Winning Time and the problem with (fake) biopics

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2 жыл бұрын

Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty - HBO's new series - is a semi-historical retelling of the 1980s Los Angeles Lakers season, based on a book by Jeff Perlman. Energetic and dynamic, the show has audiences split, with some saying it's incredibly entertaining and others (including Lakers top brass) threatening to sue the show for defamation.
This begs the question - how can a filmmaker make an 'ethical' biopic? How much can they twist the truth?
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Show Content From:
WINNING TIME: THE RISE OF THE LAKERS DYNASTY (2022) - HBO
Created By: Max Borenstein, Jim Hecht
Starring: John C. Reilly, Quincy Isaiah, Jason Clarke, Jason Segel, Hadley Robinson, Gaby Hoffman, Solomon Hughes
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Winning Time
Winning Time and the Rise of the Lakers Dynasty
Magic Johnson
Kareem Adbul Jabbar
Jerry West
NBA
Larry Bird
Los Angeles Lakers
HBO
Adam McKay
Biopics
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Пікірлер: 123

@SceneItReviews 2 жыл бұрын

Soooo....what did YOU think of Winning Time? Offensive or fun?

@raymayo7044 Жыл бұрын

Fun

@MartinW24 Жыл бұрын

Offensive but very good and entertaining😅

@benw7367 9 ай бұрын

Watch me paddle, mf

@snubdawg1386 9 ай бұрын

didn't know that this is coming out till i saw it ....very nice....will there be another season?

@MartinW24 9 ай бұрын

@@snubdawg1386 A season 3? I’m not sure.

@EJD339 Жыл бұрын

I just watch Winning Time the same way I was able to enjoy Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

@FALL-LAFF-7477 9 ай бұрын

This! THE REASON WHY! McKay always believe in Quentin's Narrative plays indirectly.

@mortystraphouse5077 8 ай бұрын

once upon a time is a masterpiece

@jahcode6132 10 ай бұрын

The fact that this basketball show about the lakers was made by the guy who made the Big Short, and he made Step Brothers and Talledaga nights and he brought in John C Reily it's like a culmination of some all of my favorite things in entertainment and I absolutely love it.

@ayushbajaj4708 8 ай бұрын

The Big Short was a good movie

@TheSpreadCoach Жыл бұрын

This only pissed off the lakers bc they were doing their own doc. And when that doc did eventually come out it showed that the first season of winning time was pretty accurate

@drewengel7073 9 ай бұрын

Rocketman doesn't just make it the manager's fault. It levels hard criticism at Elton which is what he wanted, you can read his book and he does not shy away from the bad things he did. At better movie to criticize would be Elvis, which toned down anything that could reflect bad on Elvis and said it was all because of his "evil" manager.

@jman2231 9 ай бұрын

The literal definition of biopic is a dramatization of a real person or events

@corryjohnson8339 9 ай бұрын

Wonderful job breaking down the semantics of a biopic. I also deeply enjoyed this show, as I have much of Adam McKay's work. It is obvious from the very beginning that the characters are over-the-top and that is why it is so gripping and entertaining. The performances that McKay nurtures from everyone are truly epic, especially John C. Reilly, Adrian Brody, Solomon Hughes, and Quincy Isaiah. But to hone in on one in particular, Jason Clarke's portrayal of Jerry West is the epitome of what non-athletes like myself sometimes kick around in our heads about what being an underdog in a big time sport must be like. I grew up in the 80s and 90s as a fan of quasi-underdog teams like the NFL Broncos, Bills, the NBA Pistons, and the MLB Braves. Teams that annually sniffed titles but struggled to make it all the way to the top, if ever at all. I always imagined how bitter John Elway must have been losing three Superbowls or Bird must have been losing to the Lakers over and over again. In the beginning of Winning Time, I get to see this frustration and self deprecation masterfully and tragically acted out by Clarke, which was a real joy for me. But, if you watch the entire show, my sense overall from the writing and acting was that West was absolutely critical in the Lakers becoming who they were. Most of the pivotal team decisions are made through his judgment or influence and he is a mentor to virtually everyone in the organization, from players like Magic all the way up to Buss himself. Sometimes his judgment goes astray (trying to oust Westhead and Riley with a new coach after McKinney's accident) but the way McKay tells the story, West was integral in bringing McKinney on in the first place. Clearly it must be embarrassing to have yourself portrayed as a nervous, bombastic, freakshow and so I can completely understand Jerry West being put off by the show. But I felt like the character portrayed by Clarke has a very deep arc which is much more than the some of its parts. Jason Clarke very beautifully acts out the dedication and heartbreak that professional athletes must possess and endure and in the end, I think the character Jerry West in the show is a hero.

