I used to work for an auto repair shop that also did towing, and they had a fleet of 6-8 International 4600 with the DT466E. I was the diagnostic tech and the only diesel tech they had, so I got way more experience with these turds than I ever wanted. We had one of the trucks fail to start one day, which was pretty common and usually an injector or HP oil system issue. This time, it wasn’t. The ECM would repeatedly reset when cranking the engine. I was almost ready to put an ECM in it, but given the cost of the magic box and the fact that my employer was the customer, I was double-checking. I’d checked powers and grounds with a test light, even when cranking, and it looked fine, just a little variation in the brightness of the test light that matched the cranking of the engine, which is to be expected. I decided to check the power and ground voltage with a scope while cranking and I’m glad I did. The power supply was dropping below 4V for literally milliseconds while cranking. This was enough for the ECM to lose power and reset, but too fast to show on my test light, especially given the voltage variation when cranking anyway. I followed the power supply wires back to the battery and found that the 40A fuse holder was melted and causing a voltage drop under load. I had checked the power supply with a high amp test light and the light was bright, but the high peak current drawn by the ECM while cranking was causing an issue. I suspect that every time it tried to fire an injector, it caused a supply voltage dip that reset the ECM. For fun, I went and checked 2 of the other tow trucks that were at the shop and what do you know, the 40A fuse holder for the ECMs on those trucks were also starting to melt. The problem seems to be that 40A is too much for the small automotive fuses to handle. I honestly had never seen a 40A fuse in that size (they are usually maxi or PAL fuses, not the smaller size) and I don’t think I’ve seen one since. I cut out the small fuse holder and replaced it with a maxi fuse holder (still 40A) and the truck fired right up. The shop owner decided to do the same for all the trucks in the fleet and all of them had varying degrees of heat damage to that fuse holder. Bad design I guess. I’m not sure that was the problem you were experiencing here, but I saw that same damn 40A fuse when you were messing with the batteries and it reminded me of that. Hope you never have to work on one of these again. They suck.

Retired from a metro detroit municipality and we avoided international like the plague for the very reason your dealing with.

Can't believe someone brought you a plow truck when it's not the busiest part of their season and they dont need it back in 12 hours

Ivan would click his headlamp off and say "we have an interesting case study here. "

"Rust Belt Shaman" would be a great name for a KZfaq channel.

I had a very similar issue on an ambulance. It was a 94 7.3. Ended up just being a leak on the HEUI system not allowing it to build enough pressure to fire the injectors. I’ll tell ya.. that engine in a van style chassis makes it very difficult to get to the problem. I wish this video existed two years ago as I didn’t even know what that system was all about.

Your perseverance is 2nd to none , ya magnificent trouble-shootin bastard ! Have a great weekend my friend. 👍 🍺

I did not fall asleep. I am simply amazed at your diagnostic skill set. I have been out of the trade since 07,but I absolutely love your Video's. Keep it up.

A good way to start the day with the word we all like to hear, "crusty"

“Here’s the part that’s gonna bake your noodle”: this is my favorite Wesism of the video. 😂🤣😂👍❤️🔧

I know someone who used to work at the International dealership just a few miles East of you. He always liked the DT466, but didn't like anything else about International trucks. He quit to maintain his sanity.

Wes, it seems to me you've been issued a permanent pass ticket to the struggle bus. Front row seat with a 500 pound gorilla between you and whatever item you're trying to diagnose. But we have faith in you Wes, we know the next episode in the Wes Struggle Bus our intrepid Wes will achieve success over the engine Gremlins and be victorious. The celebrations shall be glorious ✨️ 🙌 😀

So Wes, you’re telling me an old workhorse can’t get started in the morning without some Cosby sauce, and once it gets rolling he’s a stud all day. I believe the official condition is called being a 48 year old man. Great diag as usual.

Heui systems always do the weirdest stuff when old. Had a 6.0 power stroke once that had a complaint of oil gets too hot low power etc, but if an oil change is done that problem goes away and then slowly comes back. After a lot of head scratching and using a little parts swapping turns out the hpop was internally leaking, bypassing the oil cooler. But when you changed the oil the new additives sealed that leak for a little while. Most infuriating thing to figure out lol.

Your diagnostic thoroughness gives me something to aspire to. Nice work!

I really enjoy the electrical diagnostic videos. I find them fascinating! Thanks for the great entertainment and education!👍

Big thanks for the work you put into these episodes Wes!

