One of my favorite parts of the Arabian geography narrative is that if Joseph was actually researching materials from the time, he would have been wrong.

To me it is a miracle that the evidence surrounding the Book of Mormon so perfectly balances on the edge of a knife. To me it looks designed to make it plausible to to accept the Book's historicity or reject it as well. There is no smoking gun either way. It really shouldn't be so hard to disprove a book that makes the claims the BoM makes coming out at the time and place it did. It's like everything is set up just so that accepting or rejecting the Book is a personal thing. I'm inclined to accept its claims, and to me the exact balance that the Book sits in is evidence of its truth. I wouldn't expect it to be proven in such a way that overrides faith.

Murph!

Murph made a good point. If someone came up with a non-religious text that told a story of a group of people going through Arabia anciently. And they found places with distances and directions between them that matched the story as well as the ones that match the Book of Mormon account, then almost everyone would agree they are valid evidences that the text could be authentic.

Love this. Well said 👍 The Book of Mormon deserves serious consideration from everyone for these reasons. The spiritual teachings, symbolism, etc. are even greater and are beyond any 22-24yr old farm boys preaching abilities.

37:00 If we DID find a tablet with Hebrew, scholars would absolutely declare it to be inauthentic. They would insist it was planted or at the very least post Columbian, because there's no other scholarly explanation for a Hebrew tablet amid the ruins. What would it take for scholars to actually declare it authentic?

you guys are awesome! thank you for your content and inspiring the rest of us to share the gospel, you guys are great!

Two of my favorite Latter-day Saint you-tubers in one episode.. How awesome can Saints Unscripted get? Thanks for hosting Stephen Murphy again and nice to see you back, David! Seems like you've been away for a while, unless I've missed an episode here or there :)

I'm also gonna write to comment for the algorithm

I've heard the story second-hand or third-hand, but there was a man on my mission who spent lots of time with native Americans. To the point where he was invited to tour one of their temples (in which he was able to identify a place like the veil in modern LDS temples, and they confirmed such with their reactions). He also told a story about how he read the story of Moroni building forifications around cities, and the native American he had told claimed that they knew the story, passed down from their ancestors.

Stephen Murphy, I am so grateful for your work on these subjects! Keep it up! You stand in the gap for so many people against terribly disingenuous accusations. Thank you!

Your vid's are an awesome way to spend my day on KZfaq instead of watching negative things, thank you for being here

Hey, Murph! Great video! I was just reading A Study in Scarlet the other day which was the first Sherlock Holmes novel and funny enough, it's about the Church. I heard it was written in 3 weeks and people say that's impressive. It's a short book published in 1887 and doing the page and word count, Joseph would've dictated that in half the time...but that's not impressive somehow...haha. Keep up the good work, guys!

The prophecies about the Mighty nation among the Gentiles is another evidence. The United States was not considered a mighty nation until after the Spanish-American War in 1898. No one could have predicted this happening before this. The words to describe the nation prior to the victory in 1898 where ragtag, backwater, hicks, undisciplined etc. The scattering of the Indian nations did not occur or complete until 1924. Until this the Indian nation stood their ground rather well. It was most certainly not a settled issue when the Book of Mormon was written in 1830.

I love your Channel Got to comment to help support that algorithm. God Bless!

I read the Book of Mormon (BofM) and prayed about it and then amazing spiritual experienced occurred; that is why I am a True Believing Mormon and have loved being one. I’ve never felt the need to verify the BofM in a physical or scholarly way. That being said, I just love hearing Stephen Murphy talk about the BofM and how he has reasoned through various historical facts surrounding its translation. When I listen to Stephen I can tell he has read and faced nearly every BofM criticism and the way he works logically through the pros and cons shows he has an exceptional grasp of his subject matter. BofM critics ,like Lars Nielsen for example, have presented very logically weak analysis that doesn’t hold up to a rigorous examination like Stephen’s presentation of the facts do. A million thanks to Stephen for putting forth the effort to lay all these BofM facts out.

