Must have been kind of hard for that goalie to get on the bus after the game!

Really? That's funny as fuck!

That was specifically the Scotland goalie. They still failed to reach the knockout phase.

Red dwarf is fun

Indeed, and why I love British humor; it always has an element of truth behind it (as compared to American humor which is usually based entirely on a complete fabrication of the truth, aka lies). I've lost interest in what I call "freak sports". Basketball became "who is the tallest". Volleyball has become the same and they even allow freely swapping their 7 foot freaks into the front row and replace them with rear court defensive specialists ... they don't even play a full rotation anymore. Most hockey goalies are the biggest players on the team, for the simple reason they fill the net more and barely have to move to save a puck. I still like hockey because it's too dynamic to totally turn it into a freak sport.

You mean women. Cis nonsense is made up and normal born women dont want to be called that. How far have come, that we have to call women cis women. This is braindead nonsense.

What about stop using cis for us, it's insulting we're not responsible for your madness.

It suits you. From your thumbnail, I would have never in a million years guessed.

@@andym4695 Thank you, I had Facial Feminization Surgery 3 years ago which made the difference in my transition.

Thank you!

Sabine picked a one off study. The results are nonsense. We know that even low tesosterone males stil have 5 times (!!!) more testosterone than a high T female. Read LARGE DIVERGENCE IN TESTOSTERONE CONCENTRATIONS BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN: FRAME OF REFERENCE FOR ELITE ATHLETES IN SEX-SPECIFIC COMPETITION IN SPORT, A NARRATIVE REVIEW if you want to know more. Yes! Women are way more injury prone. There are also studies looing at the injury rate in the British Navy I think. It was even hihger than your numbers. Women have crazy high injury rates in these fields.

Don't you mean men who haven't gone through male puberty?

@@thealrightygina5725 i actually mean people (cis women and girls, some transwomen and girls, and prebuscent boys) who haven't gone through male puberty are at risk playing with people (cismen, some transwomen) who have gone through male puberty. its not that hard to use clear language and also not be an a-hole.

@@thealrightygina5725 They should, but i think they’re hiding bigotry behind concern trolling

@@trishna_6815 Oh, so you mean that you believe both that transmen shouldn't be allowed to play contact sports with cismen and that transwomen shouldn't be allowed to play contact sports with ciswomen because there's a purported 30% increase in injuries amongst transmen and ciswomen in such groupings? The way you put it didn't make a lot of sense to me but I think perhaps I've got it now.

Still you have body height and bone structure even without going through male puberty. It just isn't fair. Especially in stregnth based sports. She said that it is not so much the case with endurance but even there the difference is not as small as she made it look. It is still significant.

Laurel Hubbard is a good example of what you're speaking to. She competed in the Olympics at age 43 and was considered a serious medal contender having ranked 7th in the IWF's women's +87 kg division. The biological women she was competing against were 10 to 20 years younger than her. She had a previous lifting career, then took more than a decade off and did not compete internationally for 16 years. That is an eternity to be out of training for an Olympic level competitor. She had only been training again for 3 years when she was selected for the Olympics. That is a suspiciously small amount of training for that level of competition. The fact that she took so much time off, but at age 43 was an Olympic contender after just 3 years training again demonstrates your point: even though her age has diminished her competitive abilities, as a biological male she continues to lift at the same standard as female competitors who have consistently trained and are in their prime.

​@@XXXX-yc6wvhe* Can't believe your grandmother gave birth to your mother for you to turn around and reduce womanhood to a costume a man can put on. Get rid of your misogynistic views.

​@@XXXX-yc6wv "as a biological male she..." That's the problem right there. 🤡🌎

Gymnasts are particularly young, not a great event to choose

Hey I've seen impressive things in evo

Too bad men dominate e-sports as well, and no amount of screaming about "patriarchy" is going to change it that much.

@@KhukuriGod Its a joke calm dowm

@@KhukuriGod yeah but in many fighting games there are woman who consistencely in top 16. Its just that gaming events/ online evironment is generally toxic for woman so I think that I also why woman are less likely to participate in them

She legit had me waiting for her chuckle. It never came.

This is a complete misunderstanding of professional sports and athletes. Athletes aren't biological extremes, they are just people that have decided to focus their efforts on improving themselves in their chosen sport like almost anyone can. They aren't special. And fairness has been a VERY important point when it comes to competitive sports where people are playing as a career. Otherwise things like using steroids would be permitted, or really ANY other kind of cheating. To say that "Fairness has never been the point" Is either totally ignorant or willing disingenuous.

​@@GiRR007 athletes aren't biological extremes? how many 5'8" basketball players are you seeing succeed in the NBA? effort is absolutely a major part of the equation, but it's disingenuous to act as though biology has nothing to do with top athletes' success. you need both to succeed.

@@xynix1549 no you need both to be one of the best, you only need 1 to succeed.

@@GiRR007 okay, how many successful 5'8" basketball players are there in the NBA?

@@xynix1549 quite a few, actually theres one guy who was in the NBA at 5,3

Yeah that is how it is aaaand?

@@YEC999 that e.g. Caster Semenya isn't cheating, because she hasn't had anything 'done' to her. She's no more cheating than Usain Bolt with his 6ft5 height and enormous stride is.

@@chrisamies2141 Athlete is NOT a job anyone can do like rockstar scientist, movie star and so on. Marxism simply tells you lies with this concept of "everything has be fair" no it doesn't, if you don't have the genes for athlete: out of luck, not going to allow altering drugs to "make it fair" what a St*pid idea.

Sabine picked a one off study. The results are nonsense. We know that even low tesosterone males stil have 5 times (!!!) more testosterone than a high T female. Read LARGE DIVERGENCE IN TESTOSTERONE CONCENTRATIONS BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN: FRAME OF REFERENCE FOR ELITE ATHLETES IN SEX-SPECIFIC COMPETITION IN SPORT, A NARRATIVE REVIEW if you want to know more.

It’s not « couldn’t beat », it’s « was utterly crushed » after he has a beer and a smoke.

@@andyvirus2300 Yeah Karsten Braasch was not the best player. But he absolutely annihilated the Williams sister.

Can't wait to live in Seoul soon

I feel like the horse is the one doing all the work, if we're being honest.... lol

Are male horses stronger than female horses? I have no idea

Can we really call this a sport? You do less work than a race car driver.

YES COMRADE!!!❤

Money is a huge advantage in every single sport. I'm glad you agree that it's an *unfair* advantage.

This is not random and it makes sense. Phelps is still using his own body whereas Dempsey is relying on specialized external apparatus to enhance his performance. This is like if a boxer lost his arms in an accident and replaced them with metal prosthetics. We would not cheer for him either. Furthermore I should note that Phelps genetic mutation (Marfan Syndrome) is less obvious and well understood by the general public than the idea of having half a foot. So it makes sense that one would generate more ire than the other. They are simply not aware of Phelps' advantage.

@@yessum15 I said in the original post that an investigation determined the shoe hadn't given him any particular advantage. But even so, he still had to have immense leg strength and incredible aim to make that kick. He didn't have a rocket boot attached to his foot. That said, I will grant you Phelps' mutations are significantly less obvious than Dempsey's. But that's honestly kind of my point.

