Cheers, and thanks for the additional info!

The church didn't spin the story the above video did. Incomplete story. She only was sealed to Smith after death. She has her kids through another earthly marriage. Read my post above yours to get the truth you missed.

Helen Mar Kimbell wa one of the leading promoters of Plural marriage until the fay she died. Best tell the rest of the story.

No it's not!

It wasn’t sexual, even tho he had to MARRY her, not, say, adopt her as a daughter. Just....EW!!!

Can you imagine being a father of a 14 yo girl and willingly give her to a 37 yo ?! He was so brainwashed that he did that to his own child. Sad.

@@colleenjohnstoncomedy3036 Seeing as how Heber Kimball stated that he had "plural married" over 40 women, many of whom his wife Vilate was not aware of, that tells us what kind of character he had.

I'm surprised so many people completely have no understanding of this time period. On the day Joseph Smith was sealed to Helen he was also sealed to her entire family.. it was called the law of adoption. 4 years later she was married and sealed to her husband. Please folks learn some church history also consider if every sealing is a marriage.

That's a good point about the next few prophets! I suppose the push to absolve Joseph above the others is because he is second only to Jesus in the eyes of the church.

@@NEMOTHEMORMON - except for Joseph boasted that he did more than Jesus to keep the church together. My guess is they value Joseph as greater than Jesus but would never verbalize it. Just my thought

Techincally true. Though Christ offered his perfect sacrifice for us, Joseph would live much longer into the ministry, whereas Christ had around 3 years to grow the church and then give or take 10- 20yrs with the apostles carrying things onward.

Yeah, unfortunately!

The angel with a drawn sword never happened. Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy. Brigham Young framed Joseph Smith and put all the blame on him. It was Brigham Young all along that was the polygamist and he did it behind Joseph's back. If you look at Joseph's sermons. He fought polygamy fiercely till the day he died. It's Brigham Young's dirty secret that he got away with. Brighamites have adopted his false teachings and his "Celestial marriage" nonsense.

Now you are commanding the heavens to come down at your will, address your own vanity, and tempt God. God sends his friends down to help us in times of need. Not when we rationalize our own carnal minds. "God should do this for me, not this."

My biggest problem with this incident is this: The LDS demon god actually threatened Smith with death if he did not directly disobey Christ's teachings as found in Matthew 19.

How many men over 35 married teenage girls?

If you read the writing on the wall it wasn’t about eternity at all. He knew he was lying from the beginning and had no guilt. That’s a narcissist. And a narcissist most often is very sexual!

Even sillier is the fact that Helen was the daughter of one of his 12 apostles, so she didn't need to be "sealed" to Smith to improve her standing in the afterlife. Also consider the fact that, as Nemo points out, every scriptural justification for practicing polygamy was to "raise up seed." Not much point in plural marrying a 14 year old if you aren't planning to impregnate her at some point.

@@randyjordan5521 Joseph was probably waiting until she was 16 before impregnating her. He was killed before he could do so.

@@Zodiacalesotericmatrix Smith's motivation wasn't getting women pregnant, but getting to have sex with a lot of different women. Considering that he was already having sex with numerous other women, it's likely that he simply didn't get the opportunity to nail Helen before he died. Also keep in mind that for the last two years of his life, he had to severely curtail his affairs because of John C. Bennett's expose' of polygamy and William Law & Co.'s dissension.

We don't know why he did it. For that matter, the church is significantly different today. A Temple sealing did not require earth marriage. By today's standards, the church at the beginning, was a bit odd versus today.

Who said I wouldn’t accept it from Jeff’s? He can do whatever he wants to do long as it’s voluntary and complies with “current” law. Do you engage in straw man arguments often? No, I’m not saying that a 15 year olds should get married but I have cousins (Baptists, not Mormons) who got married at 15 in Alabama and no one complained (circa 1970s). In the 1800s, when so many died in their 30s, getting married young was likely more palatable. You are judging a 14-15 of that age with one today, two different worlds. Again, as I said earlier. During this time period, every state but Delaware had an age of consent at TEN, and in Delaware it was SEVEN. So look at all the facts before hoisting your biases against JS.