🙏🏻✨️For me it's the spirit of God that witnesses the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon 📖✨️.From a scientific look at the book, the book is a Miracle! For me it's also about common sense and all the warnings that are in the Book of Mormon!

I've had insane peace and happiness and closeness to God while reading the Book of Mormon and Bible. I can't prove wither happened but if God wanted us to prove it then he would. I'm happy with a relationship with Him and Jesus.

Thank you Stephen for your research and efforts to communicate your findings and for your courage. And thanks to Saints Unscripted! I love the Book of Mormon.

Solid stuff! Very nice interview.

I’m a heartlander and the hopewell civilization timeline - @600BC to @400AD - is pretty compelling. I’m open to the idea that Lamanites, in open rejection of the teachings of the prophets and without scriptures, migrated into not the Central American regions where idolatrous societies emerged. But the Nephites, I am persuaded, stayed in the North American heartland along the Mississippi and into what we know as western New York, where the hopewell were.

Would the Caraters Document translation be 6th? Or would it be considered part of the complexity of The Book Of Mormon or because it was written by Martin Harris, would it be part of the testimonies of the witnesses?

Love Steven and his story, the intellectual honesty, his return to the church, faith, brilliance. So grateful for you!!!

Thanks guys. Loved this discussion.

Great video!

These vids are great!

One of the things that I haven't seen brought up in relation to the translation is that 1st Nephi was one of the last things translated .

Good stuff!

Love the Murph! Great episode

Great interview

❤awesome

Love this!

Love, hearing more from the Murph! I enjoyed his point at the end how the book of Mormon is to bring us to Christ and unto REPENTANCE! I must say, after decades of figuratively wandering the remote hills of Mesoamerica searching for Cumorah, including literally two as a full-time missionary in the late 90s I have now REPENTED of such speculative ventures and am fully convinced of the revelation based model of North America (HaploX DNA), the land of the New Jerusalem (spoken of by the Jaredites & Christ declared to Nephites) Zarahemla (across from Nauvoo), Manti (in Missouri), river Sidon (Mississippi river) a “choice land”, a “land of liberty” a “mighty nation among the gentiles”…by whom the Lamanite “seed shall be scattered” (1 Nephi 22:7) a prophecy by Nephi fulfilled the same year the church was restored (1830) beginning the very next month of May 1830 by then gentile President Andrew Jackson signing into law the infamous Indian relocation act (Not a coincidence) then the Lord commanding Joseph (5 times in D&C) to send Missionaries to the scattered remnant of the “Lamanites” starting in September of 1830. Where do we know they went? Not Mesoamerica. Instead, just beyond the “border between the gentiles and the Jews”, western Missouri! Nah, despite the beauty and awe of those mesoAmerican stone structures, the earthen temples of the mound building civilizations of N. America line up with law of Moses anyhow. (Exodus 20:24-26). Simple: My preference lies in quoting scriptures, words of prophets and apostles (heartland) as opposed to scholars and archaeologists (meso)….besides this minor geographical error, I love hearing the Murph!

Joseph is not the author or writer or originator of the Book of Mormon. He was the translator or interpreter. He used scribes to write the words. There are authors in the Book of Mormon. Nephi, Jacob, Mormon, Moroni talked about his compilation of the Book of Mormon, Joseph did not originate the Book of Mormon.

Excellent video and great summary of some of the better evidences for the Book of Mormon. If this piques your interest, don’t stop here. Dig deeper and do your own research. The totality of the evidence heavily weighs in favor of the Book of Mormon authenticity.

If the Book of Mormon took place in the Andes of South America then almost everyone is looking for evidences in the wrong places. The Three Witnesses told a newspaper in 1830 that the Lehi colony landed on the coast of Chili. And almost everyone in the church believed that until around 1900. Because BoM people went north in Hagoth's ships, then evidences of them in Meso and North America do not contradict the Andes model.

Like you, I'm sure, I hope that these intellectual evidences may entice non- believers to reconsider their stance and receive, as you and I did to start with, spiritual confirmation of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Thank you!