@@elijeschke You did say that the investigation determined the shoe gave no advantage. And I ignored that. Just like the people in your story. Want to know why? Because that is likely nonsense and people intuitively know it. People know that the likelihood the man with this rare physical abnormality and specialized equipment also just happens to be the best kicker ever is too big a coincidence. They also know that such a dramatic change to the major variables present having no effect positive or negative on outcomes is basically 0. This is like if every football player kicks a football but I throw a Frisbee and score dramatically different from the rest. It's gonna take more than a scientist simply declaring "the Frisbee made no difference" to convince people. We're going to need a mountain of high quality evidence here. Now consider the problems with getting _any_ evidence at all. Science is a slow process. It operates best when questions are narrowly defined and variables are limited. When sample sizes are large and research is conducted by disinterested neutral parties ashering to strict protocols. The number of variables present here is insane and the physics is very complicated. Having half a foot dramatically changes the muscle to weight ratio between his power generating hips, and the weight of the foot they have to lift. The swing is totally different. And the shape contacting the football is totally different. The traction on that shape is different. His body mechanics as a whole are different. It would take a great deal of money and time to attempt to get a solid scientific answer to these questions. On top of that their sample size is literally n=1 And the "investigation" is probably as far from scientific as one can imagine and is being organized by a non-scientific organization with a vested interest in a particular outcome. This "investigation" probably has about as much scientific credibility as that ridiculous simulated fight between Rocky Marciano & Muhammad Ali. Which is to say it probably has less credibility than the the scripted fights of Rocky Balboa. So given the extremely obvious nature of the deformity, its hugely intuitive likelihood of influencing outcomes, and the dearth of any real evidence to the contrary some skepticism is totally understandable.

@@yessum15 In case of all that, then what would you suggest Dempsey do? Should he not be allowed to play the game because he only has half a foot? Should he be forced to play with no shoe, disadvantaging him compared to every other player? Should he have to have an extra half-foot stuffed into a shoe, and if that's the case, wouldn't that also be a device that could potentially aid him? What's the solution here?

@@elijeschke No. Because everything I just described is good reason to _suspect_ an advantage but it is not by any stretch of the imagination proof of an advantage. The best solution is to do what they did. Let him play and let the losers talk trash. I was only pointing out that his detractors' talk wasn't entirely unreasonable. It is understandable why they would feel that way. But that doesn't mean we should act on their feelings.

yeah she really dropped the ball there. Her field of expertise is physics. Talking about equality, sports and transgenderism is clearly not her specialty.

@@bananatree1234567so is that your speciality? 🙄

​@@user-sb3sn8di1s you don't need to be a chef to say a certain meal tastes bad.

Agreed, this was a terrible cop out . Her conclusions lack common sense

Sabine was employing a disingenuous 'reductio ad absurdam' argument. Genuinely astonished people haven't picked up on that more here. In a video about the grey areas between definitions of gender and sex to have such an absurdly rigid definition of 'fairness' in an attempt to render arguments about fairness absurd is really disappointing especially when Sabine seems to be promoting this channel as being where serious issues are discussed rationally and (!) fairly. This subject continues to insentivise people to perform unnecessary mental gymnastics for social approval. We can have a fair deal for trans people without lying to ourselves or playing hide the goalpost with what most people would consider unfair disadvantages. The argument 'non professional males would lose against professional athletes' found elsewhere in this comment section gives you a good example of how disingenuous people can be on this: would it be fair to put me, an out of shape schlubb, in a fighting cage with Ronda Rousy...? No it would not. She'd seriously beat the crap out of me. That wouldn't be fair on me. It's not hard to understand that 'fairness' doesn't mean 'exactly equal in every way.'

Because otherwise, athletics would simply be closed to women.

It starts at the local town level with casual play. If there are large groups which have a high difference in aptitude it makes sense to play separately (sex, weight etc.). Competitions arise from this separated casual play. In the case of sex separation we overdo it sometimes out of habit (darts, pool etc.) but the sensible origin is clear.

Sabine picked a one off study. The results are nonsense. We know that even low tesosterone males stil have 5 times (!!!) more testosterone than a high T female. Read LARGE DIVERGENCE IN TESTOSTERONE CONCENTRATIONS BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN: FRAME OF REFERENCE FOR ELITE ATHLETES IN SEX-SPECIFIC COMPETITION IN SPORT, A NARRATIVE REVIEW if you want to know more.

Completely playing devils advocate here but following the logic of some, so what if sport becomes completely closed to women? There’s natural variation within the population that gives advantages to some. Obese and elderly people have a disadvantage too. Unless every possible disadvantage is catered for with a separate category, why should women get one?

@@hllytmh those are examples of fitness issues. It's fine to discriminate on that basis since it's the main part of athletics.

i saw the suggestion yesterday that the olympics should have a random public draft - that it's just random people who are called up and you just have to do it. i'd watch.

That's actually a really good idea.

@@eeeaten You would have a bunch of broken necks in olympic gymnastics.

@@Alkis05 party pooper

@@eeeaten Hey, I didn't object. It would be the olympic version of jackass movies.

Yeah...trying to blunder the meaning of "fair" it wasn't a solid argument...first time I caught her on a slopy point though, usually solid as rock.

“create a level of fairness” that doesn’t mean it’s fair. It just means it’s more fair. Not to mention this same logic doesn’t apply to every sport.

@@amorfo9127 nah, it definitely was completely logical. It’s an undeniable fact that athletic competitions are heavily impacted by your genetic makeup. do you really think splitting competitions between male and female makes it fair? She already listed every variable and difference. feel free to try to argue against it 😂

@@arturintete2461 The same logic applies to all sports. It's not fun to watch a 2000 elo play against a 400 elo chess player past the first few rounds. It's not fun to watch the world's most athletic men compete against the world's most athletic women.

@@erseshe no, it doesn’t. Because not every sport separates people in the same way, lmao.

I understand your frustrations, but tbf, very little people who have a problem with trans athletes also happen to have a problem with the well-known unfair bits of their favorite sports. You must agree that’s a double standard, yes?

@@phamdung3884 How about we turn the tables? I'm not tall, so I could never be a basketball player. I'm also kinda bad at sports, so I'll never be a professional athlete. Or a astronaut. Or a billionaire. Some people were born in the wrong body, so they can never be professional athletes. It's okay if they want to do sports recreationally or in "Sunday league"/amateur competitions, that's fine! And this way, it's much less discomfort, and less controversial, for everyone, especially regarding women's sports.

@@DudeWatIsThis eh… maybe? I don’t necessarily disagree with your suggestion on how we could go about it as I dislike the concept of elite sports (the kind people watch on TV) since it’s so detached from fitness reality. I’m just asking whether you think it’s a double standard towards trans athletes that *THIS* is the aspect of “fairness” we’re focusing so much on. Side note: while I respect a bandaid solution in the mean time we figure out a *real* one, I also doubt that half of the people currently against trans athletes actually want to build a better system. Granted, just allowing people to announce their gender willy-nilly like Canada’s lifting did was a pretty bad bandaid.

@@phamdung3884 I don't believe it's a double standard. It's had arguably the highest impact regarding results, besides using performance-enhancing drugs. It was sudden, it was impactful and it is recent, so it is talked about. If you're trying to dig for latent transphobia, you won't find it here. Just because I'm in favour of social progress, it doesn't mean I'm not equally critical of it as I am about other political or social views. Nobody should get a pass for BS. Not even those in our side. I don't think we're doing the community any service by defending this issue. I do enjoy elite sports extensively. And I find this to be unnecessary. It's like putting lemon in the conservatives' wounds. Why would you give them legitimate reasons to hate other people?

@@phamdung3884 Okay so KZfaq just deleted my 3-paragraph response. Thanks, KZfaq!

She recovered from the 'freak show' comment with the 'physics conferences' comparison. I wonder why athletic competitions are more interesting freak shows? Hmm...

It's not fair, at every physics conference I've been to there's someone smarter than me and at every basketball game, many people way taller and somehow they're hardly ever trans. (though not always, that said, my basketball, swimming, and running careers were not derailed by trans people.)