​@@Icriedtoday What a tedious and parsed response. Disgusting really. Of course it's not "voluntary." Regardless of the law, they are children, and not mature enough, to be informed enough, to consent to a marriage contract with a person twenty-three years senior! Not to mention the penalties impressed on them if they dared to refuse (Coercion). This is my only reply to you. It is NEVER okay for older men or women to marry child brides or grooms. It is a disgusting and harmful practice on par with pedophilia. To argue that it is, or was, okay; because other people did, or it was customary to the time, or that it was dynastic - not sexual, makes no difference! It is, it was, it always will be Evil. No matter who participates in it. Royalty or Carpetbagger. It ought to be repulsive and draw out an inner desire to protect children, not defend reproachable practices or people.

Thank God for Secular Morals.

Exactly! I hate when I hear, "well, they didn't have sex". Um, a 23 yr age gap is the problem here! It's predatory behavior.

@@Icriedtoday - ummmm ... you should look into the facts too before hoisting your own confirmation bias. You only look for information to support what you already believe. You read somewhere that the life expectancy in the 1800s was in the 30s. So you stop there and didn't look any further because, with that surface-level information, you can confirm your bias that what Joseph Smith (and others) did was normal for their time. Just present facts, and allow the facts to shape what you believe ... don't cherry pick facts to confirm your belief. Facts: The infant mortality rate was extremely high in the 1800s. A high # of early deaths (ages 0-5 years old) skew the average life expectancy age (simple math). If a child survived to pass 5 years of age, they can go on to live a long and normal life. If what you say is true, then doesn't it seem odd that most everyone in early Mormon history lived well past their 30s? You haven't thought that far ahead because you only want to use information to confirm your own bias, not to get to the truth of the matter. I did about 15 minutes of Wiki research on the ages of prominent Mormon people, and I copied/paste the info into this post. I list the ages at death of almost all Joseph's wives, his immediate family, and early church founders. * disclaimer - the ages could be off by 1 year depending on if they had a birthday on the year of their death* - Joseph Smith’s Wives ages from Oldest-Youngest - 97, 96, 95, 95, 85, 84, 84, 83, 82, 82, 80, 77, 76, 75, 75, 73, 72, 71, 68, 68, 68, 65, 64, 58, 55, 48, 48, 48, 46, 35, 30, 31, and a few death dates I could not find (Melissa Lott, Olive Andrews, Flora Ann Woodworth, and Maria Lawrence) - Joseph Smith’s Family ages from Oldest-Youngest - Sister Katherine Smith 87, Brother William Smith 83, Mom Lucy Mack 81, Sister Sophronia Smith 73, Uncle John Smith 73, Dad Smith Sr 69, Brother Hyrum Smith 44, Brother Samuel Smith 32, Brother Alvin Smith 25, Brother Don 25 - Founders of the LDS Church from Oldest-Youngest - Martin Harris 92, Sidney Rigdon - 83, John Taylor - 79, Brigham Young - 76, Wilford Woodruff - 69, Oliver Cowdery 46, Joseph Smith 41 There goes your theory that people married early because they only lived to their 30s in the 1800s. Now you have to find another reason to justify Joseph's appetite for women. Can't wait to see what you have to offer. Just face it man ... Joseph got caught by Emma banging the maid (Fanny) and used his position and authority to usher in "new revelation" about plural marriage so that he can have teenagers, other men's wives, and whomever else he can persuade.

Me too! Very excited!!

Absolutely, my pleasure!

@ Lee M - I understand what you’re saying but I have an issue with saying “some people find joy in the church and may they continue to be happy”. The ends do not justify the means. It’s not healthy to live a lie for happiness. There is also happiness in truth and I believe it’s dangerous to remain living in a lie. The longer you live in it the more damage it will do when the truth is discovered. Eventually the truth always comes out. So their perceived happiness now does not justify the destruction they will encounter later. Keep promoting truth and that will set them free to enjoy more happiness. That’s been my personal experience and my experience with many others

You’re welcome! I’m not sure I warrant Hero stays though 😂

Hey Logan! *waves* :)

Trapped about sums it up, stuck between the prophet and her father!