Now what if the mesoamerican model and the heartland model are both in part correct? What if after the destruction in 3rd Nephi, there was a migration north? There's large swaths of time that are just "And they were happy" for generations. And it's not exactly unusual to give new places old names.

The Murph has great insight.

Love you guys. ❤. I would suggest you read some Johnathan Neville, and some Rod Meldrom and some Wayne May on the heartland. It makes a lot of sense. One thing we all agree on is that the Book of Mormon is true. May God continue to bless your lives!

THE MURPH!

What is considered to be the best argument for how Joseph pulled it off? It can’t be that he made it up as he went. At the very least he wrote it then read it while his face was in a hat. All I hear is “well, it can’t be true because Native Americans came from Asia” or “it can’t be false because it couldn’t be dictated from memory in 2 months”. Anyway, keep up the great work, brethren! I appreciate you.

Captain kidd sailed his ship to Moroni Cumorah on the 12 apostles looking for buried treasure. Joseph loved this story. Watch the movie about it.

I like Murph. He's a sincere, down-to-earth kinda guy. But, I have some notes. 6:45 Orally dictating the text in a few months is impressive. Writing a book is not something the average Joe does anyway, but the time frame is compact. However, it is FAR from miraculous. Elevating that to the level of miracle has some interesting implications for the writings of L. Ron Hubbard, for instance. 7:32 None of this "complexity" is all that complex really. Very few of the 200+ named characters appear in multiple stories. When the same story is told from a different perspective, key named characters are often dropped (like Amaleki's recounting of the Zeniff expedition). The "calendar" systems are just year reference points, not dynamic systems of calculating rotation and revolution cycles such as those found in Mesoamerica. There is a currency system that is brought up but never actually plays a narrative role. And the geography just isn't that complex. Most of the named cities and regions are mentioned once, play no real narrative role, and vanish. Those that do play a role fit into broad, generalized categories and are not that difficult to fit together. 8:10 The allegory of the olive tree is long, highly repetitive, and highly derivative of Paul and Isaiah. The chiasmus of Alma 36 is a very loose chiasmus, fits into common conversion narrative tropes, and is highly derivative of Paul. A really good chapter though. My mission plaque scripture came from Alma 36. 8:45 This must have been recorded before his interview with William Davis. I thought we were dropping this apologetic now that we've shown how someone can memorize these names in forward and reverse order. Also, the discrepancies between "sons" and "descendants" is perfectly consistent with an author operating off a memorized list of names, less so with an author writing from a reference text. 10:10 While the quote from Lucy Mack Smith is important for context, I'm happy with just Joseph's own history to suggest that he had years to work through the ideas and develop the story in his mind before beginning the work of producing the text. If he had an experience which he believed was a visitation of a resurrected ancient white Hebrew American in 1823 (or however else you wish to account for that story), then he had 5 to 6 years to mentally develop the story before beginning the production of the text. 11:28 Nah, Joseph isn't a secret genius. He's just smarter than his peers gave him credit for. Nothing in the text is so complicated as to require a genius level intellect. But it does require the author to be intelligent. 12:14 Hume's razor for the witnesses. Moving on. 17:00 False trilemna. Other possible explanations exist. 19:15 That "plausible candidates" line is key to this. The text of 1 Nephi is VAGUE about where the sites of Lehi's trail are located. Unlike the discovery of Troy, where the text of the Iliad actually provided clues that led to the city's discovery, none of the Lehite sites have been discovered based on clues in the text. Instead, a site is discovered that can serve as a "plausible candidate", and you end up with apologists contending that a continually flowing river in the text is actually this trickling creek in the real world. So Nahom and Bountiful are both argued for on the basis of a whole lot of "plausible candidate" sites that are not directly textually evidenced and that have huge problems when actually examined. 