That line of Sabine's got a spontaneous fist-pump from me! Then I had an urge to check the physics conference photo to she whether she was in it…😜

I loved the Meghan trainor “all the right junk in all the right places” line

@@bcwbcw3741 So what you’re saying is… the true question is why aren’t we segregating physics conferences by sex???

I mean there’s no reason to keep a division. Sure there will be a lopsided representation of men over women but since it’s purely competition, no reason not to allocate athletes to divisions purely by performance. Un-ironically many sports SHOULD remove gender divison

@@woolfie8766 There is no gender division. There is no such thing as a men's sports. Leagues that are mostly or all men are open to women. The problem is that women can rarely compete at the level men do, so the leagues appear to be men's leagues. Women's leagues were started because women wanted to play and compete in sports too. Allowing men to compete in women's leagues takes us back to a time when women will simply not do sports. That is unacceptable.

@@woolfie8766 I don't think you appreciate just how lopsided such representation would be. Sports would be *dominated* by men. Many elite female athletes will lose against teenage boys. Celebration of female athletic excellence would be almost impossible. Women and girls who love sports would have to accept they would likely never be able to properly compete. What a tragic, misogynistic world that would be.

@@boredom2go Dude. thats called gender division. you said yourself..."The problem is that women can rarely compete at the level men do, so the leagues appear to be men's leagues." if gender division is not a thing, women and men can compete in the same match. I still dont get what you are trying to say. From what i understand is that you dont see the "division" because 'hey, women can play that sports too. just like the men. so there really is no gender *division*'. I think what you are trying to prove is the fact there is a *representation* of women in the sport that is "fair". not about the gender division topic..

@@hanjoyitsu1414 I'm saying that the leagues that men compete in are already open to any gender. There's no need to create some combined leagues because they already exist. Women's leagues were created because either women compete only with other biological females or they don't compete at all. Women's sports should be off limits to transgender women (biological males).

Sabine picked a one off study. The results are nonsense. We know that even low tesosterone males stil have 5 times (!!!) more testosterone than a high T female. Read LARGE DIVERGENCE IN TESTOSTERONE CONCENTRATIONS BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN: FRAME OF REFERENCE FOR ELITE ATHLETES IN SEX-SPECIFIC COMPETITION IN SPORT, A NARRATIVE REVIEW if you want to know more.

Perhaps... But the money in pro sports comes from people willing to watch it (and their ads), so if most people turns their back on it because it's just about what rich people/teams bought/developed the most extreme gene modification, the money incentive will be gone. Still people want to be entertained, so perhaps either a shift towards blood/death/gladiator things (humans are humans), or things like driverless motor sport (no driver, so no genetic enhancement - just best motor, sensor, and programming/AI).

@@baardkopperud I think most people would complain but still watch it.

@@baardkopperud What evidence is there that people would actually do that? Or are you just projecting what you see as an ideal world?

Also sports will always be part of our society because it is part of our human nature in so many ways. And since we love to optimize and earn money (love /need) there will always be the road to professiinalism

@@TheRealFlenuan I suppose it'll depend on why you follow sports... For the acheivments? Gone! It's about who could afford the best mods. Because you dream it could be you out there, or remembering how you almost made it as a youth? Nope! Anybody good were moded, injected and trained from before birth. Rooting for the underdog? No such thing anymore! Celebrating human acheivment and endurence? No! ...Unless you mean our ability to tamper with genes &c. Sure there are many other reasons to follow sport, but I do think they'd loose many - if not most - viewers.

I lol

11:16 context for those curious like me, she's talking about how professional athletes already represent the best of the best and can't be considered representative of the rest of the population.

That's right. And if in reality I was a Chemical Engineer, Structural Engineer or some other scientist who actually worked for a living, but insisted on admission into the Physics conference because I "identified" as a Physicist, then I could increase my chances of consideration if I took enough cognitive suppressing drugs that allowed me to share in the wonderful joy of string theory, supersymmetry and all of the other topics presented at the average conference.

I knew someone would get this comment in before me - Sabine excelling herself (again).

"Woah woah woah, you used to say you were a Chemical Engineer but through years of hard work and persistence in study, you now have a paper certifying from the experts of your higher learning institution that you have a degree in physics and you want to be let in and treated like a Physicist since accredited experts say you are one? Nice try, Chemical Engineer. Maybe in another life" - physics conference people *and _certain other folks_

"All female basketball players will be tall and female, but one can be as tall and male" and what does it matter? In that case "male" means you have another power, being genetically stronger what is an advantage just like "a tall woman". So the Person would have simply two advantages, being a Woman that is tall and genetically stronger. It is not the Gender that is the problem, it is the genetically advantage the Transwoman has then. But that doesn't make her less of a Woman. Just a double strong Woman. Therefore Sports should be devided by abilities and advantages, that take the biological sex obviously in account. But the Biological Sex has not to do with what Gender the Person is. It just shouldn't be called Women Sports or Men Sports, if it excludes Transpeople. They should just say Sports or use Terms that refer to the Genetically Advantages and Abilities. But thats "difficult" and "complicated" so people rather refer to it as Women and Men Sports, even if it excludes Men or Women with different Biological Advantages. There are alot of Ciswomen that are Tall and just as strong as a man, that have the two advantages then. But then it would be fine? As already said, Sports should be seperated by abilities, not gender.

I'm increasingly skeptical that science actually has much to say on this. It's a democratic, collective issue, not a facts-and-logic issue. All this discussion of HRT is a red herring. The point of female athletes is for women to have relatable individuals to look up to in the domain of sports and physical achievement. The same for male athletes. The majority of the female population is cis. It's only fair that they get a category that fits their general experience. Ideally there's simply a category for everyone. Who cares which is most prominent... the Special Olympics can be incredibly meaningful for the athletes who compete in it. And objectively it is just as "hard" as the regular Olympics, if not harder. Similarly for the hypothetical Trans Olympics.

We don't allow employers to join unions because we recognize it is not in the collective interests of the majority of the workers. But employers *are* employees, they work for the company too. And there are pro-labor employers out there, who identity with workers and would likely not negatively impact the union. There's no perfect dividing line. Yet unions generally don't open membership to employers. There's just bits of inflexibility in the world that you have to accept, because none of these institutions are perfect, and none by themselves safeguard the general welfare.

@@theshadowsroses Well, you can say that transwoman's gender is "woman", but her sex is still male. The division in sports has never been based on gender (self-identification) but on sex (physicality) because that's what matters in sports performance. I find it "fascinating" that although "gender community" has always been saying that sex and gender are two different things, now they seem to conflate the two when it benefits them.

​@@ZawieHahis sex is still men. It's pretty offensive towards women that just because a man says so, he is suddenly seen as a woman. It's denigrating and humiliating against real women. And the women that support this misogyny are just women too eager to humiliate middle class workers by forcing us to accept men in the same bathrooms our daughters are.

Isn't that essentially the case now? I've heard that in many sports you can't be competitive unless you are taking steroids and other performance enhancing drugs. And none of our current pro sports even have "multi ball mode". As far as I know.

the steroids thing is tame compared to genetically modifying babies to maximize athletic output, but we're likely to be dealing with that in all aspects of life if it's not heavily regulated :(

Lol!

Ya, that was hilarious.

This statement was hands down the best! 😆😆

What do you mean, why would the Borg help?

@@watcher8582 I think he means "take me now, make it stop", lol.

