Alex, you are by far the most underrated strength channel on KZfaq. Cheers man

I'd like to point out that the style of pressing taught by starting strength is not the exaggerated leaned back version you see in competitions, from the SS book: "Our version of the press is adapted from the Olympic press, preserving the full-body aspects of the lift but eliminating the excessive layback." And part of the press chapter tackles the mistake of pushing yourself away from the bar: "This problem usually occurs due to a loss of control over the lower back position, when the start deteriorates into a lumbar overextension instead of being a hip movement. Since extreme loaded hyperextension of the lumbar spine is dangerous, it’s best to never lose control of the back at all".

Chase’s 405 press is actually an example of the “press 3.0” aka a “double layback”, NOT a press 2.0. There’s a great article about the differences and history on the starting strength website by Carl Raghavan. The press 2.0 does not have the 2nd layback that allows you to extend and get under the bar without actually raising it. The press 2.0 therefore is still appropriate for novices and folks wanting to improve their overhead strength without the added fatigue you get with a heavier push press.

Ha! Im famous now. I figured you would edit the video after we had established the difference between the double lean back, and the 2.0 on patreon. This is gonna be controversial af.

These days, this is the just about the only strength channel I still watch. There has only been one video I did not care for and that was the one with the bodybuilders... I occasionally watch Thrall and Alrsruhe too, and Lobster Strength -- I mean Starting Strength. Bromley is the only channel pumping out non-stop solid information, no nonsense, no frills, no BS, no stupid marketing, no snake-oil, and only real weights.

The rippetoe 2.0 works for me. Locking my hips by bracing the glutes makes my lower back feel very secure. I don't lean back much though, just enough for my chin to clear the bar as I had understood that going too horizontal meant drifting the lift into bench territory. Zero back issues with this form.

The return of the whiteboard

Remember, Rip says that a trap bar deadlift is inherently dangerous because it is not stable in the sagittal plane. Imagine how dangerous it would be if a barbell could move in the sagittal plane during an overhead press!

Great question, great video and explanation. never change Bromley

I thought Rip's press 2.0 was when you bounce off of your hip flexors before you press? That's what he advocates in starting strength.

New to the channel... im impressed. Well said.

I think it's worth mentioning that Chase Lindley admitted that his 405lbs press should have been disallowed under Strengthlifting rules. Specifically because of the downward motion of the bar as he leaned back.

Thanks for directly comparing these two lifts. I first learned how to lift the Big 4 from SS, but I've recently learned that the "strict" OHP is more than a little different. First time I tried this, my front delts were clearly unable to push my current weight. Having lifted this way since last year, I feel somewhat cheated out of potential shoulder growth. It's really into my lifting career though, so I'm grateful for both the experience and opportunity to correct my OHP form while my muscle memory is still quite plastic.

Thank you for making this , and talking about how all of these presses came from rule incentives. Push press sounds good to try, strict always seemed beat me up .

My two cents: if you are aiming to develop and test pure strength, keep it strict! If you want big weights, Jerk, bent press, or “natural” press. I have practiced the Layback Press and frankly, was not good enough at staying balanced while getting underneath the bar to gain any real advantage. I also think the push press is great, and you can overload it with an “active negative” or slower eccentric to develop stronger pressing muscles.

Like getting your take on the push press!

Well, the debate is over….strict press added back into the routine. Thanks man

Another good video from Bromley. I am doing master’s SS and have been going back and forth on whether to do a Strict Press or Press 2.0 or pause at the top and bounce at the bottom. I have to say that the bottom bounce seems to be an easier cheat to standardize on than the hip thrust - in my case a bit of knee bend kept creeping into the hip thrust. I recently tried to go to strict + bottom bounce, trying to make that stick. But perhaps a mistake is that I have tried to keep my bar weight where it was and really struggling with the plateau caused by the fact that the strict press (even with bottom bounce) is tougher to move than a Press 2.0. I also agree with the other comments SS doesn’t really teach the lean back. Their version is that you go arch forward and immediately come back to a vertical position. With the lean back you either dont’ bring your back up towards vertical, or else you do come up and then immediately drop back down into the lean. Anyway, really topical for what I am doing right now.

I posted a form check on starting strength reddit for my strict presss and got a ton of crap. I was trying their 2.0 and it's just weird. I'm so happy I found Bromley on here for a voice of reason.

Thanks for the info!! I’ve been curious about this as well. I think I’ll push press instead of the 2.0, especially considering I hurt my back the first time I tried doing one of those axel belly lifts. Haven’t been the same since. 🤦‍♂️

Great video, sets the record straight. If the spine is not in a natural position, it's probably not a well executed exercise.

great content

All the trolling for weightlifting vids I've done, this is the first you've ever appeared in my offerings. Good level headed conversation though.

