I will never understand the decision by Wizards to print cards directly into modern. I think it goes against the entire spirit of the format and they've basically dug their own grave for modern by printing those sets and they don't want to ban any of those cards because they need to sell them stupid packs. I wish those sets just never existed.

I'm with crim. Have a massive unbanning, then reprint all of those previously banned cards into modern horizons 3.

It’s weird to feel like 2 mana proactive creatures is too slow

The problem with trying to beat free spells, is your spells cost mana, so theyll have played theirs before you play yours lol.

This may be the most I’ve ever agreed with Crim.

Simple fix for modern, modern horizons+lotr are no longer modern legal. Now let the meta develop without cards designed for it.

Honestly I really want Seth to try Azorius or bant hatebears now

This convo reminds me that the Professor (TCC) has represented some of the worst design decisions in Magic over the last 5-10 years. He advocated for (1) a direct-to-modern set, (2) printing less “draft chaff” and powering up sets, (3) orienting premier sets to serve the commander audience…all disasters.

If we are going Yugioh anyway, how about handtraps: For example a 3 mana counter that is free if the enemy did not spend mana to cast the spell?

they'll soon add the gorilla's to the format! next card shown was simian spirit guide :D

Ban all straight to modern cards = Modern' back. This is such an easy thing to play locally as well, it's very easy for people to understand and agree to.

re: the lavinia, azorius renegade discussion- she is solid game in vintage... wild to think modern needs her, too!

I honestly think there might be legs to an azorius emeria pile again. Lavinia is a house, emeria itself is great to grind out all the value, some of the best sideboard options in the format. Downside is that it's a slow kill but I think it might be workable

Pioneer is now what early Modern was. I enjoyed the first ~8 years of Modern. I played Modern all the time because I was having fun. Then I stopped having fun, so I stopped playing Modern. Pioneer is the most fun I’ve had playing Magic in many years.

“Are we just old timers pining for a time gone by that’ll never return?” YES!!! Good video! Wrap it up! Good job guys!👍🏾

On the Lavinia note. I have like a 18-4 record online with a lavinia, esper sentinel, collected company, stoneforge deck. I also play some secret tech in stuff like geist of saint traft, voice or resurgence and some other hard to deal with threats.

Honestly maybe the answer is to just turn Modern into the new legacy. Keep out anything on the reserve list but print everything else into the format, and then embrace pioneer as the new version of Modern.

Double the sideboard size, Allows more cards to counter specific decks and fragile strategies.

Thanks for listening to the feedback for more fishmail!

They need to print cards that punishes playes for cheating mana, like a counterspell that cost 0 or 1 for a 0 mana spell, or a card with flash that you can play for 1 mana when they cast a 0 mana spell and deals damage equals to that cards mana value to its controller.

The easiest way to fix modern is to play vintage, all the pitch elementals are not so busted compared to ancestral and tinker

How about we print a leyline that counters spells that were not paid for in mana? Would that be a positive?

Crim has it right; Unless you're talking about banning 15+ cards, there is no saving modern. There are too many bad actors. Unban everything and let it fester.

orvar the all-form is good against grief. maybe the answer is azorius blink with orvar, lavinia and mommy of machines

Can we get a video of Richard playing pioneer for an hour or 2 (willing to do this less or multiple vids) he tries a bunch of decks or sticks with the most similar deck to his taste Can we more meta game discussions about historic Also can we get more conditional free but a good generic rate Such as if opponent does x u can play this for free but the amount u play is mostly fair for the effect , like what about selesnya hate bear that gets played for free from hand if your opponent played a zero mana card it can disrupt your opponent silence them Tax them name it , or how about a card that says if it is revealed from hand from an opponents effect u may discard it and gain some useful effect We need lavinia stapled to graffdiggers cage on a battle u dont need to flip so it has next to no removal u can use on it

41:41 Lavinia might take over Ravnica since Jace is "on vacation"

I have been talking about lavinia for years. Try adding adeline and some other humans to get your clock

I think that it would help a lot to bump up the side board to 20 cards. Just to have more answers. I also think that the unbanning of Preordain was genius to have a bit more card selection/advantage against scam. Maybe we need Ponder for mh3? Not sure how much I like the play patterns of cascade-beanstalk decks tho..

An idea I have is a new cycle of Leylines. I think having a white leyline that torpor orbs or a blue leyline that counters spells when no mana was spent to cast?

Punishing card draw is good in every format. Long live Sheoldred!

So Crim is definitely high in this video, right? 😳

I feel like people forgot the speed of modern combos increasing and the evoke elementals slowing them down

The only format worth playing is one where Big Red is playable.