@yolkster8729 8 ай бұрын

True

@filipbujaroski9221 8 ай бұрын

I love this show and hate that it was cancelled.

@ultimatewarrior7766 11 ай бұрын

The Jerry West description on this show was way offf

@tonyc8752 9 ай бұрын

The Goodfellas moment where Ray Liotta gets off the witness stand and starts talking to the camera was the first 4th Wall Break I can remember seeing in a mainstream film

@Ishbikes 8 ай бұрын

Also one a the greatest in cinema history.

@ejkboxing 9 ай бұрын

They don't depict Jerry West as an alcoholic. I don't think they even show him having a drink in any of the episodes.

@debbiebrantley61 9 күн бұрын

They showed him drinking,remember when he met that lady at a bar?

@pabloapostar7275 11 ай бұрын

Argo: What I remember being reported at the time was the Canadian parliament held a closed door session to change the country's laws to permit US citizens to hold Canadian passports. They stayed behind closed doors until the plane was out of Iranian airspace. Then changed the law back. The US nightly news my mom watched broadcast the Iranians outside the US embassy protesting what Canada did by screaming at the cameras "that's illegal!" She emphasized the hypocrisy. Her dad was a Canadian from Toronto. Someone in Detroit bought space on a billboard that faced Windsor Ontario and printed "Thank You Canada". The reporting at the time was "this was all Canada." Argo won best picture because it wholeheartedly ass-kisses the movie industry, i.e., the Oscar voters.

@auxrages 11 ай бұрын

Good video. I did see Winning Time and They call me magic. They box in different category. The documentary is informative, but previsible, classic. The show is powerful, and not so far from the truth. They put a really great effort to do a great show for people who didn't live at this time. I become fan of bird and magic looking to the show a courtship of rivalery, but seeing it this way was really nice. and how great they show the sport. As a theater director, the work of the actors is just perfect, the coolness and optimism of magic, the silence and doubt of Kareem, the soul reaching of Pat riley, and the extravagant jerry Buss. Only for Jerry west I can agree with the critic, not the best choice.

@wflive21 9 ай бұрын

I feel the same way

@Kindafu 9 ай бұрын

We live in a world where people get medical and financial advice from derivative memes on Facebook. The poetic licenses have to be made super clear to the audience.

@JJFLIP101 8 ай бұрын

Way late to the conversation here lol but I also think aside from having some fun with Jerry West, the Winning Time team was pretty diligent about doing research to ground their show in the shape of the actual narrative - it’s heavily drawn from the book Showtime about this era of the Lakers and i think there’s a difference between “the real story” and “the story as told by the main characters” - using journalistic materials and NOT working with the involved public figures is, I think, more likely to yield an accurate account in many cases.

@Name-wm6tq 10 ай бұрын

Jerry west was my favorite character lmao

@bassXsantana 9 ай бұрын

Love this video fam but funny thing is this doesn’t only apply to Bio pics. This is a reflection of our society in general. Anything that has to do with media or the news & anything that catches the public’s attention. Now a days life is more about perception than facts

@elisabethschmerzler963 3 ай бұрын

You hit the nail on the head. By Sociology terms we’re currently living in a post truth society created by media, where there’s so much content and information we rely on feelings and perceptions of knowledge, which can cause a lot of misinformation to spread. We’re currently learning about it in my Sociology and media class and it’s quite fascinating to see how much it’s infected the media landscape

@chiefgangmusic 10 ай бұрын

IMO That’s exactly whats wrong with the world today. Way too many ppl are starting to not care about the facts. If ppl don’t like the way things really are then they just change it to whatever they want it to be wrong or right morally or immorally. We’re turning our very existence into a dreamworld.

