Do not listen to the comments saying you do too much trans stuff. It is extraordinarily important to document everything, and you are doing a great job at it. It's obscurity that brought us so far down this mess; shedding light on all aspects of it is the way out.

I worked with a transgender woman who divorced his wife because she would not affirm him. His complete lack of empathy towards her in regards to his wife's hurt and anger was astounding. All he could talk about was clothing and makeup.

I worked at a company where our office was joined by a new hire. The lady was quite open about her plans to begin her transition to male. She also frequently talked about her fiancé (male) who was supportive of her choice. She started hormone treatments, voice changed, started growing facial hair. One day he/she comes in and was all upset. Apparently her fiancé broke off the engagement. She seemed completely shocked by this outcome. Like she never considered how her decision would affect the lives of other people in her orbit. Suddenly her fiancé became a hater and a bigot because her decision to change genders destroyed his dream of living out his days with the woman he loved and their potential children. As bad as that was, I can’t imagine the heartbreak of being married for many years to a man you think you know, only to have him decide to transition. I’m sorry you had to endure that. You are a very strong woman. I wish you peace and happiness. 🌹 🌹 🌹

I've always viewed Benjamin as a crucial documentarian of trans ideology. He is doing a great service with recording the insanity of all this mess. He platforms detransitioners and desisters, transwidows, etc. His efforts have helped to spread the word and introduce more people to the reality of trans ideology. Those of us on the front lines owe much to BB.

A lot, if not most, trans identifying men believe that primping and preening are the womanly behaviours that prove their identity.

Around 1:06 - exactly what I’ve said for a while. Where are all the trans who claim they are women because of other characteristics that are traditionally more like women, such as love of children, desire to nurture, compassion, etc.? Why is it always about the hair and the makeup and the high heels and the dresses and the body modification? And by the way, I know plenty of REAL women who eschew all of that. The whole thing is so shallow and narcissistic, and insulting.

I love your interviews Benjamin. Some people have commented they are fed up with the Trans content/subject matter. I'm not one of them.Massive cultural significance and many different angles to cover..Thanks

I found Shannon rather impressive. I admire that she was determined not to surrender to craziness or melt down herself, & lose her grip on reason and reality. Props to her.

There are many stories that need to be told. My daughters partner/wife of 14 years became first Poly and then trans and taught the kids that they were gender queer and made them pick new names. This dynamic and a similar narcissist dynamic as this story here destroyed their marriage and threatened to take their two children away from my daughter because she was the enemy and wouldnt play the game.Even though the kids were not the ones insisting on anything. But the courts will not hear that. These children were taught they were 'gender queer' since they were toddlers. At 8 and 12 now, the children have oriented to their native sex and natural inclinations and now see the insanity but they are living double lives every other week. We try to be as civil as possible while my daughters ex will not even allow the children to refer to their mother as their mother, only by her first name. Classic alienation, but we can not prove this either in this insane politically oriented climate.

Thank you for shouting out my rat art. The significance is that I am a crazy rat lady. And I trick people into liking rats by passing them off as mice.

I remember reading an article from a psychologist about 20 or 25 years ago. This mental health professional as far as back as then had a female client with a husband who was starting to cross dress. The doctor told this wife that once a husband began dressing as a woman, that if the wife went along with it, he would eventually go all the way with it and want to be like a woman full time.

This isn't about the gender issues, the gender stuff is just how this man's midlife crisis/identity crisis whatever you want to call it, manifested. Benjamin, you nailed it, that's what this is about. I say this as a survivor of my ex-husbands MLC, that tore our family apart. This takes years to recover from. This book is part of Shannon's healing process. She has been through a war, she is strong, and it gets better from here. Way to go mamma bear.

Yes, there is a lot of narcissism evident in the trans movement. I completely agree... not everyone needs to spout their identity to the world and those who do are overly concerned about themselves to the detriment of others around them.

The defamation by crossdressing ex is quite common for trans widows. In my data of 56 of us, over half were defamed by ex-husband. Channel in handle for details. There are also assaults.

Thanks for this angle on this topic. Would be good to hear from trans orphans

1:10 - the mention of sexual passivity as part of what drives some men to claim they are women… I have long suspected this is a big part of the issue. They need to be the one desired, the one who is having sexual things done to them, arousing someone else…rather than being the one doing the acts or having passion for the other person. Somehow, I think that is unspoken key to what people think about the definition of “woman” - sexual passivity. There are trans people who transitioned after childhood in my family and friend circle and I’ve seen and heard their coming out stories. A common thread is seeing beautiful women and being jealous of them, not desiring them. Perhaps these men have a strong underlying guilt about their sex drives??? Or maybe it comes from early abuse, perhaps. I know that’s true in at least one case.

