For more discussion like this, click here: kzfaq.info/sun/PLaUso8l3U_deFzvtwRwRpANmvSY-7dh5W

Never before has a pair of sweater vests been so righteously intimidating

As one might expect, allowing Pastor Wilson to explain his position clears away a ton of the smoke and shade thrown about by his opponents. Great conversation, gentlemen.

This was excellent. While I've never been a detractor of yours, I haven't been quite clear on some of your beliefs; but now I am fully clear. You did a great job of explaining things, Doug, and I am very encouraged as a result. May God continue to bless the work He is doing in you and through you, to His eternal glory. Peace to you in Christ Jesus, brother.

I wish these two would discuss issue together more often. Great men!

I've never heard Wilson say anything heretical. I've heard many reformed people speak negatively about him for what i believe were misunderstandings. It's a shame this happened. I think most of them never took the time to really get to the bottom of things, and were too quick to jump on the judgmental bandwagon. They are Berean in theory, but not in practice. Wilson is a good man.

I'm a Reformed Baptist pastor who has read Doug Wilson's stuff off and on through the last three decades. I've often rejoiced at what he wrote and sometimes, not so much. I admit to having misunderstood him at times; however, this video is very helpful. Thank you for posting this video (a friend recommended it). I appreciate Dr. White's work in this video and rejoice at Doug Wilson's clear articulation of the Gospel.

More more!! Please... You two guys need to film more discussions... I loved listening to the discussion and I've gained so much from both of you!! What a blessing this is!

The bouncer analogy is great. I've listened to this several times and am still gleaning from it. Thank you!

Great. So glad this is still available. Both men are explaining some many truthful realities.

I have come to appreciate both these men in this day and age where there is so much compromise and deception. Thank you both for your courage.

Great conversation. I’m so glad the Lord led me to find these two. I’ve learned so much from both Dr. White and Pastor Doug, but also Apologia.

I am so glad I found this video. I am sorry to say that because of certain influences, I had had an allergy to Wilson, but in truth I had never read him or listened to him. I have since repented of this and have not only been enjoying listening to him for his wit and turns of phrase, but I am also being edified by his teaching. Much more than I was edified by some teaching elsewhere. I have always appreciated White's teaching and work, so this was a very excellent video and conversation between these two godly men of the Lord on an important topic and the clarification thereof. Thank you for doing it in order to broach this topic and iron it out. It was very clearly laid out and helpful to the thoughtful and open listener.

My KZfaq algorithm hit two nails with one head here. Please more of these two together.

Somehow, when I listen to Pastors Wilson and White, I just feel smarter. These guys are the current titans of Evangelical Christianity. As in the 80s when E F Hutton would speak, when Pastors Wilson and White speak, you had better listen as something important is about to be said. May God continue to bless them both mightily!

Again I say, it is unfair the way Rev. Wilson has been treated in recent years on this particular issue. As far as I can tell, disagreements aside, he is a brother, and a good one. Social media has made us weird.

I loved Mr. Wilson's comment about "Baptists not recognizing each other at the liquor store." It was very clever and well-timed.

Awwwww such a cute ending haha. Doug is so gracious and gentle. I just don't understand how so many Reformed folk attack him and even condemn his soul. It makes no sense. He has clarified his views over and over for more than 15 years!!

Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity! Psalms 133:1

I'm so glad I watched this. It really helped clear up any misconceptions I had. I will say, the hyper criticism of Christians from other Christians, has been really discouraging. I just pray for us as Christians to be more patient and charitable to one another. After all, we are all united to Christ.

It would seem that most of this controversy revolves around folks on all sides who are unwillingly to allow the other person to define their terms...

This is like an epic Marvel crossover. I forget these guys are in the same universe.

So refreshing. This conversation did my heart well.

These are two of my favorite teachers, and I think they bring out the best in each other. They should absolutely do more shows together!

Two of my favs, great discussion!