@owenbaggaley958 9 ай бұрын

The show isn't made by to be a biopic tho. Shakespeare's King Henry something isn't a factual retelling it takes events from real-life and uses it as a basis for creating a story. They're defined as fictional but based on real people and events. It makes that very very clear in the show as well. Stories and fiction are quite literally made up. If you're coming after this then you're coming after the entire genre of fiction

@chiefgangmusic 9 ай бұрын

@@owenbaggaley958 I wasn’t talking necessarily about the show but more so about the narrator saying that he didn’t care about facts.

@oscarquintero2209 9 ай бұрын

@@chiefgangmusiche said he appreciated the show as a piece of entertainment even if wasn't 100% factual, which is very different from what you're saying

@chiefgangmusic 9 ай бұрын

@@oscarquintero2209 lmao “very different” huh…? How can it be “very different” if I responded to directly from the exact words that he spoke. He said “humanity in general are more interested in dramatization” which is the exact quote that I responded to. So no my fellow it wasn’t very or even slightly different. It was exact. Which makes you “very wrong” IN THIS SITUATION. You’re probably right about everything else which I wouldn’t doubt for a second.

@JohnGeorgeHill 2 жыл бұрын

You are killing all your reviews. Very well put together as always. I loved the Showtime Lakers. Saw them in person and was even photographed on the steps of the Forum as an example of Laker fan fashion. (I was stylin' to be sure for a white guy) I read an interview with the actor playing Jerry West. He read the biography West wrote, and says a lot of his behavior comes from Jerry's book, so I give him credit for that. You deserve tons more viewers, so I guess it just takes time. You are clearly enjoying your work, but I know how much time you are putting in. I appreciate the effort. p.s. As far as this biopic, it is GREAT. Love how they are making the film look like how films looked from that period. It does look cheesy at times which is exactly what the filmmakers are going for.

@SceneItReviews 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the kind words John :) Green with envy at you getting to see Showtime in person. And agree with everything - it seems like the actors at least tried to source inspiration from somewhere for their characters, and the production value is crazy entertaining.

@ferozshah8359 8 ай бұрын

This vid feels like a presentation at class bring together before deadline

@maxmingo7392 Жыл бұрын

When I came looking for a review for winning time after I had loved it I was not expecting a video review to be this good for it, especially with such little views. Congrats keep up the great work.

@FYRFOX198 9 ай бұрын

If you’re not a dummy, you can differentiate real from NOT real and enjoy an entertaining show. 😆👍

@joshuamorrison8332 5 ай бұрын

To me its telling that Clark's high strung, volatile take on West elicited a reaction from the legend that is both high strung and volatile :)

@tingewik 2 жыл бұрын

Great review Jack. Not sure what the answer is, the latest biopic in this category is one about the Sex Pistols which John Lyndon is reported to be unhappy about. I guess unless you are steering the ship then you’re not going to be happy with the direction you’re going in….

@wflive21 9 ай бұрын

I watched both they were both great for different reasons winning time is strictly for entertainment the music the on point setting the dramatize characters made it fun to watch but nothing about it is factual it will take a small fact and over dramatize it for the viewer as a basketball lover I can understand the disrespect these former players feel which why I really love they call me magic it’s straight from the source it’s what it’s supposed to be an authentic documentary. I just feel the viewer should always be aware that Hollywood dramatizes 99% of their based on true story movies or shows so they deserve to know the difference between fake reality & reality and also respect someone’s life story if are life story was portrayed in certain way that’s not true we would be pissed off too

@cesarbarbosa8875 9 ай бұрын

Dude i think u should read this video here again, cause u missed the main point

@wflive21 9 ай бұрын

@@cesarbarbosa8875 I didn’t you don’t understand mines

@brianbadonde9251 8 ай бұрын

Scene It and the problem with (generic) video essay channels

@Omar29 9 ай бұрын

Excellent analysis

@electronicstutorials2443 2 жыл бұрын

Enjoyed this.