Hi, everyone I think that some spot on free spell counter cards could help a lot. Just make a one mana blue counter for spell that don't have mana spent for it or some creature/enchantment or artefact that have a good effect in the same direction. An example could be a 1/1 or 1/2 that gives protection if a free spell is cast. Those cards would be great if free stuff became prevalent but not affect normal fair deck

Can we get a Cantrip "Nix" please. Same for additional mana and lands. That would give fair decks a chance

So many people saying ban all the straight to modern stuff and it is wild to me. There are so many things that are fun and good and fair in the set hidden underneath broken or stronger stuff in the format.

I like the idea of rotating modern horizons, but I think it would be interesting if they only rotated on a temporary basis. By doing a temporary rotation, you preserve people’s desire to keep their cards from the rotated sets since they’ll be playable in a year or 2. I’ve also thought the idea of rotating old standard sets or a core sets composed only of old standard cards into standard could fix the issues that people think it has. It would let us get more reprints and keep the format easier to buy into and help balance power levels by giving less viable strategies access to old, tried and true cards.

For the discussion around 58:00, that sounds like a WotC printed Cube format

The Codfather!!!

I like how Seth basically just said let’s play Legacy instead. Also the main problem with Modern in my opinion is the evoke elementals at least right now. You definitely don’t want to put Force of Will in modern because it’s evoke elementals but even more.

I legit own (outdated) Azorius Hammertime in paper, ride the wave Richard!

Richard is on to something with Lavinia, I thought the same when beanstalk became a deck, but currently the hatebears deck just isn't strong enough to counter evoke elementals. I would be really happy if there was a modern version of DnT, it is a pretty skill intensive deck even if you think it's just white weenie.

Wizards follows the money

Richard: Azorious doesn't have a finisher Also Richard, less than 10 minutes later: having Elesh Norn on the field feels impossible to beat

Doomwakes - Pure Modern could be looked into

Legacy is pretty good right now, probably the healthiest its been since mh1 tbh

The guys are onto something looking at cards like Lavinia. Wizards should print new cards in mh3 that do similar things, but are more competitive/synergistic with existing decks. The reason the elementals are so oppressive is that there are not enough ways to obstruct free spell strategies. all it would take is a few key cards spread through a couple of decks to police it. Just look at Dredge as an example.

What about a nice hatebear to nerf the evoke elementals? Like a {1}{G/W} 2/2 that just said “You and creatures you control have hexproof from creatures.” It wouldn’t stop you from getting your hand shredded on turn 1, but it would hamper Bowmasters and the Evokementals quite a bit.

Alright boys I got it. Monoblack coffers midrange. Sheoldred and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. Exiles all the convokers and beats down fast.

Phyrexian obliterator. “Dies to doomblade” but does a heck lot of damage if sticks

I think WoTC should really experiment by semi-limiting or limiting card numbers even outside of vintage. It could really help to disrupt the consistency of these kind of problematic decks and if it doesn’t work….well, just ban something 🤷🏻‍♂️

What about just rotating the modern horizons sets? When modern horizons 3 comes in, modern horizons 1&2 rotate out.

Richard has it right: it is the easy card draw that is the problem and why pitching cards is not even a sweat at all. In Legacy, pitching cards is still a cost because you can get blown out by Force of Will and then Wasteland-ed and not be able to get your cards back and then die to a quick clock. Modern has none of this, so the card draw and "on the body" free spells need to go. Ban Up the Beanstalk, The One Ring, Grief, Fury. And change that terrible rule about Cascade so that you skip casting Petty Theft and go straight to Crashing Footfalls.

Crim crowd surfing like karn

Pioneer just has all the powercrept cards without any good answes lol

Adressing richards point at 26 mins. You dont need an answer in every color. You need some ruling changes and some cheap or free or leyline type (if its in your initial hand put it in the battlefield) colorless answers to recurring problems, or zero cost with flash artifacts that prevent and effect (like graveyard or free spells or something like that). Grief would be a lot less potent if you could not retrieve it for a 1 black mana instant. It would just be a 2 for 1 thoughtsieze. There are plenty of ways. And up the beanstalk is mainly powerful because of stuff like evoke creatures and cascade shenanigans. If you have to pay for your spells, then up the beanstalk is not so powerful anymore. there are other cards that did that. Cards that had "when you play a creature draw a card" , "when you play an enchantment draw a card" and stuff like that. The format always dealt with those situations as they were menacing to the format.

"Murktide is a fair deck." >two mana 6/6 flyer Yeah, sure.

I remember being excited about a non rotating format when Modern first started, and a couple years ago I finally got the mana base for my Naya Bloodbraid zoo deck. I thought it would stay in the tier 1/2 zone, so I could finally do a tournament. Now it's not even viable anymore 🤷🏼

A friend of mine works at an LGS and I'll just say this: MH2 sells out within the week that we get our boxes in, every time.