Here we have together two of my most admired thinkers of America today. They are both fighting the good fight, and I have great respect for their work of bringing Truth to all good thinking people of not only America, but to the whole world. I thank you both and pray for your needs and success in all you put your minds and hands to. God Bless Yunz.

I am a Reformed Presbyterian, and my husband has told me that part of the Federal Vision includes ensconcing the ceremonial law in civil law. This sounds to me like it must be a misunderstanding. I’ve read and heard enough from Rev. Wilson concerning the gospel, to be very doubtful he would like to see the ceremonial law reestablished as civil law.

I have been listening to James White since I got saved over 10 years ago. I’ve listened to countless debates, dividing line podcasts, etc. james is not just a safe resource, he is truly a hero of the faith. He is responsible for bringing me from a reformed dispensational (John MacArthur ) eschatology, to now a postmil partial preterist position. He has a video explaining his transition and mentioned Gary Demar, Ken Gentry, Greg Bahnsen, and Doug Wilson. Since then I have immersed in their videos available on KZfaq and have grown so much as a result. I also have been listening to James B Jordan’s revelation series, I looked on the puritan page and find all kinds of unfounded negative things said about James jordan and Doug Wilson… I’m glad I’ve listened to Doug and James Jordan before I went to the Puritan Page otherwise I may have missed out on the great value these brothers bring to the table.

After two weeks of arguing with the "Christmas is pagan" Arminians left wing of the ignorant church on my KZfaq channel.. it's such a blessing to be refreshed hearing sound polite discussions by two of the churches best workmen. Merry Christmas!!

Love it. Thanks for the dialogue.

Hi All, The only comment I have to make about Dr. James White's interview of Pastor Wilson is that it was a respectful interchange of ideas among erudite individuals. Their conversation proves we can all disagree with each other on certain issues in a graceful and polite manner. God Bless Everyone, QP

Can we have a Douglas Wilson & James White show?

Seeing my heros grow old is very sad.. but I'm blessed to have heard of them and blessed by them. May God continue to bless them.

This was very encouraging. As a pastor who has dealt with criticism, I rejoice.

Beautiful friendship. Especially for how much they know they can debate secondary things at length. They’re people, not a list of stances.

After about ten years break from the Federal Vision I can confirm that Douglas Wilson still has the same theology now that he had then. He is a Calvinist evangelical plain and simple.

“…and baptists are those who don’t recognize one another in the liquor store” 👀 ouch!!! Burnnnnn! Gotta love Doug for his upfront-ness 😂😂😂

I’ve also heard Christian’s pronounce an anathema on Wilson based on hearsay. Absolutely appalling how people can be.

I am brand new to Doug Wilson. I don't know what all the fuss is about. There was not one thing he said here that I disagreed with. It was 100% orthodox

I remember hearing about the evils of Federal Vision a decade ago, I could never figure out what it was supposed to be, but didn't spend much time on it. A year or two ago, I sat down and tried to figure out what it was, and the controversy still didn't make much sense. I read the statement, it seemed ok; a few things I disagreed with, but nothing that stood out as heretical. I looked at the counter-arguments, and it followed the pattern, well the statement is ok, but this one guy in this one book said this one thing that was bad, therefore the whole thing is bad. Then in this video, Doug said that Trinity Foundation wrote an article against the conference, and it all made sense to me. Those guys always seem to go around trying to put down other Christian groups and alleging some apostasy in various people, especially VanTillians for some reason. They aren't as bad as some, but makes sense of the conclusion I had arrived at that the federal vision "controversy" was a bunch of sound and fury and not much more.

Doug makes me want to switch from Baptist to Presbyterian, particularly in light of what we are seeing in the false religionists now running the SBC.

I'm one of the ones this helped. (Per the ending comment) I had heard of the negative view towards Doug and the "federal vision" but hadn't actually heard anything that I disagreed with in the many teachings of his that I've listened to. I do disagree with his Presbyterian view of the covenants, but I find tremendous value in what his/ that model produces. Therefore from a practical view, I see the benefits. So if federal vision is simply, covenant vision then I'm tracking with what he's trying to do. I appreciate Doug and his faithfulness to Christ in all that he does. Thank you!

