Well said! 👍 I have ordered a so called ‚hybrid bow‘ made in Indonesia, that has arrived beginning of March 2022. I have always seen the horn layer as decoration. The bow has been shot a few times since then and worked fine. End of August 2022 I have noticed small gaps between the horn layer and the fiberglass along one side of the bow (gaps depth between 1-5mm). In my humble opinion the reason is the very different behavior of horn and fiberglass with respect to humidity. The horn dries out- especially in dry climates like we have here in Germany (sometimes I measure around 20% rel. humidity vs. 80% rel. humidity in Indonesia). The fiberglass is not reacting to humidity as far as I can measure. Hence it’s clear, that the shrinking horn will cause high stress in the glue, connected to the stable fiberglass. If I would have thought about it, I could have imagined upfront 😁 The horn on the bow looks still beautiful, but isn’t beneficial for the performance- I‘m totally with Ronald. In my case I tried to fill the gaps at the edges with recommended epoxy. Of course I am unsure, if I was able to fill the gaps completely. Most likely not. 😉 Furthermore, I will wrap real sinew around critical spots to prevent the horn getting off. (Separating the sinew fibres will take me ages…) So, I‘m not yet done. When I have finished, I’ll show and make a short video about it… The question is: could the bowyers know the issues upfront? I think, it’s hard for the Indonesian bowyers to foresee, since they always have high humidity and the horn remains flexible. The customer feedback comes months later after the bow has been shipped and the Indonesian bowyers usually can’t simulate dry climate conditions… I can’t imagine, that an Indonesian bowyer is able to affort a climate chamber for testing and experimenting with other glues or horn layer thicknesses… In the end I think, the hybrid version of bows might only work, if the bow is kept in similar climate conditions and - as Ronald stated - the horn layer is thin.

These bows are just a gimmick to charge more money, that's all.

agree, i red an article on hornbows ( in this case ottoman ones) and there is written that a horn bow starts to make sense, efficiency wise at a drawweight of 80lbs + because from here on the strength of the bow will increase very much bit the limbthickness and weight will go up linear. So a Selfbow can be more effective on lower poundages just because its lighter in mass. Also agree on the „hybrid“ bows

The Truth is Ugly... Ronald out here laying out the facts. Love this guy

Hi I make arrows with whitetail deer antler inserts. I do this mainly to strengthen my nocks for carving shapes into them and for absorbing the impact of the bowstring. It also looks pretty. You mentioned that epoxy glue doesn't work that well with horn/antler, and you're right. One of the best modern glues to combine wood to antler is resorcinol glue/cascophen because, even though it's water based, it works excellently to bond the two and stays solid despite their oily qualities. It's considered the "gold standard" of wood glues for its ability to join wood to wood or horn/antler to wood. However, it is challenging to work with because it does not fill gaps like epoxy... it must be clamped well along all parts of its use, and the joinery must be excellent. If gaps are visible, sealing them with varnish (in my case spar urethane) tends to close those out well, but it takes several dips and sanding in-between. And there entails one of the main issues with epoxy because epoxy invites less than stellar craftsmanship to a device that undergoes massive amounts of stress. It is a very forgiving adhesive. Because epoxy is gap-filling, it hides a lot of mistakes and may convince the woodworker that their work, technique, and the characteristics of the layers of wood or whatever are acceptable for a high stress device, when in fact they might not be. Plus, epoxy can liquefy as low as 120⁰F and does not do too well with moisture. That spells trouble for bows that are meant to be used and not just hung up to decorate a wall. Resorcinol glue, on the other hand, does not do well to seal wood. I sealed some arrows with it, which was a mistake and a valuable lesson because wooden arrows require straightening, often with heat. This causes the wood to expand, and while sealing with a spar varnish would do well with expansion, it does not with resorcinol glue and causes tiny fractures and cracks to develop in the outside sealing layer if resorcinol is used to seal. Furthermore, even just the twisting/torque that the arrow experiences between you and the target can cause cracks in a sealant layer of resorcinol. So it's tricky to work with and I dont recommend it beyond use in putting horn inside the nock (if we're talking about their application to arrows. It's a glue intended for plywood and boats.) I'd be interested to see how it works with bows, but I don't think it would work well because they undergo lots of stress. Anyway, just wanted to bounce some ideas off the wall with you. Thanks for the video. It was enlightening and I learned a lot.

You’re the Man Ronald! The truth shall set them free and protect their wallets . And for the Hybrid Bowyers, make better quality bows or better quality disclaimers.🙏. That’s a shame knowing this now, because I think they have some pretty bows. The thing is , my prey/enemies won’t care how pretty my bow is.

Thank you!