At least it wasn't snowing, I feel your pain. Love the WES CAD, excellent sketch. Thanks for sharing

Great Diagnostic Troubleshooting, Wes. Always great content. Your commentary is priceless. Thanks for the education and laughs.

Really appreciate you running thru the theory of operation, not a mechanic but love to learn.

That was amazing!! Very interesting and you do a fantastic job explaining everything. Can’t wait for the next ones!!

Over the pond,very little Huey systems,thank god,but a good diagnosis,thanks for the video.

Well, I learned a lot about a type of injector system I didn't know of- so there's that! Thanks for the education, Wes!

I respect your knowledge of how this stuff should work and you do not give up easily.

Morning Wes love watching your channel your the man you can get anything working. It my take a time or two, but you don't give up. Have a bless weekend and prayers for your family and your dog

Really enjoy your diagnostic explanations and the graphics you draw.

I ran into this many times working at Ryder Truck Rental. Injectors needed replaced.Internals were worn out inside Injectors and would not start after a cold soak.Once fired on ether would start all day.

I have just subscribed to you channel. The detailed problem solving and critical thinking you have is immense you are a true WIZZARD! Absolutely love the the hand drawn graphs and TECH notes this video was very informative and a joy to watch. Thanks!

Oh thank goodness for that, i couldn't find anything to watch and was about to go sleep...thanks for the video Wes!!

You deserve a thumbs up for the title of the video alone. Addicted to ether. Great.

I hung in with you the whole way. Didn't understand a lot but your shared thinking helped a lot. I enjoy your problem solving skills and actually over the time of this video I began to understand a lot more. It stayed interesting for me right up to the end so you are doing something right. Thanks. I look forward to the next one, Wes!

Oh man,New videos by watch Wes work,salvage workshop AND diesel Creek all in an hour! What a treat 🙏 thank you

Wes is the only mechanic I know that has a LightHouse to test for 12 volts.

someday I hope to have your patience and thorough problem solving abilities. you are a smart, smart man

I realy love the way you manage trouble shooting ! A smart guy plus wide skills make amazing efficiency...

What you are dealing with in this one is very close to home for me. There are a lot of these 466e and 444 (powerstroke) local to me that I have spent a significant amount of time on. There are so many possibilities that its most likely multiple things, for example. Had a few Intertrashional 466 plow trucks that the engine harness would have salt and water intrusion in multiple spots in the wiring harness. Voltage from one inject might fire another or send cam signal to each injector simultaneously. Have seen the HPOP fail to supply the correct pressures from electrical (IPR) or mechanical (cracked heads, cracked injectors, or bad pump), All of the electronic control diesels have their own piles of unmitigated garbage that come along with them, save for the smaller cummins. The really redeeming factor for them is they weigh 1800-2500lbs, so at least you get a few sandwiches worth when you crush the trucks.

HEUI was a CAT invention. Navistar USED to take power and grounds from the starter lugs. That caused a ton of issues, ask JB Hunt.

Fyi, rewatching because the knowledge of all machines is never enough and your videos are extremely educational and entertaining! Keep it goin Wes

I really liked the detailed review on paper. The reasons why it needed an ECM. Great video. Thanks!

Great video despite no real resolution. Love this diagnostic stuff.

You have *WAAAY* more patience than all of us! I would have been pulling out my hair in clumps Wes. Hats off to you for trying your best to figure it out. That truck needs parted out! LOL 😂 Take care my friend 🙂👍

I have ALWAYS been AMAZED at all of the diagnostic technicians like yourself that can dig that deep into a system to come up with a conclusion as you have done🤯my head looked like that, five minutes into your video but I ended up watching the entire video hoping you would find and fix the issues! Well done anyway.

Sitting on a sunny mountainside in Asia on a Sunday morning marveling at your skills ! CNC to large diesels and seemingly everything in between . The videos are awesome - you are a true master of your skills.

Hello Wes glad to see you back posting videos. I think you did a great job on this vehicle. You have given a list of reasons for your diagnosis that seem more than reasonable. If there is a follow up and it does get a replacement computer I hope they pass on the results to you. You deserve that much closure and more. I think if I were at the maintenance yard they store the vehicle at I would schedule a start every day to keep it functional. It may last years and be ready for the bone yard before it fails completely. Good job and do not loose any sleep over it.