Fury doesn’t need a ban. The only argument for its banning has been “it hits my pet deck”. Magic is better with answers and interaction. If your deck is trying to poop out a million weak bodies over the first few turns, you should run the risk of a blowout. It’s not like there aren’t plenty of protection spells. The play patterns of a scammed grief is one thing, but fury is keep more than already poorly positioned pet decks in check.

How do I submit decks for saffron to try

The easy fix is ban Fury. Format would change over night to being more balanced. The fun fix is I'd love them just unban a ton of cards. Give us Lurrus back. It wouldn't help Scam. Give us Splinter Twin. Give us Pod. Give us faithless looting. Give us Deathrite Shaman. Give us Dig Through Time, Give us Treasure Cruise Lets go! The main problem to me with Modern is there is no more viable budget options because you can't play little creatures. That's a problem for entry to the format. It's also impossible to go wide with any kind of token decks.

As much as I enjoy some of the supplemental set cards. Printing directly was definitely the downfall. Let cards trickle into other formats through standard

Are there versions of scam that run tainted strike for an easy win if Fury goes unblocked?

The reason why Legacy is so different than Modern is because of the massive card pool to choose from and inherently has "checks" built into it that are discovered over time. Has nothing to do with the power of the cards. Most of pre-8th edition cards are very weak by todays standards. Modern, currently, has access to some of the most powerful and efficient cards in the whole game, but doesn't have the checks that Legacy has or the ability to discover them because of the limited card pool. Some of these powerful cards have even promoted evolution within Vintage, but again Vintage has access to discoverable checks. The only way to mediate the "Modern" issue is to: 1) let it be but develop cards that are new and different, but not broken, and then allow the format to evolve naturally over time 2) Reprint known check cards from Legacy and Vintage that are targeted to specific issues the WotC need to correct (i.e. hydroblast/pyroblast for red/blue cards) 3) Unban cards that will forcefully change the format (i.e. artifact lands, skullclamp, etc.). Regardless of what is done, the power and/or complexity creep of cards is not good for any eternal format and that is where they should start at square 0.

Very interesting discussion, honnestly i quite like modern still the thing that was that woud slow it down would be a bit less card adventage, like beanstock. Because the real problem for the elemental is the fact that pitching is not a cost anymore

They should make Nix (counter target spell if no mana was spent to cast it) for 2 blue phyrexian, so can stop turn 1 Grief but doesn't have the mental misstep problem where it can always get itself

woo! more fishmail! :) (in future)

What do you guys think about a Spell Pierce but for creatures?

Unban artifact lands, jitte, punishing fire and pod. REALLY shake it up dawg get the ball rolling

Another idea would be to have some sort of colorless leyline for one-trick pony decks, that if in your hand would prevent some stupid effect. I say colorless to make it usable by decks from different color combinations. Something like a "leyline of grafdiggers cage" :D . Something like an artifact that can be dealt with at a later turn but that would hinder unfair decks such as scam. (from my previous post, cascading into suspend making you suspend instead of instantly resolving would also kill living end in most scenarios). I´m with the movement "MTG is not YuGiOh". I guess Aether Vial is the threshold of playing things for free... :D at least you have to wait and it will provide you an advantage at later turns. Things that wotc can do do make games feel more like games and less like rulebends and factual scams is the way to go.

Personally I'd ban: fury, grief, ToR, 3feri, 4 mana kharn and W&6

@Richard Lavinia could be played in a blue white Hammertime shell. Also just ban the free elementals and I think things would be manageable.

They solved it! The way to fix Modern is 0 mana Silence (hopefully an upload with audio comes soon)

Richard Azorius humans running Stern scolding. Doesnt counter fury or subtlety but it does counter grief and Solitude.

1:02:55 We should do MTG Goldfish Podcast Live for Episode 500!!!

Just ban Fury, Grief, Beans, and unban Twin. Rhinos and LE are fine. There is already plenty of interaction and counter play for those decks. Finally, print Pithing Needle but for triggered abilities. Boom problems solved.

Modern hit its high for me when Mardu Pyromancer was tier 1.