@NiceDynamiteInc 9 ай бұрын

I know I've seen that basketball court before but I can't put my finger on where it is

@Greeny_UCH 9 ай бұрын

Hurt my brain when I recognised the court your at 😂 shout out carlton

@grupojc9965 9 ай бұрын

When I saw the laker doc I kept noticing similarities to the hbo show so idk🤷🏽‍♂️

@joshbrown2217 8 ай бұрын

I think the one thing you touched upon, but plays a bigger part than you made it out to be is the fact that Jerry Buss speaks to the camera. By speaking to the camera, it shows that that character has the creative control over the story and therefore will shift it in the way they like. This is what makes it clear to the audience that the show has been made more for entertainment than facts. This is most likely why HBO don't have to worry about lawsuits, as the style indicates that they are not trying to portray characters as accurately as they should, but instead from the distorted view of one character.

@phillipbader4144 Жыл бұрын

I definitely got scammed by planet earth. I signed up to live the rest of my life here based solely on the predatory pandering in that series. it's truly sick. do we really need to slow down for people that think movies and shows don't change things for dramatic purposes? did you really just quote a plug for a competing show? I also like " I'm not a lawyer(and I didn't ask one, Im just gonna base this on a few googles)

@fabiancano9449 9 ай бұрын

John C. Reilly is a gem.

@canalesworks1247 8 ай бұрын

Winning Time is a sports opera. It's not supposed to be real. It's supposed to be a grand theatrical fictional homage to the Lakers.

@justanothercarol 10 ай бұрын

This show is like Moneyball and Anchorman had a baby

@brianbelden2449 8 ай бұрын

The 4th wall craze has become the new jump scare and both are used way too much to a point where films become reliant on both rendering both significantly less effective.

@Big73Red 8 ай бұрын

I look at it through the lens of, the story being told is from the view point of an unreliable narrator and the story being told is one from Jerry Buss’ eyes. When Buss isn’t the main focus of a scene it’s just how he thinks things went down or from a story he’d heard once.

@sappsz1293 Жыл бұрын

using this as one of my sources for an english assignment - the lack of views didn't hit me till now. how can this video be so underappreciated? only 76 likes?? super great work man :)

@Dubsteppinout 9 ай бұрын

I love it, I’m hooked, I want it to be the truth, BUT I’m aware that there are many fictionalized elements AND would not reference winning time as any historical reference, nor would I treat any of those people like I now know them because of it. It’s called entertainment.

@himgod6495 11 ай бұрын

Dragon, the Bruce Lee story was a good movie even though most of it was fantasy

@santiagoskywalker 9 ай бұрын

This show is amazing, from the acting to the writing to the cinematography. You can google facts or watch a documentary. Theyre making entertainment.

@TheSands83 8 ай бұрын

The guy who plays magic is one of the worst actors I’ve ever seen in my life

@big4headedGangster Жыл бұрын

THAT SHIT WAS SO GOOD

@cameroncole858 9 ай бұрын

what are on all the trees 😭

@G30RG3KA 9 ай бұрын

people forget jeanies partner is in the show.

@boxonothing4087 7 ай бұрын

Why is there this insistence for "historic accuracy". Watch documentaries if that's what you're looking for.

@rzn2258 9 ай бұрын

THERE IS NO PROBLEM !!!!!

@jayblasts 9 ай бұрын

All this let’s me know is that there’s a movie with Margot Robbie in the i might have to watch

@robhughes8198 9 ай бұрын

When talking about ARGO you omitted ‘for the sake of Propaganda’. This CIA was involved and has entire sections dedicated to Hollywood and lending out Military equipment. If you don’t think they were involved in production, then it’s time to grow up.

@mat_progame_chanel7845 9 ай бұрын

I like it

@icemike1 9 ай бұрын

Looks more like a parody than a biopic

@fb4708 10 ай бұрын

Yes entertaining not factual. This is one Yankee that's totally argees with you. Nice video.

@Sfdjdhrh 8 ай бұрын

For Argo. There was no entertainment reason to change the fact that it was mostly a Canadian idea. Thats just stroking patriotism. A silly change that doesn't better the film

@MaxPotentialGreatness 9 ай бұрын

Winning time bulls would be better

@SleepyGrapes 8 ай бұрын

Micheal kegan key lolololololololol

@franciscosanchez-op1dc 8 ай бұрын

This show is amazing, I couldn't care less if it's not the truth. I'll never meet Magic or Jerry West irl, so I prefer to entretain myself with their characters and this show does that amazingly!