Really though, aren't conferences actually dating forums for scientists now??

this! i'm glad to see this nuance in the comments, because a problem i see a LOT with this debate is the oversimplification of the trans experience. there seems to always be a focus on trans people who started medically transitioning after their assigned puberty, when that is not reflective of every trans person's journey. (though, a lot of the arguments against trans people in pro sports are driven by anti-trans bias, so it would only really mean anything to those engaging in good faith...)

@@nyanbinarydisaster I think your parenthetical note is the real problem. I've pointed this out to people who are zealously against trans people and they just move the goalposts every time without acknowledging the point, complaining instead that no child should get blockers because it will somehow ruin them ... rather than accepting that for most of them, it will eventually allow them to be as perfect as they choose to be. The truth is, they don't _want_ anyone to be able to present and live as a gender other than assigned, because it gives them the _ick_ factor. Arguing in good faith is extremely rare.

@@Felice_Enellen i've noticed a similar thing from my own experience with the anti-trans crowd. no matter how well you deconstruct their arguments and provide them with evidence against their rhetoric, they refuse to be convinced or to even try to see you eye to eye because they're overtaken by hatred (though they won't admit this, and they hate it when you point it out). the other day, i saw someone making that argument about the "damage" that puberty blockers apparently cause, so i asked them how they feel about that same medication being prescribed to cis children for things like precocious puberty and, interestingly, they had nothing to say at all. with people like this, i imagine even they know how easily their arguments crumble under scrutiny, but for them to care about that, their goal would have to be a productive conversation, which it typically isn't. it's a shame, because we could all benefit a lot if people would put their hatred and egos aside and instead prioritise what's actually best for society, even if that means we have to abandon ideas we've been fed for generations and feel an irrational need to stick with. there's nothing inherently wrong with change, after all.

Stopping puberty is one of the worst things we can do medically to a developing human. Doing so needs to be considered unethical, because it causes a whole slew of problems down the line. Muscular issues, skeletal mass issues, hormonal issues. It's stopping a critical growth period of humans, one that is inherently important to every other aspect of the human body. If you think it should be stopped, for any reason, then you're disgusting.

@@dragonmaster1360 If you think people who have a mismatched mind vs. their body should be forced to go through the wrong puberty because of junk science you've obviously read from biased sources on the internet, you're the disgusting one. The changes the wrong puberty makes to the body can cause suicide, which is a far worse result than anything you imagine in order to fuel your hatred for trans people. Oh, unless that's the outcome you want, in which case disgusting is the biggest understatement ever. Get outta here.

Sabine picked a one off study. The results are nonsense. We know that even low tesosterone males stil have 5 times (!!!) more testosterone than a high T female. Read LARGE DIVERGENCE IN TESTOSTERONE CONCENTRATIONS BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN: FRAME OF REFERENCE FOR ELITE ATHLETES IN SEX-SPECIFIC COMPETITION IN SPORT, A NARRATIVE REVIEW if you want to know more.

as well as contextualizing the dry facts into the real world with societal nuances!

Really, this is the most neutral yet extremely informative piece of video essay material on a touchy societal/social subject I've seen

That being said, the numbers in these studies are quite small. Too small by most standards (11-12). Also, who funded the studies? Unfortunately, science is rarely unbiassed as there is always an incentive to satisfy the stakeholders (funders) with results they want or expect. After all, The tobacco industry funded peer reviewed studies that determined cigarettes are good for you and Coca-Cola funded peer reviewed studies that concluded that sugary beverages have no adverse health effects.

I am trans myself and heartily support the LGBTQ community, but prior to viewing this wonderful thoughtful educational video, I was also of the opinion that this was an unfair practice. Bless you for your no-nonsense fact based analysis that presented all sides without bias or sensationalism. Knowledge is power. I just wish more people sought after wisdom and acquiring knowledge rather than having knee-jerk reactions by listening to social media disinformation, their feelings or unquestioningly following the crowd. What a wonderful world it would be.

@@seth7745 Not all studies follow american practices that can lobby and pay off results to their liking. There is an international scientific community where this kind of practice simply doesn't work. We also have far more transparency with the scientific community today, so while your extremely common knowledge examples from over 50 years ago are examples of one kind of practice that does not mean that practice is a universal concern in an internet age where peer reviews, conflicts of interest, money trails, credibility of scholars, universities and institutions, are under constant scrutiny from anyone with an internet connection. "That being said", studies on top trans athletes in particular might be quite small, studies on the effects hormones have on muscle atrophy and or muscle increase, on the performance of top athletes with invisible intersex conditions, on the sexually dymorphic traits that influence competitive advantages, how prominent they are, and to what extent trans people carry them, are better documented, at least to a point where we can have a much more informed opinion on the issue even if we don't reach a definitive consensus. And keep in mind, the tobacco industry and Coca-Cola directly benefitted from these studies being published which is why the studies are directly related to what they are selling. Who exactly would benefit financially from trans people being allowed to compete in sports? I gotta be honest, I've yet to hear a person bring up "big money" being involved in regards to trans people being treated fairly and equally in society that didn't end in "the jewish question".

This quote is so degrading to people who put in hard work and determination. And also degrades the people who lose... As though winning is the only reason we have sports. A tall lazy man always loses to a short hardworking one. The people who think trans people can compete don't even watch sports.

@@dansfrance188 There are no lazy tall athletes at elite level. They are competing with other motivated abnormally tall athletes. The short person has no place there no matter how hard he/she trains.

@@dansfrance188 a lazy female trans athlete also loses to the hardworking female cis athlete

​@@dansfrance188 why do you think trans people can't compete? Does the transgender particle stop them from being able to pick up a ball or something?

@@66Kusmu Us women’s Olympic soccer champions lost to 15 and under boys. Same with the Australian women’s Olympic soccer team. They lost to 14 year old boys. Trans men have an unfair advantage on women when it comes to physical sports. That’s why you don’t have any examples of transitioned women to men in male sports.

perhaps it all boils down to people just wanting to enjoy the thrill of overcoming or outcompeting each other without any care for the methods or ethics involved therein...

Being trans is unethical?

The definition is professional is to get paid for the activity. The idea is that the money gets removed from the equation. But yes, agreed, I can't see prof sports going away in the foreseeable future.

@@BooksAndShitButNotLiterally did u even watch the video…?

@@user-bl2vr9jj2z Some of it.

I wanna see Lebron James identify as female and go play in the WNBA. 😆

The “transgender women should have their separate sports” argument always strikes me as a rehash of the “separate but equal” doctrine from the segregation era. “White people feel uncomfortable sharing a restaurant with black people! Why do you demand to be let into the white restaurant when there’s a perfectly good black restaurant down the street?”

@@smokexsmoke99, except here it's not about "comfort", bot fairness.

In college, there were under-6' intramural basketball leagues. I enjoyed being able to play against people who did not tower over me.

Muggsy Bogues disagrees.

No total infiltration with propaganda language like "CIS"...it is called "normal"

And it breed animosity within children and promotes troubling dynamics of power (e.g. bullies get a platform)

It won’t exist because people won’t exist

Yeah, I find that prediction somewhat unlikely, what will happen though is that records will be reset as they cannot be compared to older ones.

@@noxiousophidian9634 I don't think anyone is talking about the end of sports in general especially not for kids.

The existence of many incentives for unethical behavior hasn't done that much to get rid of politicians or elite universities.

"kind of like physics conferences" lol @ Sabine

There's a reason we don't have Gladiator arenas

Sure. So we should exclude biological women from the “freak show”? If a heavy-weight boxer identifies as a lighter weight class, then he (or she, possibly...) should be allowed to knock around actual lighter boxers? Excluding them from competition would be cruel, and mis-weight-classing them is surely a ‘cancellable’ offence. Maybe the well-meaning / clout-chasing people pushing for trans-gender inclusion in areas where physical reality suggests it isn’t justifiable should be thinking about why they’re willing to dive over this cliff. The point is that people should be ‘allowed’ to have a self-identification that they feel comfortable with, and others should acknowledge that they have this right by virtue of being a person. It shouldn’t become a niche fight over - in essence - massive drug-cheating being allowed because otherwise a very tiny minority will be sad.