This is an excellent topic. I will never succumb to “powerlifting” or what powerlifting has become. Low bar wide stance squats, arches that look like double rainbows, but I don’t really care about sumo vs conventional deadlifts. The sport is kind of gross to me. Powerlifting builds a great core of strength. But overloading the body in these weird ass positions. It’s just annoying. I agree with Bromley 100%. I don’t give a shit if I ever squat 500 lbs because I only squat high bar and ATG. I don’t pause my 1RM but if I’m doing a single under 95% I’ll pause it. And my numbers are shit. Because I don’t give a fuck about how much weight is on my back. I care about what I feel afterwards. I like the feeling of working. I like to feel like I’ve done something today. I like that more than “I benched 350 lbs 5 times moving the bar 1.5 inches”. I’m going to start moving towards strongman. That shit is way more fun than powerlifting.

I started doing starting strength again last year and this was the one exercise I couldn't do because of my lower back issue. Just like you said I do push press or strict press.

I think both strict and push/ 2.0 can be used beneficially in a sensible program. The example in the video was quite extreme and the SS program uses a bit of hip movement to get a 'bounce' to help introduce some momentum .

Totally agree with this really well done analysis and the conclusion, that a PP is the better exercise and strenght test compared to the SP 2.0. I think its a bit different for the Log, since you can do an actual strict press with the log without the limitation beeing as big, because the start is higher up. However one thing i was always wondering: Why are Strongman so rarely train the log from the rack compared to barbell push presses/strict presses?

Echoing a few others, the 2.0 action is at the hips. From belt line to shoulders there is very little, if any, arch. Done the way I’ve learned it, it isn’t more dangerous than any other lift I do. Whether it builds strength as well as a strict press, I don’t have enough experience to argue about.

Jesus Christ, the spine hyperextending that much can't be good. I thought the Rippetoe Row was jumping the shark, but this really is something else.

Great video. And, your comments about the arbitrary nature of the rules for the press is why the press was removed after 1972.

You should write a book Bromley, something for ignorant but interested folk like me. History of the lifts, explanation of the history of different strength sports and where they are today, etc. If something like this already exists do you have any recommendations?

Thank you. Save my back. Have been doing push press with no problems. It is an unnecessary complication. Will do regular press. 🙏🏻👹🏊‍♀️🏋🏻 14:24

I’m 5’10” with short arms. I use a 12” log for most of my overhead pressing because of lack of equipment and it seems to save my shoulders more. I almost always have to lean back and I use a push press from that positioning. Granted, I only top out at 240lbs in the log, but I have never had a problem with my back.

Another great video Bromley! It really cleared up some questions I had regarding the different styles of presses. Something I’m still unclear about though is the difference between a strict press from a dead start from the collarbone and a “strict press” where the lifter drops the bar from chin height before pressing it up. From what I can tell the latter too is somehow affiliated with the Starting Strength system. Can someone enlighten me?

As soon as the question said "the weight is limited to the front delt and the other muscles barely benefit." My first response was: Isn't that the point? And wouldn't the push press solve this issue anyway?

Pressing like this really requires you to hing at the hip and not the back or it hurts. I like how the hip pop gets my face out of the way. I don't lean very far back and keep it closer to a strict press, but I strict press dumbbells and I just like that little bit of bounce. It feels good. It's certainly harder that push presses which I also enjoy. Push presses add some explosion that helps overhead problems I have without the raw overhead explosion of the Oylimpic lifts. I suspect that I strict press dumbbells and prefer a little bounce I. The barbell motions because barbells are less forgiving to injuries and the strict press is the least forgiving. Dumbbells are more comfortable but are by far harder to lift your heaviest with which lends them to the difficult strict motion. Also you don't need to get your face out the way. I do find the barbell press does more for the scapula than dumbbells and adding a strict barbell might challenge stability differently. IDK, I'm thinking out loud. I guess what I'm saying is provided it's an intelligent method I dig it.

I do a bastardization of the two. I lean enough to get my chin out of the way and after rep 1 I do not stop at the under chin position, I go from top to bottom back up using that little hip move just enough to get the bar past my chin and head it right back up. I see a lot of their guys always starting the lift at the bottom and doing a fairly pronounced hip thrust to get rolling. I do not know if that is easier or harder than what I do...I do know you need more hips to get momentum if you are starting cold at the bottom all the time...I do not know that the shoulders get more out of it than going from full extension to bottom and back up with less hips. I have long forearms and the hips in allows the bar to sink under my chin and definitely loads tension into the lift so I know it makes a difference. Back in the old days I could do more with a seated behind the neck press so I do think standing is harder with the kinetic chain and some form of hips is needed to clear the head. It does take practice to get down and its an interesting technique. I dont get deep into "throwing" the hips and putting as much into it as I see from lots of SS guys (which theirs is not IMO excessive) but I also do not stop at the bottom, I stop at the top similar to how you would do a bench press or incline.