Wes, this is actually fairly common and the symptoms overlap a number of possible causes, some of the more common are: 1) Low/no oil in the HPOP reservoir, 2) Low ACTUAL ICP during cranking (sensors LIE), 3) Make sure you get 35ish psi of fuel pressure at cranking and if not Inspect the check-ball in the fuel strainer and the regulator on the return fitting if EFP is low or rises slowly. Lastly, the HPOP must be force-fed by engine oil pressure. It's not the ECM, or at least I'm saying it's not ;)

Those international trucks are complete nightmares. Nice job on this one

Wes, that was brilliant, I didn't understand a word of your carefully reasoned arguments but it's obvious you know what you are talking about which is why I watch you !

Nobody can say you don't try hard. What an awesome job you do.

We had a 2/12 ton truck in Viet Nam that was hard to start because it had no starter. We pushed it with a 5 ton dump. Yes it did run all day, or we were walking back. The Vietnamese got the new stuff, we got WWII 3/4 tons, and WWII C rations. We should have purchased a starter on the black market for 2 cartons of cigarettes. It would have been delivered in one day.

there's a reason these problems have been going on for a long time, hard to track down and fix. good work wes.

Whether you fixed it or not, I love the way you walk us through your incredible thinking!!!

Wes your deductive skills are right on, better than my engineer new hires. I have watched all your videos even the early ones. Very impressed. Gery Bauman BSWE.

Wes - Two things. 1: It _USED_ to work when there was an external battery charger connected 2: The 'spikes' are being seen on a large number of sensors IMO, that's almost SHOUTING at me that there's too much electrical resistance in a ground circuit somewhere. (Especially point #2 above) When ANY injector 'fires', it is 'lifting' the ground voltage to everything (INCLUDING the ECU itself) To test my hypothesis: Grab any semi decent old car battery with some long-ish leads (possibly 2 of them in series if the injectors require 24V) Connect the negative directly to the ECU ground leads (since the injectors are 'cold side' switched through the ECU) Cut the existing positive feeds to the injectors and connect them to the car battery positive You're now 'feeding' the injectors from a totally independent power source - the truck should run just fine. Now disconnect the external battery negative from the ECU and connect it instead to the actual truck battery negative right at the truck battery itself. If it fails now, then you definitely have too much resistance in your truck battery ground/negative circuit (which is what I suspect since so many sensors are affected) The other test would be to cut the injector feeds and directly connect them to the truck battery positive to check for resistance in the positive circuit, but I seriously doubt this is the problem.

I hope you are well paid for your excellent diagnostic skills.

Cursive writing is a lost art, nicely done!

Wes, I am a 70 year old applied mathematician who has worked in defence contexts (not in US). I have worked with PhD electrical engineers on various issues (mainly submarines ) and I like the cut of your intellectual jib. At the outset I thought to myself given the obscure algorithms in the ECM (now to be fair I have actually written some incredibly obscure algorithms for which my emplpoyer holds the patents mind you) which are beyond my detailed knowledge for cars but I I did wonder whether it was a sampling issue going on here. Your analysis is not at all fanciful and I really liked the way you abstracted the problem, What people fail to understand about many computer systems is that they are in many cases actually doing sophistcated averaging, A derivative is a species of average: [ f(x+h)-f(x)]/h. I could go on but I won't. You will get me into Kalman filters etc. Suffice it to say that you and Eric O are up there in my scheme of things. Massive respect for your work. I'd let you loose on my car .

Wes , you are an amazing troubleshooter. This design seems over complicated. I assume that you get a lot of work that other folks couldn’t figure out. That’s a good reputation to have. Thanks for sharing

My favorite KZfaq channel. Informative and entertaining.

I love that you sketch out the problem on green engineering paper! I’m an EE and this brought me back to my college electrical fundamentals classes (I which I suspect you took as well).

sometimes ya just got to walk away .. and never look back ...lol great vid !!!🤔

Wes you are a good mechanic but your diagnostic skills and explanation of what you are doing and looking for are just top notch. There are good mechanics all over the place but what you are doing is much more than just a mechanic. Great stuff on this channel as usual.

Fantastic explanation at the end, very educational, that final start had me laugh out loud, well done

That create an actual headache. My hat is off to you sir. Thanks for the ride along.