How do you know she was trapped? You just supposed that according with what you think, could be right, could be wrong

Exactly! Why use a 14 year old child as chattel?

Helen’s had no problem giving his 14 year daughter to a 37 year old man, the whole thought process of her father’s reasoning should raise some red flags. Was her father already taking liberties with her, did he see his daughter as a piece of property to be bartered.

@@SteveSmith-os5bs The latter. Heber Kimball himself "plural married" more than 40 women. "I think no more of taking a wife, than I do of buying a cow"."---Heber C. Kimball That is what he thought of women as human beings.

A 14 year old isn't a child.

@@baldwinthefourth4098 Well a 14 year old isn't an adult either. What exactly are you trying to say?

Exactly, otherwise that would be moral relativism, something the church teaches against.

Oh my! The way you said that just there….that made me feel a certain way! 😂 spot on!

Modern moral scrutiny isn't perfect. And it is of course reasonable and factual to understand that prophets are products of their time. Consult your Old Testament. Personal revelation and flow freely and without compulsory means yet it is also demanding of purity. And a sound mind. Prophets need to learn this just like everyone else needs to. The only perfect moral scrutiny is of God. And men must be Born again to understand it.

I’m really glad they help, thanks for watching!

I fully agree, thank you Nemo!!

Fair point!

Thanks for watching!

Hahaha! Totally makes it better!

Well, at 15 she'd be a Mia Maid instead of a Beehive. That's better?? ;) Ugh, whoever wrote that line was really reaching for straws to make it sound okay.

​@@tracy8359 She would still be a Mia Maid at 14 though! I remember being in Mia Maids and being told to write about qualities I want my future husband to have.

Nice one.

@@veronicahaney6005 A BYU roommate from Kaysville said in high school senior year home ec, the girls planned their weddings. She had a scrapbook with pix she cut out of magazines, brochures for exotic honeymoon destinations and of course pix of the SL temple. All she needed was the return missionary to make it happen.

Thanks for the comment! Any sources you could share on that would be great!

But, back in those days, women weren't allowed to own property.

@@MegaJohn144 but Joseph gave land deeds to many women in Nauvoo, most of them were his wives.

@@NEMOTHEMORMON 8:48

Thank you!

Your mistake was reading "no man knows my history". Found it on my mission and it emitted a darkness to it. Later found out it truly was Anti. The church isn't Mormonism. Its the church of Christ with ordinances and covenants which must be received physically and spiritually. The Gospel is our beautiful path back to God's presence. The Holy Spirit was trying to teach you that when you were attending the temple. But you stopped worshipping there. Never understanding the principles of eternity.

@@reaper3516If Brodie's book was not a threat to the church and was just "anti" as you call it, why did the church have Fawn excommunicated?

She wanted to leave. So the church responded to that desire.

​@scottbrandon6244 don't ask me. Ask your 15.

You’re very welcome!

Thank you so much!

Yes, Shannon Cauldwell-Montez has done some brilliant research into this!

@@NEMOTHEMORMON Not to mention Michael Quinn. www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V18N01_11.pdf

Thank you very much!

Do you have a link to that letter?

@@NEMOTHEMORMON After leaving the church, dissenter Catherine Lewis reported Helen saying: “I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than a ceremony.” Source: "Catherine Lewis, Narrative of Some of the Proceedings of the Mormons; Giving an Account of their Iniquities" (Lynn, Mass: by the author, 1848), 19. I found it in "Joseph Smith's Polygamy", a website owned by an active LDS couple.

Glad it was helpful!

You are very welcome!

Thanks for listening!

Some differences, but both polygamists, both married to underage girls.

@@NEMOTHEMORMON Isolation Grooming Told what to wear Tithe Own government Own law enforcement Shall I continue?