I’ve though this exact thing the last two years. My program has OHP as a main lift. My thoughts are similar to one of the points you made. If your goal is to get stronger, then why would someone utilize the stretch reflex of the hips and abs to move the weight. And if you were going to create an mechanical advantage to move more weight. The why not just use the push press for its advantages. Great video!

Although in a old starting video, tommy suggs coaching the press with much less bendback , that looks very similiar to ken pateras 220 kg olympic press you can find online

Lol I always lean back a bit when I OHP. Feels more natural that way, cant get nowhere near to my chest without elbows getting behind the bar and the weight falling forward without a lean. Sure, there probably is no need to touch the chest but I like the fact that there is a clear bottom for the range of motion. Some have told me that my lower back will be f'd by doing that but honestly it feels great when properly braced.

Great question from smittywerberlaegarmanjensen

I’m a big fan of these flights but im taller 6’5 so it’s a long way up and takes a lot of coordination... dumbbells it is for me most days..

I didn't suffer any low back aggravation from the Press 2.0, but I also have been catching up on overhead strength due to a labrum tear. I have only just gotten 185 lbs overhead using the Press 2.0 so the weights probably aren't big enough to do much to my low back. I have noticed that the more I used the push press, the better my strict press has gotten. I think the Press 2.0 is a good option for those with knee issues that can't handle the push press, but I don't think the Press 2.0 is effective enough to take the place of the Strict Press or Push Press. To clarify though, the book taught it in a way that sounded like your low back should not flex. The image I got was to keep the spine braced and stable while pushing the hips forward so your body looked like a sideways V instead of a C.

Here is the Starting Strength logic on why they don't push press: startingstrength.com/training/why-we-dont-push-press They say that the "hip movement" they do in the press is self-limiting while leg drive is not. Really? I think it would be pretty obvious if one day a lifter used a slight leg drive and the next day he went into a full squat and essentially performed a thruster. Besides, when you're dealing with novice lifters, the group that Starting Strength is geared towards, it may take them a few workouts to settle into the right technique. Improvements in ALL of the lifts for a novice are going to be based, in part, on small changes in technique from workout to workout. They're just making up reasons to fit their dogmatic narrative.

I've definitely fucked my back up mis-racking an axle by leaning too far back, this week in fact. Hoping it's better by my comp day at the end of the month. 😓

This is a great video on exercise selection! But you should change the title of the video to The Starting Strength "Press 3.0": Is It Better Than Strict? as this video covers press 3.0 rather than 2.0. Press 2.0 is not what Chase Lindley, Carl Raghavan, or Serge Redding use(d). That would be what the Starting Strength coaches call Press 3.0 (or the Olympic Press). The press 2.0 is, as you showed at 5:05, used to create a relatively small amount of spring from pushing your hips forward and standing up quickly. Apart from the quick hip thrust forward, this is very similar to a 'strict' overhead press. It's analogous to leg drive in the bench press. However, the Press 3.0 involves a layback _as_ the barbell leaves the chest to straighten the arms out as opposed to the press 2.0 where the hip thrust _forward_ happens right before the barbell is pressed. I feel this is analogous to a super-arch in the bench. The Press 3.0 is a misnomer in that it appears as a continuation of the press 2.0 when in reality, you can do a layback with or without a hip thrust (since you can use leg drive AND/OR super arch on the bench press). Chase Lindley is a good example of someone who does both a hip thrust _and_ a layback.

I would rather do push press then lean like that. Def have seen the old videos, but i would imagine that i would hurt myself doing that. I do have just a slight lean to get my head out of the way and if I am stepping back from the rack and planting my feet I *may* get a little bounce/compression.

I've always done it the 2.0 way and my back has never had any problems specifically from it that I can tell, sometimes it gets a little sore or achy but I think that is mostly from squating and deadlifting. For what it's worth I'm not a great presser, I think I started starting strength at about 3 sets of 5, 90 lbs (after already training for a bit before). Not long ago I hit 5X5 with 135 and max at 155, but my strength in the lift seems to go away quickly if I don't train it as hard. Sometimes it seems like my gainz in the lift aren't even from getting stronger but getting better at the "2.0" technique (more efficient leanback, etc.).

