I suspect starting out with e85 really limits any benefit from the bolt on approach. Especially if it is already tuned a bit rich. If you were using 98 RON (93 AKI) maybe there would be more of a difference due to cooling effects of vaporizing the water/meth. I think you kind of hinted at this in the middle of the video. It would be interesting to see this on a less optimized setup. I am thinking a street car where to owner has changed nothing hardware wise and the only other mod is a tune using an off the shelf map. Now the stock turbo is running farther from it's peak efficiency, and the stock intercooler is getting heat soaked quickly. This probably better approximates the situation most people watching this find themselves in. For this to work in a bolt on way the charge air temperature would need to be pretty high. 44.3 °C coming out of the intercooler isn't that high.

Didn't think the drop off would be that high thanks fellas loving the project car builds

i dont know why i even watched the video after you said you wouldnt adjust the tune to suit in injection. next video you should adjust the tune to suit

I've had a PWM controlled water methanol injection setup on a modified turbo diesel hatch, with it added without being tuned for it, the car picked up 7KW at the front wheels on the dyno just having the 49/51 mix of water/methanol spraying into the intake. The nozzle was too small though and it wasn't enough spray for the engine. Works really well on diesel.

This is exactly the kind of comparison I have been looking for. All of the other water / meth installs I've seen involve a new tune before the next dyno.

Great info. Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to the next instalment.

I once ran a car that wasn't tuned for meth or e85 with WMI and about 30% e85 in the tank. It actually ran amazingly well with a noticeable gain in power and reduction in 0-60. The fuel trims were actually good (-7% short, -2% long) timing advance stayed higher overall. I was running about 50% meth. Boost temps dropped to nearly ambient. I was using a snow stage 2 progressive kit, didn't have it full duty cycle. I set spray to start at 2psi max at 50psi. Most boost the car saw was 15psi. So as you can tell it never went full duty cycle. Just putting my experience out there.

I built my own water/meth system for my paxton windsor. I run 50:50 water/meth. I think common sense (which is not too common) tells you that you are not going to get any gains from bolting this on alone, because the true benefits come from the fact you can push the tune harder. It's kinda like switching to E85 and not tuning. Adding the methanol means you're going to be running richer right off the bat as well, so doing it without tuning is a bit silly unless you were lean to start with. The reason that the water is used is because the cylinder quenching properties of the water is way higher than methanol alone. The energy obsorbed by water changing state from liquid to gas is way higher, so it can absorb a lot more heat in the cylinder than methanol can. But methanol evaporates very easily, so gives good cooling of the intake charge before it reaches the cylinder. It also increases the octane over pump fuel. My intake temps on a run before meth would go above 70 (only 10 psi boost), and after adding water/meth the intake temp drops to just over 30 degrees and stays there.

Awesome vid! Very informative

I think it depends on what ECU you’re running. I’ve dynoed my Mazda Cx7 (same engine as Mazda 3/6 MPS) and saw a 5 -6hp gain all across the rev range when it was on factory setting (unflashed) running a small 63cc jet. Seems like the ecu detects the cooler air and runs more timing (u can evidently see 1-2 degrees more). Running 50/50 mix.

I dont know to much about e85, but I do know that on a pump gas vehicle you wouldnt see such drastic power drops from adding water meth with out the tuning, in fact you barely notice the power drop at all and its a great mod to ensure that you dont get knock when pushing the car to the limit. I have been running meth injection kits for 20 years and its amazing how much boost you can run on pump gas.

Well, the answer was as expected. Make with part 2 already where you actually tune it. I've got some circuit race track results of water/meth injection on my channel for a completely different setup. 4cyl, 11.5:1 compression, 10psi inefficient roots blower and tiny factory intercooler...on pump 98. Water meth works very well in keeping power consistent lap after lap. I added 4 deg timing (28 deg total) and trim fuel out around 12% when injecting 50/50 meth water. This on a 300HP (CRANK) motor with 300cc min wm injection rate (measure, not claimed nozzle rate).

Did you guys ever tune this properly before you sold it ?im hoping to get my e85 & meth to work together in my fd gt35r maybe you have any tips

Hi, question, I have an L67 engine, will I get a bit more horsepower by bumping the compression up from 8.5:1 - 9.5:1 by using the block from the n/a Buick ecotec V6, if so, about how much?

The intercooler is already enough and there is fuel enough to cool, so knocking or hot intake air is not a problem on this build. The kit should help if running on a stock setup with boost turned up, the now undersized intercooler with a undersized turbo leaving its most efficient work area and fuel injectors that can not spray more to cool everything down again.

