how's'.
@neilrangel2075
@neilrangel2075 2 жыл бұрын
My understanding is as simple as this.. To be a true Christian.. One needs to be a member of the Mystical Body of Christ.. Incorporated into only through an actual water baptism or a baptism of blood.. Martyrdom..desire and invincible ignorance will not help.. The Roman Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ.. It is the only Church of Christ.. The Scriptures are ours and ours alone.. For the Catholic Magestrium alone to interpret.. .. There is absolutely no salvation outside the Catholic Church under any circumstances. All outside cannot and will not be saved. Just like the Ark of Noah.. All outside perished.. So too.. All outside the Catholic Church will be lost
@dnzswithwombats
@dnzswithwombats 2 жыл бұрын
Which of your two popes do you follow as they disagree?
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont 2 жыл бұрын
Catechism 846-848: 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
@IanGrantSpong
@IanGrantSpong 3 ай бұрын
I believe that the essentials are easy. We don't need to list them because neither Jesus nor the Apostles listed them. They taught them. Jude summarized the essentials as "the faith once for all delivered to the saints." Why is that so hard for Catholics? Oh, because they added to the faith once for all delivered. They added man-made dogmas that neither Jesus nor the Apostles taught. That's what Protestants have also done. Catholics get some things right. Protestants get some things right. Orthodox (eastern and oriental) get some things right. None of us gets everything right. But, if we focus on what Jesus and the Apostles taught, we're on the right track. If we add to that councils OR Protestant reformers, then we have added to the essentials. If we persecute those who believe differently to us, we have sinned. Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants have sinned in this regard. Yet, the essentials are available to us all, and many do believe in them, Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox.
@wendymitchell8245
@wendymitchell8245 Жыл бұрын
Cor 15 Starts with the gospel which WAS delivered unto you .The Roman church has ignored this point ,that it was ,past tense ,delivered. Because they do not believe in Sola scriptura, but think they can add to and change the prophetic Apostolic message by their own traditions, which they claim to be from the Apostles . The worst of these changes came when Theodosius made the Roman church the only legal religion . He said any pagans who would not join the church would have property confiscated . This changed the gospel from belief and repentance to join this church or you will be punished ,filling the Roman church with unbelievers. This was about Roman Empire unity not Christianity. From then the church claimed to be the only true church ,this developed into only we can interpret the Bible as we are the church that was founded by Jesus ,ignoring all the churches in the Empire . Then the Popes developed starting with the first idea of the authority of Peter being past to Rome . This was first mentioned by Stephanus and built on, with Leo claiming to be Pope . He asserted primacy over all bishops and it was acknowledged at the council of Chalcedon 451. Later Gregory sent Augustine of Canterbury to get the British to accept him as head Bishop . Dionoth the representative of the church said we have our own bishops and refused .Later the king of Kent was deceived by a fake miracle and accepted the Pope ,splitting the church . The reformation did not start with Luther. The 9th cent. false decretals were forged to free the Roman church from interference of the state . Forty forgeries included letter claiming to be from ,Sylvester, Gregory ,and includes a false claim that Constantine said the Pope has supremacy over all churches .From this time the Roman church called others heretics and from the 12th cent. persecuted the Waldensian church almost to extinction by the 17th cent. It should be obvious that any church legalizing torture and burning people at the stake is not the true church .Not to mention the wicked lives of so many Popes .
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
Sounds like a problem for Theodosius, not the Church.
@wendymitchell8245
@wendymitchell8245 Жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont You cannot be serious . You think allowing ,or forcing unbelievers into the church is not a problem for the Church. The Roman church in Apostolic times was just like all the others when it started ,but its position in Rome corrupted it .Then it became a secular organisation with a veneer of religion .It is only a real church if the members are genuine REPENTANT, BELIEVING Christians , as they are the church not a building or organisation. What does Paul say in 2 Cor.6:14 .be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers .v.17 come out from among them . If a church has a large number of unbelievers you are told to leave, that is if you cannot ask them to stand down as members and not to take part. The problem was they were ordered to join . This becomes clear down through history when you look at the corrupt leadership You made the biggest mistake of you life when you just believed what they told you ,without checking everything with the N.T. The N.T. teaches believe and repent from sin ,then you can be saved from judgement as Jesus took your punishment. Heb.9:12 but by his own blood he entered in ONCE into the Holy place ,having OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION for us. This is why we can know we have salvation ,He has paid the price . Then the believer grows though the word of God which was brought to us by the Apostles ,what Justin Martyr called the memoirs of the APOSTLES , AS JESUS SAID THE HOLY SPIRIT WOULD BRING BACK TO THEIR MEMORY EVERYTHING HE TAUGHT THEM . This is the bread of life ,His words ,which reveal the mind of God.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
@@wendymitchell8245 Sigh.... stop getting your history from Jack Chick.