Very good, it's just a shame that this type of calm and intelligent conversation did not mark the discussion from the outset. To many people divided over these issues that were often a matter of semantics. God Bless and thanks.

Great discussion!

This was very enlightening! I'd like to thank James White for his amicability and willingness to listen to Doug and get the real story behind the irresponsible accusations made by others who don't understand the issue and refuse to take the time to learn it.

Though I'm a Premill Dispe, I find myself agreeing on many points with brother Doug. I think it be that he's thoroughly biblical and that informs his soteriology. He and James' non sectarian spirit is refreshing and very Romans 14 - 15. None of us will have the same opinion but we all must have the same mind: "The Mind of Christ". Wake up Church, we'll need each other more and more in an increasingly hostile world!!

that was a great discussion that cleared up a lot of second-hand misinformation

My two favorites! Yes! So much awesomeness!

Thank you gentlemen. Seriously; just "thank you."

Very helpful discussion. Blessings.

Wonderful conversation!!!

"As a Presbyterian we baptize babies." (Audible Gasp from the audience)

This was wonderful! I'm so thankful for these two godly men and that I could sit in on this conversation.

Doug's answer to Jame's last question Is the definition to "turning the right cheek", has absolutely nothing to do with avoiding protecting your family or self defense and everything to do with verbal abuse and slander. Great picture, thank you James and Doug. Praise God.

This was a delight to watch.

It’s all semantics, fantastic discussion 👌🏼

Great Video!! I love you both,

Doug Wilson with James White, December 14, 2019. “I'm an evangelical. In my book from that era, “Reformed is not Enough” I begin the book with three chapters in a row of my Calvinistic bona fides, my reformed bona fides and my evangelical bona fides to make it clear that I believe in the absolute necessity of the new birth; to make it clear that I believe in justification by faith alone plus nothing. And so I've held to those views throughout this whole controversy. But I do hold in the thing that made me federal vision at all, that is I do believe in the objectivity of the visible covenant, the objectivity of the visible Church and its genuine relationship to God in Christ and that was the hinge of our debate back in 2004. That’s what we were talking about. But I absolutely affirmed that if a person is not regenerated by the Holy Spirit in turn in his heart, if he doesn't have the heart of stone taken away and the heart of flesh replacing it done by the Holy Spirit, he's lost. It doesn't matter what kind of Christian he was or calls himself. He’s the kind of Christian that is going to hell. He doesn't, he was not a member of what classic reformed theology would call the invisible church. He’s not going to be part of what I called the eschatological church. He didn't have the root of the matter in him and the root of the matter is faith; begins with faith, continues by faith, finishes by faith. And so one of the weird things in this in the troubles that come out when, if I attack the people who are just causing our civilization to disintegrate, and many of our evangelical institutions are disintegrating right along with it, as you pointed out, the trolls come out. One of the things they say over and over and over is Federal Vision; “he denies justification by faith alone”! But I don't deny justification by faith alone. I affirm it stoutly from beginning to end. I don't deny the imputation of the act of obedience of Christ, I don't deny the imputation of the passive obedience of Christ as a forensic act that God performs at the point of a of an individual's true conversion that's that happens and I've maintained that now maintained it all the way through. Now I don't get justified because of how well I'm doing in my sanctification, but... let's say five years after conversion I have a really bad week and I sin a lot in that week and on the Friday of that really bad week I get hit by a truck; I go to heaven. I go to heaven because I'm perfect in Christ. I go to heaven because I'm justified because I was declared not guilty, because of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. but I was having a bad week because I wasn't walking by faith with regard to my sanctification the way I should have been which is why Paul chides the Galatians; “are you so foolish; having begun with the Spirit are you now going to finish by human effort”, are you not gonna finish in the flesh? No. And in Romans 1 Paul says that he, quoting Habakkuk - “the just shall live by faith”, but notice the just; it doesn't say the just shall start my faith and finish by works. It says the just shall live by faith. So I'm converted on Tuesday, I'm justified by faith alone on Tuesday. On Wednesday everything I do ought to be by faith also, right? On Thursday sanctification is by faith, and it's the same faith and it's a living faith because God doesn't give any other kind.

