Start speaking a new language in 3 weeks with Babbel🎉. Get up to 60% OFF your subscription ➡️ Here: go.babbel.com/t?bsc=1200m60-youtube-shanspeare-oct-2022&btp=default&KZfaq&Influencer..shanspeare..USA..KZfaq - Hello, everyone! I hope this month away has treated you well. Creating this was harder than anticipated-not only for mental health reasons but because everything that COULD have gone wrong, DID go wrong 😖 There were so many setbacks that I didn’t think I’d be able to post. Anyhow, I documented the entire process of creating this video, from researching to set design to costuming. The vlog will appear on my new second channel (link in the description!) and I hope you enjoy it whenever I get around to posting it. Now a little housekeeping: Another conversation that can be seen as an accompaniment to the one covered in this video is the vilification of mental illnesses. I briefly touch upon ableism and how it makes some people think mentally ill people can’t be great artists AT ALL, but I also talk more about vilification in other videos, namely my “YOU” video. I wanted to keep this video tight and focused, so I didn’t go off into many tangents. Just know that no one video of mine will ever be the final word on such broad topics! I could make a billion videos from a billion angles and still not cover it all lol. Let me know your thoughts down below!

i believe good art can come from trauma but this idea that the best art only comes from tortured artists is very harmful.

i used to think like this a lot. if you've ever watched bojack horseman, there's an episode where diane talks about "good damage" and "bad damage." she wants to write a series of essays examining what she went through growing up and in her adulthood, feeling as if she needs to make something out of her trauma, or else it would be useless. diane ultimately moves past this mindset and writes a book about a mall detective. it's not the same deep, emotional story, but it is important for her to write. it makes her feel good, and that's what's important

“Do you know why we have the sunflowers? It’s not because Vincent van Gogh suffered. It’s because Vincent van Gogh had a brother who loved him. Through all the pain, he had a tether, a connection to the world. And that is the focus of the story we need - connection.” Hannah Gadsby I feel this quote so much. In my own experience, suffering makes art way harder to create and it's the positive parts of life that help us keep going.

I love your point about "Van Gogh's mental illness didn't make him a great artist, it scared him". Van Gogh is a special interest of mine, and I hate how people romanticise his struggles. He didn't ingest yellow paint as some tragic metaphor about how he needed to feel happy inside, he ingested paint because it was toxic, and he was trying to harm/kill himself.

during an interview about depression, leonard cohen was asked “do you think if you dealt with the depression and got better you’d lose that artistic side that produced such good work?” and he said “i think good work is created in spite of suffering” it’s kept me creating for so long

As a Sylvia Plath enthusiast one of the most frustrating side effects of the tortured artist idea is how much it flattens these people that it idolizes as tortured geniuses. Sylvia Plath was seen as a funny and joyful person, who saw herself not as destructive or depressed but as tough and driven and full of life. Ariel in its original format ends not in unhappiness but in new life and hope. Van Gogh similarly in his letters expresses intense optimism and love of nature and the world. Portraying these people as doomed to death doesn’t just do us a disservice, but distorts their lives and legacies as well.

Yeah..I always assumed that sadness and angst was the route of anything 'worthy' artistically. Every time I attempted to write anything Happy or upbeat, it felt lame / insincere even if I meant it. I'm reminded of Nanette, when Hannah Gadsby talks about how people romanticize Van Gogh's misery as the source of his greatness and how facile and sh*tty that notion is.

I think neurotypicals find the works of neurodivergent people more compelling, because those are points of view they don't encounter every day. And neurodivergent people live in a world that is not made for them. Which is literally maddening. I think that's where the connection is.