Hey! 15 mins into the video. I guess one of the main things is that the second best decks are more easily sideboarded against. Murktide can be killed, etc. The issue with scam is that it wins the game before you can even play since it goes to your hand before you even drop a land, multiple times. And it´s hard to sideboard against because exactly that. I also think modern could have more frequent bans so that the meta would keep shifting more frequently. Not just because of extreme deck power rates, but just for the format's health. Before this moment, meta decks would be meta for shorter periods because there were ways to beat it. The yu-gi-oh effect is real ... Also, another thing, when companions were an issue, WOTC changed the rulings and made you pay to get it in your hand or something, as it broke the game. So they solved it without tampering with the text on the card itself, just rulings. Maybe something could be done along that path too. for instance, maybe the rhino's could be made impossible to cascade into. Or now, the new card that allows you to rebound expensive cards that you pay the adventure cost only, and then you can rebound the full card. This is purely a rulings thing, right ? Wotc could just change this and say that suspend is not cascadable. And it shouldn't be. Makes no sense. If you want to cascade into it, fine, but suspended. Well, my 50 cents.... Great content btw ;)

Titan is playing otawara in mb only cause of elesh you bounce it end of turn and than you go in combo turn ;) its realy good against titan yes but the deck adjusted and its not unbeatable anymore its just hard to beat

I don't agree with Crim on a lot of things, but I do agree with Crim on the idea of just full send it. No Ban List Modern, Legacy staples so that Commander players buy your product, "fixed" versions of broken non-dual land reserved list cards (like 1-mana LED), just full send it. WOTC has definitely already decided what's in MH3, but for the future, just make Modern into Legacy but with shocklands.

I don't think all the Elementals are boogeymen maybe just Fury but I also wouldnt be upset if they were all axed. I have despite the state of modern found a successful token deck but it only works because it operates at instant speed, has counter magic, and a legitimate immediate wincon with Pollen-Shield Hare. That card is way underrated strong. I've 20'd someone on turn four in Modern thanks to it.

8 rack is a viable option against cascade rhinos because it runs enough removal

More fishmail please! 🎉

You didn't even ask who crim saw at the concert!

We need an anti discard card that's actually good. Punish people who play 12x Thoughtseize with a threat that must be played when your hand is targeted for discard.

I'm not even interested in Modern, but, i love the banter here on MTGGoldfish. For my two cents, Modern is this massive collection of cards yet to play it is comprised of like 4-6 decks. I was disappointed at the lack of Diversity compared to the amount of cards available.

bring aspiringspike or other modern content creators onto the show!

41:53 this is an argument for including wasteland

First off guys, Lavinia is in my humans deck since hogaak summer. and sanctifier en vec since printed. running augur of autumn to screw with opponents ragavans too and for the card advantage. MH3 card to "fix" modern LMK what I'm missing Leyline of NO WUBRG if its in your opening hand you may begin the game with it on the field Indestructible Ward pay 20 life or discard your hand you and other permanents you control have ward (3) If an opponent would cast a card without paying mana equal to or greater than its Manavalue it is exiled instead If an opponent would draw more than one card on their turn they do not Creatures entering or leaving the battlefield dont cause abilities to trigger

We are one god damned Ravagan or Bowmasters away from seeing Swords, FoW and Wasteland on Modern. Mark my words!

Per the Simpsons reference of just printing "idealized solutions to things", it's clear that the answer needs to be systemic instead of individual. For example, here is a systemic idea that I believe would FAIL: A version of Madness-0, where you can only cast the card for its madness cost (of zero) if an OPPONENT discards it. That would be "specific scam hate". But it would also leverage free plays, so I don't know... It's a hyper specific bandaid, but it's the kind of ability that could be printed on numerous cards, although probably not in every color. Here's an idea I like more: Reintroduce the Absorb mechanic! To help differentiate between direct-creature-damage and edict effects or -X/-X, creating a MH3 which includes numerous X/1s with Absorb 1 (or Absorb X which scales with your board state), you can "absorb the furies". Again, this is a hyperspecific bandaid that wouldn't actually COUNTER the fury, it would just politely resist it. Thus, I think this solution is still par-or-worse, and will just add to the "too-diverse" problem mentioned in the podcast. As for printing specific individual cards that cure the format, that would be even harder to design... That's why I recommend systemic mechanics like Madness-0, or Absorb, but those just look at rakdos scam and say "plz stop". It does nothing to address the fact that rakdos scam is a but of a gravity well that punishes every deck which doesn't acknowledge it.

how about a counterspell except you can cast it for free if you exile another blue card from your hand?

You guys might think that it’s nostalgia that makes you want to go back to old modern but as a 14 year old who’s played magic for like 2 years old school modern is my favorite format or meta game I’ve ever seen. I love Jund, gifts Storm, and splinter twin and I’ve never played with those before.

I think Lavinia could be played in bant infect as well as bogles

All these issues come back to the same problem with faithless looting.

There needs to be a free uncounterable spell, that only counters spells if no mana was spent to cast them.

I feel like Crim was making a point while joking. Is modern salvageable?

make a 3 mana 1UU Counter Target Spell if an opponent cast a spell without paying mana, you may pay 1 life and exile 1 blue spell instead.

I kind of think a ban list overhaul would help. Unban everything, and slowly add back the things that are the biggest problem. I just dont think they would do it and the price aspect would scare a lot of people away.