^This. I kinda just assumed it might've been another word for the Fade but evidently it isnt. Also another thing that struck me as a bit weird is that the Dalish refer to the Fade as the Beyond, but Solas calls it the Fade. So maybe the Dalish got it wrong again and the Beyond and they've perhaps translated it wrong or whatever.

What if the void is where the Maker really is? I mean, say the Magisters, (Corypheous and the lot of them) went to the wrong place? And got the taint, and became darkspawn, ect. What if the Void is where people go when they die, the Chantry does say, and the Dalish too, as you pointed out. That we pass through the Fade when we die....and go where? 'To the arms of the Maker'? Idk, but the more I think about it the more complicated it gets... :)

Alex Dunn We can never really really know if the Maker exists, but that doesn't mean that the writers can't cause debate about whether the Maker is but a mega powerful 'mage'/man, or a God as the Chant declares. With power levels that high, yet such distance from everyone else, the Maker could still have a ton of lore yet never be proven, or we can learn so much yet some of us will consider him but a man (in the end), while others believe he's truly godly enough to be a 'Maker'.

Alex Dunn I think they're testing this kind of thing when it comes to the elven 'Creators'. Many will assert now that the Creators are not gods at all. Just men. Okay. But its also very easy for others to imagine how appropriate it would be to call these beings gods, despite Solas' words about it all. So do the gods exist? Well if you consider them men, then obviously not. And if you consider them gods, then sure - but the Maker's deal is that he turned his back on everyone, so if we never see him.... see where I'm getting at? All Bioware has to do is sow the seeds of doubt and make the Maker HIGHLY about faith and lack of proof, but many signs. They can still explore his concept and lore for several more games, and leave interpretation in the players' hands.

Alex Dunn Though yes, I'm 100% sure that Thedas and the Fade (Thedade? lol) is created from a Void. My wildest thoughts go technological, that all of this is code in a simulated universe and the void is but emptiness and The Maker is like a User that could enter Thedas if he actually wanted to. The dead of Thedas may never truly die, as their data may go elsewhere, but having a shepherd to guide the dead safely through the Void (a barrier between the world and the outside beyond everything) could make sense. But only in a crazy way :). Perhaps the Golden/Black City is the entry point, like the enter/exit points in the Geth Consensus :)

The connection with the taint and the lyrium is absolutely there. Even wardens start hearing a "song" when the time of their calling nears. Though I don't think it's connected to the chant, necessarily, as it's not always sung. But taint and lyrium? Absolutely. Red lyrium? Tainted lyrium.

It struck me that Dorian describes the Altus (or Dreamer) class magisters as "Those families who trace descent from the Dreamers, the first prophets of the Old Gods" (enough that I had to screencap it in game: i.imgur.com/DLwVKB6.jpg). With a bit of lore specifically regarding the Altus (Dreamer) mage class: "...there was a time in which these Altus mages were scorned for their seeming part in creating the Blights as the corruption of the Golden City transformed these mages into the first darkspawn. As a result, many such mages were slain during the period of Transfiguration when the Imperium became Andrastian." So, for myself, I agree with you. This all points to Dreamers being the Old Gods themselves.

sylvanfeather doesnt help that fen'harel is (SPOILER) solas. And solas is constantly dreaming to explore and investigate the fade. As an old god who allegedly comes from the void, I want to know his motivation for doing this.

It's possible that the Creators, the Forgotten Ones, and the Old Gods are one and the same. Remember how Solas reveals that Falon'din waged wars so that he could gain more followers and that Andruil was also known as the goddess of sacrifice?

I think you should take it as figurative rather then literal. Spirits are rather like ideas that develop self-awareness. So it may not literally sing but rather the sense of it gives a humming or keening that can be interpreted in the same way as singing. Not a literal song but an interpretation of what is being conveyed blood. Lyrium, after all, is titan blood. So is it so unusual that it resonates in the same way as ordinary blood or tainted blood...just with a different emphasis? Or maybe better to say from a different point of view?