@wendymitchell8245
@wendymitchell8245 Жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont That says everything about your American education. In G.B. we study European history not Jack Chick comics. You should take your eternal life more seriously. It makes me wonder if your claim to believe is genuine, as you dismiss real history ,which you should know, as if it was a joke . In my town there is a memorial to the last people burnt at the stake, for saying they did not believe in some point of R.C. doctrine that was not in the Bible. You can find the laws of Theodosius online.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
@@wendymitchell8245 Is there a memorial to Thomas More as well? Hmmmm. And I believe the last to be burned at the stake was sentenced by the king - not the Church / Inquisition - and it was for rejecting the Trinity and all three creeds - hardly "some point of R.C. doctrine that was not in the Bible". In any case, Church Law (which changes with needs / understanding) and Dogma are distinct things and salvation is not dependent upon the former.
@jbchoc
@jbchoc 2 жыл бұрын
Stop stating the obvious, you are upsetting people's feelings.
@philoalethia
@philoalethia Жыл бұрын
It seems that whatever actually is essential to Christianity would be static, though our discernment and understanding of these things might change. That is, we might think something is essential and later discern that it is not, or vice-versa. We also might grow in understanding of some particular essential. There is often a presumption that whatever was believed earlier was correct and that any subsequent alterations can only be non-contradictory developments. However, this is only probable--not certain. There are countless beliefs held by our ancestors that we now know to be false. This is just the human experience, so the fact that the list might change or evolve isn't necessarily the problem that you make it out to be. You criticize Evangelicals for appealing to Scripture, but it makes sense to appeal to Scripture and other historical documents (including early councils) to attempt to discern essentials, for it would be the apostles and other immediate witnesses to Christ who would know best what he taught and what it meant. This is largely what various Christian groups attempt. The fact that different people or groups might draw different conclusions through this process is not some uniquely-new problem with Protestant Christianity. It has been going on since the time of Christ, and is just as present in Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy, etc. If you want to claim that the list is and must be static, then the Roman Catholic Church fails here as well. The Roman Catholic list is constantly evolving with new dogmas being added in just the recent centuries (e.g., Papal Supremacy, Mary's Assumption, etc.), and those that have long been there being "adjusted." We need not bother with the attempts to read these back into history. No one in the first centuries of Christianity had to hold that the Bishop of Rome was infallible or supreme to be a Christian or as a condition of salvation--something that would later be claimed by the Roman Catholic Church. In this sense (as well as your accusation of begging the question), the Roman Catholic Church is guilty of the same criticisms you raise regarding Protestant/Evangelical Christianity. Roman Catholics who criticize Protestants for thinking of themselves as authorities that can change the list of essentials as they see fit had best pluck the logs from their own eyes first. "Why do the Church's determinations stop being counted in the 5th century?" You pretend that this is a question for which there is no reasonable answer. First, the multiplication of suspect dogmas over the centuries is the obvious answer. If a church group invents some new essential dogma of the faith in the 19th or 20th century--something that was never before then required--can it really be taken seriously? But more specifically, councils in and after the 5th century are suspect because it was there (Chalcedon) that Christianity experienced its first major schism (over a highly nuanced and questionable metaphysical definition), after which no ecumenical council could really take place. That is, the "Church" didn't agree at Chalcedon and it hasn't since. Chalcedon was followed by another gradual "Great" schism in the second millennium (largely over Papal Supremacy, the Filioque, and related matters), the various Protestant fractures in the second half of that millennium, and even other fractures in the last two centuries as the Roman Catholic Church continues to define new dogmas or amend old ones (largely a result of Papal Infallibility claims in V1, and claims in and subsequent to V2). In any event, every "ecumenical" council since Chalcedon has really been only a regional synod and lacks the presumed assurance of authority and reliability of a genuine "ecumenical" council. It is interesting that each of these schisms corresponded with a part of the Church basically fabricating some new "essential" that now had to be accepted "or else." It is further interesting that the Roman Catholic Church has its fingerprints on every single one of these sad events (this is not to suggest that anyone else has perfectly clean hands). That all being said, the Roman Catholic Church is truly remarkable and has led countless people to Christ. I just don't think that we need to promote it through misrepresentation or flawed arguments about other groups.
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
Ironically you've misrepresented my position more than once here. I'm on my phone but I'll try to clarify for you later.
@philoalethia
@philoalethia Жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont, I don't see where I've misrepresented you here at all, but feel free to point it out. I suspect that the real issue is that you turned a particular critical eye toward Protestant/Evangelical practices without applying the same level of critique to Roman Catholicism. It is a common problem and hard to avoid. I have made the mistake, myself. With respect to your video, I have asserted that you were: 1) Critical of Protestant/Evangelical appeals to Scripture to attempt to discern the essentials of the faith. You clearly were/are. 2) Critical of some of the lists of essentials that Protestant/Evangelicals produce because they differ among themselves and even the same person differs with himself over time. 3) Critical of those who drew what you indicated was an arbitrary historical line before which they accepted Church councils and after which they did not. You propose that the Roman Catholic Church is an alternative and solution to these issues that you raise. However, I don't think that the issues you raised are actually serious problems. Further it doesn't seem that the Roman Catholic Church actually resolves these issues (at least not without creating several more in the process). The list of essentials according to Roman Catholicism have fluctuated just as much over the centuries as those you criticize, and it is arguably just as guilty of begging the question (i.e., creating an evolving list that is merely an expression of its own current beliefs) as anyone. That last issue might actually be inescapable for everyone. That is, any list someone or some group creates is necessary the list of things that he/they think are important given their experience, beliefs, etc. I'm pretty sure that these are among the points you clearly raised throughout the video. I will watch/listen to it again to confirm. If these are misrepresentations, however, I am certainly open to clarification or correction. [Just watched a second time. Yes, these are among the criticisms you raise. I don't see how I'm misrepresenting anything here. Disagreeing with your premises, conclusion, or rationale is not misrepresentation, but disagreement. The only difference is that I'm pointing out how these issues are natural/human and that the Roman Catholic Church is really "guilty" of the same or similar. I can understand and sympathize with the desire to find a way to reject such observations, but I don't think the "you are misrepresenting me" assertion sticks.]
