Thanks

*FAIL:* Like the other 40+ companies, these all seem to be a scam. Sorry, I meant 200+ other companies, that don't exist period. Where is all this stuff, every week it's 10 more garbage videos of "Revolutionary this & that." for the past 15 years...every day, every week, every month, non-stop. Where is everything? It's like 99.9999% are a scams looking for investors, even things like Orbit electric hubs seen at SEMI 5 years ago and it's crickets. And more mind blowing, I'm the only one saying it, shouldn't the number one response be: "Oh look, another no-nothing product that you'll never see or hear or touch or know or have or drive or buy and with a 99.99% won't exist beyond the prototype." It's like all these videos are clickbait. You're going to go down a rabbit hole of hundreds and hundreds of these companies that produce nothing. Gee, is 2024, where the hell is ANYTHING? Anything? Anything at all? All garbage.

In an interview I saw, they mentioned the heat problem, and they said because it is so efficient, it just doesn't generate a lot of heat in the first place, and the large thermal mass of the motor helps spread the heat out

The hub motors in the Aptera are liquid cooled.

Fans use energy. Bouncing wheels are an energy eater. Unsprung wheel motors are not better. This is total BS.

@@1969barnabas air cooling would cut the unsprung weight,

@@solexxx8588 No fans. The Aptera uses radiant cooling in the skin of the vehicle to radiate the heat from the liquid cooling system into the air around the vehicle. I want to drive one before I buy one so that I can evaluate the ride quality... because the unsprung weight is one of my concerns.

Cars have heavy axles and hubs and tored .. so here there s no axle lightweight hub and tire plus much smaller lighter breaks are sufficient coause of regen ... so it actually weighs the same .. thats what i heard .. for bycicles its a different story .. for mopeds they do it all the time !!! Millions on the road with hub motors !!

No. The Elaphe motors are fully potted to absorb repeated 100 G shocks. The wheels would likely be destroyed before damaging the motors.

@@n.brucenelson5920 Right, the are made so strong they can't be damaged. Those 20 year studies prove it, or wait they don't have those.

@@murraymadness4674 If you have something to contribute to the conversation, cite your own data. Misrepresenting what I said, and name calling isn't a contribution.

@@n.brucenelson5920I would like to hear more, are the motors heavier than needed as a result for making them as resistant to shocks? What kind of solutions have they applied?

@@MyFilippo94 Elaphe Motors considered using transverse flux and axial flux motor design, but settled on radial flux after evaluating all the pluses and minuses, including ease and cost of production. They would be lighter without the potting, but would not then be robust enough for the application. They have built and tested many prototype cars - more than 40.

Torque vectoring has to be in line Exactly with Wheel Direction & Speed! At EVERY given instance! When a car is turning the inside and outside wheels are going around different but changing radii! Due to this is travel different distances! Lets take a simple 90 degree, right angle turn. You are driving along at an appropriate steady speed, & initiate your turn. You neither accelerate nor brake, the inner wheel needs to slow down by the same or similar amount the outer wheel need to speed up! Now as regards Torque vectoring, does this accelerate the the outer wheel & brake the inner wheel? Or does reverse Torque (regenerative braking) the inner wheel to to the correct speed compared to the outer wheel. Or does it do both? A Win Win or at least Brake Even! Every slight steering should matched by the appropriate Toque Vectoring. Don't forget you can Brake Torque Vector Unpowered wheels to give greater control! Speaking of Brakes, where do they go now that they have been made homeless by the hub motor? Please don't say in, on or close by the Hub Motor? Hub Motors & Brake Rotors don't make good bed fellows!

Lets be clear here: in wheel motors are a thing since like 50 years. Its just that production cost and overall complexity have never put it in focus for mainstream production. The apterra is sized like a vw up, with none of the upsides but every single downside you get for basically driving a renault twizzy gone fat. Have fun dieing in it in a crash.

@@trazyntheinfinite9895 And yet motors in wheels failed to become a thing 50 years ago. I don't think the Aptera is the perfect design for a EV, but I think vehicles like the Model 3 and Nissan Leaf are a poor implementation of their potential right now. A 2 seater commuter that ignores long range requirements in favor of balancing price/efficiency is a better goal than towing capacity. Removing rear leg room would be a boom for battery placement. While the interior space might seem small compared to the vehicle the reality is the main purpose is to move humans. Which in most cases is just one of them. As for safety it's considerably better than a motorcycle with 4 season potential. If the only way to fix a problem is to add more batteries, you will only make it worse.