As a depressed retiring musician, it's so brutal trying to create when you feel empty but there's an immense pressure to create a tear-built magum opus when all you wanna do is curl up in a ball and pray that your brain finally goes silent

The tortured artist trope i think had a hand in my struggle with alcoholism. I found a sense of joy in moaping in my bathtub all night drinking. Drug/alcohol use is a very romanticized image in the artistic community. (ive been sober for a few months now and am doing better now btw)

I feel like the reason why so many artist have experiences with mental illness is because art is a form of self expression but also communication. So many young artist that iv'e met including myself started art as a form of escapism from their mental illness. I also think there's a link between neurodivergency and art, how many people with autism or adhd become artists because it gives them the freedom to be themselves. It can also circle back to mental illness, because many neurodivergent people have mental illness due to society being designed against them.

As an artist with bipolar I, I ain't creating a DAMN thing when I'm going through a depression. And when I'm manic I'm lucky if I take a piece to completion. Without medication my output is almost non-existent. So often have I heard this idea that my illness is great for art. It's simply untrue.

i believe even david lynch himself said "“The more the artist is suffering, the less creative he is going to be. It's less likely that he is going to enjoy his work and less likely that he will be able to do really good work.”

I've always wondered why this tortured artist trope has always been popularized and where it came from. I always knew it came from real life with Kurt Cobain being a prime example of that. While it is true that artists have to work hard to perfect their craft both in fiction and in real life, people still buy into it just because of how glamorized it is.

It’s worth noting that the author of the great Oedipus Rex, Sophocles, was said to be an incredibly happy, cheerful person, who liked hanging out with friends and kissing cute boys. He wrote tragedies that we still read and praise today.

The tortured artist trope gave me so much trouble as a teen because. technically I guess I kinda fit into it, since I like to draw (and I used to play the violin and have tried composing music before) and I'm definitely not mentally stable. But then every time I was in a particular bad mood, I just couldn't do any art, I honestly still can't. And more importantly, I've never been able to express my emotions through art, which I always really felt I /should/ be able to do, and it made me feel less both as an artist, and as a mentally ill person (which sounds weird, but it's true lol)

Your closing statements about preferring to be happy and ordinary over tortured and talented reminds me of Sybil Vane from The Picture Of Dorian Grey

I had a friend who defined "artist" as "someone who puts their art above everything else." They would tell me about skipping meals to buy their art supplies, losing sleep to finish their paintings, to them these things meant they were a "real" artist. Like the pain of sacrificing everything for their artistic expression somehow fortified their work. They ended up having a massive breakdown and not being able to create for a while. This video reminds me of them.

I remember one quote that really struck me because of how much I used to believe this "depressed artist" narrative; it's from Ursula K LeGuin: “The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting.” Definitely changed the way I view things

I’ve been told that my writing style consists of tricking people into thinking the story is going to be sad, only for it to be really cute and sweet, and the worst being somewhat melancholic.

As a theatre kid it reminds me the usage of method acting and how many believe you have to be miserable, depressed and mentally out of your mind to get into the characters I always noticed that I can’t think of a method actor who got into a character that wasn’t tragic, that had a happy ending, etc and being a huge music stan/nerd to hip hop music I noticed the weird politics of which types of songs of each genre is respected, like for hip hop the alternative hip hop genre have always been looked down until it’s develop a cultural influence years later or the way sub-genres like mumble rap went through a horrible time where anyone who was part of it and who seem to be part of it was not seen as real hip hop. I feel yes some great art can come from trauma but not every great art has to be rooted in trauma or suffering

I speak spanish and i have to say that what you said was ok... There were some common mistakes but in order to learn you have to make mistakes so keep going!

When I was at the lowest point of my depression, I couldn't dance, or write, or sing and that made me feel so less of an artist, because in my head, a really good artist could transform their suffering into something beautiful or profound

As someone who goes to art school, the students here who seem to succeed in making the most impactful art are the ones who make time for mental and physical self care in order to support their artistic practice. The people who cultivate a "tortured artist" image and brag about their lack of self care are usually struggling to complete their assignments, not thriving. Being unwell whether mentally or physically isn't going to make it easier to make art, and neglecting your health will not aid in a sustainable practice. It is so critical to give yourself enough sleep, nutrition, exercise, and emotional self care (to the best of your ability) to make your best art, and so many people ignore these things in favor of the "tortured artist" image. The problem is so pervasive that many professors will dedicate an entire class period in their course to discussing sustainable professional practices.