How you kept a straight face saying that name I will never know...

Love me some Press 2.0

This version of press has taken the actual press, more or less, to the same point where Olympic weightlifting dropped it from competitions in 1972. I believe that Olympic community should have revised the pressing rules to avoid such movement tweaks rather than dropping the elegant clean & press. However, clean & press, despite being dropped, retains its individual components in remaining two official lifts...I mean clean portion is still covered in snatches and C&J, and overhead press part is covered in C&J so not too much was lost from Olympic weightlifting.

They should call it Snap City 2.0

I have lower back issues from some bad landings jumping out of plans and the lean back doesn’t bother my back any.

The knee bend thing at the 5min mark, I believe, is him saying that your press might go up solely by using more leg drive, not thanks to extra pressing strength?

You seem to mostly address the aggressive lean back in reference to 2.0 rather than the bounce which is rebounding into the quads and abs to produce the lift off bounce for the press. I have a pretty aggressive layback and I agree the layback is debatable when comparing it to something like a push press but the 2.0 as it is taught doesn't even reference the layback (they let people fall into that on their own as the weight gets heavier).

Has there been reports of upper chest development from the lean back?? If that’s the case I may be all for it lol

The white board is back baby!!!

you are very good at drawing btw.

Lifters should have a wall behind when strict pressing wich invalidates the lift if touched. Easy solution. Much easier than the 0 ROM bench press problem we see in powerlifting.

Anyone else find that they strict press more after power cleaning the bar off the ground first? I find that doing the movement first gets my body tight like a bow before strictpressing once locked out at the top of the pull.

You can you tube Alexeve pressing a W/R 524 #

My question is why not just push press? Or leg drive it?

My standing presses are always stronger than when I do seated variations

Mitchel Hooper presses the log like that. Got a lotta shit for it too.

My lumbar fusion intrinsically says, I’ll pass…braced core, strict press is what I can handle. 320x10 on the push press, awesome 👍🏻

Agreed

I do strict press without the bent back. I do it to get stronger and build mass. If you just want to throw up weights sure go ahead and bend the back.

Chase didn't "pull" the bar down. He thrust his hips forward, and this lowered the upper body and the bar.

The Press 2.0 and the Olympic press are two different things

I did strongman for 10 years and used a similiar arching back technique in log and axle press....I'm 47 now and feel every one of those attempts in my lower back...I highly discourage it. Also, if memory serves, wasn't lower back injury one of the reasons it was pulled from the Olympics?

The SS press just has you initiate the movement with the hip to allow the bar to clear your face/ chin and still be over the middle of your feet. Hyperextending the lower back isn't the point of it, although I can see why some would view it so, just from the visuals.

I struggle with the press. Can I use dumbbells?

Not a fan of the standing bench press. I did utilize SS years ago when I was learning, as I progressed I dropped it and did more strict pressing. I gained lots of upper body strength and muscle mass from strict pressing and now 200+ for reps. I agree with you that there are more productive ways to build overhead strength.

Recreational lifters need to prioritize safety over weight. Press 2.0, if not learned with proper coach, can be risky for many people. Better use regular press with slight natural lean, or use push press.

That was a flawless pronounciation

So the power clean turned to a dirty clean when it could touch the body.

I have low back issues so the "press 2.0" just seems like a terrible idea for me personally.

The book states you shouldn’t be doing a big lay back. The lay back in the way it’s taught is very minimal. I have never taught anyone to do a layback. And if I were to do it, it would kill my back. And my clients that do it instinctively just do it. It’s a movement you either can or can not do. And out of every client I have ever taught that does an aggressive layback there has never been one injury from it. I know everyone uses chase as an example. But I watched him train for years and watched his 405. He has always done aggressive layback. And since his abs are really strong he’s never had any issues.

At this point I have to assume you're doing that to your shirt sleeves on purpose.

A key difference between the Press 2.0 and the "Olympic Press", is that the latter involves cleaning the bar from the floor first. This means they used a much wider grip than Rip teaches, and couldn't hover the bar near their chin, nor bounce it off their chest to start the press. You can only do that with big weight if you walk it out from a rack. They started the press from the front rack position, which is far more impressive even with the hip drive and layback.

Good analysis! I personally can't fathom why Rippetoe teaches the press this way. SS is marketed as the way to get everyone strong, from a 22 year string bean to his 50 year old mother. Do we want everyone pressing in this comp specific fashion given the obviously increased risk of injury?

The push press would be far superior in terms of upper body development, specially if done as a negative/slow eccentric movement on the way down...it will produce significantly more DOMS tho.