​@@boggisthecat "If a heavy-weight boxer identifies as a lighter weight class" This is where your line of thinking fundamentally falls apart. Weight is not an indentity, its not something you can EXPRESS. Its a physical property Sex, like weight,is a physical property that exists on a spectrum: male, intersex, and female. It is comprised of several components including hormones, chromosomes, genitalia, and secondary sex characteristics. Gender is the EXPRESSION of these physical properties. Someone who is trans, such as myself, does not identify with the gender expression that they were assigned at birth. My birth gender was man and my birth sex was male. I now identify as a woman. Here's where it gets important: sex, like weight, can be CHANGED over time via biological conditioning. For weight its excercise and diet. Trans people often make efforts to change the components of sex that I mentioned above, specifcally hormones, secondary sex characteristics, and on occasion even genitalia. Sure its not everything, but the sex has CHANGED. A trans person who desires to and can make the change is biologically different from what they were born as, even if not in every single way. My sex is now changing to female. The crux of the problem is two-fold. FIRST: Sports are not a measure of identity but a measure of biological disparity, as Sabine made clear with the above quote. The best athletes are at the top of the mountain BECAUSE they are at a biological advantage. Even cis women who are higher in strength based sports are technically at an advantage because they have sex characteristics such as hormones or chromosomes of a different sex. They were born with that. That is the issue with sports as a whole, they are not fair and will likely not survive in their current segregated form as we acknowledge more and more the wide array of biological differences between all humans. SECOND: The person you are describing is just a liar. They can identify as someone who is on a diet, but until that diet kicks in they will not have changed their weight from heavy to light. This is not how trans people think. Even in the video its acknowledged that any laws allowing for the inclusion of trans people would require that they be two years into their SEX CHANGE. A transition is never immediate. Its gradual and requires time before it properly sets in. Obv society becomes uncomfortanble during the transitory period (which is itself an issue) but many trans people have the self-awarness to wait until they are far enough along to start doing things like sports in their gender identity.

The ‘freak show’ argument doesn’t hold because at the highest competitive levels freak show males will still beat freak show females on average, so it isn’t fair to have them compete with one another. Sabine seems to have no experience or empathy with athletes who work their asses off throughout their youth to reach the highest levels. Why should female athletes just make way for males, after all that work?

... i'm not sure she actually critically examines every study she shows. actually i'm rpetty sure she doesn't.

Just read the discussion of the paper. These levels were measured after an event, and extreme stress can deplete your testosterone levels apparently. Often this is recovered after a good night's sleep. This study was a spin-off from a study on the effects of doping, so roids have definitely been checked for :) The interesting part of this paper isn't necessarily about testosterone, but differences in lean body mass. They even conclude that using serum testosterone as a means to exclude certain women from competition is untenable, and that LBM is likely a much more important marker.

Yeah that was weird

@@sandrawiersma2512 Good on you, dude-ette!

@@sandrawiersma2512doping still takes place at extraordinarily high levels at the olympics and not usually in very specific and borderline undetectable way, very hard thing to control for even in a study of this magnitude

We demand more videos with various poorly attempted accents, Rohin.

Both sides tends to over-simplify but it’s pretty obvious that ONE side is doing it on purpose and on repeat to further their hateful agenda, while the other side is simply trying to defend a marginalized group, sometimes in a clumsy manner. The dynamic is such that there is a clear aggressor in this discussion and I find it ironic to reduce this to “both sides are wrong”, because it’s an oversimplification.

@@AiguilleVoodoo sounds like steel man/strawman interpretation based on perspective. One could be just as uncharitable and say "one side is protecting a marginalized group (women) and the other is trying to set progress back by excluding women's achievements and purposefully misrepresenting the facts" Like your statement, it's an incredibly unhelpful summary and not acknowledging that these divisive ways of talking about these issues aren't moving the needle for any dissenters

@@maverick9708 There's plenty of other evidence that the great majority of people screaming loudest about "save women's sports" (1) actually couldn't care less about women's sports and (2) hate any kind of gender nonconformity.

Nothing brings me more joy than seeing one of my favorite youtubers adding a well thought out comment to a video from another.

What? You're not even qualified to understand the pubs yet you're confident in your understanding of the validity of the peer review??

​@@kathleenpearson-dh9od Those are entirely different moral questions. We are here to talk about the science, at least Sabrına is. What you are doing is shaming another person for not entertaining a personel belief on a science video, which I think is indefensable. I would be happy to discuss why the beliefs you hold are bigoted however. I am not a scientist (though I am a med student) so discussing morality is more in my wheelhouse.

@@kathleenpearson-dh9od Kathleen - take a fucking chill pill.

Why were you worried? Were you worried she'd state the obvious?

@@kathleenpearson-dh9od Nope. Not really. I guess this video ultimately justified natural males competing in female sports, which is what most people were hoping for to avoid being offended.

I get that about other topics but if you need sources to know women get crushed by trans women idk what is going on up there.

@@raykings5244 that's because that doesn't happen. Hard to find sources about something that doesn't happen. That's like trying to find sources about the dimensions of Santa's house in the North Pole.

I will never trust anything without a source, so I love this channel.

@@hollisticc But it does happen, and it will happen more and more.

@@hollisticc wdym it doesn't happen?

I mean, most won’t get any money and opportunities afterwards. Thinking about profesional sports as a competition for money is flawed because most will make extreme sacrifices and still don’t make money. The effort and years of training and dedication do mean something to the athletes. But it’s not as if sports being unfair and taking away money that could have been theirs is their main risk.

@@yucol5661 nobody said it was the “main risk” Simply another cost for women from men participating in their sports.. despite their leagues being separated BY sex. It’s just so ridiculous…

Perhaps what should then be included in professional sports is an active 'handicapping' negotiation segment where teams or individuals are handicapped based on pre-event negotiations by the managers or coaches. Like in hot rod street racing! Michael Phelps, no one will race you unless you give them x seconds head start!

This is a crazy utopian idea that will, if implemented, destroy elite sports for spectators and thus lead to their complete collapse. We watch sports to see the amazing feats the very best athletes can pull off. Seeing Bolt win by 0.5 seconds in a ten second race makes more people want to watch, not less. Seeing a man who identifies as a woman beat people by that distance in a women's race, would have those who aren't utopian fantasists throwing their remote control through the TV and not replacing it.

Paralympics is rife with cheating

r u talking abt wwe

@@chrisangel6833 That’s actually a really good example

@@markus4925 She spends the second half of the video saying that it’s not just about physiology and they need to analyse fairness, competition, and entertainment. Did you not watch that far?

@@JM-us3fr Maybe they were too eager to voice their disappointment and couldn't continue watching.

Sports are ALREADY reality TV.

That's not true, Usain Bolt stomped his competition for over a decade and was really fun ti watch

Or any team against the Dallas Cowboys.

@@jamonnaranjo Now replace all his opponents with the fastest women.

If its the Pats or Colby Covington getting stomped, I'm here for it any day.

I think this is going to be the ultimate relevant factor in sports competitions. Does anyone really want to watch a trans man destroy a bunch of cis women in any kind of competition? Is that interesting? Exciting? It would be boring as hell, and honestly would make me pretty mad. I don't see how any trans man can possibly think he is earning that win. If I joined a kid's competition and wiped the floor with them, have I earned it? It's not a fair competition. Everyone knows it isn't. The trans man especially should know that it isn't. No one is going to pay to watch events like that.