Sadly in my playthought *spoiler alert to anyone that do not wish to hear it* flemeth die's and her spirit gets sucked into the crossroad because i accidentally had on the default story so she didn't have her grandson and the well was in my hero. Where might her spirt have gone?

Wow I had the same theory too where The Maker , The Elven Gods and Old Gods are powerful mages... Oh and does that mean Feynriel has the potential to be like Solas and Flemeth and etc.?

Is it Wrong that i Believe that the Fade and the Black City are a Prison? I Suspect that Fen'Harel and Flameth Conspired against the rest of the Old Gods and Sealed them away when they Made Something so Terrible that it simply had too be Stopped. Sealing it was the only thing they could do so they did. All there goals afterwards have been Destroying/Changing the rules so that they can Stop the "Taint" or the Song of servitude that the Blight has become. I THINK the Blight is just a Tool of the Old Gods too take Revenge on those that "Wronged" them. Then again i Also think that Lyrium is the Physical Embodiment of the Fade and that the Fade is the Collective Consciousness of everyone on the Planet. Mages are simply those that can Tap into it and Alter the Nature of the World around them. Edit: Thinking on it... The DA Universe seems too be Very Similar in some ways too the One from Mage the Awakening (Also World of Darkness RPG in General.. atleast the New one) The Old Gods or Magisters in that are Simply Mages that Ascended too a Higher Plane of Power and Knowledge/Existance and then.. Burned the Bridges Behind them. they Don't Want ANYONE Following them so they Left behind Agents and Misinformation that will get people Killed. They also are responsible for the World being so Crapsack as what they did (Burning the Bridges) caused Reality too Fracture and let things that Shouldn't be.. In. I Wonder if anyone in Bioware is a Fan.... as it would explain why i can see many of the Parallels.

Kind of unrelated but Corypheus refers to the Qunari inquisitor in the final fight saying "Your race was a mistake". Could it be possible that the Kossith were the first life created by dragons, but were perhaps to wild to serve them? Their horned appearance and the Ben-Hassrath theory of dragon blood could be products of the dragons wanting them to be made in their image. Bull says the Kossith didn't look like Qunari so it's possible they were even more animalistic, perhaps slightly more akin to the ogres kossith broodmothers spawn. A wild untamed heritage could also be why the qun is so strict and structured.

In General your theory makes sense but I feel another clue to the nature of the fade lies in the revelations about Lyrium how it is alive and Red Lyrium is the product of the blight infecting Lyrium. Also little bits of information from the codex and from things Cole says indicate that Red Lyrium might be sentient he describes how the Red Templars feel the Red's anger and how some things make it less angry.What I am wondering is if red Lyrium is sentient could normal Lyrium be sentient. Dagna talks about how Lyrium is a part of Dwarves and that it is what prevents them from dreaming and how she had a weird experience working with samples taken from the fade. Here is where things get weird though ancient Dwarves seemed to worship Lyrium (the idol from the deep roads expedition in 2) and modern Dwarves worship their ancestors. We also know Red Lyrium grows from the bodies of those who ingest it. Modern Dwarves refer to their funeral customers as returning to the stone. So what if Lyrium is another form of the well of souls but for dwarves when a dwarf dies maybe they become a part of a giant collective consciousness formed from Lyrium and Lyrium deposits are created from the residual Lyrium in them growing from their dead bodies like red Lyrium dose from the infected. One thing the codex seems to indicate is Lyrium dose grow that a place that has no Lyrium can later have a huge deposit something which minerals just don't do. Further we know raw Lyrium drives non-Dwarves mad making me think that when some one is exposed to raw Lyrium the Lyrium is trying to merge with them like the well of souls did with Morrigan or the Inquisitor only instead of it being a few hundred maybe a thousand minds of is literally millions of minds attempting to link with the person. Another thing that strikes me as odd is Solas mentions that Templars use Lyrium to make reality more real and this is what allows them to disrupt magic. This makes me think that even though Lyrium is alive and exists in the fade that it might not be able to sense the fade which is why Dwarves don't dream. As for why Lyrium increases the power of mages my theory is that using Lyrium is a form of blood magic since Lyrium is alive a mage is effectively using the life force of Lyrium like one would use blood. Another thing that strikes me as odd is that in DAO the codex mentions that neither Dwarves nor Qunari dream and everyone attributes the no dreaming thing as why Dwarves have no Mages. But Qunari do not dream or enter the fade and yet they have mages so why than do dwarves not have magic. (Note even though I use this in my theory another alternative explanation is that this is merely a continuity error by Bioware and that they originally did not intend for Qunari to have mages.) One other thing that is a huge question in this is What is Sandel's relationship with all this. My theory given the fact that Lyrium was revealed to be alive is that his unique nature of being dwarf hybrid with either an elf or human parent he acts as a link between Lyrium and the fade allowing him to at times act as an avatar for the Dwarven collective consciousness and that when in this state he has powers to rival that of a God. How this relates to God's is this I believe there are 3 maybe 4 types of God's in DA. 1) The Elven gods who are powerful dreamers who use the fade to be effectively immortal. 2) The Old gods/Forgotton Ones who are powerful dragons/Mages who used Blood magic to become immortal by transferring their spider to those who ingested their blood. 3) The Dwarven Ancestors in the form of a Lyrium based collective consciousness. 4) A Powerful Fade spirit of Creativity or Faith know as the Maker possibly locked in the black city and possibly tainted by the sins of man into a demon of destruction or Pride. I believe the Maker could be either an Elven god the collective will of Lyrium or a fade spirit. I doubt He is an old god due to the nature of the old gods and the whole assaulting the black city thing. Anyway thats my theory take it or leave It.