@katsweeterly2039 2 жыл бұрын

Great one, by you. Adam McCay, not so much. Love ALL his movies you mentioned, but Winning time wasn't for me at all. Can't put my finger on it, but the coverage on how inaccurate it is certainly did not help. Background: I am the total demographic, even age wise, born in the 80s and living and breathing NBA news and throwing hoops myself.

@SceneItReviews 2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I can see how it's definitely not for everyone. Especially if you were a fan of West etc. Did you watch 'They Call Me Magic'???

@harrykatsaros 9 ай бұрын

After watching the official Lakers Dynasty 10 part documentary series, I have to defend Winning Time. It’s pretty damn accurate in terms of documenting what happened. Also, Jerry West is the fkn man in that show. Best character on all of TV. If I were Jerry West I would be telling everyone that’s exactly how it all went down.

@hipn0teyez36 9 ай бұрын

wb now after the dog shit ending

@zafiruzoma6234 8 ай бұрын

Why do you say it like loss anjileez😂

@MarkVMark5 8 ай бұрын

I’d rather just watch a documentary. I instantly turned off the Elvis movie when i heard a Doja Cat song playing. Completely killed any interest I had in watching it. If you’re gonna do that kind of movie at least use music of the time period and get the real story right. Otherwise my interest goes down the drain.

@JakeBodenhamer 2 ай бұрын

why are you kinda nice with it tho?

@KimfromSoCal 9 ай бұрын

Let me just say one thing. ANYTHING that would portray some of the 80's Lakers in a controversial way would be poohpoohed by many of the Laker players. They would never say anything to tarnish their reputation.

@jamesbingham1007 10 ай бұрын

It's entertaining. And, in Hollywood, that ain't the case too often these days. Watchin Jerry West lose it out of nowhere is funny. And, the fact that actual Jerry West is somewhere lsoing it over fake Jerry lsoing it makes me lose it all over again.

@cesarbarbosa8875 9 ай бұрын

YES

@SLIME_BALL_TV 9 ай бұрын

I love the show

@Taj_Rahine 9 ай бұрын

ok, my brain just broke... Did he just say MJ sculpted every scene of the Last Dance to highlight his brilliance? He sculpted every scene of a real documentary? How...CGI? What are you talking about? The Last Dance talked about lots of negative things about MJ like his gambling and portrayed him as a very very harsh teammate at best. They discussed him punching a teammate (although it wasn't on film). How this gets compared to a fictional biopic is pretty crazy. I've seen the creator of that documentary do several post episode reviews, he was still in the process of editing and completing the documentary as the first half of it was being released. Honestly I don't recall him mentioning any changes requested from MJ at all. Actually, the one thing I remember him saying is that MJ's mom didn't like to see him drinking whisky during the interviews, so you'll notice in the later parts of the documentary they edit the shot in a way where the whisky glass isn't visible as much as possible, when in the beginning it was perfectly on display. It's just so out of nowhere because the video was so damn good with amazing points right after another, then we're talking about how Scottie Pippen was potrayed...by himself...as he was interviewed about that moment, and had the ability to give his side and his current feelings on it? So strange to include an actual documentary in that group which otherwise only contained biopics with actor portrayals.

@DaFactsNoNonsense1713 8 ай бұрын

It wasn't fake = it EASILY captured the sentiments of the 80's & the players CHARACTERS, not the specific details that meant nothing at all = that's LA = they ignore THEN pretend = that's why they're so SHOCKED that the writer's captured SO MANY details that history forgot about but the general public always knew about = the things that weren't true didn't matter, while the show highlighted the DEFINITE "character" of each individual portrayed in it = Jerry West didn't want to draft Magic Johnson #FACTS Larry Bird was considered BETTER, while doing MUCH LESS by the MEDIA because he was "white"; Dr. Buss was a "womanizer", who probably did want his "sons" to be in-charge, but soon realized the real "boss" was next to him the entire time = men took women for granted back then + it's not surprising that he actively tried to keep Jeannie out of the TOP position strictly because she was a woman + Kareem Abdul Jabbar is EASILY the most HATED player to every play in the NBA = players didn't like him, teammates didn't like him, while EVERYONE else "tolerated" his presence, while "fearing" him more than "respecting" him = without Magic, Kareem would ONLY have "1" championship, instead of "6" = this show did a FANTASTIC job highlighting the "negative" aspects LA tried to hide from the public like Magic chasing "tail" so much it ruined his career = obviously they didn't want that to be shown, while ignoring EVERYONE wanted to know what Magic was up to, after Wilt Chamberlain put his book out about sleeping with "20,000" women during his career, which highlighted the lifestyle these pro-athletes were living during that time period