Right on Luke. That's the way forward in sport without alienating any competitors.

presumably, making out of the forest alive is 'winning,' but how many categories will be enough? how many gender categories were there?

That sport is basically irrelevant to physical ability, unless you're really messed up. Orienteering is more mental than physical. You might be able to run 4 minute miles, but if you suck at reading maps, you're probably not going to do all that well. The same way physical ability doesn't matter much in chess. I don't think anyone would really care who was what in chess. Nor would they in orienteering. But physical sports are a whole nother ballgame, so to speak. A 140 pound female would get near killed on a NFL field full of men....

@@curtisnixon5313 women’s sports won’t exist. The top 1,000 male runners are faster than the fastest woman.

The reason we seperate sports by sex is so females can win something

But it isn’t though it’s the same exact thing every other person says “yes it’s not fair but sometimes life isn’t fair” ignoring the difference between controllable and uncontrollable advantage

It was a low quality compared to what she normally produces. Her conclusion is literally a Nirvana fallacy lol. Her analysis is also lacking a lot of relevant physiological differences between males and females yet she only focuses on males who have undergone "transition" of which the data pool is extraordinarily small while we already know for a fact that muscle insertions, distribution, and bone density stay the same. She, like so many others, is afraid of having her career assassinated by political zealots.

@@deuscoromat742 EXACTLY !!!!!!

@Deus Coromat if she would care to be canceled, she doesn't criticize hardly string theory.

Intersex people are so rare you may as well say they are statistically zero. The issue is not people being born with female and male parts, it is people who feel they do not have the right parts.

Explain to me how that justifies men joining women's leagues. If sport's unfair so who cares anyways, then just get rid of women's leagues and disability leagues entirely, no?

Yes this sounds to me like a good reason to get rid of women's sports altogether. It's going to be unfair anyway so why do we need it?

yeah no this argument sounds dumb

Ladies and gentlemen this is a Nirvana fallacy. "Because we can't filter all the contaminants out of the water we shouldn't filter any" ps. If your ideology is blatantly embracing a fallacy as its Flagship argument you should probably reevaluate Your alliance.

@@alberteinstein8862 Your instincts are correct.

It's not about industry it's about human nature. We always compete. It's what makes life fun.

Yes, but look at Stricly Come Dancing. We COULD watch the very best dancers, but we don't. We watch a bunch of celebs competing to dance, not so well, but there's going to be a winner. Athletics could go this way.

She is german afterall. They aren't particularly popular for their humour

@@rogerstone3068 I doubt it. The Olympic games started over 2700 years ago and it is still around. Humans are competitive by nature, that is what evolution has created in order to survive. We are still competitive in modern society in an economic way as men want money and power because that attracts a mate and a woman wants beauty and charm. There are outliers, but this is rather a rule for the vast majority. Simple evolutionary biology. People want to see the extremes of what a human body can do, so there will always be competitive physical sports at the highest limits because that is also a way we can say our team (tribe) is better than your team (tribe).

@@joeiborowski9763 "It is still around" makes it seem like it has been practiced continuously for 2700 years, whereas the reality is that the modern Olympics were rather spontaneously created about 130 years ago. As an aside, I've noticed that people who say something is categorically "simple evolutionary biology" are often the least suited to explain evolutionary biology to others.

I find it funny how the "fairness" goons are trying to force women's sports that include trans women to exclude them. The fairness goons FUCKING HATE flat-track roller derby because we've told them in no uncertain terms to get bent.

It's not just a matter of 'imperfect'; it's a matter of 'does it work at all'. For instance, the same blow landed on a woman will be much more likely to cause injury than on a male, due to bone strength and size (the latter applying even in cases of similar height-weight, curiously enough). So a woman competing against a man in a boxing match will be much more likely to suffer a broken bone or other serious injury than her opponent, EVEN IF they fall into the same weight class. That is neither fair nor meaningful competition.

We already divide them into classes for fairness - those classes are called male and female

@@OutsiderLabs And you actively try to destroy anyone and anything who steps outside those classes because those classes aren't about fairness.

​@@katherineberger6329 'actively trying to destroy'? What on earth are you talking about? People pointing at the scientific literature and demonstrating that temporary HRT exposure doesn't magically erase the significant physical differences between male and female competitors are not trying to "destroy" people who don't fit neatly into "male" and "female." There is a complicated ethical discussion to be had about intersex people who have advantages within female sex segregated sports (with the most significant being XY chromosomal people with partial/complete androgen insensitivity and as a result naturally present as female). That conversation has nothing to do with the fairness of allowing natal males to compete against natal females under the (empirically verified to be false) presumption that undergoing hormone therapy to aesthetically appear more female makes one physically equivalent to a natal female competitor in sports performance.

Bro I’m 24 pre Hrt (MtF) and I can only do 11💀

Why can't you do a pushup? I was 32 when I went to US Army basic training in Jan of 1982. I started training for my enlistment and was in much better shape than others were. I was 5'7" and weighed 130 lbs. At the end of USArmy Basic Training I was able to do 67 pushups in 2 minutes, 69 situps in 2 minutes and run 2 miles in 13.2 minutes. 20 years later, at age 50, I could equal the same scores. At age 34, I went to USArmy Parachute school. I saw Marines get run off. I saw men that were age 18 - 30 drop out of runs that were very challenging. At parachute training school, 5 women got their wings. They weren't men transitioning to female. They were petite, small girls. There is no reason a man cannot do a pushup. If you are willing to train, you can do it. Your mind is your biggest enemy. I was never an athlete. In school, I was always the last one picked. I couldn't run fast, I couldn't throw a ball, and I couldn't get a basketball into the basket. What happened? What was different at Airborne School? I decided I was a winner. Nothing was going to stop me. Attitude is the key.

I just came here to flex on you specifically. I can casually do 20 push-ups no drugs after not doing it for weeks. To be fair I'm a short teen but still.

@@MD-kv9zo That's the dumbest way to flex I've ever seen in my life

@@tueanhtata5609 I didn't know a better way to state that I can do 20 push ups without doing it everyday.

They do, HRT is used vastly more by cis people than trans people. And cis people don't need to jump through hoops, so they just get a doctor's note.

@@ThePlayerOfGames You didn't get my point. I'm talking about fairness. Fairness in sports comes from different competitors from the same NATURAL category. They have natural differences, but they're still in the same natural classification. They're born that way even they have their own natural advantages as differences. That concept seems fair even though they are different. But with new technologies we started migrating people from one category to another which seems unfair due to we still don't completely understand if that migration technology really works as designed. There are no scientific proof you can change a lion to a tiger even though you can print stripes to a lion. No matter lions and tigers can reproduce to ligers, born lions will never be tigers with our current technology and born tigers will never be lions the same way. We still don't have technology to do that miracle yet.

Me too! Another really good video.

I agree. It's a "hot topic," but a valid question to ask and discuss. And science should be able to ask the uncomfortable of questions and look at them in an objective way. Although it may be a hallmark of transphobia, I believe it isn't transphobic to discuss how trans people in sports should work, or in prisons. And this was a good discussion of those issues, without being bogged down with feelings.

Obliterating the gender divide after decades of hard work giving women a fair way to play is objective?

I was also worried! But I thought this was very well done

I feel like this creator is interested in a purely rationalistic approach. Such an approach seems to support the basic tenets of trans rights.

Yes, born advantages. Not surgery or drug advantages...