I’m an artist and back when I was getting diagnosed, I told my mother of my psychotherapist’s suspicions - she immediately jumped to discounting them and said that it’s normal for an artist to be “a little eccentric”. I’m pretty sure that this was because of a mix of the tortured artist trope + denial (out of shame?). Honestly can’t put into words how I felt when I heard her say that.

I loved the part where you said " Depression isn't a tragically beautiful affliction that can fit into aesthetic gif sets on a pale grunge blog." I've been diagnosed with severe episodes of recurrent major depressive disorder after being put in a psychiatric hold, I've always held a grudge against people who faked or romanticized depression because for me it's not beautiful. it's this huge monster that never leaves and always invites itself into my head whenever it pleases. the worst part is that I'm from a very strict muslim family and I have to explain to them Why I have to take pills and defend myself from defamatory claims and disgusting looks. So when I see other romanticizing depression I get really angry. Sorry for venting I just really can't wrap my head around this.

as someone recently diagnosed with bipolar, THANK YOU FOR THIS!!! back when i was struggling with my (then undiagnosed) depressive episodes i felt OBLIGED to create, to have something, ANYTHING to show for the immense pain i was going through… and the fact that i COULDN’T made me feel worse, even more inept, like my suffering was all in vain because it had no audience to benefit from it.

this is absolutely a topic ive struggled with as an artist, super cool to see you dive into it!! im pretty passionate about the idea its generally not cool to boil down most of the skill and effort of an artist to hone their craft into their mental illness or anguish. (thats not to say anguish cant bring the artist to make great art that would not have existed otherwise)

A few month ago, Will Wood released a new album, completely different from what he's done before. Will Wood had a history of dealing with mental illnesses, as well as always being extremely associated with him (despite him not necessarily asking for it : just the way fans work). In this new album, he really brought that up, and how staying in the "disturbed" artist mindset wasn't what made him good. He made anotations on GENIUS on his albums lyrics and i thought I'd shared some here because they are really interesting for this discussion: (lyrics :)" So this is what I choose to do with my redeeming quality That thing that came from the same place as my instability" (Will Wood :) I was sort of thinking about how studies (and my own experience) show a link between creativity and emotional instability, and it’s not uncommon for artists to eschew trying to get better in terms of their mental health in order to avoid losing their creative edge. The implication there, however, is that one’s creativity is the most worthy part of them - their “redeeming quality” (singular), in the face of the flaws and failures that can come from its comorbid instability. But how much of a “gift” can creative talent really be if it comes at a price like that? The line is sort of just self deprecation, like most of the song, combined with a bit of a lament of that relationship and the internal conflict that can arise from acknowledging it. Another one on the same song : I once had someone tell me I was “positive mental illness representation” and it made me want to eat my own head. It’s an impossible standard to uphold, because the symptoms of mental illness that if shown would be realistic representation, would not be positive representation. Mental illness is not positive. It’s bad. It’s not quirky, it’s not just a MBTI result for your profile, a TikTok dance, or a self-applied identity to invoke for political discourse on the internet. It’s an ugly, awful thing that you don’t want to have, and the symptoms of it aren’t going to turn you into a “credit to your people” or whatever. I’m sort of saying that I can’t be expected to be the champion of other peoples' belief systems and to exemplify their ideologies, especially if I’m also expected to be the impossible role model psycho

As an artist and someone with mental illnesses I can say that most of my “good” art come out when I’m actually not depressed or worrying in any way because that’s when I have clear mind to concentrate on my thoughts and I’m actually able to make something meaningful. Mental illness can be used as a source of inspiration but at the end of the day most art you make will be when you actually feel good and relaxed. Great video btw ❤

