As a Mtber I agree.

3.2 times? Hard to argue with that logic. Thanks!

I would discard the #2 and #3 reasons, as it is more about stem length As for the brakes they all must be operated with one finger, disregarding flat or drops - if you need more, those are bad brakes, not handlebars Flat bars don't offer different positions, but only variations of a single option, if you consider wrist and shoulder rotation. Drop bar dominance is even more clear, if you pick only positions when you can operate the contols In general though this video and whole argument can be condensed to the statement that flat bars originate from and get used on mountain bikes and are connected with all corresponding tech advancements, while road bikes have not caught up, so the drops are inheretely flawed. But personally, I find pursuit handlebars the absolute best

this video is poorly titled, you keep comparing road bikes vs mountain bikes. instead of the actual differences in the handlebars

This is my favorite channel for super bike nerd content. Love it!

😂 True indeed!

James Acaster is that you?

Great video!

Most manufacturers of drop bars also make flat bars.

Totally agree - when I heard that exclusion I wasn't sure whether to bother continuing

Because it is extremely subjective and will very much depend on the person.

@@michaeljensen6805to claim ergonomics is a subjective thing is wrong.

​@necromax13 not saying you are wrong, just genuinely confused. Ergonomic means "designed for efficiency and comfort in the working environment." Wouldn't it be the case that different body proportions, levels of flexibility, levels of strength, and other factors would result in one style of bar being ergonomic for one rider but not ergonomic for another?

@@Rivercityrides Ergonomics, as a byproduct of orthopedics, is in fact not subjective. It's science.

Wasn’t totally forgotten, imho. Bar ends and bullhorns were mentioned, which mob riders and tourers (in my limited experience) have been using for years for this very reason

It wasn't forgotten, it's a matter of ergonomics, which OP said he wasn't going to cover. And anyway, 90° vertical grips are just as egonomically awkward as 90° horizontal ones. My hands don't naturally rest at either of those angles. And, since you brought up the computer mouse analogy, if the vertical grip was so much better, then joystick mice would be more popular. But they're not; they're a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the computer mouse market. Indeed, most "ergonomic" and "gaming" mice aren't completely horizontal or completely vertical. They tend to place the hand at a slight angle relative to the surface they're on, e.g. the Microsoft Intellimouse, by far the most comfortable computer mouse I have used. That is a much more natural hand position, IMHO. If this logic held to bicycle handlebars, a slightly canted angle downward and perhaps towards the rider would be more comfortable than either a flat bar or a drop bar. (these are called "alt bars" I think? Idk, I'm not a cyclist) And that design would still be predominantly a flat bar one, just with some minor modifications.

also gear shifters come in a variety for both styles. my classic road bike with drop bars has bar-end friction shifters which let me shift several gears at once and my partner's modern flatbar commuter has push button gears which allow only one shift at a time

@VojtaHry You can click on a vertical mouse without inducing an horizontal sliding movement, I have been doing it for the past 6 years… It's not about being able or not being able to use horizontal mouses, it's about the fact that when you spend up to 10 hours a day on a computer, ergonomical flaws can't be ignored anymore. No doubt that your average Facebook mom can live with a poorly designed computer attire, for lightweight use.

@@DJstarrfish When you grab a hammer to put down a nail, you go up and down vertically, or left and right horizontally ? Which one gives you the more force for the least energy ? It's a stretch to imagine that the most sensible/clever design would be the popular one. If that was true, we would all use Dvorak keyboards, and yet we are all still stuck the QWERTY/QWERTZ/AZERTY keyboards layouts, designed specifically to be unefficient as to avoid letters to get stuck on typewriter. Just check at how radius-cubitus attach to the elbow… any horizontal position implies to have them twisted at the wrist end. If you keep them parallel over the length of the forearm, you end up with a vertical wrist. Sure, a slight angle might be better than 100% upright, but still, 100% horizontal is nonsense. As a cyclist, I have put bullhorns on my bike, but I can't use them as much as I want because brakes are still on the flatbar. Doesn't matter for a daily commute, but swallowing 130 km in 2 days, you feel the pain growing on day 2. Actually, in ultra-enduro races, people even go as far as putting aero bars designed for triathlon, not so much for the aero position, but simply to relax their wrists and get their weight on their forearms.