This story is so sad. My heart is breaking for her, losing a what it sounds like great marriage just like that. I want to read her book but I feel like it would be almost too much to handle. The way she expresses herself is so emotionally mature, intelligent and touching. I bet it’s a fantastic book.

I've heard so many similar stories like this woman is talking about, that I feel a new wave 'Me Too' is on the horizon.

It is sad to see that modern ways of thinking have corrupted people so much that someone like this woman, who I believe is good hearted, completely fails to see basic social causality. She wants to be "compassionate" to people, thinking being nice and overly permissive of people's depravities is compassion, when really all it does is doom these people and the social circles they are in. Even after experiencing it first hand, she did not learn ...

Fantastic interview and retelling of her story. As a trans widow myself this story is eerily similar to what I experienced on so many levels. I also strongly resonate with her views on intellectual bravery and identity. Thank you so much for sharing.

The word is Selfish. They are dancing around it.

My wife has a cousin that transed and destroyed his marriage in the process.

As sad as the story is, I think I came to a realisation when she talked about her "friends". In interview after interview with these very progressive people, they always talk about how they had this network of friends which abandoned them at the drop of a hat. I don't think people like that have friends. They have allies. Something about the way they structure their lives around political/ideological issues prevents them from actually having deep relationships. I could of course be wrong, but it sure seems that way.

33:19 “…he drilled into an internal world that I could not be a part of…. “ I so appreciate your keen ability to tell us how things harkened. Thank you so much. So sorry that his new focus threw you off because, wow, you are one smart lady. I had a similar experience.

Do you think Jamie has bought a "product"? Do you think his desire for his new life to be "affirmed" is like a kid in a Spiderman suit who has bought into Spiderman so deeply that he wants to enter Spiderman's world. He desperately wants it to be real, anyone bringing that world's validity into question is ruining the "game" - only he is so invested in the game he cannot bear the thought of returning to reality. The boring world of black and white, the world bounded by rational limitations? Isn't this what the word "unhinged" is meant to describe? Isn't Jamie simply unhinged and surrounded by people and ideas that are telling him there's no reason NOT to live like that?

This was such a great conversation. I appreciated very much what you said about how you cannot control how other view you and how the trans community demands that others see them as they see themselves and if you don't affirm their self image you are transphobic. The values they wish to convey are shallow.

I absolutely loved this conversation it really resonated with me philosophically - I have a gay son & many gay & lesbian friends but I don’t have any “transgender” friends & it spurred me to reflect why that is my reality. I’m a behavioural clinician who has spent my entire professional & personal life trying to understand what causes people to respond to stimuli; in healthy & dysfunctional ways. One of my core values is honesty & I inherently internally recoil from people who don’t appear sincere. I will be reflecting on this video for many, many hours ♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️

While I cannot diagnose anyone online, I’d speculate that a male who decides he wants to cross dress in his 40s & then decides he wants to live as a woman is struggling with a midlife identity crisis, hormonal disorder or mood disorder. Testosterone can fall off dramatically as a man ages, especially if he’s not working out, getting sunshine, sleeping & eating well. I’d strongly recommend that anyone who’s dealing with this phenomenon to get CBC & relevant hormone tests done, including a thyroid panel. My heart aches for her & I hope she finds love again

That was an interesting and enjoyable conversation. Shannon Thrace is intelligent and articulate and seems to be very fair when talking about her ex.

Wow, what an intelligent, strong woman and such a well-conducted interview. I discovered your channel from your interview with Null. Will definitely be sticking around for more conversations like these.

The irony of objecting to the term transwidow because the person 'hasn't died' but complaining about 'dead-naming'. Just another of the many inconsistencies in the trans version of the world 😅

Thank you both. I have heard your story before, but this telling was most informative and I thank you.

I've listened to Shannon speak before and I'd like to thank both of you for this interview. The way she moved through this entire situation with her ex husband is beyond admirable. So many people get stuck in the darkness and never make their way out of it. To have a 14 year marriage disintegrate in 18 months is heartbreaking. I really like that Shannon forced herself to create a new life even though at first she was just going through the motions. If she had allowed herself, she could have been collateral damage but instead she rose to the occasion and created a new life. Congratulations to Shannon on accomplishing this and all the best to her.

Thank you for this very thoughtful conversation looking at the very real oppression that experiencing this abuse has put you through.

I soooo agree with Shannon about it NOT being important to announce to the world who you are.

I can understand why this lady feels widowed. I'm grieving the loss of my daughter. Although that being is still alive my daughter is no more. She's now identifying as a man and has maimed herself by having her breasts surgically removed. I'm grieving the loss of my baby girl but when I've called her by her birth name, the name me and her dad gave her on the most wonderful day of my life I'm accused of dead naming her. Surely if I'm dead naming her that means my baby is dead 😢 I love my child regardless but why should I be railroaded into going along with this agenda that I don't believe is true. I'm heartbroken

I have listened to this three times. Each time I hear a different type of story/POV. Both of you are great communicators and story tellers !