This video's thesis reminds me a lot of Florence Welch, my personal favorite """"tortured""" artist, who has experienced struggles with mental illness and drug addiction that inspired a lot of her early songs, but importantly is recovering from her addictions and trying to live her life better, and her songs reflect that. I think about No Choir, "And it's hard to write about being happy 'coz the older I get, I find that happiness is an extremely uneventful subject. And there will be no grand choirs to sing, no chorus will come in about two people sitting doing nothing." And I think about Daffodil, written during the height of the pandemic, "I couldn't help it, Yes, I let it get in, the helpless optimism of spring. Worn out and tired, and my heart near retired, and the world bent double from weeping. And yet the birds begin to sing!" Happiness is not mutually exclusive from art but intrinsic, both in its presence and its absence. The holistic, well-rounded human experience is the foundation of good art, upon which skill, practice, and care are applied to produce something worthwhile.

Wow that was fantastic. As someone who has been in recovery the past few years I've often feared that my getting better was at the expense of my art... Glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks about these things. Wishing well to whoever reads this comment... It's a rough road to travel but we're not alone!

I’m a full time fine artist and I can vouch that this tortured artist stereotype isn’t relevant or useful these days. Im currently going through a depressive episode (after a solo show and my studio is empty, feeling sad and confused, imposter syndrome etc) and I’m not even painting because I feel so down and unmotivated and overly critical. This past summer I was painting non stop because I was so happy and inspired. I think the tortured artist trope is damaging and not good for any creative. Love that you touched on this!

This is actually a topic I feel strongly about. I say actually just because…well I guess because most people aren’t passionate about this topic? You seem to find all my sweet spots.

This is exactly how I feel about art that's catered to "adults". Adult material is not always superior or more meaningful than art catered to kids. And dark, edgier movies aren't suddenly deeper than movies with a lighter touch. Some of them are just overdramatic, while lighter material can often capture reality neatly. Great video.

The sets. The costumes. The content. The ✨artistry ✨ We don't deserve this queen 😭❤️

Thank you for this. I believe it is so disgusting to romanticize being depressed because 'it makes good art'. Touching on Kurt Cobain, part of this mentality is what led to his inevitable downfall. He'd turn down things that'd do well for his band because he didn't want to be considered a "sellout". And when Nirvana signed to a major label he got attacked so viciously he had to lie about not liking Smells Like Teen Spirit because he wouldn't be "punk enough." Courtney Love struggled with the same thing, having to lie about her wealthy childhood because she'd get discredited for her work.

this is interesting to consider when i think about my eating disorder as a pre-professional dancer. i have since recovered, but at the time i thought that restricting would (reading words directly from my diaries at the time): "make me be ethereal, willowy, weightless. not be ruled out as soon as i walk through the door. be beyond temptation- if i'm not dedicated enough to restrict myself, i'm not dedicated enough to be a dancer." whenever i reprimanded myself for eating "too much" i would always say, "is this the kind of artist you are?" now i've flipped that question on its head. whenever i catch myself thinking something disordered, i ask, "is this the kind of artist you are?" i am not the kind if artist who chases a counterproductive goal, who makes dance formulaic and mechanical by reducing it to numbers, to shapes. i am not the kind of artist who wastes her time trying to contort and suck her body dry. i don't have to, and in fact, CAN'T torture myself in order to be a better artist.

As someone who drew because she was sad and just wanted to make pretty and happier things, this was a breathe of fresh air

the only tortured madness i feel as an artist is whenever my 3d program crashes after i didnt save for an hour...

The emulating tuberculosis symptoms makes me think of the dominance of heroin chic in the 90s, and how it was so tied to a kind of gothic aesthetic.