I've put bar ends on the inner side and covered them in bar tape. Best of both worlds and dirt cheap.

That extra reach and hand on hoods makes drops more comfortable. There are flat bar handlebar options but they are very expensive. You can pick up drops anywhere. This channel is focused on bike packing/gravel riding there are reasons why so many people use drops. Not body is racing road races on flat bars.

My bike is an old school bike I guess Mongoose Crossways 225 I put drop bars on that written it's on every surface I could on road off road never had problem with control very responsive I use traditional rim brakes never had to use all fingers breaking just index fingers only I do not use bar tape either his argument doesn't come to anything I also have ultra low gear range on back climbing Hills as well and high gears for good acceleration

Angry roadie noises

🤣

james acaster? :D

@@juschtn I mean, most of this is not really that relevant to roadies. Drop bars are still better for the most part if all you ride is road. Most of these reasons are applicable if you ride dirt but generally the steering, shifting and braking on drops is more than enough for most roads and as the guy mentioned, they're good aerodynamically too. Plus the hoods and the drops both can access the brakes which is not something offered by most of the aero flat bar designs mentioned

wide flat bars get uncomfortable to hold quickly. not having to splay your arms to the side means that its easier to support yourself.

Drops are also easy on my elbows

Same. My favorite at the moment is Cinelli Largo. Most comfortable handlebar Ive ever used.

Flat bars; aching shoulders, tingling wrists, most uncomfortable, end of story.

@@miniac60 I'm all for drop bars too, but couldn't the problems you describe be resolved using a swept-back flat bar?

I’m the exact same man. First mtb I was already going into a tuck.

Butterfly

I'm sticking with drop bars so I can tuck and enjoy substantially less wind resistance going down hills or into headwinds.

I'm glad to hear drop bars work better for you ergonomically! I personally find both to be comfortable. 💪🏼

I find drop bars to be too far forward which makes reaching the brake levers hard while being able to use the advantage of brake lever leverage only in lowest position on the drops which doesn't get used due to being too low.

@@uvwuvw-ol3fg That just sounds like a bad set up.

@@uvwuvw-ol3fg drop bars should be considered along with your bike length..

@@uvwuvw-ol3fg maybe have a shorter stem

Impaling hazard, be safe

My understanding is that traditional MTB barends went our of fashion because of how easily they can get caught in a branch.

​​@@FrostbikerOne thing that didn't help bar ends was the fact that riser bars became fashionable, and bar ends look goofy on risers. Iook at any MTB from the mid 90s and it always had straight flat bars if bar ends were fitted.

So, are you in the market for a gravel bike or an MTB? because bombing down descents of any skill level isn't the case use for GRAVEL bikes. An mtb with alt bars does it for what you're claiming you'll be doing.

@@necromax13 I'm pretty in tune with what a gravel bike is used for and by NO MEANS am I trying to be snarky in ANY WAY at all. All I meant was descending over roots, rocks, washouts, etc., was something I felt would be somewhat sketchy on drop bars coming from 25+ yrs of straight mtbing. I plan on doing some off road bike-packing and a gravel set-up such as a Salsa Cuthroat would be a good fit for the type of riding I would be encountering. While flat bars are a good choice I also plan on doing rides on railway trails where drop bars would give me more options to cut down on hand fatigue as well as allow my back and neck angles to be in different positions along the way. "bombing descents" may have painted the wrong type of picture I have in mind, but there is no doubt there will be features more suited for mtbing than straight gravel, but... That is half the fun. I appreciate the response. Happy trails. Cheers!!

It sounds like you may have the same experience as myself. With most flat bars, they put my back at an odd and uncomfortable angle. I need to be very upright or stretched out over drop bars.

I hear you, I rode 100 km to the cabin yesterday on the flat bar bike because it has fenders and it might rain, there’s no place to put my damned hands except for the one. I’m much more relaxed on long rides with the drops where there’s at least 4 different positions.

@@PRH123 I just did 110km on flats and don't feel any discomfort or soreness at all. It's all just personal preference.

@@iddra1868 no arguments there!

@@iddra1868 sure, I’m not saying I felt any soreness or discomfort as such then or now, I support myself with my back, and not arms…. it for me is just more relaxed and comfortable with drops on a long distance road ride…. for an English century would prefer them… i actually have 3 types of bars on my 3 bikes, each has their strengths.. drops, straight flat (winter), and the Deviant Mini with 15 degree sweep, that I ride yesterday…

It’s unfortunate this isn’t generally something a person can know until they’ve potentially invested a lot of money into a bike.