Ms. Thrace, you are brave. Your story is inspiring. Thank you.

This is such an important conversation, thank you for sharing this!! 💛

Thank you Benjamin and Shannon! Great discussion, and yes, chickens are great pets who make you breakfast!

Agreed. The content is great. Love what you do Ben!

Great interview. I learned a lot & have a better understanding of what my 67 yr old Uncle is going through. Thank you.

So sorry for Shannon, and sad for all the misery TRAs bring forth.

This was a wonderful interview. Thank you!

I loved this discussion. Two very intelligent people engaging in very interesting conversation. Thanks.

Shannon Thrace is always reflective and insightful, and this interview is no exception.

Widowed with this trans stuff could be even worse than a normal widowed because of death. At least when the person dies you can still keep and share all the memories you had together. You dont have to hide and supress it all and pretend it never happened.

I'm baffled by the mean spirited commenters in this thread who say that because this woman doesn't think exactly the same way they do she deserves to be unhappy and to lose her marriage. These same people often extol their own 'traditional', presumably Christian, 'values' in the same comment.

Fantastic episode, so great that Sharon is not playing the poor me victim act , she could but all credit to her that she so intelligently doesn't. much respect.

This is a great interview. What a thoughtful, smart woman. She was and is as open-minded as can be, but this is not about open-mindedness.

As Shannon pointed out, she's talking about the part people don't see and don't want to see or know about, yet in their delusion or denial believe they understand enough to deny the realities of her experience and the experiences of other women who have been in the same position.

Thank you Shannon. Yes. A question is a question.

Such a great point about the virtues of each sex and how they have no interest in attaining them, thanks Benjamin :)

Really good job Benjamin

Very good point about the _good_ traits of the opposite-sex stereotype you could pick if you have a yearning to be seen as masculine/ feminine. But honestly it doesn't seem to go that way often, does it? I don't see FTM's becoming more decisive or courageous, I don't see MTF's becoming more nurturing or cooperative. It's mostly the less appealing stereotypical traits that get adopted, such as aggression or emotional instability, and sometimes it's just about muscle, facial hair, breasts, lipstick etc - the superficial. If my partner decided to wear whatever or look different, I wouldn't mind, but if she decided to have a second puberty it would be a great disappointment.

"You never really stop collecting data." - a relative Documenting every conversation and experience you can find is valuable. Including and especially the outliers. Every person you have on that I listen to, I learn at least something. No one has discussions like you do.

I give credit for this followup interview. Well done, sir

Great video!

The people who say its wrong to use "trans widower" because the person didn't actually die, are the same people who say "you can't dead name someone". They literally think that the trans persons birth name and identity is dead. So obviously using the title of widower is applicable here.

What a voice, Benjamin Boyce ! Love it.

Those who are fed up with gender ideology interviews have millions of other videos and channels to go watch. Bye bye to them. Please, Benjamin, keep doing these. It’s a very important documentation for history and eye opening for the present.

Such an important perspective. I really appreciate the depth into which you cover this subject. It is never just repeating things; it is looking at something from all angles. It would be great if her ex husband could come on and give his/ her point of view, or write you a letter which you could check for authenticity that it is from them and it could then be reported in some form or other. ( I wonder if they have watched this and what they think) Could be explosive, though I have a sneaking feeling that he/ she won't be fairing so well with the decisions they made. I admit that I'm a very nosey person in that way ! I was going to say that maybe they will comment in the comments if they have seen it but the problem with that is that people never believe you are who you say you are when you comment and some people pretend to be someone else so that would be a bit of a minefield.

Keep up the great work Ben, the world needs to see the absolute insanity that is being allowed and pushed 🫸 and the after affects on people surrounding this issue.

AGP

her book is fantastic! heartbreaking and eye opening!

Quality conversation about a controversial topic! You have some deep perspectives.

All of this sounds very similar to a family member joining an extremist cult, where their personality completely changes as they assume a new cult identity and the cult identity tries to push down and deny their original, true self. Very hard for any family member to watch.

What a wise woman, sorry she had to go through this. I wonder what inoculated her against the ideologies claws that sink so many. Would love a second interview.

How did their friends support this craziness though...she was very supportive of Jamie. It sounds like their friend group is also of the **too liberal** ideology they eat their own...I'm glad Shannon found a therapist to help her talk thru it and hope in the activities she enjoyed also finds new even if few friends.

Love the cat

I’m so glad you had Shannananon on.

I am so sorry.

Shannon's book is so good.

Uber Frau. Interesting observation. Great convo, guys.