Oof, this one definitely hit in the feels. As someone who is an artist and is currently going through a depressive episode, the fact that I'm unable to sit down and do what I love feels like a gut punch. Especially since the "tortured artist" is supposed to be the end all be all of artistry. I also really love the fact that you brought up the fact that depression is more like un brushed teeth and dirty bodies instead of the romanticized view people have of it. For a long time I was definitely of the train of "I'm not depressed, I just feel empty and don't feel like doing the things I love." Felt like a train wreck when I realized that *is* depression. Thanks for the lovely video. I always really enjoy your content, but this one was a kick in the gut in the best way possible 💜

back in my deviant-art days, i was probably 13-15 back then, i honestly thought you *have* to be depressed and suicidal to be a good artist because i saw "everyone else" be exactly that (lots of vent art and self depreciation), so i convinced myself that id hate myself and to want to die now i just go with "create something?->artist" ez bit of a self harm trigger warning i guess: i was literally *proud* of myself for giving myself a _1 cm very shallow(?)_ cut on my finger after getting a test back that i failed after studying hard (it looked like an ordinary paper cut, so nothing "substantial"(?)/deep) i showed my finger to anyone i could catch and even my mom who then scolded(?) me (something like "you see that? i did that!!" but with the tone/motivation of someone who just saw a really cool movie) idk if it was then or a little later when i took a 180(?) and now, still have such a visceral reaction to anyone even jokingly saying "i wanna die" around 2 years ago, i once got so angry when i saw a tweet going "can i just cry, thats already enough to make me an artist" ill turn 20 this year, while i have some problems (aggrivating dysphoria and loneliness to some extent), ill fight tooth and nail to never get back into that self induced destructive mindset bottom text

A lot of the times, people need to rest when they’re dealing with a bad episode. They shouldn’t feel pressured to produce a magnum opus during it. They just need some time to heal, and it doesn’t always include making art for an audience.

Honestly I think some of my worst art is the stuff I make while depressed. Not stuff I make while I’m processing negative emotions normally, mind you, those turn out fine usually. Idk one of my main coping mechanisms is writing poetry and the stuff I’ve made about choosing to live is tolerable to read. (cw talking about self deactivation by the way) I wrote a poem about choosing to live by describing an invisible door, one that exists on every wall, that can’t be seen but can be felt, and choosing to leave it locked. The door was heavily implied to lead to death, or whatever comes after. To this day I’m still pretty proud of it. My mid-breakdown poems are so bad that I usually delete them the next day because they usually end up reading like “hey what if the worms who will decompose my body after I die actually love me”. I revert to an edgy 13 year old when sad. I read those poems and I just want to ruffle sad-me’s hair and tell them to take a nap.

I distinctly remember my dad once telling me that some of the best art comes from artists who have a darkness inside them, and so the darkness inside me may be just what I must have to create the art I create. I did not write stories because I was "an artist". I wrote stories because I was desperate for release, from how incredibly depressed I was because of untreated gender dysphoria, internalized transphobia, and living so deep in the closet. When I finally had the space to come out, my inspiration did leave me for a while. I did wonder for a minute if I would ever write again, which made me sad, but I never doubted it was worth it to actually be at peace (like, wait, people can actually be happy in life???). It's been 2 years, and I am writing again. I actually think I will be a better writer now, because I'm not writing the same dark, tortured vent stories I did back then. I can actually grow and expand. I am a better artist for actually healing and releasing the darkness.

I think it’s a popular trope solely because there are SO many people who are suffering, and none of us want to feel like it was for nothing, so we try to create out of the trauma.

What makes the suffering artist's art good is not because they are suffering. It is because they use that turmoil in a positive way, and above all, what makes some of their art the best is the hope they find in it. Any inkling of hope in their suffering, from the world around them, gives them the want to create something good from the bad. To express their pain and show how pain can ultimately be a good thing if you don't let it demolish your life and use it. This is from me, someone who breathes art in all its forms. Poetry and drawing especially, as well as starting painting. I am melancholic, and I feel alienated. But I know what gives me hope and I know my poetry is powerful because I can ruminate in dark emotions with no inhibition, because I know that is not all there is. I could be considered a suffering or suffered artist, but what makes what I create impactful is how I can breathe life into it, something arguably dead. I know how to bring joy to my suffering and life in a very similar fashion. After all, art represents life and vice versa.