Thank you Wes! Best mechanic content on KZfaq!

we used to have a fleet of 2004 4400 Internationals with the DT466E. They look nothing like what you have there. We would run into an issue with the engine having a long crank/no start due to a bad o ring where the oil rail meets the head under the valve cover. This would create a hard start, and if bad enough, a no start situation. Diag would be to disconnect the oil feed hose from the HPOP to the head, run a 150 psi to the fitting and watch drop off on the gauge as well as the ICP pid on the scan tool. if pressure fell off the cliff on the gauge, and the pid value was way off the supplied pressure, the o-ring shit the bed. I agree, this is a bad design, with multiple redesigns all the way up to the maxxforce engines. I have seen the screens on the IPR shattered, ICP failures, we even had an issue with the ecm being filled with oil, only guess is it traveled up the wiring as the outside of the ecm way dry. sorry see this one was a bust. Keep up the great content.

Wes...I kept waiting to hear "Well there's your problem", but it never came lol! Your step-by-step troubleshooting process usually leads to a solution. Would be interesting to see if the issue ever gets resolved. Thanks for sharing!

Best video on this subject. Good information straight to the point. Thank you sir. Much appreciated. Got mine figured out with the first 7 minutes.

Great video Wes! I seem to remember a while back( I thought it was your channel but maybe not so I'll mention it) I saw a video where a guy had one of these with same type situation and it was caused by oil draining out of the little reservoir they have in the front timeing cover that supplies oil to that high pressure pump up front.

Your patience amazes me, of course I wouldn't be in business very long when I "sadly" report to the customer, I'm sorry there's been a fire and your rig burned to the ground. That would be more believable than someone stole this rig wouldn't it?

Thanks for the real world video. Nice use of the scope again, much better than somebody replacing all kinds of parts and it still doesn't start. Even if it's a little boring to watch sometimes.

After watching your work on the International makes me feel nostalgic for the old Roosa Master injection pumps. I give you credit, when it comes to diagnosis you are like a cross dog with a bone. Never give up never give in.

Trouble is ECM faults have the same hysteresis as common electrical faults but we learn to usually trust the ecm data because of a lower failure rate. Nice work in trusting your diagnosis.

On early computerized engines, like in the 70's (my screen name), broken solder joints in the computer could often be diagnosed by kicking the computer when problems happened. Maybe your fiddling with those bolts on the computer and back probing the connector caused a temporary fix. Should have drove it after it started at the end to see if it had power. p.s. thanks for showing your notes. I haven't seen cursive writing in decades. Good to see that some people are still using it. It was actually legible, unlike mine if I tried it. Your drawings are good too.

Hi Wes thanks for taking us along, you’ve definitely got the patience of a saint! Is it just me why can’t we keep things simple you know like the good old days of mechanical timing and mechanical injection pumps no frigin computers or sensors, maybe I’m just getting old and crusty.

Great video, Wes! Love the "notebook talk" segment! What a frustrating POS!

Sounds like there’s an awful lot of people giving advice albeit well intentioned, in the comments, not sure how helpful that is for you Wes after you’ve worked on the truck. How can you find time to run a business, have a well adjusted family (with dog) produce videos, edit them and then read the comments? Hats off mate! I’m sad enough to procrastinate over all the things I’m supposed to be doing to watch your videos almost as soon as they are posted! I look forward to your productions and can even understand the technical side (well, sort of…) but marvel at your tenacity although your exasperation at times is palpable! 🇦🇺

Wes, you must have the patience of Job, how on earth do you get to the bottom of these problems, I doff my cap to you my friend, you're an inspiration, trying to explain to a customer the amount of your time spent diagnosing, must be difficult.

Great diagnostic. What a pain of a design to work on and try to find a fault. Can't beat the old mechanical high pressure fuel pumps on older diesel engines. Very reliable and work after years of not being used.

Very interesting and informative video, nice one Wes, If you ever do get a definitive answer or update on the truck, please do let us know! Keep on being the fountain of information that you are!

My wife and I never miss your videos. Your's is on of the few I wear my glasses so I can see every aspect of what you are doing even though, when you breakout the electronic scanners, I'm as lost as Helen Keller in a hurricane. Doc

Pull the ECU and start replacing leaky Caps, clean up the board, always great to watch the channel, great content and diagnostics.

I never worked in one of them but I drove them for over 20 years til I talked management into buying Peterbuilts. I spent many hours on the roadside or at the garage watching others fix the stupid things! Great video!!