Totally agree with you Roland I do have 2 Mongolian composite bows which take time to adjust the limbs .I do prefer the modern materials for efficiency but in a Mongolian model.Love my Mariner,Alibow,and Yuen bows.

love this, someone speaking truth. the retort of course might be where to draw the distinction, because by your logic, if carried forward without demarcation lines, why shoot traditional bows at all when compounds are the ultimate in efficiency. that said, I'd never consider dropping that kind of cash on a horn bow, I don't even want wood in my bows, I view the bow as a tool and a tool should be dependable.

You are absolutely right friend! For me the biggest problem is self-deception, if you like a "hybrid" bow for aesthetics that's fine, but you must assume that it's just that, aesthetics. And as you say, the horn layer should be very thin, providing only an aesthetic effect. I like hornbows, but if one day I buy one it will be because of the historical value that I find in it, I know for a fact that it will never be as efficient as a modern bow. But knowing how delicate and expensive they are, I don't know if that day will come... I find your videos very interesting, greetings from Barcelona!

Does Grozer biocomposite count as hybrid or as decorated laminated bow? There are lots of review of them on KZfaq (and they seem to perform well enough) but also some disturbing stories about delaminating often etc.

So basically the fiberglass drag the horn layer when firing an arrow?

Indeed. The horn hybrid from numair that Armin reviewed came with a crack. You could tell how thin the horn was and yes it was dry.

Good video. I like your sense for reason. What would be then your sugesstion for good modern bow for shooting thumb release without rest ? Preferably short bow with draw lenght about 31"

Where did you get that bow in the beginning of the film. That fiberglass bow looks sick

Regarding full classic horn-wood-sinew bows, are they not more efficient, in terms of speed, than modern material bows as they can shoot very light arrows? Justin was shooting a 4gpp arrow from his 114# Koppedrayer Ming bow, and I've heard of several accounts of Turkish horn bows shooting 5gpp or so, and even lower for flight arrows, so I considered this one of the stronger benefits of a horn bow. Also, what about bow geometry? Say if a laminate bow is made which is not as wildly recurved as a classic horn bow which are usually more C shaped, wouldn't this mean that the functional draw length of the bow resides in a lower tension region, and a horn bow has to be flexed much more to brace and thus has a much higher tension functional draw length? To understand better what I mean - you know when you pluck the string of a bow which already has very high tension, it doesn't vibrate like the string of a guitar, it's more of a quick ping sound due to the tension applied by the bow, it seems that many laminates don't achieve the bow geometry needed to get to this high tension. I haven't tried them all, but just from what I've experienced and also observed.

If our ancestors did have the materials that we have today they would surly decide for the modern materials.

Divine bow, no vibration, spritual, hypersonic arrows, Chinese Instagram meme chunky guy vibes

Nice said. I see it similar. OK, i like horsebows. But i don't need historical correctness. It could bei invented new for better Performance in my opinion. New Design with new Materials. Thats what i like about the j-bow. This will be my next one.

I don't need to finish this video at all. After around 10 minutes I am convinced never to mention horn bows anymore in my life

Isn’t horn and sinew composite bow meant to be more of a way to support the wood so it does’nt break, not so much meant to add lots of strength? Elastic modulus of both horn and sinew are far lower than wood. Elastic modulus of fibreglass and carbon on the other hand is 4 to 5 times higher than wood, therefore better suited for making a bow. For esthetics and historical motivated reasons I still love horn bows.

As an archer, I hear many myths about hornbows, and then I buy chrono, and 1st hornbow, 2nd hornbow, 3rd hornbow, while I don't consider my self expert, and I still consider hornbow a marvel of old times technology, and I still own several to respect how the old archer train, as sentimental weapons, BUT I don't really like shooting hornbow, I do shoot them sometimes, just for sentimental value. For hybrid, let just say, I never want to buy them.

I love the idea or ‘romance’ of horn+bamboo+wood+sinew bow; BUT, natural material is susceptible to natural defect. For practical reasons, I’ll buy a carbon bow (ILF limbs)

Now I understand why Nawalny uses fake horn on his laminate bows!

Yeah the Truth is ugly and painfull. You will be called "business destroyer" by some "super smart" archers and bowyers...

In terms of ridiculous hybrid bows. I’ve heard of bows where one limb is a recurve and the other is straight (S-Shaped Andaman bow) why combine recurve and straight limb on opposite ends lol

Some very basic engineering knowledge would make this very clear. I think some people just want to put faith in the past consistently.