Thank you!

Great discussion but I think I need to drink an Ale after this.

The way they break down the differences between Presbyterian and Baptist beliefs on Baptism and the visible church is very beneficial indeed

Love my brothers even though each of them are “cheeky” in their own way. The one quips about warmer weather and the other has a bouncy,breathy, giddiness over wordplay and I would give both of them a “holy kiss” and would want both of them as companions if facing imprisonments. What beautiful songs of worship in harmony would be heard from the darkness.

Good conversation.

Thank you.

Good discussion. Two godly men

The Federal Vision conversation, more than any in are age, has become an occasion for the "Truly Reformed" to engage in vigorous navel-gazing rather than join the Church of Christ in marching upon the gates of Hell.

22:00 and following, this is exactly what Paul Washer believes and teaches. Salvation is by faith alone, but faith is never alone. The true believer will demonstrate by his life that he has truly believed. I have never understood what is so controversial about this. On the lighter side, I have met Norman Shepherd myself, through one of his daughters, who used to worship at my church. I didn't know about the controversy at the time I met him. He was just the father of one of my sisters in Christ who happened to be a retired pastor and professor. I learned about the controversy much later, but I never asked his daughter about it, thinking it might be too controversial a topic for our discussion. I also have a relationship to the Auburn Heresy, as I am a native of Auburn, NY. I didn't know anything about that episode, either, until much later in life. But, I found it fascinating that my hometown was such an important player in some serious theological questions. Isn't it interesting what connections we all have to history?

On the portion at the end of this discussion related to "reading outside your camp," I am reminded at RC Sproul who often mentioned the fact that he only attended liberal schools of theology and yet was still able to come to a conservative evangelical theology. He also mentioned that he could take from many theologians who were skeptics against conservative theological positions and put together an orthodox. work. He said he'd have to be very selective. But he could draw from the real expertise to get proper positions on key issues.

lol James White's face holding in laughter while Doug compares Baptist and Presbyterian Churches to night clubs. lol so priceless!

Love these guys

Excellent video! Thinking it would be a excellent feature that each would be a guest on each other’s channel. Something like once a month. Blessings

It's so messed up that I've read comments from Calvinists online calling Doug Wilson a false prophet, unsaved, a deliberate deceiver etc. What on earth has he said or done to deserve such reckless hate??

Verry interesting love these guys

This was really really good 🙏

Well done.

I don't know why everyone says "Oh, Doug Wilson is slick. Of course he will affirm classic reformed theology, but out of the other side of his mouth he will deny it."

As a reformed Anglican I can fully agree with Wilson on his “Amber Ale” position… and I think Cranmer would agree. We are justified by Grace alone through Faith alone. Yes we have the sacraments but I don’t believe the sacraments play role in regeneration or salvation. I see my theology much closer to Wilson’s Westminster Presbyterianism than to the Roman church and I would say the same thing about the “Oatmeal Stout” people. There is not quite the difference that Wilson makes it out to be here.

Finally!! Hallelujah 🙌 very surprised James kept it together, praise God..you could feel he was on the back foot at the start, but, couldn't you just hear him going, "ohhhhh rightttt" lol 😂, getting clarity, listening instead of judgement, lol 😂 🙌 hallelujah 🙌 finally some maturing going on.. 👍

Sinclair Ferguson makes a distinction by referring to a real born again person, walking with the Lord as "Christian believer". We all know that millions call themselves as "Christians" who are no more Christian than a Muslim. Paul refers to a Christian as "in Christ" or a version of that. Christian was originally a term that was derogatory. We are supposed to be followers of Christ, ie, Disciples.