The best expression of a water methanol/water injection setup is going to be on a large diesel engine, especially a turbo setup. Diesels are monitoring NOx and add more fuel to use it as coolant to keep things cool to reduce NOx, so it also improves MPG as well as power.

Love the vids mate been watching for years. Just about to go down the water/meth kit for my rx4 coupe here in Melbourne. Which kit do you prefer aem, snow etc. thanks for the help in asvance

Ive used methanol in this way before many times. To make any decent power you really need to substitute a large portion of your base fuel with some decent flowing jets. Most guys just go to a dedicated secondary fuel system with injectors these days. A basic small aftermarket W/M kit is only going to give average gains. Tuning is 100% needed.

Thanks!

Yes please do another video where you tune it for the same ratios. Ie 100% water etc.. I just hooked up my 100% water system today. Still need to test. Pre-compressor BTW.

Great vid! I see this thumbnail won!

You won’t lose power if you have a car that runs a variable timing system, such as the 2015+ Mustangs. The OAR if the tune is set correctly can add up to 6 additional degrees of timing if it sees that fueling is good.

Might you see better results running on gasoline rather than E85?

Broomy did you end up any further testing on the dyno?

Id like to do water only! Love the concept but dont know much about where to start. Any ideas?

i did do a dyno test on my scirocco 160 hp with water meth 50 to 50 without any software programmiing... got a gain from 29 HP

Do lower EGTs = less boost? Thank you.

What were the boost curve comparisons between them, could some of the power drop be attributed to boost curve, it might not be the case but it would be have been good to compare boost curves.

Use a wideband for tuning. It reads in lambda and doesnt care what fuel(s) are being burned. Interested in a pt2 where you tune for it.

great comparison! What happen in diesel engines with the same tests??

does it also make less power on a turbo diesel if you strap it straith on without adjustments? I heard the results on diesels are much better than petrol engines.

Great back to back there guys! 12° IAT drop is awesome! Will be interesting to see how the red rocket flies down the 1320 with some more pressure on the dome!

Hi guys! Was the experience of injection of water-methanol on a naturally aspirated engine without a turbo? It would be very interesting to hear or read about it. (:

Commenting from 2022 i'm surprised nobody mentioned the cost benefits... a 3 dollar bottle of washer fluid will last a full tank of fuel, so you could theoretically run regular lower cost 87 octane and use water/meth to make up the difference, which is still cheaper than using higher octane fuel to start with..

Looks like water/meth is not the effective when running E85 which is mostly alcohol already. I'd like to see this test with pump gas, the results would be a lot different.

Could you do these same tests but on a Diesel engine? I understand on a gas engine you have to have the correct air/fuel ratio but on a diesel you can (more or less) add fuel and it will add power. I’m just curious what it would do for a diesel on a factory tune.

Ethanol and methanol are very similar and you already get the benefits from water meth with E85. If you did this with gasoline your results would be different but you'd still want tuning to get the most out of it.

Is the next vid going to be of a water / meth kit setup and tune properly?

They should revisit this and find MBT with WMI on/off. Or achieve MBT and then increase boost until reaching knock limit. That would show the true potential of WMI.

With tuning on something running 98 would be awesome, ethanol is still not easy to come by in some areas

With the right piggyback or ECU tune and proper WMI injection kit, you can increase power by 50 or more whp.

What interests me about this is, your tune stays constant. But if someone is running a turbo car with a factory ECU, they usually lose power because the factory ECU will pull timing. But if they want to turn up the boost and add water/meth injection wouldn't the factory ECU add timing back in? Also less chance of detonation I would think.

Do you have any ping data?

Would full bolt ons, a catless downpipe, and a piggy back that increases boost justify as a tune for the addition of a meth kit?

Still waiting for info on the Betty build

Can someone please do this on 91 and 93 octane pump. E85 base doesn't give you a fair comparison

On a diesel engine your egt's skyrocket if you inject pure methanol, but the extra power is insane (it's like hitting the nitrous button)

Still no news about the brake replacement on the Vf Redline wagon, how are they going noises squealing and stopping power compared to the stock brembo pads etc. please do a update and also the measurements of the new rotors after now placing ultimate pads from bendix and the same for the rears rotors as well, just interesting to see how much metal is removed due to the ultimate bendix pads v's the OE Rotors that's all ?

Where is your EGT prob mounted? I see about 730°C 0.75 lambda on e85 with both probs about 2" away from exhaust ports.