Daylite is the one ballsy enough to make 130lb bows out of modern laminate, don’t know how durable those bows are in the long run but modern lamination methods have yet to be trialed and refined at historical poundages unlike wood or horn sinew, and all the inefficiency talk can be mitigated by upping the arrow weight, unacceptable in flight archery but not everything in archery is about cast distance. Your rant can be directed both ways, modern bowyers are using modern materials to imitate old bow typologies, and most have got wood or bamboo strips wedged between the layers, which looks pleasing but decreases function. My point is you should have confined you frustration at the “bio-composite” hype, unless some one in the name of science is willing to take off the horn plates of a real composite bow and replaces it with fiberglass and demonstrates that it will indeed last a lifetime, idk maybe you will?

Hybrid by slapping a layer of horn? No thank you. Just because you know how to and can do it, doesn't mean that you SHOULD do it Better use that hard earned money to buy laminated bow, which performs better than efg and "hybrid".

Bio composite hybrids are certainly just a marketing gimmick and I don’t know any serious bowyers who think highly of them. I’ve never found a trade secret in bowmaking that was not just a gimmick that’s been done over and over before. Bowyers who promote them are either charlatans or naive about the deep history of the craft.

This is an old video, but rewatching it i find a lot that i disagree with. A lot of stuff i dont like hearing that i do agree with of course, but also (maybe just for the controversy) a lot of unwarranted slamming on horn sinew composites. Like lets walk through it, flight archery is an okayy measurement of a bows efficiency, but if you look at a flight bow, its hardly recognisable. If someone says they want to get into archery and they want "the best bow" you cant hand them a 100+lb footbow thats unwarrantied and liable to breakage. It is the most efficient, but the best? Thats not a good bow. I'd argue no flight bow is. As for horn/sinew as a material, using flight archery records to stay consistent with the video, 2021 flight archery, primitive turkish winner Ivar Malde made a 530m shot. In the open/modern aisiatic category, the winning shot was 538m. Thats such a minute difference that i think in honesty, it comes down to the fact that there are just less people shooting horn sinew. Its expensive and delicate, compared to cheaper modern bows that you can mass produce in high draw weights, etc. Certainly not an example of horn being left in the dust. . So what about other bows then? Well, horn sinew outperformed all selfbows and yumis, and lost to compounds, crossbows, and open conventional flight bows. So alright, i guess if you want to shoot the best bows, traditional bows are already disqualified. . But thats kind of the point. People dont shoot traditional bows for the efficiency. But if youre shooting a traditional bow, horn and sinew is damn good, and way more traditional. . Which i guess brings me to horn/fibreglass stuff. I am at a point where i am heavily desensitised to most, if not all, modern wood/fibreglass laminated bows. I honestly cannot tell the difference between a mariner, spearman, simons bow company or alibow bow provided theyre all of a similar shape. They all shoot about as fast as one another, about as smooth as one another, about as much handshock as one another. But i can certainly feel the difference with full fibreglass bows! Fibreglass is heavy and the siyat on the end usually heavy too by comparison, and theres a lot of handshock and lost efficiency there. The only other bow ive used that really felt unique is my grozer biocomposite turkish. Now its pretty much just a jazzed up laminated bow, I had to take some leather off it to repair the arrow pass at one point, and the construction is honestly nice. The horn plate inner is thick enough that its not just decorative, and it goes right to the two layers of the wooden core, which then have a layer of fibreglass after that, and the layer of sinew/epoxy fibreglass stuff after that. It feels nice to draw, smooth to shoot, and it doesnt have a layer of fibreglass on the belly of the bow like most modern laminated bows do, so clearly the horn plate stuff is doing its job. Do i think that a full horn/sinew bow is better than modern materials? If you want to do traditional archery, then absoloutely. If you want to send a projetile as far as possible? No. Buy a gun. I think for horn/fibreglass, the opposite of what the video states is true. I think firstly, its not really possible for the horn to be decorative if the horn delaminating causes problems. After all, if i took the paint off my car it would drive the same. Take the horn off these bows, and assuming it doesnt break, youre left with a pure fibreglass bow. Having shot a horn fibreglass hybrid once myself, i can say that theyre much nicer than a pure fibreglass bow. About as nice as the good laminated bows. . So... if horn and sinew remain top of the line for traditional aisitaic archery, and fibreglass is known for being pretty terrible by itself as a bow material, and so you combine it with horn, and it gets better than it would be if it were just pure glass, then thats good! . Thats kind of the crux of it, i think. Is a horn/glass hybrid better than if it were just fibreglass? Yes. So, its actually not a bad hybrid. Carebows stuff is cheaper than a lot of the high end laminates too. . . All that having been said, laminated bows are generally prone to delamination especially at higher draw weights. I do think this problem is exemplified in horn/glass bows because the usual method of carving grooves into the horn to get a good surface area isnt someyhing that works with fibreglass. So more prone to delamination i assume, and it seems like this is the common experience. That .. that would be about it though.