I’m sure you’re right. Honestly, I don’t know enough about Jeffs!

If you have any resources I’d love to learn more about him!

@@NEMOTHEMORMON Same character, different century. Feel free to listen to Jeffs telling his child bride what to do on their wedding day. Listen to his own children tell how he molested them. Watch how he built a temple in Texas after he left his followers on the Utah/Arizona border in poverty. Listen to his followers stories on how they were sent away for not following his orders.

Cheers!

We’ll do our best 😂😂😂

We didn't manage it, but it was worth it!

kzfaq.info/sun/PL2iZEtQU3lgdibUghiA2iuDYKHUqF5qzm

I believe so yes, 1835?

You're welcome, thanks for the kind feedback!

And how ridiculous that a man could bring another man back to life. PLEEEEEESSSE!!!! So ridiculous. I can't. I can't. I can't even....good grief!

@@davidfrey5654 I wrote that comment 11 months ago when I was really going through something and very angry at the church. If I offended you I apologize. I do believe in God and the Bible. Leaving Mormonism is a process and we go through stages of grief. Now I’m just trying to move on in Christ born again.

@@healthhollow7218 No apologies needed. The point I was trying to make is that there are just as many unbelievable events and stories in the evangelical / protestant / "born again" Christian religions as there are in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. What's harder to believe, that Moses climbed a mountain and saw God in a burning bush or a young man receiving a visit from an angel and showing him golden plates. All religions have their incredible, hard-to-believe stories. As it turns out, God does a lot of shocking things. In the Bible, God sent the angel of death to kill the firstborn sons of the Egyptians. How shocking is that!!! Commanding Joseph Smith to practice polygamy is nothing compared to killing all the firstborn sons of the Egyptians. I hope you'll one day, pick back up the Book of Mormon and give it an honest study. 🙂

@@davidfrey5654 Honestly I gave it 2 years of hard study. I have found Christ and I am so very grateful for that🙏 It was a long journey but I gave it everything I had, and I’m so glad I did! I studied it all. The BOM and the Bible. I ended up reading the Bible again and I truly did gain a knowledge and a relationship with Jesus Christ. I realized what he did for us is enough. He paid it all! Our opinions on the matter are going to clash and that’s ok 😊 I really do wish you the best! God bless!

He seems that way, and like someone I would get on with personally! It is a shame that there seems to be that disconnect and barrier there!

You guys seem to suffer from myopic vision. It is common for people to have more than one marriage in their lifetime. That's why we have multiple sealings to wives and husbands in the temple sealings. For some husbands had 3-4 wives in their lifetime while alive on the earth and some may have children to each one of those different marriages. and some wives had more than one husband in their lifetime with different issue also from those marriages... I see no problem with multiple marriages to those spouses. For not everybody has just only 1 marriage in their lifetime when on the earth.

@@germanslice cool story bro! So how old is your next wife going to be? 14? 15?

Very interesting point, thank you!

I wasn't aware of this event, I'll look into it!

@@NEMOTHEMORMON Fanny Alger

Cheers for clarifying!

I have a Facebook page, however there aren’t any “native” Facebook videos, they’re all KZfaq links. Do you think It would be good to have them as “native” videos too?

@@NEMOTHEMORMON yes! Because then I can send them to the missionaries who reach out to me. They can’t view KZfaq videos but they can watch them if they are on Facebook natively.

Exactly!

My pleasure, thank you for your support!

It's a computer de-aging, so it's fairly accurate but obviously not an image from the time!

Could be, although I'm unaware of any sources that point to that. If you find anything, let me know!

abortions and other birth control methods. John C Bennett was known to perform abortions. Hyrum Smith said as much in an affidavit, Orsen Pratt and Sarah Pratt also say that was the case. " Bennett told Sarah Pratt "that he could cause abortion with perfect safety to the mother at any stage of pregnancy, and that he had frequently destroyed and removed infants before their time to prevent exposure of the parties, and that he had instruments for that purpose." If the women refused, Bennett stated that he came with Joseph's approval. Sarah Pratt herself recounted an incident in which“ [Bennett was en route to do] "a little job for Joseph [because] one of his women was in trouble." Saying this, he took [out] a pretty long instrument of a kind I had never seen before. It seemed to be of steel and was crooked at one end. I heard afterwards that the operation had been performed; that the woman was very sick, and that Joseph was very much afraid that she might die, but she recovered."