Hey Wes, your diagnostic skills are great! I appreciate your explanations of what you are doing. What really impresses me though is your handwriting. Well drawn diagrams and clear, legibal cursive handwriting. Those skills are less common then your diagnostic skills.

Wes, i totally agree with the placement of the engine control module. Completely buried behind all kinds of things. It would help my feelings to get a punch into the face of the genius that designed it.

Wes you are the man! Nice job. Love your skills!

Appalling wiring harnesses and install. Why on earth are these things made so complicated? You did a great job analysing this.

Cursive writing. Classy . Great comprehensive video.

I spent the better part of the last week troubleshooting a low rail pressure and high rail pressure code on a cat C6.6 in a D6N. It was a huge pain in the ass to figure out. It would run fine at low load but when you pushed a full blade of dirt the rail pressure would be about 2000psi lower than desired and it would code. Then the rail pressure would get "stuck" about 5000psi higher than desired and set a hi pressure code. Got all the way through the cat troubleshooting guide with no fix. Finally tried a new injection pump and it runs better than new.

I've seen issues with starting these forever... numerous issues...high pressure pumps..warped oil rails..icp sensors or coils..cracked front structures..faulty fuel check valves,..corroded ecm and/or plugs..etc . In the fleet of 40 of these treasures I was blessed to work on for 8 years...I think only one had a bad ecm . Without a good diagnostic laptop it's hard to pinpoint...ours was ok but always needed updates ...it was in for repairs more than the trucks were lol . One thing comes to mind..you mentioned it starts when cold...if it has issues once warm.. I've seen faulty icp valves..or the orings on it bad . But one of the first areas of concern for me is the wiring plugs going to the ecm...those o rings are so thin they only have one side lol . I've seen water get in them and corrode many times..a thorough cleaning is often the solution .

I so wish you were local to me, fighting electrical gremlins on my truck pulling my hair out knowing there’s something stupid going on but not wanting to take it to someone who’s just going to start blasting the parts cannon at it is quite a struggle. Love your content as always

Iam surprised 😮 you held it together that long. I would not have the patience good for you 👍

Wes one thing that you have to remember, the design engineers don't work on the equipment that they design. They are only interested in the power lines going where they think it should be going. You are striking for Sainthood but the customer isn't going to understand what you have to do to trouble shoot a problem.

Your understanding of electronics and the control circuits in the modern engines astounds me. This one was a real stumper and the worst part is that we will probably never know if the computer is what finally fixes it. I love watching both you and South Main Auto for the depth of diagnostics you guys go to, and your explanations of the circuits.

Hi Wes! I am fairly new sub. I do diagnosis as well. I just wanna say thank you for sharing your knowledge and thoughts with us . We really appreciate the hard work you put in to bring us this content. I have always worked on gas engines. I would luv to learn more about diesel for sure!! I saw a video where you said you were in northern Illinois we are close …I am near South Bend IN in Michigan near the southwestern corner 👍

The fuel system is draining itself over a few days more than likely. Common problem on the old 7.3's in the Fords. Updated lines and fittings available from several suppliers solves the backflow issue. Quickstart just gets everything running fast enough todUck fuel.

I remember back in the 90s I considered buying an International road truck, but I found out they had a problem with wiring in the sleepers and fires starting apparently because of cheap wiring, so I ended up going with Kenworth and never had wiring problems other than usual corrosion problems with connectors on lights.

"This is the stupidest design anyone could ever come up with" International: *hold my beer*

Wes I had an international 9400i I bought for super cheap when I started driving over the road for myself. Had it for 3 years. Whooooo doggy you aren't wrong. Everything on them is just HARD to work on. Also surprise surprise I had random electrical issues all the time because their harnesses are god awful. 3 years of constant repairs. The head gasket was starting to go so I took it back to the auction. Have had a freight liner for awhile now. AMAZINGLY easy to work on in comparison. Love the content and trouble shooting. you do one hell of a job to find answers on stuff.

I used to work on measuring instruments electronics (truck scales, conveyor belt scales, metal detectors) and underground mining locomotives, like 800-1000 ft. underground. Watching this puts a smile on my face cause this reminds me of my younger days, chasing my tail lol. it's very similar with the troubleshooting of electrical s & electronics circuits..

Your electrical diagnostic ability still blows my mind! Been watching you for years and definitely have learned a lot. Gave me the confidence to tackle a head gasket job on a 07 Ram 1500 with the poo-tastic 4.7L. Thanks for sharing your infinite wisdom!