3:00 "We could have a troll contest." James White laughs nervously and then reveals that he doesn't know what means. LOL

I’m neither Calvinist nor Cessationist but I love me some Doug Wilson! And Dr. White’s vest or whatever it is at “Operation Level: Gangsta”!

i really Love these two Brothers. It Blesses me everytime they get together. Thanks and Praise be to YHWH In YESHUA for these two Blesses n Holy Brethren. Lol, Truly Regenerated (Unable to be reunregenerate) CHRISTians For LIFE 2020, Let's Do I✝.) 37 Min. in, The BODY Of CHRIST is mentioned; from one perspective. It shows major differences in Our THEOlogical (Ecclesiastical, actually) stances. i will call it a Blessed inconsistency, for now! Lol May YHWH Bless n Keep You in ישוע משיח יהוה * 👑 * KING * 👑 * יהוה * 👑 * YESHUA *

Love you both, keep fighting the good fight.

Brethren, not one time have i ever heard you two Brothers speak and not been extremely Edified. Sorry, here: i have been Extremely Edified by GOD through these Brothers Every time they talk! Thanks, Praise, n Glory be to YHWH In YESHUA .

This was great

Great discussion! Thank you for having such a candid conversation! The only thing I disagree with Pastor Wilson is the dislike of "covenant of works". The Westminster Confession of Faith uses covenant of works and defines what it is and how it contrasts with covenant of grace. As long as we have a biblical understanding of what the terms are, I don't think it's going to be confusing.

Somehow people like Doug get lumped in a category that they don’t belong. If you really listen to him mostly what he says is stuff of a believer that is doing his best to explain complex things. There are many people that will attack him wrongly while promoting unbiblical teachings by addition or subtraction. You can tell the fruit of a teacher typically by listening more to see what they say. He has fruit.

I can’t see how you could call someone a brother and never have a debate with them. If that were the case all my brothers would be strangers to me, I wouldn’t know them at all.

I still don’t understand the federal vision

Doug: "Baptists don't recognize one another at the liquor store". 😂😂😂😂😂

James white loved being able to quote that citation 😏

Can someone summarize what Doug believes and what this who degrees with him believe? I can't follow it. It sounds like Doug is just affirming the basic gospel. Who disagrees that justification is final? I'm missing something.

I love the nightclub analogy!😂🤣

I love Dr White's willingness to go in depth on all kinds of issues and debate so many people who have different views than he does. My only critique would be the way he smugly dismisses infant baptism but never has anyone to speak about it from a non-Calvinist viewpoint. He's debated with other Calvinists but Calvinists who believe in what they call "paedobaptism" are not the same as discussing it with a confessional Lutheran or even an Anglican. Every time I hear him, and other Calvinists like Dr Wilson glibly dismiss infant baptism it's clear that they're not looking at a true sacramental understanding of baptism. He can't really claim to be a theological descendant of Luther if he's not at least willing to hear it defended from a confessional Lutheran perspective.

This is like an episode of Power Rangers when the White and Green Ranger came out together.

Quarterly or better monthly episodes like this.

“Tricksy Dougsie” 🤣

This is in response to "theendisnear17"s comment (see below) [TheEndIsNear17 Thankfully Wilson is not. Because if he was, I would want no Part of Christianity. But thankfully the Apostles as Well as Jesus didn't act like him.] What a strange and terribly hardhearted comment. If you are accusing Paster Wilson of not being a Christian, my response to that would be repent for we are forbidden to judge another's salvation. As for wanting no part of Christianity if it includes the likes of Pastor Wilson, I say repent again for Christianity is not based on any human's approval but wholly on the Word of God as revealed in His Scriptures. God chooses who is elect, in accordance with His good mercies and grace, and not in accordance with the likes and dislikes of any man. Brother, please read the Bible prayerfully and seek solid mentoring at your local church. May God grant you clarity and mercy.

Here's the link to Brandon Adams original post, for those who'd like the context: contrast2.wordpress.com/2019/12/03/federal-vision-baptists/ Also, Doug Wilson's response: dougwils.com/the-church/s16-theology/heidelfog.html

25:35 "so, as Presbyterians, we baptize babies"... 😆😆😆.... White's face. Loved this discussion,thanks gents