I think he must have children from these marriages. it is pologymist tradition to not take on the name of your husband as a plural wife. the first wifes gets the public last name any wife after that hides under their own last name being that it is illegal as well. Ancestry is owned by the mormon church so if they have proof they are hiding it. I also think Joseph wives seperated from the church and his posterity is housed in one if not many of the offshoots of polygamy. Polygamist groups are very secretive and not willing to take ancestry most of the time. I think the jeffs group look alot like him just saying

Thanks for tagging!

You mean the interview where he said it isn't doctrinal? Despite the fact that it is in Doctrine & Covenant 132 and he must surely know that? I've watched that one already, but I'd be interested to hear your take on it!

I think going against His commandments in the Bible would be a good tip-off that it’s not God that’s talking to you.

Thanks for taking the time comment, you raise some interesting points! My video isn’t built around those points however, they are merely some of the points I make. Reductionist thinking, that some of my points are disagreeable therefore my video is wrong, won’t serve us well here. Cheers for your insight, I will study further into these issues when I get the chance!

@Nemo - Thanks for reading my comments and please read them again. Nowhere did I say your video is wrong! I believe you have some good points! However your assumptions you build around a topic makes your videos “weak sauce” to even deceptive. Saints Unscripted people fall into this same traps. This is not about reductionism. Anti-Mormon people love to do deceptive math all the time. It's their foundation. They present 1 + 2 = 4. Then they spend the rest of the time talking down, making fun of, mocking, building lies around, reading scriptures, all about making 4 wrong! They are all about building doubts in people’s faith. I believe in transparency, but don’t color the water with your assumptions. Then claim you're transparent! Some of us need to talk about 1 and 2. You could help them, but let the spirit help the individual learn of 3 for themselves. Thanks again for listening.

D&C 132:63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

To bear children, to bring new souls to earth.

See, objectively that source is fairly reliable. However, from a mormon perspective, the author is anti-mormon, so therefore, it doesn't matter what she says!

Thanks, I didn’t realise the church relied so heavily on Hales!

@@NEMOTHEMORMON yes one look at the Nauvoo essay and how many times the church sources him. Dan vogal goes over smiths wives calling hales out. I think it fundamentally bothers hales that Joseph Smith had sex with other women besides Emma. And he writes to disprove it. I understand the need to seal family for eternity. But as you pointed out posterity is part of polygamy ie sex. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qNCRopl1zrSWdI0.html

It's not mental gymnastics: Eternity Only (not married until the next life), Time (married in Mortality), Spiritual Wifery (free love/swingers)- denounced by the Church in 1844, men excommunicated for Spiritual Wifery in 1842, one of them accused their worst enemy, the RS as being a harem of Spiritual Wifery, but their public statements that they were not "spiritual wives" were not lies- they were not temporary- pass around the dinner table women... Read everything Emily P. says; she was a TIme and Eternity Wife, she was asked to speak at the temple lot case to prove Joseph Smith was not just sealed to a bunch of Women for Eternity (which as akin to Catholic nuns- NO SEX AT ALL)- Helen bemoaned in Poetry her sealing was for "Eternity Alone"- once you get the likeness to nuns, you get the mocker of Bennett calling the RS "Cloistered" like nuns- but then lying and saying they were being trafficked... why would the pages of Relief Society minutes speak solely, almost, about Restoring Virtue and "Innocense"- that word was used in the Voice of Innocense and the women and men SHOUTED Amen, three times... Emily said Joseph Smith NEVER took liberties, they really... interrogated her if she was seduced- read it here. : catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/6ed3a142-524e-4471-852d-51e8ef422647/0/1 Whitney