@@trazyntheinfinite9895 The design of hub and in wheel hub motors are not complex whatsoever in comparison to a mounted motor. Not only that, but you also don't need a complicated driveshaft to transmit the motor's output. The biggest issue of a hub or in wheel hub motor is unsprung weight.

Grin technologies has a kit for just that, or you could take your chances with ebay Chinese kits.

@@punkdigerati TY for the tip.

Scooter hub motors may fit wheelbarrows

That's a good point. If there was some way to retrofit your current gas car to become a hybrid I could see a lot more people switching over.

Exactly what I'm thinking. The un-sprung weight is my only concern about the Aptera. I want to drive one before I commit to buying one. Does anyone know how much these particular hub motors weigh?

The video doesn't address this concern. Every technical choice is a compromise between multiple qualities. No choice can be all good and no bad. So this video is missleading.

I think it's a fair question, but on the other hand I think it's something that matters less than you might think. The unsprung weight of an Escalade is huge compared to a compact car, but nobody would claim they ride poorly I don't think.

@@bradley3549 its the ratio between unsprung mass and sprung mass that is important.

@@niconico3907 I agree and that's my point really. BEVs are relatively massive for their size, generally speaking, so an increase in unsprung weight may be less significant in the grand scheme of things, IMO.

Moving the wheels out does add stability; but because the wheels are more massive now, and because the wheels must move when the road forces sit, you have a larger mass being tossed around. So you have a choice. You can move all that extra kinetic energy into the car body (so rougher ride), or you can slow down the suspension (resulting in much worse handling).

Smoothness? i dont think because unsprung masses did increase the inertia who make bounce the wheels and so degrades road holding...In wheel motors are not a new idea: the first known car with such motors was the Lohner Porsche 4 wheel driven electric car from... 1899! Motor wheeled vehicles (electric or hydraulic) are very common but only use in heawy and slow vehicles like construction machinery, mining machinery, handling machines like boat moving,etc...

Others will pick up where left. The passion and the need has arrived.

This was 3 years ago. It seems that it didn't catch on. It would've been cool to add AWD to any car. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/n7dkn7eBu7iXoZc.html

3 wheel drive not 4 wheel drive , there is only 3 wheels !

Aptera will serve as our only vehicle, and will meet the needs of many retired people. Our Gen 1 Honda Insight serves well now, and Aptera will improve on its performance in almost every respect, including carrying capacity.

The company can't really speak to it yet officially because it's too early, but right now they are looking at comma two and comma three from Comma AI. Check out Cyber Owner's channel for more on that.

Close. The mass on the wheels is "unsprung", because there's no spring between it and the road. It means that you have more mass jumping up and down; which results in some combination of the wheel not touching the road and/or the car lurching about. It's one of the reasons that basically no one does this.

@@jerrylove865 The fact is that there are many vehicles on the road now with wheel motors. It is only recently that the tech has made them more available at a competitive price. Proper suspension design has been able to control steel wheels with the 50 lbs the Aptera wheel motors weigh for decades.

No, increase in 'unsprung' weight.

@@jerrylove865 Actually wheel motors are becoming increasingly common in lower speed vehicles like trucks and buses - because it significantly reduces drive train space (that can then be filled with batteries instead).

@@allangibson8494 "lower speed" being pretty significant here. The requirements on the suspension are lessened at lower speeds. Also: It's a mass competition between the sprung and unsprung portions of the vehicle. On a more massive vehicle, you can get away with more unsprung weight.

That's exactly what I was wondering!Not just classic cars, but any lower-weight car that blew it's engine...

@@KingClovis I checked - for now, they only supply OEM's, not private customers or small accounts, regretfully. Lightyear is also working with them (they claim a 97% efficiency on the motors). Didn't find a price anywhere.

@@justforthehackofit Aptera charges $2500 for the third motor, which may give a hint.

@@n.brucenelson5920 Well, they'd have to get that price per wheel a little lower for it to be econimically viable. I would think you'd two wheel/motors at least, plus the batteries. It would be interseting to compare that with replacing an engine in a used car...

I've been considering that possibility. One issue I thought of is the hub motors limits compatibility with wheels. A lot of classic cars have fairly small wheels in comparison to modern cars. Even if you put low profile tires on there could still be clearance issues to contend with. Also there are aesthetic considerations. Aptera is completely hiding their wheels so they don't have to look pretty, but a large part of the experience with classic cars is how they look. Using hub motors will also likely require reengineering the suspension. Likely requiring custom fabricated parts to attach to the car. Also concerns of changing the car's balance and driving charactistics. None of this is a deal breaker, just factors to consider

Not getting any feedback on Elaphe motors in the US? One comment stated unless you are Vehicle manufacturer we can not support you! Well, we want to be a AWD Hybrid retrofit supplier to purchased vehicles commercial and personal vehicles. We can't even complete an adequate business plan with so little input from Elaphe? When will we get Support in the US Business Development. Rumor are out that the motors don't work which must be sour grapes because so few have seen one in action.