19:49 So, this NHM thing gets overblown or mischaracterized pretty often. Those three characters do appear on the author, as a part of a much larger text, in reference to a person's tribe or community. It is not declaring the name of the site as NHM or any such thing. That said, the altar is located in the tribal region of the Nihmites. That is a rather large region in southwest Arabia. Referring to it under the naming conventions of the Book of Mormon would put it closer to "the land of Nihm" rather than "the place which was called Nihm". There are a whole host of issues with this find as evidence for the Book of Mormon, but I would generally agree that it is one of the best external pieces of evidence for the historicity of the Book of Mormon. 20:49 Nahom is more likely derived from the biblical name Nahum. Whether the mourning association was intentional or mere coincidence is up for debate. It is notable notable that the book of Nahum does have a melancholic vibe. 22:45 Well, the name doesn't match. The consonants do. So what are the odds that he was would hit the consonants N,H,M in that sequence? Better than 0, for sure. Certainly more likely than a miracle claim (by definition). 23:20 Bible maps at the time would have included the Arabian Peninsula. However, the peninsula was not proportioned properly, being much shorter and much wider on the map than in reality. Given the time span of the Lehite exodus, and how the length of the journey is described, a relatively short southward-ish journey next to a longer eastward-ish journey is consistent with the era's Bible maps in a way that is more consistent with the text than a real world experience with the peninsula'a geography would be. And I'm just not as impressed by the "candidate site" evidence. 25:00 He just needs a Bible and experience with American Protestant Christianity, the Mound Builder myth, and a healthy dose of anti-Masonry. 26:37 Okay, Jershon is a great case study for how apologetics bends things to fit the conclusion they want. Jershon does have similarity to a plausible name for "city of inheritance" in Hebrew. I agree. However, the text makes zero indication that the author intended to associate Jershon with "inheritance". There are more references to "defense" and "protection" with the respect to Jershon. Also, the phrase "land of inheritance" is super common in the Book of Mormon. It is most often associated with the land of Nephi. This all just ends up looking like there is no play on words going on with the name Jershon, despite apologetic efforts to suggest otherwise. 27:15 Yet to see a Hebraism that cannot be just as well or better understood as "biblicizing English". I would expect a quality piece of Hebraic evidence to be 1) intentional by the author, 2) unique to and and actually belonging to Hebrew, and 3) unavailable in Joseph Smith's milieu. Furthermore, the Hebraisms used as evidence of an ancient origin for the Book of Mormon are of the same character of those that Dr. Paulsen-Reed called the weakest evidence for the Hebraic origin of the Apocalypse of Abraham. 27:51 If/and conditionals don't work in Hebrew either. The particle that gets used for "then" in some conditional statements can mean "and" in other contexts. However, only an absolutely incompetent translator would translate those phrases that way. Also, this phenomenon is not unique to Hebrew. Japanese has a form of conditional statements that uses a particle that often can be translated as "and" to denote a necessarily contingent consequence to the conditional event. Perhaps the Book of Mormon is actually an ancient Japanese document and Joseph mistakenly attributed to YHWH what should have gone to Amaterasu. I'm joking, of course, but I don't see the apologetic argument of being of much higher quality. Though this was a fun rabbit hole to dive down. 28:45 It is more probable that Joseph dictated Alma 36 himself. 29:20 False trilemna again. 32:00 I'll tap out from commenting here. "Plausible candidate sites" evidence for New World geography has all the same issues as those for the Old World, just cranked up to 11. That you can fit a super vague geography onto a real-world map just doesn't impress me, especially when it fits into so many competing models.

Alma 18:9 “And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a great feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land.” Ether 7:9 “Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of steel for those whom he had drawn away with him; and after he had armed them with swords he returned to the city Nehor, and gave battle unto his brother Corihor, by which means he obtained the kingdom and restored it unto his father Kib.” Ether 15:2 “He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.” -Hebrew and “reformed Egyptian” writing in ancient America -horses and chariots -wars where millions die in battle with swords made out of steel The BoM is remarkably historically accurate! It’s a wonder why critics and scholars don’t take it seriously 🤔 The BoM is so true. The trueness of it is truly truthful. Amen.