​@@AntonAdelsonWhat you say is objectively false. There are countless men who take anabolic stereoids so they can outperform their peers

@@mmmmmmkatata Which is against the rules and gets them banned from competitions. Exactly! Thank you for supporting my point!

@@AntonAdelson I've just realized that you're trying to say trans women are getting an unfair advantage from taking hormones, which is not true. They're LOSING some of the advantage that they were born with, but not enough to become on par with cis women. It's the opposite of something like doping. Therefore, any advantage that they have is a born advantage.

I have to disagree with you. Being a former athlete and nation coach in both men and women's sports you've put too much too much value on genetics. The greater component is epigenetics, in other words environmental expression. Bolt as an example, defied the physics, but you have to understand the physics of sprinting to understand thar. Steve Prefontaine is another example, too short, but became a world class middle long distance runner. Cultures that live at higher elevations develop larger lung capacity, not because of genes, but because of environment. Then why is it some coaches produce more elite athletes than others? Why do some coaches bring home more championships than others. This is not a simple topic, it is very complex. As for the transgender competition goes, you can throw all the studies etc out there you want, but the reality is a trans women can't compete against men, and women cannot compete against trans women. I have coach both elite men and women, but I have yet to coach an elite woman athlete that could compete against elite men. Trust me I would love to be the coach who did it. Did you see the USA national women's soccer team play against a U15 boys team? Women got killed by these boys. I have done the battle of the sexes as a coach, U13 girls vs U13 boys. both at the state level. My girls team beat the boys 3 -0. I knew this would be the results, before stepping on the field, why? 1) Girls were well into puberty and where bigger than the boys as the boys hadn't hit puberty yet. 2) the girls had it mentally together more than the boys. Had we did this with u15 girls and against u15 boys, we would not have stood a chance. The is evidence based science that Sabine, who is awesome, misses the boat on this one!!

Depends on state, but many states permit prescription of hormonal gender affirming care under 18.

😂 i thought I was the only one that found it so funny

when she said "all sports are freak shows" i thought that's going to be a tough statement to keep socially acceptable... but Sabine did it 😁

Yeah, I think Sabine is absolutely hilarious in an effortless way. I love her videos.

@@KristopherNoronha "when she said "all sports are freak shows" i thought that's going to be a tough statement to keep socially acceptable" Same here. I thought: 'No, Sabina, you can't say that!'. And then, when she said: "Kind of like physics conferences", I thought: 'Right, that self-deprecating remark is going to save you from all that horrible kick back that was coming'.

Sabine slays each time ..

@OGSF exactly i wanna see some cyberpunk shit like adam smasher competing in the olympics

No completely solar panels can be placed in area like water canals that would help with algae growth without disturbing land also solar can work with distribution verses Transission and battery storage like Hopedale Australia has proven the concept while also showing how batteries have helped during g peak operation instead of starting up a peaked plant which is vastly expensive saving the customers money united Arab emeritus use solar for pumping gas at 5 cents a kilowatt hour and if no sun or wind for 3 days we'll we would have another more to worry about than energy

Sorry, but she's a professional LIAR: TWO QUESTIONS THE SABINE HOFFSTEDER AND OTHER LIARS WILL REFUSE TO ANSWER Firstly, if at some point in a physical endeavor, strength becomes a secondary factor to endurance, and women are supposedly able to cope better than men when it comes to physical endurance, why is it that even in extreme endurance events like the Navy Seals Hell Week and Ultra Marathon Runs that men still continue to show significantly higher levels of endurance than women? Why is it that only ONE woman Grace O’Rourke, has ever been recorded in all the history of Hell Week to endure its brutal and punishing physical regimen and practically ALL the most significant endurance records listed in the Guinness Book of World Records are held by men? Secondly, if fairness is essentially a meaningless concept in competitive sporting events, what’s the point of even having rules that punish cheating or doing anything that gives one competitor an unfair advantage over another?

@@thebeatnumber long distance swimming records are all women

@@allijnera That was based on skewed data collected from the Manhattan Island Marathon Swim ( between the years 2009 and 2010). The women in the Manhattan Island Marathon Swim were on average significantly YOUNGER than the men (33.7 versus 41.5 years) In marathon swimming events where men and women are the same age, the men dominate.

As a kid, used to play pickup sports with someone who definitely would have fallen into “clumsy child syndrome” (tripped a lot, odd way of running). I THINK he started taking a certain medication and ended up being one of the better athletes on high school sports teams (especially basketball.) Was an amazing transformation.

I was just a nerd. I sucked at all sports, though I wasn't as bad as they portray it in movies, I could actually hit a softball. I did actually play youth soccer, but I was a bench warmer. My coach would put me in a few minutes a game.

Fairnes does not exist. It's an illusion of perception, an abstraction like luck, success, money, and power. Nothing is really fair. It's just rules we invent to make sense of the world. Should we even be surprised those rules are biased to our beliefs and, in essence, also unfair? Luck, or random chance, is by far the most important factor for anyone's success, and yet successful people still attribute most of it to their hard work or talent. Most world records in runs were achieved with a tailwind. Most professional athletes are born in certain months, and becoming super rich is mostly achieved by already being richer than average to begin with. The entire discussion of fairness on inconsequential things like sports or art or what have you, is meaningless. Is it fair that most workplace accidents with power tools happen to left-handed people? Is it fair that the chances of achieving your dreams are basically 99% determined by where you were born? No. Of course not. Should we still strive to make it fair? Probably. Will we ever get there? Absolutely not.

@@FractalParadox That said, what would you suggest for trans women athletes? Seems to me it’s “fair” to allow trans women athletes to compete if did not experience puberty as a male as a start while the issue is looked into more (the position taken by one of the sports institutions.) I’m curious if competition by weight class regardless of gender would be a solution.

@@FractalParadox The fact that something is an "abstraction" does not mean that it does not exist as something "real," even if it is intangible. For example, "success" means "achieving your goals." It doesn't in itself define what the goals are, and some goals people set for themselves are more achievable than others. People succeed at a wide variety of things every single day. In a similar way, just because some things are things that we realize we will never fully achieve does not mean they are not real, any more than an asymptotic value is unreal in math. It is real as something to be striven toward, even if it never becomes real as something already achieved. People who too readily say "Life will never be fair" sometimes use that as an excuse not to strive to make it any more fair than it already is. I think it's good to value fairness as a real concept, because it keeps us striving. It's also worth considering that maybe "unearned" is not always "unfair." It is what we do with unearned advantages that can determine whether a situation is fair. People of equally good will may not always agree on what's fair, but it's worthwhile to continue debating it, such as whether ambidexterity is any more "unfair" an advantage than other unearned qualities that increase performance in sports. I think in the course of that debate, some people might face the fact some of their own advantages are just as unearned as those they want to outlaw because they happen to be held by other people rather than by themselves.

10:36 I’m pretty sure many people want to know what is the best that someone can perform considering their natural advantages *within the category of biological sex*

I agree with you but here in the posts for this video we seem to be a minority. I believe if a person wants to compete they should be able to. But thing's need to be balanced where they can. The only time I hear the word "fair" in any competition, sports,monopoly etc. is when cheating is suspected. If fair is the bar then a person could only compete against themself. Balanced allows for divisions. But more importantly with rules in place then it's on the person to decide if they will give it a shot. If I enter a row boat race and halfway in they announce we're allowing the use of Motors that's unfair to those that made their decision to compete based on the rules at the time. My question for those that think this happening is ok. So do we allow let's say Olympic athletes who have not won a medal to compete in the Special Olympics? Yes there will always be exceptions. Runners who have lost legs and compete with the help of prosthetics. In some automotive quarter-mile racing we had a Run what you brung. Cars were never even/fair. The choice to still compete knowing the rules was up to you which made it fair. Sorry I should have put this as a post.