When I think of what a stereotypical “liberal marriage” looks like, this is pretty much what I imagined.

Lastly, I loved your parting words about pets: cats, goats and chickens "we eat the eggs, not the chickens. They're our friends." And, if Shannon visits, "I'll make you an omelette." What's that saying? To get to the truth, ya gotta break a few eggs! Bravi.

Really interesting interview, and similarly heartbreaking and frustrating (listening to what Shannon had to go through). A great point was highlighted when Shannon talked about Jamie professing to be a woman yet he displaying none of the qualities more prevalent in women i.e. taking care of housework, having an affinity for children etc. This irony of this is that Jamie demanding to be treated and respected as a woman yet not partaking in any of these activities/traits was displaying all of the entitlement and hard-headedness more prevalent in men, and to a more extreme degree than most men ever would. Kind of like a gendered horseshoe situation. It seems Shannon has dealt with this really well, I can't imagine what it must be like to lose your best friend and spouse to something like this, and then for them to turn on you publicly and have your mutual friends support it. Really sad

1:08:56 "What matters more? The way things are, or the way things look?" 😅

I wonder what the band members of Shannon's ex thought about his transition? Seems to me there would be some reaction. Great interview!

Perhaps Nietzsche was warning us.

I totally agree - our society ignores the ideals or virtues needed to become human. We focus on the temporal and hence we become purposeless and delusional in our pursuit of happiness.

Read another comment that Shannon is so FAIR. Certainly, she is unusually intellectually driven. Not sure she is representative of the pain that many trans-widows go through. (I am not saying she hasn't suffered - clearly she has.) But to say she is "fair" is to imply that the others who express fierce anger and passion should be like her and hold back. The passion they express is part of being a woman with hopes of being loved by a man, in the way only a man can love a woman, and instead have to face sexual and emotional abuse, gaslighting and attacks on their identity!

The gaslighting, the lies, the obsession... it all very much sounds like a narcissistic personality disorder if you ask me. I think you're a giver Shannon and that is probably what kept your marriage alive for so long.

Very interesting.

@46:30 oooh, wasn't expecting this to go down the Jung rabbit hole! Not many more ridiculous paradigms than gender identity ideology, but the quasi-religious Jungian concepts of archetypes, collective unconscious, individuation etc would be right up there imho

You took “dead name” right out of my mouth.

Regarding Benjamin's question (54:08) about does having a certain set of other ideologies (liberal, atheist worldview), make one more susceptible to being "seduced" by trans ideology, I was thinking the same thing myself as the guest kept checking every box on the list of non-traditional uber progressive list as she described her and her ex-husband's practices and beliefs. I mean was her ex-husband's gender flipping that far of a stretch for him? I don't think that Shannon Thrace deserved the treatment she received from her ex, but in spite of her rejection of Benjamin's suggested connection (to use an extreme analogy), I don't think we'll see Benjamin featuring many Amish people telling him about their trans or detrans stories.

I love Benjamin and have listened to his podcast for years. I thought the Gen Spect tweet was atypical and a little off putting. It didn’t seem like his usual output.

Her friends all deserted her. Same thing happened to me because of my political beliefs Very hard to take

I feel sad over my brother is now transwoman . Nothing in his life prepared me for this. I still morn loss of him. Hes not same person anymore. She cut me off for not wanting to be part of lgtq and im muslim

I’ve been to a few crossdressing events and for me I think it’s about being in a place, group , crowd of people that totally get it and they can be free . This was an amazing interview. We need more stories of the woman and families effected. It’s a very complicated world. I think this is such a good conversation. I am supportive people on the gender spectrum but at the same time I think there a lot of collateral damage and that’s rarely spoken about.

29:00 the interviewee clearly explained at the start of the talk that it was triggered by watching snart-norp and was - one might conclude - obviously s3xu4lly motivated (like all auto-9yn3phi1ia), yet Benjamin labors to find a different explanation: from the somewhat ludicrous notion that it might have been an expression of his artistic bent, playing femininity like an instrument, to obsessive-compulsive disorder...She then tells a story that drips with narcissism, yet it doesn't occur to the interviewer to entertain this option either.

13:13 Porn. Do these car crashes ever start any other way?

You should have asked her if she considered herself a Marxist.

The cat!!!! Hello cat!!!

Very impressed with Shannon, find Benjamin too intrusive in the conversation.

Wait did I get kicked off the livestream for saying janny?

LOVE THAT KITTEN

For the extremely "emotional " part is not obvious the ingérence of an external hormonal décalage due to à body ingestion of something not created naturally, only asking, cause conséquences à long terme are extremely "unknowable " for the moment, sadly, yeah sadly, we will be the observer of the results...and would not be pretty. Sadly.

She says, before marriage she was more attracted to women, and now she still is...