If your neck hurts from riding with drop bars then you need a better bike fit. Likely a shorter reach and a higher stack. That specific problem is unlikely due to the bar type.

You can just easily cut your handlebar, there are videos on youtube on this

If you haven't ever piloted a recumbent, you're missing out on some serious, mile-munching comfort on two wheels. They're also very fast, faster than diamond frame bicycles.

Mtb fanatics? Wtf. Just ride whatever you want and let others enjoy their own things old dude.

Bars might have been too far forward, causing your weight to shift more into your hands.

Ironically drop bars are great for urban area's to ride in between cars (and for parking the bike next to others on the bike rack) and where wind is a large factor. I've commuted on both, however being more upright on a flat or alt-bar is better for visibility. You can be comfortable with either bar, but this usually means you're more upright in either case. Being upright is never aero. It's totally possible to bend your elbows and get low with either bar.

@@SurpriseMeJT the best thing people can do for visibility is to use actually appropriate clothing, lights and reflectors. A lot of roadbikers, especially, seem to have some kind of vanity related to that which i never quite understood.

Biomechanics are far more complex than your resting arm pose! I'm not even going to pretend I understand it all though, so I'll leave it at that. 😂

Agreed, but there is still personal variation. I can't do straight bars, as they give me wrist and elbow problems if I use them for long duration. Being able to shift positions is best, I've tried all, but now I mostly use the old fashioned dutch (grandma-bike) handle bar for touring..

@@frederik0014 I have the same problem with straight bars. Have hand and wrist discomfort after 15 minutes so added bar ends and inner extensions on my MTB when I used it for touring. That means the arm doesn’t have to rotate inwards. It’s more natural. Changing my hand position so palm is inward rather than palm down is the only way I can ride any distance. Putting the hands on top of a straight/flat bar turns the whole arm from the shoulder and it feels impinged and I get tingles are sore arms, wrist, hands quickly like a nerve is impinged. But two years ago I built a new touring bike based on a Lynskey titanium gravel frame and use Pro medium flare drop bars. Problem solved. I’ll use the tops sometimes for change of position but on the hoods I’m good for 6+hrs.

@@Cyclingabout I just know what works for me I guess and my Physio (who is a serious cyclist) took me through it and looked at the function of my arm. Hold your arms out in front with palms inward (like on hoods) then turn them palm down flat (like on tops or flat bar). That turns the whole arm from the shoulder and for me and many others that gives an impinged feeling. Everything gets tight in the arms, nerves feel impinged and the arm from the hand up fatigues and starts tingling quickly. I’ve got friends with the same issue. I’ll use tops or flat bar a bit but just for a position change, but moving to bar ends, inner extensions or hoods gives immediate relief. I’ve known this for yrs and assumed it was the sane for everyone which is why so many interesting touring bar shapes have been developed.

Here's another one: do a push up. What is your natural hand position then? As you can see, it's not that simple.

Wow, thank you! I'm always aiming to be the most thorough on every topic I cover, and I'm really glad to see there's actually demand for it too.

I was in the same boat with you. The flat bar's grip just don't have the same level of ergonomics as drop bar. it's due to the nature position of the hands. You might look into the drop bar extension for flat bar or put bull horn or change into drop bar.

Yeah, I find flat bars are easier on my back but harder on by wrists, because I'm stuck with only one hand position.

Spirgrips give you that hybrid hand position where your index and middle finger hold the "horns" while you can still reach your brake levers with the ring and pinky. You can't do a power emergency brake, but for daily feathering of the brakes it works fine. Haven't tried innerbarends yet.

So, did you ever get to finishing up your design?

@@necromax13 I've tried dealing with a number of different companies both for the custom frame and the handlebars. I have to admit that it is such an overwhelming thing to manage between the money, the engineering and the quality control that I'm trying to use my industry connections to convince a brand I like and trust to do something with my designs.

I use wide flat bars with old school bar ends. Works a treat for me.

I agree. Flat bars today are light years advanced compared to the '80s and '90s. There is a plethora of ingenious flat bar designs on the market today.

the flat or riser bars are a treat off-road but they really suck at speed or into headwind.