Yeah, feels like mental gymnastics. I'm so confused when she said this part. We want fair competition so try to make it most fair. Fighting sport usually have weight range which reduce physical advantage.

@@Rheologist "I’m pretty sure many people want to know what is the best that someone can perform considering their natural advantages *within the category of biological sex"* But why "within the category of biological sex"? Is it just that we are so accustomed to partitioning people by sex that we can no longer imagine not doing it? What if someone wants to know what is the best that someone can perform within the category of having size-9 feet? Or the best that someone can perform within the category of being between 5' and 5' 6" tall? If any attribute affects performance, we can imagine partitioning people based on that attribute. Why single out sex, specifically, rather than any other?

@@omp199 Because sex is one of the biggest differences. Comparing 5'11" Allen Iverson to 6'10" Kevin Durant is interesting but they also played against each other, neither has played against Diana Taurasi and likely never will because the athletic gap is insane. There's been less than 20 total dunks in WNBA history. There's more difference between the sexes than any other category. There's only a few sports women can even compete with men at the highest level, yet you'll find men of all shapes and sizes throughout professional competitions.

It’s very sad that you think you learned something from her rationalizing and pandering.

@@RAF71chingachgook shut up karen

Yes if your certain you are Wright then oh oh possibly an error has occurred

Life is not fair soon going to be hard for sports to be truly fair as spectators kinda know this already fans still like to watch it is entertaining

@@josephcunningham5482 - Who is "wright"? Are you referring to one of the Wright Brothers-- Orville Wright and Wilbur Wright? 🤔

The same was said about a physics conference.🙂

Exceptionally intelligent people is not the normal and you can't raise IQ in anyway but dangerous drugs. You can lower IQ with poor nutrition, etc.

do you mean the special Olympics??

@@berniv7375 ..and so has Astrophysics...

@@georgeanthony4834 WTF is wrong with you?

@@RobustPhysics And yet, combat sports could do it better.

Firstly, there are many basketball players well under 2m, usually playmakers, Spud Webb even won the dunking competition at 1.7m. Of course height helps, but taller players are often also way clumsier and slow so it's a fairly fair trade off. Volleyball is actually the sport where height matters a lot more. But anyway, you can't really create a separate league for players 170-180cm, another for 180-190cm players, etc, whereas division by gender is very simple and also (in most sports) not something that can be overcome with training. A team of average sized male players would still destroy a female basketball team with everyone being 190cm+ for example. The differences are far bigger. The same actually comes into play in martial arts, as someone with about 80kg I have absolutely not chance against someone of roughly similar skill with 100kg, body mass just matters that much more in those sports

@@didrikmesicek4825 The fact that 1.7m is remarcably short for a basketball player tells you a lot about the role height plays.

We already do this by having different leagues ranging from hobby to professional, there are amateur and semi-pro leagues for virtually every sport including fighting. But the sports that people watch are the best of the best, they want to see the top athletes competing and that's where the money is, the more you try to include athletes at lower levels, the less people will want to watch.

@@TheStatisticalPizza I'm talking more about physical divisions rather than skill ones.

I know what you mean. It's also really condescending to be told to not talk about politics as much or to watch less news as a trans person when everyone is out here making our very existence political -_- Edit: Not trying to make, /are/ making *

it's really not an issue either You're a man or you're a woman It's pretty simple

I think we’re all sick of the politics. I personally feel like we could have had a reasonable discussion about this as a society, taking into account the challenges of natural advantage balanced against the feeling of the individuals. There’s probably no perfect solution, but we could keep trying to make it better with time. Instead, it has been politicized with one side saying you must accept it without question and the other side predictably reacting to try and prevent all of it under concerns like unfair advantage. Both sides are ignoring the science, resulting is a lot of improper transitions (causing serious harm in society) while further stigmatizing those with actual physiological needs from the other end. It really is the extremes that are killing us.

@@michaelturner7641 pretty sure you mean people have either male or female genitals but can express themselves externally in a large amount of ways that don't conform to your backwards worldviews

@@michaelturner7641 It's actually not that simple unfortunately. Some people don't identify as male OR female. They're known as "Non-Binary" and might prefer an "X" gender marker on their ID. They don't generally look like boys or girls, but something in between. They feel uncomfortable using men's AND women's restrooms, and probably wouldn't feel comfortable competing on Men's OR Women's sports teams. They're the only reason we need a third bathroom or a third sports league; for the nonbinary individuals who don't want to be viewed as male or female. 🙃

I was concerned too, but Sabine did an excellent job. Again.

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Same here. And let's not forget why this topic is hot right now. Because American conservatives, who never cared for woman sports, are creating a moral panic around trans people.

Your comment makes too much sense to these woke lefties who deny reality.

Sabine picked a one off study. The results are nonsense. We know that even low tesosterone males stil have 5 times (!!!) more testosterone than a high T female. Read LARGE DIVERGENCE IN TESTOSTERONE CONCENTRATIONS BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN: FRAME OF REFERENCE FOR ELITE ATHLETES IN SEX-SPECIFIC COMPETITION IN SPORT, A NARRATIVE REVIEW if you want to know more.

Me too! She doesn’t change her demeanor or tone at all, then suddenly I realize she just told a joke! Great delivery 😂

Thank you, this conclusion to the video really seemed like a huge slippery slope.

Basing "advantage" on who can do more push-ups or whatever stupid one-dimensional metric gets used is bad-faith "science," as well. It's creating a predetermined conclusion and backforming procedures to find the measurements that will most likely reach that conclusion.

The point isnt whether genetic engineering is too much of advantage.The point is countries will try to create super-sport babies to win the Olympics, that's why it incentivises too many ethical problems therefore will or should get ridden of if the time comes

@@exosproudmamabear558 Maybe it should, but if anything I would say its going to be the other way around - countries are more likely to use it as another race and the competition will be partially moved from a stadium into the lab.

@@notyetidentified9720 She just thought the best case scenario, bless her heart, but yeah the world doesn't really go a sociologically and politically good place despite technology moving faster than ever. This discrepancy going to give unwanted results one way or another, so your scenario is more likely to happen than hers.

In terms of biological sex, trans women are closer to cisgender women than they are to cisgender men. If you are truly interested in pursuing fairness, you should know it's unfair to have trans women compete against cisgender men who haven't transformed their bodies and biochemistry in ways that align more with women than men.

Well said.

This video made me realize that this channel is not about science at all but rather about indoctrinating people into leftist ideology

Just legalize hormones and put everyone in the same league without exceptions on weight, gender or age. Lets ruin all sport careers for once as we have already started with women

There's no common understanding for fairness, only constant negotiation and renegotiation.

why not question it. she brings up some interesting analysis. but I don't think a woman, cis or trans, would ever sprint faster than the fastest biological male. as for the fastest female sprinters, it's unclear. are there any trans sprinters?

@@kalevala29 yes there are trans sprinters (MTF) and they destroy female sprinters in their races. It's not even close to being competition.

@@kidzbop38isstraightfire92 I know no woman has broken Flo-Jo's record time, in 30 years? then again, wasn't there charges of her doping?

@@kalevala29 give it time... As soon as a true upper-tier Male sprinter identifies as female, it's over.

​@@kidzbop38isstraightfire92so it's not happened then and you know you're presenting lies 🤔

MANSPLAINING!

@@gerry4b shut up

Good point!

@@gerry4b you are not funny

@@gerry4b a - this joke died half a decade ago b - this isn't "mansplaining" at all, by the terms definition

no idea what your point is or how it's related to this video.