@@DennisMurphey The main issues would seem to be that a simple conversion would most likely fail. You would have to rebuild most of the suspension arms to hold the hub (in-wheel) motor, and you would have to have enough design experience to build a high voltage wire that could bend repeatedly over the life of the vehicle without metal fatigue breaking it internally. And then, you would also have to have a multi-wheel motor controller, with safeguards should a single wheel motor fail. Finally, the in-wheel motors generate a lot of heat for the small space they are in, that typically means a liquid cooling system that again crosses from the wheel to the body, where larger radiators can be installed, or attaching passive heat sinks to the motors (which don't work well when the wheel isn't spinning fast enough to get forced air convection. Finally, the unsprung weight will be high, about 75ish to 85ish pounds greater per wheel. Considering it's about $1300 to reduce 12 lbs of unsprung weight by buying alloy rims, the work to retrofit the typical american car might make the project look more like a P1800 Cyan price range than a P1800 vintage price range, unless you just throw ride quality out the window. Still, I want to do the same thing, despite knowing too many engineers that tell me all the issues. :)

True, but these devices consume power in increased friction and heat, unlike the wheel motors.

@@n.brucenelson5920 not enough to matter. And they will last the life of the vehicle as long as you replace 3 oil seals and the oil every 5-10 years

@@pogo1140 The small losses from the differential and drive shafts are quite significant for a vehicle as efficient as Aptera is, especially when considering that we are trying to maximize the solar contribution to range.

@@n.brucenelson5920 so you have a 110 hp motor sitting in an isolated dry box vs 2 50hp electric motors bouncing up and down with just the tires to protect it.

And of course a Chaterham and Aptera are identical in design language, use case, and owner demographics. 🧐

At a recent Webinar, Aptera said they will open a production facility in Australia. I live in Bangkok so I'll have to wait to buy my right-hand drive Aptera from Australia.

For the battery? Probably not.. EVs are not cold weather friendly just yet

@@rajgill7576 My Tesla Model 3 is great in winter. It does lose some range in our Winnipeg cold, but if you have enough buffer that's not a problem. If it didn't have a battery heater the pack could get too cold to produce much power at all.

Yes. The Aptera battery pack is liquid cooled and heated by an antifreeze loop.

Aptera Elaphe WMs are fully potted.

Can I plow into your Aptera with the 80,000 lbs of semi-truck I used to drive? It will only be at 25mph, just a gentle kiss.

@@ATEC101 you are a true skid master.

@@ATEC101 Ah yes, the chicken shit argument. Well played. 🙄

You release a catch at the rear of the wheel pants and raise/pivot forward the outer half of the wheel pant exposing the wheel and tire for easy change. There is a jack point just inboard of the wheel.

The Aptera actually has built-in solar panels so you probably wouldn't even need a house Charging set up if you don't drive more than maybe 30 or 50 miles a day.

I think you mean 2-5 miles a day...

this will also require a motorcycle license because there is no way that would pass a US automobile crash test

There is a company in Australia building electric 4x4 Hilux utes - they buy the rolling chassis off Toyota.

The motors are not affected by salt water. Still, it is extra-ordinarily dangerous to enter flooded areas in any vehicle, even though the Aptera will float.

Yea, I rented a Polaris slingshot once. Surprisingly, California is NOT one of the helmet requiring states

Yes, but autocycles are a different breed, and they are starting to not require helmets for them.

I think AK is the only state left that requires a helmet.

I think we'll start to see IWM conversion kits for lots of vehicles in the near future