@duncanwashburn
@duncanwashburn 3 ай бұрын
Minute 12:40 Douglas you accuse protestants of circular reasoning. Don't you as a Catholic apologist and the Catholic Church reason often in a circular manor? Why is the Catholic Church correct, even though the Scriptures teach something different, like about the perpetual virginity of Mary (Matt 1:25 and verses about her children, the siblings of Jesus). Seems to me it often 'boils down to' because the Catholic Church teaches infallibly on this and other issues. How do we know the Catholic Church teaches infallibly? Because the church tell us so. We all reason circularly at times. Please take the speck out of your eye before you take the log out of mine. (yes I probably have logs in my eyes and you have specks.)
@mmbtalk
@mmbtalk Жыл бұрын
Please don't just quote part of the verse of 1 Peter 3:21, "baptism now saves you" why not mention that it doesn't remove our dirt, but just done out of good conscience - please be more honest!
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
It's not dishonest to quote part of a verse - removal of dirt has nothing to do with the point. Of course people get baptized from a good conscience - why else would they?
@tomrudolsen6235
@tomrudolsen6235 Жыл бұрын
Yes .. .JESUS SAVES .....AND GOD SAVES ALSO NON CATHOLICS .....THAT IS A FACT .....
@0004voltz
@0004voltz Жыл бұрын
When the papist church changes the essentials list it's not a problem (Like papal infallibility), but others shouldn't
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
There was a time when Judaizers were not heretics - but after the Council of Jerusalem, they were. (Acts 15) There was a time when Arians were not heretics - but after the Council of Nicaea, they were. There was a time when Nestorians were not heretics, but after the Council of Chalcedon, they were. (repeat for the next 15 centuries . . . ) If you are an orthodox Christian, then you don't disagree with the Catholic Church's principle - you're just inconsistent.
@0004voltz
@0004voltz Жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont what does this have to do with the essentials of faith charging?
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
​@@0004voltz I may have misread you, but it seemed that your response was a sarcastic comment alleging that the Church has made illicit changes in dogma, with papal infallibility as an example. Since that teaching was codified in an ecumenical council, then the principle behind such a position would be that conciliar doctrinal decisions equal illicit changes in dogma. So I showed show how that principle would fail to account for orthodoxy because that's pretty much how it always happened.
@0004voltz
@0004voltz Жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont I will put it like this every denomination has it's list of essentials, this is why your list is different from the EO, the prot doesn't see your list as valid and vice versa so you're on equal footing. In accordance with your list who is a Christian and who is not?
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
@@0004voltz OK well then you understood my point. When Protestants claim that they only disagree on non-essentials, that claim is false. :) As to who is / is not a Christian - I would draw the line at Christian baptism and (later) at orthodoxy. It is not my place to judge one's salvation - as I do not know a person's mind and heart. However, a knowledgeable and obstinate refusal to believe what the Church has defined as dogma would pretty much remove someone from the "Christian" classification by definition.
@aleczemouli2905
@aleczemouli2905 Жыл бұрын
Christianity says "Jesus is God ". Jesus says in John 17:3 " and this is eternal life,that they may know you (Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent ". Paul says in 1 Cor 8:6 "yet for us there is only ONE GOD,THE FATHER". ... Looks like christianity doesn't agree nor follow the Bible....
@DouglasBeaumont
@DouglasBeaumont Жыл бұрын
Looks like you don't understand theology or the Bible. Assuming that God is only one person begs the question and is contradicted by numerous scriptures - you don't even need to read beyond the first chapter of several books to see this (e.g., Jn. 1; Col 1; Heb. 1; 2 Pet. 1; Rev. 1). Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (Jn. 10:30). This is too obvious to be missed.
@aleczemouli2905
@aleczemouli2905 Жыл бұрын
@@DouglasBeaumont and a few verses later Jesus prays that his followers will become one with him like he is one with the Father. So obviously Jesus is talking about one in purpose, not in substance. Maybe you're the one who needs to study more the "theology " ...
@0135172990
@0135172990 Жыл бұрын
Without the essential the essence is a waste land, it is wasted in here and here after. Where is the Holy Eucharist in his work, Dr. Geilser? Thus, his corpus of writing is disconcerted.
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