Completely agree with the first 4. The 5th is not strong evidence. I have switched to the heartland model after really looking at all the evidence. And people most people open to both models are switching over to the heartland.

For two seconds I thought Stephen was Jesse Pinkman (Aaron Paul)

2:42 Stephen, I disagree a wee, a tiny bit. I think we have no obligation to recognize alleged credence in arguments or theories against the Book of Mormon, because those things are only apparent. They are dung sung from the dark forests of the hinterlands! But thank you for your work and cheers to you, faithful friend and brother! 💛🇮🇪

A little detail about the 3 Witnesses that many overlook is that initially one of the 3, I believe was Martin Harris, left the group as they were praying (before the vision) because he felt that he was unworthy. He removed himself and the other 2 had the vision. Then the third came back and the 3 then had the vision together. So if it were some sort of mass hallucination, how would that have worked where 1 left, the other two had a vision, and then the one who left returned to witness the same vision along with the other two (the other 2 then actually had 2 visions.) ? There is no scientific explanation for how a mass hallucination can work like this, not to mention the fact that theories of mass hallucinations period are already specious.

Quick question: What are the best anti-LDS resources? I have yet to find too many that deal with the main issues (rather than beating dead horses or picking out smaller issues), or don't dump a lot of info without dealing with it very academically.

Watch the old movie about captain kidd.

You're God, and you want someone to translate the Book of Mormon record, and you want to make it as obvious as possible that it's translated by your power and as hard as possible to claim it was translated by anything other than your power. While still requiring faith, at the very precipice of proof. I don't know who would be a better pick than Joseph Smith, Jr. I think it's much easier to believe the Book of Mormon to be true than it is to believe otherwise.

The feeling I get is that if Joseph Smith was a fraud in producing the Book of Mormon, why are things written in the record that are beneficial to people? So Joseph was a good person, so consequently, those helpful things were written by prophets. Thus the Book of Mormon IS the word of God. Thanks.

You talk about names with Hebrew and Egyptian connections, but the most fascinating name in the BoM to me is Hagoth (Alma 63:5-6). For 60 years I've believed that this guy was a visitor from Scandinavia. The earliest archeological evidence place the Vikings in Newfoundland in 1000 AD, but nevertheless this name which is definitely derived from a Nordic source may be giving us a clue that "others" were on the continent. It says that he built a ship and sailed off on the west sea (strange) Northward...well some of that adds up and supports a Nordic origin of the man. But the two verses are so incidental that they are "evidence" to me that Joseph was not trying to prove a point but that Mormon was simply recording this one-off event about a mystery man that nobody talks about. I believe that earlier evidence of Nordic involvement in the western hemisphere simply has yet to be discovered.

It is amazing to me how young mormons tend to easily accept things that for older generations would be apostate issues. You guys talk about the rock in the hat as if it was natural and everybody knew about it. When i mentioned this topic to my parents they almost excommunicated me from our family. They were upset with me because i said something the leaders hid for years. Because that is what they did, they hid it. But it is now very acceptable for you guys. I can only tell you, you will be in the same spot my elderly parents are, and whatever you think you undetstand now, the Church will continue shifting and make you obsolete some day, without acknowledging your effort to believe and your current testimonies. Good luck for both of you when that happens.

Humans are smart, Joseph was smart, kind of like our modern tech gurus.

I would also say, i love the BoM. The stories, the faith. Joseph was either very smart, very lucky, or it is true. 😊 Members tend to go with it is true and thats it. I think it is a combination. There's super smart and capable people who are in the exact time and moment that can produce miraculous outcome. And the topics in BoM are true because it is light. Definitely Joseph was super smart. Being mexican and with little understanding in prehispanic history i would say BoM is not about mesoamerica. It is sad that Americans have trumped my origins by telling me i come from a novel i.e. BoM. But im glad i know it now after 40 years of believing that. And im not even a lamanite anymore cuz Church has shifted on that as well. They changed the introduction on this issue. I will mention my elderly parents again who were taught by the church they are lamanites in blood. But shame, not anymore. That is the shame and the inconsistencies taught by church leaders. If we only had prophets to look around the corners. Oh well, Still a very smart produced book, inspired BoM.