Oh wow, you must be proud of yourself, you were bang on

@@rubenb4259 Holy shit, I had completely forgotten that I wrote this. Man, my theories are awesome.

Illusive Man Yeah, that's the part she might have missed. The Old Gods may be something like physical (non-transmutable) dragons that house the souls of the Creators, while the essences of them are locked away in the heavens. With the soul and the dragon body, they may have resorted to increasingly dark measures in order to reach the Beyond. This would make the Old Gods very much their own entities, but still have a history and an identity as vessels of even older powers. I do wonder about the Forgotten Ones and if they still work their powers from far under the Deep Roads, and if everything Darkspawn/Blight/Red/Blood may originate from them or at least be very related to them.

I think the forgotten ones were the makers. Who were thrown into the void by the Elven gods who took over. Solas locked em both away and gave the keys to powerful dragons - the old gods. Not sure how they got locked up underground though

Michael Munns The confusing thing is that, the Chantry says the Maker banished the Old Gods (dragons) to deep underground chambers. Now since there is a parallel between the Chantry and Elven religion, would it be safe to assume that Solas/Fen'Harel is the 'Maker'? This seems to correlate with a theory that Andraste was another vessel for Mythal just as Flemeth is.

Malcolm Swoboda The Forgotten Ones were said to be to gods of disease, terror, spite and malevolence. If there is any truth to this description, the Taint could very well have been created by them, to be used against the elven gods and their servants(?) the dragons. They were also said to reside in the "Abyss", a place no god or mortal could remain for long. It could be that the Black City is somehow linked to the Abyss, it would explain why even spirits and demons will not approach it.

sarahIcommented The problem is you can't take specific words objectively, like the 'Abyss' for example. I always believed that this was simply a figurative term (as many religions use them) for the parts of the Deep Roads (or even deeper?) where the Old Gods (dragons) are imprisoned. Also, if this Abyss exists than someone or something must have created it, meaning there must be some god/being that can reside there.

Where does the Maker fits in all this?

Not sure, but we know that the Maker came to Andraste in her dreams to guide her.... Who does that sound like? I think it was Solas, who Andraste interpreted to be the Maker, and he didn't contradict her because it suited his goals.