I have the starting strength book and Rip specifically says not to do the Standing Bench Press

Ok. Hi Brom. First, I use 2.0 a lot but with very moderate lean back. Full disclosure. I have watched Rip with the old York guy teach it. My point being that a strict press cannot rise directly in line with your center of balance because your head is in the way, unlike with dumbbells or kbells. So, the idea is to move the head out of the lift path, just like log. That initial contraction actually increases ROM. At the top, you wanna push the head through. I do admit that historically many lifters were gaming the rules, but using the Rip grip and a moderate to light lean does benefit the lifter. A “strict” press is not really strict because I must move the bar forward around my head instead of straight up. I will argue that a straight path is always best for results. A 12” log will put most short arm pressers at or near their sticking point anyways, and with a lean to clear the head. If I do strict, I always do it with kbs or dbs. Plus, the bent press as Pavel teaches in EtKB is wonderful for shoulder strength, because...because it promotes monster stability in the shoulder and core. In fact, I believe that Poundstone’s CDBell technique looked a lot like a semi bent press. Yep. All I wanna say is straight is best and then get the head through for a full ROM and you have the king of upper body developers. I always include push ups on a 2x4 balancing on a 3” pvc pipe also. I guess normal width push ups may be more triceps, but my shoulders are in great shape and I believe it is cause I follow in Rip’s press methodology.

2:28 i think that they did more of push press than a strict press, however 500 pounds is still insane for this kind of lift.

I can offer a slightly unique perspective as I actually had a preexisting back injury (budging disc) that gave me chronic pain before I started lifting at starting strength and learned this movement. I now have no back pain at all and routinely preform this movement. I think the important thing is ensuring you are doing it correctly and really building up the muscles by taking the build slow. Any lift can hurt you, its just a matter of lifting smart and correctly with an appropriate amount of weight.

The Press 2.0 is just the Tony Garcy Press from the rack.

Hi the full lay back press isn't the Starting Strength 2.0 Press it's more like 2.5 or 3.0 even. The SS 2.0 Press is very close to the Strict Press there's just a little bit of movement which aids the bar path.

In powerlifting...going down an inch is considered a red light

I have no idea what this technique is doing in a beginner program like starting strength. The goal for beginners is development, not poundages, so why would you program a press variation that grants you nothing developmentally that you can’t get from a strict or push press and that comes with a vastly greater risk of injury and need for moderating volume? I can see this for a competitive lifter trying to squeeze out greater poundages, but I cannot fathom why anyone would teach a newbie to press this way. Personally, I program the push press as a main lift rather than the strict press, as I compete in strongman and just find it a more relevant lift. I tried strict pressing in the gym thinking I’d throw in leg drive solely for the heavy weights, and realized very quickly that that didn’t work very well for me and I didn’t get any carryover from strict pressing. But for someone who’s not competing in a sport, strict pressing certainly has a lot of benefits and could serve as a main lift. Though I still prefer the push press as I think it’s valuable in its explosiveness, something lacking in the other main lifts. Using your body together in a kinetic chain is a useful thing to train, and it looks less silly than CrossFit pull-ups.

Standing incline press

It appears to be the same thing as an incline bench press.

If someone is competing, they are forced to use the technique that will get the most weight up. That technique has to be practiced in training, but the strict movements must be used in training to develop all the muscles.

6:48 lol

I like 2.0 press. Been working on it for a while

Man. I hate to be that guy but this just seems like a risky way to press! I’m Imagining what could go wrong and ouch.

This 2.0 version is very much like standing inclined bench press. I personally don't like it. Push press is way way better option than this weird press 2.0 as it is more realistic in real life situations, looks more elegant than weird press 2.0, and is definitely simpler in terms of technical & safety aspects and timing of the double dips under barbell.

I didn't watch the video yet and my opinion may be unpopular but I think the barbell press is a terrible exercise. It is a good display of strength but terrible for progression and gains and doesn't hit the side delt at all really. Behind Neck Press is far better as you are not moving your spine around just make sure to keep your shoulder joints elevated or they will impinge, and use a 10-20 rep range and don't push to true failure and you will be fine for 99% of people. These days I just do one armed dumbells however and I seem able to get the most weight and hit the shoulders the best. I lean slightly to one side and slightly back to open up the joint more and this seems to really be easy on the shoulders.

So there is no difference between the "press 2.0" and the lay back press, which is essentially a standing incline bench. I might be mistaken but I think Rip considers them two different things.

I wouldn't say that the 2.0 is cheating. It's a different movement. And since you start from a dead stop, it's even harder when doing more reps. Like a paused benchpress. The examples shown here aren't exactly 2.0 though.