Stephen, thank you for your comments and defense of Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon, not being the author of it. Especially when there are so many out there trying to discredit Joseph Smith and/or the Book of Mormon. I didn't know you had a channel, I'm going to subscribe, I like your presentations. Thank you!

Excellent overview. However, Mesoamerican geography arguments do not belong on the list. 1) Unlike the other arguments presented here, on which there is a consensus among faithful students, these are highly contested and the Church has explicitly stated that we don't know. 2) Cultural convergences are problematic. For example, yes the Maya had kings, concubines and commerce, but so has every other human society more complex than hunter gatherers. Not only is such strained parallelism weak, but it dilutes the universality of the Book of Mormon's message. 3) So far all Mesoamerican models are founded on a voyage across the Pacific fighting the prevailing winds and current for thousands of miles. Such a voyage is completely implausible, and makes all Mesoamerican models requiring it complete FAILS right from the start.

Building up all the false dilemmas and trilemmas is not a helpful path.

HISTORICAL FACTS: 1. The Smith family lived in and around Dartmouth College for around 10 years, and there are many documented interactions with the college. 2. Joseph Smith Senior’s father had a distant cousin named John Smith, who was a professor of ancient languages at Dartmouth University, and wrote about Indian origins, and inhabited planets 3. Professor John Smith’s theological writings bear a strong resemblance to Mormon doctrines. 4. Professor John Smith had 2 famous students: Solomon Spalding, Ethan Smith 5. Ethan Smith wrote View of the Hebrews and was Oliver Cowdery’s family Pastor. 6. Hyrum Smith attended Dartmouth prep school on campus at the same time that his relative was a tutor at Dartmouth. 7. The historical ties between Dartmouth college, Joseph Smith, his Uncle Professor John Smith, Solomon Spalding and Ethan Smith to the Book of Mormon cannot be coincidence.

NEWS FLASH: It was almost one year between the "loss" of the 116 pages and when Oliver Cowdery became Joseph's scribe. So, we know Joseph had at least this long to formulate and write stories down. We know that Joseph and Hyrum had access to Dartmouth College theology writings of Professor John Smith and his students Ethan Smith (VOTH) and Solomon Spalding (religious fiction author). In fact, we know from the Dartmouth college archives that Hyrum attended theology classes with Indians as part of the Dartmouth college prep/convert school.

Why couldn’t Book of Mormon geography take place in both Central America and the heartland? Native Americans were quite capable of transversing the continent to trade and hunt.

Joseph wasn’t the author, Lucifer was!

“True,” proceeds to define a lie.

Quite possibly the least compelling argument I've ever heard, for anything.

If you bring up chiasmus in 2024 you should not be taken seriously as an LDS apologist

Are you familiar with Dennis McDonald? He's a biblical scholar with some fantastic insights into the inception of the Bible, specifically the gospels of the New Testament. The old Testament is Hebrew/Aramaic of course. Basically, he described parallels between the gospels and the Greek poet Homer with his works that predates jesus's time. Much of the mythological figures used in Homer's poems and stories, like Dionysus, Poseidon, describe jesus in very similar ways several ways and it's not by accident. Who ever authored the gospels, they practiced their greek writing from reading and writing the poems of Homer and essentially they recontextualized greek mythology to create new characters like Jesus and the apostles. [[The Book of Mormon's authorship is done in the exact same way. He took the truths of all competing denominations during his time, each with their own unique core beliefs, then held the KJV Bible, inferred his experience in treasure hunting, along side Native American history speculation, to coalesce what we know as, The Book of Mormon.]]

How can anyone “know” the Book of Mormon is true? Because you chose to believe Moroni 10:3-4 is true? Yes, it’s a supernatural book, but supernatural does not equal true because Satan gives a compelling supernatural experience.