Hey there love the channel guys, what auto are u running?

Now is this comparable to a car on 98 running the different injection set-ups?, being that e85 already has cooling properties, would you say the power loss would be less seeing as alot of stock ecu's pull timing with temp and if you run water/meth it's going to keep it nice and cool and at its best all year around? I don't disagree that to make the most you need a tune though, love the video guys keep up the good work!! Plus the water meth is great for us with direct injection to clean our vales so its not all bad i guess :)

By chance what size nozzle was used for injection? Asking for a friend

what size jet were you running?

That's BS man. I'm seeing huge gains on my Datsun 120Y with my modified bike pump forced induction :P

If I(a cheap bastard) ever were to install water injection it would be primarily as a safety net(detonation, pre-ignition, crazy EGT) and cheap "in cylinder" steam cleaning. Any torque or HP increases would be just a BONUS.👌🏻

E85 doesn't need Water/Meth injection. but RON98/102 you get a good Benefit there.

Yes but what happens when you tune it in

So did this get tuned, if so what was the numbers? This would have concluded this video perfectly.

How does this compare on a diesel

Looking forward to the results of tuned 100% meth injection

So my mates stage 3 chip he got off eBay for his barra won't add 1100hp?? He'll be devastated. Owell lucky he has a loud a stereo to drown that awful noise his car makes every time he starts it.

is there a follow up video?

Correct me if I’m wrong but running e85+ meth would be running way too rich? That’s why you lose a power?

What happens with a diesel, td 42

Can you advise what injection rate you used for this test, or better still, what rates you use when tuned to suit?

Retrospectively less timing means less aggressive combustions and less boost.

My butt dyno tells a different story. Just installed a progressively controlled WMI system on my focus ST and haven't got it retuned yet, it feels like my car pulls significantly harder. I would say there's no way I lost power, MAYBE it stayed the same but it sure doesn't feel that way.

Crazy didnt think they would loose that much.

I'm pretty sure I read some guys with diesels run water injection because it keeps the engine clean.

E-85 has great cooling effects you would get more gains if you were running gasoline

This is a good part 1 video, and results are results, hopefully part 2 will shed some light onto how good WI can be, i ran in on a similar setup to this a 69mm turbo 13bt running 28psi on pump 98 with it (back before E85 was a thing in aus) how many rotary's run that much boost on pump fuel? also run it on a car with an n/a computer with a turbo and hotpipe (budget setup) but it definitely stopped all issues i had with knock with the n/a timing map. basically the more you slow the flame front and drop cylinder temps the less power you will make, the same goes for running afr's richer, hopefully you guys turn up the boost to get that huffer working and sort out those power killing afr's, goodluck

Is this the right place to mention that that's about the same power a ls3 with bolt on makes?

So should I not install any of em

What this shows is your custom tune is running as rich as possible which isn't normal unless you are running a dyno to meticulously tune it that way. This also shows you are probably missing potential where if fell off when you were running 100% methanol. Perhaps this is because the higher octane of the methanol having benefits at higher rpm? Perhaps you aren't advanced enough on your current fuel? Which would also prevent any gains. An engine with a knock sensor and self advancing timing would pay off or if you were more aggressive with your timing im general. If you think about it, the water is also offsetting the air in the chambers which is further enriching your fuel. So you have a few things that most people wouldn't be facing, 1. Fully saturated air to fuel ratio, 2. you are probably dumping a little extra fuel past saturation to mitigate heat that the cooling system cant handle, 3. Loosing boost from lower exhaust gas pressure. So you are half right. MOsT people would benefit only those who are tuned to the gills should have a negative effect.

So about 402 horsepower?

You lost me on "Fuel part of this equation won't change". One of the reasons for WMI is to alter AFR. It richens the mixture hence the ECU can advance timing to make it leaner. All you end up doing is flooding the system with too less air and too much fuel. If you are loosing power, you installed your WMI wrong, simple as that.

to quantify data then a final run on e85 should be done to rule out any variables.

i dont see the follow up. where is it?

The theory behind water injection was implemented on German fighter planes to run higher boost without destroying the engine with preignition knock. They only used it if they had to run crappy fuel on good fuel it was a waste of time. The theory behind today’s systems is to cool intake charges, spraying the outside of an inter cooler can give better benefit without messing with tunes etc.

How NOT to install a WMI system.

I haven't watched in full but you need to adjust tuning for your fuel type otherwise it does nothing. Like running Premium high octane fuel on a normal car. Only really a benefit of you tune for it.