@@jamesmedina2062 try this, rest your forearms on teh top of your bars and clasp your hands. You now have the TT position!

​@@fegless69 I use them as "bar midles" for aero position.

the drop bar position let's you lean your weight on the inside of the turn, directly on top of CG, it's very stable, flat bars will go all over the place.

Personally I don't see any difference looking side to side with either bar or under a shoulder to look back on a drop vs looking over it on my drop bar bike. Actually If I think about it I think I'm am more aware in a lower position because my head is angled down and thus requires a smaller turn to either side to see behind. But also understand, if associating an upright stance with awareness, a drop bar bike rider can get just as upright as a flat bar rider by getting on the hoods or bar tops. Granted, looking around in general will always be an issue for people with neck flexibility issues and if that's the case they will probably prefer the less "aggressive", more heavily-seated position their flat bar offers.

In a flat bar you are way more agile, which makes it better for urban bikes since you need to do aggressive turns between vehicles, trees, people etc. in a drop bar you are slower turning the bike and you have less agility. Drop bars are great for the road only, going just in one single line, to rest for your wrists and have more aerodynamics. But if you want versatility, a flat bar is better

As someone who rides both mountain bikes and road bikes I could not disagree more about drops being better at high speed. I find drops very twitchy compared to non drop bars.

@@garyboyle695 I have personally had bad experiences with flat bars and descending at high speeds, precisely because of the centre on gravity being higher. However, riding with my hands on the drops and descending at 60km/h feels far safer than a flat bar as I am able to pull the brakes safely without fearing flying over the handle bars. That's my experience, obviously, and perhaps you have a different configuration on your bikes.

@@AlexanderTanned I think another factor is no matter how steep the grade, the upright and wide posture on flat bar makes you like a kite in the air and your top speed maxes out so that makes it safer in a way. Of course suspension and fatter tires on my mountain bike with slicks also make descents pretty damn safe. Drops feel more exciting because you feel the road more and your top speed is higher. You are more of an arrow than a kite! Plus your 100 PSI narrow tires do roll much faster.

Drop bars have three. In the hoods drops and near the stem. Flats have three. regular, bar ends, close to stem. THEN unlike drops you can attach TT bars or bar end/cow bars, back handles like some tourers etc. You potentially have 5 or more psoitions on a flat bar and can even add DROP attachments to gain them.

@@AlexanderTanned As you say it must be how we set our bikes up, I always use a much shorter stem with a flat bar which moves the weight backwards and gives you more control.

Completely agree on the poor ergonomics of riding out of the saddle with a flat bar. One option is adding innerbarends/spirgrips to your flat bar to approximate the hand position of riding on the hoods of a dropbar.

I will add that with the wider grip the pectoral muscles are in the middle of their range while on drops you are maxing their flexion. So, I think thats another reason why riding for hours at a more upright position with flats is more comfortable for long duration riding

@@jamesmedina2062 thanks..it will be great I think..

Thank you for mentioning the name of those barends, I was trying to figure that out.. I like the angle of them and think they might work better with a swept back bar vs other barends I've tried. I really like a barend position which is either neutral or slightly pointing inboard which is easy to get on standard flatbars but not on the swept back type. There's the GC-1 Ergon grips that Alee suggests with his namesake handlebars but that doesn't give me a barend, which I'd want inboard of the grips anyway for that "riding in the hoods" feel.

inner barends is one of the silliest word constructions ive seen yet. Lets just call them horns, something which is not at the end of a bar cannot be called barend.

@@Exgrmbl maybe when you've designed and patented a unique ergonomic component and are selling them internationally, you can give your invention a more sensible name. 😉

@@davidrowe8747 fair enough. I guess it really is not any sillier than clipless pedals which you clip into.

Agreed. A lot of the points in this video cover cycling on rough terrain & unpaved roads, where drop bars do not fare well. In this scenario, you'll usually be cycling in an upright position. Flat bars will be more suitable. For road bicycles that will be used on paved tracks, roads, high speeds, with fewer expected stops at traffic lights, pedestrian crossings & stop signs... drop bars fare better.

This is a point I've overlooked! You can technically have control of your brakes from three different positions on drop bars provided you use cross/inline brake levers. I'll add it to the written version on my website, thanks. I'll take wide bars on my tandem any day, however. My upper body feels noticeably less fatigued after I fit flat bars to my touring tandem!