@crownzion 8 ай бұрын

I think higher ups cancelled the show bc they didn’t want all the negative tht happen to be highlighted to the modern day public

@DaFactsNoNonsense1713 8 ай бұрын

@@crownzion make this make sense because it doesn't = you just said that HBO doesn't want "reality" shown to kids who are dumb enough to believe anything you tell them = the Lakers are "mad" their secrets got exposed, after they hid them so well #okay

@user-ll7eb9yd5d Жыл бұрын

The dude just wasted hours of his life writing, filming and editing in order to prove hiself that the biopic universally hated by those who it is about is somehow good.

@jordandwiggins1026 Жыл бұрын

And you wasted 2 minutes of your life writing this comment.

@user-ll7eb9yd5d Жыл бұрын

@@jordandwiggins1026 and you wasted 10 minutes of your life browsing comments and finding something to be vocally butthurt about. Between 3 of us you are the most pathetic 🤷🏻

@chrisbrimhall1613 Жыл бұрын

I watched for about thirty minutes….turned it off

@taekwondooba5780 9 ай бұрын

Idc how realistic it is, I think it’s an incredible show and is super fun

@Taj_Rahine 9 ай бұрын

But they are representing the lives of real people and their families, it's not fair for someone to take their real lives and make up any story they want about them.

@jpharrahill7655 2 жыл бұрын

What's crazy is that the real people and events would have been very entertaining without dialing up the inaccuracies.

@martinezgltg2880 9 ай бұрын

In season 1 they only put the disclaimer in the first episode, I believe 🤭 besides, this is kinda Goebbels if you ask me, they will show someone like that through a couple of episodes and most of the people watching will think "yeah.. that's probably how he was like" 🙈

@benw7367 9 ай бұрын

Watch me paddle, mf

@officialthomasjames 9 ай бұрын

If we’re being real, Winning Time is a watered down version of what actually went on.

@PaulMckendrick14 10 ай бұрын

I'm sorry, but if you think winning time is anything but a sub-par TV show, you have adolescent taste in TV and movies

@KingKurokage 9 ай бұрын

you’re so smart bro!!!

@CazaresComedorDeCasadas 9 ай бұрын

say it louder

@PaulMckendrick14 9 ай бұрын

@@KingKurokage Y'know the second season has been altering my opinion a bit, it's really been picking up in quality

@gonzalez7935 9 ай бұрын

The show is not good, if you doing a biopic you have to stick with the true.

@cesarbarbosa8875 9 ай бұрын

Watch this video again, u missed the main point

@scizorbullet8185 8 ай бұрын

Anybody that knows shit about basketball kniws that this show is nothing like what really happened or how any of these people are

@CazaresComedorDeCasadas 9 ай бұрын

no offense to you, but kareem was spot on with the "drearily boring" comment. adam mckay simply doesn't know how to "hide the pill" when it comes to biopics; he tries very hard, flex all his directing muscles, but he simply isn't skilled enough to pull off a decent biopic that doesn't lack any kind of nuance. it feels toothless, doesn't grab my attention at any moment

@AsukasSlave 9 ай бұрын

i couldn't disagree more with this video. You are forgetting that people are idiots. Many people will actually believe that the show is real. Also, why in the hell would you want a crazy dramatization of a real life story that happened in recent memory? Why not just make up a story from scratch? They do this in order to capitalize on pop culture and twist it until it is unrecognizable from the truth. I don't think it is entertaining at all. It's cringy AF. Side note: Argo is a CIA propaganda film lol. Why else would they make the US government look like the hero in that story? You know the CIA has an official Hollywood liason office? Of course you don't...

@Mastaace 9 ай бұрын

4:10 Our Man in Tehran is a great documentary for anyone interested in this story.... Way more interesting than Argo. Also I just learned yesterday that Norm Nixon is portrayed by his own son which is kinda cool... I wonder if that lead to his portrayal being more realistic