Well not really a surprise. E85 is already adding the benefits to it. Most cars that have seen those Dramatic increases are on pump 98RON - E85 (is not really pump when you can't get it everywhere) Most of what was new Direct injection motors with limited fuel pump and larger injectors available without adding port. Are the cars that seem to of had the best improvements with the water meth injection. IMO primarily use non dyno tuned - Internet COBB shit tunes download tunes. With these injection systems helping to cover holes in those tunes where individual engines setup differences don't come into play. I think you are still correct. Because really. Everything should be re tuned to get the most out of everything.It's 2020 once you have the control be it a edit program or ecu. it's not like a old carby you have to a set of new jets be more interesting to see results on a edgy DI petrol engine on pump 98ron. Particularly how much can be dialed into it

E85 is a race fuel. Most ppl and car enthusiasts are running petrol. So I think that by lowering the intake temps you will gain power. Because think of summer. The intercooler cant lower temps below ambient. Do a couple of hard runns and you get hest soak. ESPECIALLY with a smaller turbo turned up high. The air charge will go up to 50C and more. The ECU is simply going to detect knock and retard timing thus you loose power. So cooling air charge even without writing it into the map is effective in my opinion. Also any change in air fuel ratio is going to be detected by the o2 sensor and ECU compensate. Also if you write the w/m into the map you will have to be careful not to end up with an empty w/m reservoir.

What about with 98 as the fuel. E85 is alcohol based already

Who on earth would just bolt water-methanol and jus roll with it? 50/50 will give you the best results. You need to keep injecting until the engine almost chokes on it and then back off a little. This is what Rodney at Pro Meth has suggested to everybody and the result after TUNING is more power. Methanol does pull lots of heat, but water can pull more BTU than meth, you have to keep increasing the amount of water injected until temps no longer drop because of saturating the air. Then give the boost and ignition a crank and it will make more power again. There is more oxygen in Methanol so you'll get additional power increase from that, what is why 50/50 is best. If you want to run 100% Methanol, get VP M5 which is 5% Nitromethane.... That will put some kick into it, most cars 30-40 whp OVER 50/50 or E85.

No 431 curve on the graph???

I already know the answers to this video but might aswell see your view and expierence with it

air fuel ratio ten and a half degrees ?

E85 already has a cooling effect. you'll see your biggest gains when running pump gas. if you use 2 things that have a cooling effect then 1 gets cancelled out and you can lose power by cooling the combustion too much. run pump gas and retest you'll see different results.

Water met is for forced induction not NA. Also for fuels that have a lower flash point than ethanol.

The biggest benefit is for people that are octane limited with pump fuel , no e85 availability. No water meth can only run about 8-9 psi with water meth about 15-16 psi on my personal setup, 10:1 compression

But do it on a standard car that has heat soak problems. And a Ecu that self adjusts. And is constantly pulling when things get hot Like most new factory turbo cars Rather than a tuned race engine already running a fixed map ecu and a very high knock resistant fuel

What about pre turbo water injection?

No follow up on this? The water/meth also saturates the IAT sensor and reports false "over cool" readings that don't represent the actual charge temp as a whole. So we can't use the data provided by thermistor type temp probes. If the reported numbers were true, methanol inj would be more efficient than the typical A2A intercoolers. Which isn't the case, proven by power output VS IAT on the dyno. Without the common distribution issues, I'd think a rotary could go extremely far with a TON of methanol injection directly in each runner. While I Don't think you need much additional timing, you could run a much healthier amount of boost.

I think your IAT is off or something funky is going on? We see 20°C drops on Barra turbo's with a 50/50 mix (20+ psi boost) plus the longer you're into it the better it works. This is with 98oct so knock limited before the water/meth... Rotaries are a different beast and your air is totally different to Nth Qld's shit humidity though!

Can you tune it with the 100% Meth on e85 and we see results?

Do people really think if you plug in water meth then it magically increases power without a tune? Also water meth is better on 98 not E85.

What is next? Watch this before installing larger ID Injectors?* Watch this before upgrading an upgraded or adding a turbo?* Watch this before installing a stroker kit?* *Without re-tuning.

Watched the intro and already know how THIS is going to turn out with all 3 options... LOL It's as bad as guys hammering on their cars on the base tune provided with their new ECU- I HAVE seen this done by the way

I think my early 2000s ECU would love water injection because it depends heavily on knock sensors and air temp for it's timing map, runs absolutely insane in colder temps