SarEnya Dor Theoretically, if all of the different gods were actually just mages (which, I agree with Ashe is most likely the case) then any dreamer could've come to her. My money's on it being Mythal who answered her prayers, and Elgarnan (Mythal's husband in legend) is the being that became the basis for the idea of the Maker. What I will say in regards to the theory that Ashe presented here - if you look at the Chant of Light there is a *heavy* emphasis on both music and silence. The golden city is described almost exclusively in terms of the music everything (from the roads, to the sky) makes. Andraste supposedly gained the Maker's attention by singing in the forest. The word "chant" itself has a musical connotation to it. And the central belief of the religion is that the Maker will only return to the world when the four corners of Thedas *sing* the chant. How does every Warden, ever, describe the "calling"? As a form of singing, or music. Likewise, Avernus notes in one of the writings you can pick up in his laboratory that after extending his life for years (and suffering from extreme corruption) he begins to dream of the Black City - and feels as if he's called towards it. And then there's this little nugget in the Origins codex of the Maker: "Then the Maker said: To you, my second-born, [humanity] I grant this gift: *In your heart shall burn An unquenchable flame All-consuming, and never satisfied. From the Fade I crafted you, And to the Fade you shall return Each night in dreams That you may always remember me*." I sort of get the impression that the Black City isn't actually empty. There's an entity in there (I'm guessing it's Elgarnan) calling all blighted creatures to him. I've heard it suspected that Solas' orb was a key (presumably to the Fade, and to the Black City) I'm suspecting that Elgarnan has been locked away in there. Solas and Mythal intended to free him. And once he is free, his vengeance will sweep over the land. What was it Flemeth said about the vengeance she sought? A reckoning that would shake the heavens? Sounds about right to me. ;)

You know from what I remember of Masked Empire a mural Shartan is describe and he looked very similar to Solas.

Mobius1 B Lots of people forget you actually meet Shartan in origins during the sacred ashes quest, and he looks EXACTLY like Solas. Well it's not actually Shartan but like..a vision or spirit or something in his form. But whatever it is, looks just like Solas.

I get your point and to some extent share many of your thoughts, though I think there could be a little more relation to what is being said here too. It is obvious that Flemeth/Mythal is a pivotal piece of the narrative here and that the Void is also important to some degree. We just haven't been exposed enough to what it really means or how it works. As I see it the themes of the games have been setting the world for us to understand what is going to happen later in the story. Origins talks about the Blight, Archdemons and the taint that threats to consume the world so we know it is of importance. DA II shows us magic, its effects, how the Fade is used to get more power and the dangers of its misuse. In Inquisition we learn about the Fade, Spirits and the connection between both worlds, we also learn that the Maker and the Elven Gods might just be constructs that people devised to understand the world so in the future we could see the creational myths with a broader scope and disprove what is told in folklore (Ameridan's information for example). After this, I think that comes the setup of what Solas' plan really is going to be about because at first, it makes no sense. He himself says that he punished the Evanuris by creating the Fade, but now he wants to tear it down, setting them free again even when he confesses that they won't die easily and he doesn't even have his full strength back. If at least some things are to be believed from what the Chantry says, the Veil pre-dated the existence of the Old Gods (which might be fragments of Mythal corrupted by the Void, since she cannot fully die) so Flemeth has been collecting these pieces of herself ever since the First Blight ended. Now Solas might e planning on using the power of Mythal along with his own to deal with the Evanuris without having to separate both worlds. How exactly will he do it? I have no idea because if they couldn't destroy Mythal or Fen' Harel what is the point of trying to free them back. Also, Solas has a pretty bad judgement for plans (the whole Corypheus/Breach thing was a huge fumble on his part)

granted but remember solas wants to give the elves back their immortality and magic -he has to remove the veil -i suspect that when its removed the elven wounders he spoke of like the library will be restored as well like switch back on the power and restoring from a back up copy of a computer for example. The other element i think is that solas screwed up the first time is because he had NO other options -i suspect he has found something this time that gives him options - also the corypheus issue was because he didn't know he could cheat death -and in all seriousness how could he. Also the void i suspect is where the blight comes from i suspect its what corrupted the evanurists