I'm not an automotive engineer either, but when I was younger, I was interested in racing. I read a few books on how to become a better (race) driver. They covered suspension a lot, and a lot of racing is understanding how to use your suspension in ways that don't slow you down. If you want good suspension performance, the last place you want weight is in the wheels. Lighter wheels can react to irregularities in the road faster, by having less mass for the car's spring to overcome (the spring is responsible for pushing the wheel back down to the road). There's a lot of other items that are impacted (spinning something heavier takes more energy, etc.) but the suspension issues are what typically leads to in-wheel motors only being used on prototype cars (because in-wheel motors ARE cool) or heavier production trucks (because the wheel to body ratio of weight is still low when the body get much heavier). That's why people (ok some people) routinely pay $1300 for a set of wheels that reduces the weight in the wheels by about 12 lbs. You can immediately feel the difference, and in racing your track times will improve even if your driving doesn't. To get an idea of how much people will pay, Corvette has a set of wheels for about $12,000 to $20,000 that are 100% carbon fiber and reduce wheel weight by 41 lbs. There's an entire market for lighter disk brakes, disk brake calipers, suspension arms, etc. Lordstown Motors (defunct) produced the Endurance (about 50 to 100 vehicles). Their additional wheel weight due to the motor was reported to be 85 lbs per wheel. Nobody said anything nicer than "ok", "boring", or "passable" about it's ride quality. The way this weight is measured is in a ratio to the car's overall weight. Bits of the car not supported by the spring comprise "unsprung weight". A typical car has a unsprung to total mass ratio between 0.12 and 0.15. Assuming a 75 lb motor, and an additional 100 lbs per wheel of suspension, that's 525 lbs of unsprung weight, which would be comfortable with a 3,500 to 4,375 lb vehicle. There are tricks than can improve this, but they are generally avoided because they impact the car's ability to corner or add even more weight in the wheel. Heavy wheels also mean more tire wear, as the tire itself flexes more when it can't bounce upwards as quickly due to its mass. A better approach would have been to use near-Wheel motors (placing the motor outside the wheel, which provides a lot of benefits, like less motor vibration, leading to smaller bearings, leading to reduced weight, and no constantly flexing (bend it till it snaps) high voltage electrical cable going into the wheel. The REE P7-c does this, but it's a production box van chassis

It's to reduce rolling resistance. The aim is to push efficiency to the absolute limits of physics. The company has said it will produce other types of vehicles in the future.

Torque is still there at speed…

@@JohnR31415 not as much though, Tesla gears up their motors to get better perfornance at high speeds.

@@xymaryai8283 Gears rob efficiency through added friction. Aptera's wheel motors put more of the available power on the road where it does useful work, and avoids unwanted heat and increases range.

@@n.brucenelson5920 Translation, all the acceleration is in the first 2 seconds after that it drops. It's why the 911 would lose to the Tesla S at the 1/4 mile but the Tesla would lose at the 1/2 mile and by 1 mile the 911 already past it and was still pulling away from it.

@@linusa2996 0-60 times for the 2 motor version is 5.5 seconds and 3.5 for the 3 motor. This is absolutely amazing for what is designed as an economy car. Even the slow one matches Ford Mustangs.

I have been involved in building electric motors for use in seawater. The motors are completely potted in a shock absorbing, rubbery compound that can absorb over 100 Gs of shock. I had a conversation with Elaphe engineers about this and am convinced they know what they are doing here.

The Elaphe motors used by Aptera also do regeneration, which handles most of the braking duties.

Contact me

It's called a Prius.

@@linusa2996 I thought the Prius used electricity until it was mostly depleted then switched to gas. Does it change based on speed or torque demands?

@@justcommenting4981 Yes, the Prius uses both motors during acceleration, electric at slow speeds, gas at 35mph+.

@@linusa2996 wow, pretty cool. I'm dissapointed this isn't used in higher performance vehicles. Makes the Prius more appealing actually.

@@justcommenting4981 There are Porsche, BMW, Lamborghini, Ferrari and Maclaren Hybrids

No. The brakes have to go somewhere.

One at the front and two at the back tends to be more unstable: a) Because the weight distribution of this configuration tends to be unfavourable (ie substantially more than, say, a third of the weight over the single wheel). b) Ordinary drivers tend to brake in bends and with the weight transfer, both longitudinal and lateral, that is inherent with braking in a bend and that is when this arrangement is particularly unstable. The 'Nissan' Delta racer has a very narrow front track, but is driven by a racing driver who is less likely to brake deep into a bend, has a much more favourable weight distribution and can be booted early on the exit, although it must be a bit power-on oversteery (!) with the rear end providing most of the roll stiffness.

@@theinspector1023 the deltawing cant tip because of design geometry and rear weight bias. Not to hate I bet the driver is fantastic, but I think they made it ohysically impossible to tip if you're braking too hard in a corner. Sometimes you have to do things like that in a race

The Morgan has never been popular either, it’s a niche vehicle just like the aptera.

larger wheel = more weight.

There's a lot to get into on this. Long story short, the handling is quite good. It's a different and cool sensation having all the power in the wheels.

The shocks to the motor and how that affects wear seems like the bigger issue, if you can get the unsprung mass of the in-wheel motors low enough to not be a big deal. Perhaps nit having the additional drivetrain to deal with easily makes up for the unsprung weight handling issues in practice.

A direct drive motor doesnt really have anything sensitive to shock loading. As long as the bearings are up to the task, all else should be fine.