He did say that’s subjective, he was talking about this objectively.

@@michaelb9664 ergonomics go far beyond comfort and as a science in itself has defined objective measures

@@feedbackzaloop but both flat bars and drop bars are ergonomic. The preferences regarding comfort or the overall positioning of levers and shifters between both types of bar are personal and subjective.

@@michaelb9664 Yeah, depends on what you need really. I find that flat bars give more brake control and maneuverability over terrain. drop bars are worse in both those aspects but triumph in terms of comfort in touring and endurance.

@@michaelb9664 here I'm not saying that one is more ergonomic over another, as I personally don't know for myself, and find it questionable how you can make such short, simple, definitive statement. Point is, one can analyse the handlebar designs with regards to ergonomics _objectively_ and if it takes a scientific approach, this might be the best if not the only YT channel to perform this. What I can predict though, is that variations within the types make variation between types insignificant.

that has more to do with the height of the bars than the shape of the bars. If you are bent over flat bars, and there are mountain bikes with aggressive riding positions, you'll still get a sore neck.

@@jonathanho4272 Yeah. I tried a Brompton with the flat S type bar and that felt extreme for me. But in general, road bikes are far harder to find something more relaxed and comfortable for me.

Adding inner grips to a flat bar drastically reduces safety, compared to riding in the hoods on a drop bar, because you cannot easily reach your breaks.

But that's when you enters all the options of "flatbars"

It is a bit weird going back to flat bars after getting used to drops.

When riding my CX bike (I don't have a road bike) and not in an immediate situation where I might need to brake, I am almost always on the tops. I am only in the drops when really sprinting. I have the least amount of pressure point discomfort on the tops. But, I road mountain bikes until I was 30 before I got my first drop bar bike so I could extend my racing season from MTB to CX. I think a lot of what is "comfortable" has to do with what you are used to. I'm most comfortable on the tops, which is basically a tighter flat bar position.

Too wide by default but you can always trim. I used to have some Ergons.. whatever the longest ones are and I cut down my city bike's handlebars to the shortest possible width to handle the Ergons, have mounting space for lights, and my levers.. wish I had measured it before it was stolen but never thought to.. it was still fairly wide relative to drop bars but I'd guess somewhere in the 650mm area which with the right stem length wasn't bad on the shoulders. I had the primary grip, the outer elbow, the main part of the bar end, and a nice 4th position where I could lay my arms on the main grip body and latch onto the end of the barend. I could ride that setup all day and could even get somewhat aero with that last position. It wasn't nearly as confidence inspiring for a climb though and I feel way more secure in the hooks for a fast curvy decent... I definitely prefer drop bars, granted I spend most of my time in the hoods anyway.

I don't have that problem riding a fixed gear bike with drop bars and track geometry. The handling is super responsive with it but it also depends on your bike geometry.

I was hit by a car on my road bike about 2 years ago now. I did hit the brakes but they didn’t do much and aren’t that easy to grab quickly. I really feel like on my old specialized rockhopper I would’ve braked sooner and harder and avoided the crash.

This! I gained almost BMX skills when commuting for 3 months in a row through the city centre, residential areas, subburbs, etc. The curbs, the pot holes, start-stop pace, on and off the sidwalks, all to avoid car lanes as much a as possible. Drop bars are risky for that settings. Gravel trip outside the city is another story.

Yeah, going faster for same effort, going at the same speed for less effort, and being able to fit through narrower spaces (like congested traffic!) are, in my experience the most important factors for the majority of people, who might be commuting or cycling for fun in cities and suburban areas. Bikepacking is more of a specialised niche area with its own needs.

Because you can tuck in & bomb a hill?

Riding in dirt with drop bars feels like running in high heels. I can do it, but it always feels awkward. Flat bars are like trail running shoes, they do everything decently well.

@@marcalvarez4890 thanks for the laugh, we used to joke roadies are gay.

@@andrewnorris5415 Well i don't know if it matters one way or another, but i am gay! Lol.

In my neck of the woods, cool is flat bars.

I totally agree. I myself bought a drop bar gravel bike and the primary consideration was that I didn't want a flat bar for my upgrade. It worked well too, but you're totally right - there would be other people that think like I did and never even considered flat bars on merits.