There's where Mythal comes in play. Why is her death so important (feelings aside) that he has to tear down the whole world to prevent the Evanuris from doing something worse? What if Mythal's death was not a result of their corruption but the first part of their plot to bring down the world to their knees. Also they haven't revealed anything from this "war" the Elven "Gods" participated in or who it was against

can't say its hard to tell what actually happened in the past. and i do think mythal being killed was significant but im not sure we will see

Personally, I think the Blight and what the Dwarves call the Gangue are the same thing, as are Arlathaan and the Golden/Black/Eternal City. I think that by killing the Titans and mining their bodies, the Enuvaris released the corruption which tainted their city and Solas made the Veil to stop them from spreading it, but then the Magisters broke in and brought it back with them.

John Potito I think the taint is just part of it, but I do agree that it would be appropriate to really end 'Dragon Age' with something that addresses the taint more than any other power. But yeah, we're getting the sense that any humanoid character is playing to a tune of greater powers, and any of these greater powers themselves either utilize or are also subject to larger 'natural/supernatural' forces, the 'tune' they dance to. DAI really emphasizes the Red Blue Green as Mass Effect 3 did, but imo in both games, we're only seeing the beginning of a much larger story, as the smaller stories either end or are minimized in emphasis. Flemeth imo will still matter and for all we know, she may have other 'shards' of herself out there (especially if you spared her in DAO?), but the movement more into Elven lore will likely have her at least matter less after DAI, if only so new players don't get so utterly confused at so many names being juggled around. The lore will always be there to refer to, not as stories go on, you don't need to know everything. Like comparing the LOTR prequels to LOTR.

+olddirtymongrrel there is a touch of gnostic lore as well, we know for a fact now that Solas created the viel and made different the worlds, the physical world was never meant to be, and the one who created it was percieved to be a god, until a "prophet" came and showed other wise.

+olddirtymongrrel Solas saying that he's made fade to close there Evanuris. Black City it's Arlathan, in my opinion.

Yup, I've heard Geek Remix's whisper vid. The only thing I disagree with on that interpretation is that Dirth meant Dirthamen. There's a place in the Exalted Plains called the Dirth, which holds tons of secrets and background for the elves. Something is there.

Ashe | Lady Insanity Yes I remember, where there is also that tomb, which If I remember correctly there was a locked door which I couldn't enter, it got me very curious. Maybe it could be a future DLC patch or something else...

Michael G if you are talking about the elven graves infested with demons. you can access the door through grave robbing

Amber Reid yes I know, I was able to enter the tomb through grave robbing but INSIDE the tomb there was a locked door... couldn't get in...

LukaBlight69 Correction: He was in fact one of the Tevinter Magisters who entered the fade. He was the priest of Urthemiel. Not sure if anyone knows this, but here it is

comic books arent cannon

I am totally necroing this thread but DA is my top obsession so sorry! I think the events of both Algammark (yes I know I spelled that hideously) and The Descent and Jaws of Hakkon will play directly into answering that question. The focus on the elves has always been heavy handed while the dwarves and their ancient culture are ignored. In Inquisition there was always a heavy association with dwarven ruins outside of the main plot. Even the events of DA2 rely heavily on ancient dwarven ruins and the red lyrium coming from the ancient thaig. There have been a lot of hints that Titans, stone sense, dwarven ability to handle lyrium, and the very clearly implied fact that an important Alammari mage and a dwarf were married when dealing with that one quest in the Hinterlands are leading to one important suggestion: that the Maker and Andraste in turn were heavily related to Titans and lyrium. The fall of Arlathan has been heavily referenced and speculated about in DA beyond the Trespasser DLC, but the fall of the dwarven empire has not played center stage beyond Deep Roads missions and some of the books. DA:4 will definitely change that since the setting is in Tevinter (possibly Seheron) rather than in Ferelden, Orlais, or Kirkwall. It's a good decision to take the setting away from Ferelden because it gives the opportunity to explore new ideas like the elven pantheon and ancient dwarves having a direct connection without the already existing ideas contradict it too heavily.