As a chronically ill person my take on this is that going through a period of suffering, whatever the causation, can give one a new perspective of and appreciation for the world, for life, for the human existence. It's not so much that it takes pain to create good art, but that good art comes from pausing and examining the aforementioned, something that many live their entire lives without doing.

I was just ranting about how people perceive and remember Vincent van Gogh, what timing

I know for myself, writing, painting or playing the piano has always been therapeutic. Now that I work in the realm of physics, I’ve come to believe that there’s mental illness to be found in every field. It just so happens that the nature of art as a more personal subject results in artists better documenting their struggles than other professions

The "tortured artist" thing honestly breaks my heart as someone with bipolar and BPD. It makes me feel guilty that I cannot make anything beautiful or artistic out of my pain and "madness." I think one of the reasons this idea is so popular is that if we don't celebrate pain, illness, and trauma as something that leads to beauty, creativity, or wisdom, then we might have to accept that bad things just happen and nothing good comes from them. That's a hard thing for a lot of people to accept. Waste is a hard thing to accept. Wasted time, wasted pain, wasted madness. Well that's been most of my life so far. Waste.

In some ways, it’s true. Some of my best stories that I love the most dearly would *not exist* if not for the worst experiences in my life. But when I’m having an episode, when I’m sobbing curled up in a ball that’s when I lose everything - I can’t focus on anything but the bad. It was only when I overcame those hardships, the ‘torture’, that I was able to truly make art. It was not the bad experience, but overcoming it that made it worth it. I believe you can make good art out of bad experiences, but bad experiences don’t make good art.

The faking tuberculosis is something I’m a lil hung up on, because back then they wouldn’t of been able to test for chronic illness/conditions or anaemia ect? Why someone would fake exhaustion for fashion is beyond me.

maybe we artists are so sad because no one appreciates our work its easy to fall into a state of madness when you are all but ignored until death

The tortured artist trope is frustrating as it's the same as people portraying mental illness as glamorous waifs who remain pretty through suffering. It's gross honestly as the expectation for "truth" only comes from pain (as you said here) and that it's a beautiful thing, if it's not, then the people get left behind.

something that never comes up in conversations like these, though i keep waiting to see it discussed, is that the myth of the tortured artist can be discouraging even if you _aren't_ tortured: either it leaves you clinging to your torture if you have it, or it leaves you feeling unworthy or banal if you don't. it takes me back to when i'd just started learning to write, and to experiment creatively in private, at which time i felt burdened by an utter lack of interiority. on the one hand, i'd internalized that you shouldn't romanticize mental illness, because it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. on the other hand, i still felt psyched out of doing anything half the time, because while i understood being ill didn't make you an artist, i couldn't get my head around the idea that a healthy, ordinary person could be- it seemed to me like pulling thick feeling out of thin air. so it was presented as an either-or, as it almost always is, even at the end of this video (no offense): either take the muses and the poison, or take neither. but it feels like a false choice either way. i think it's not enough to do away with the tortured artist narrative. we need a satisfying narrative to replace it with.

Also, the act of creating something in itself is a therapeutic and cathartic experience. Some artists need that drive to perform excellence just to cope with the crushing doubt and meaninglessness of it all.

i'm super early and haven't even watched the entirety of this video, but from the perspective of a wannabe-writer/general-creative: at times i believe i am far too guilty of glorifying this trope because of how it makes me feel better about myself; it makes me feel as if my so-called "suffering" is what will improve my craft, because i feel that only within the times where i cannot leave my room or undress at the fear of seeing my body that i am the most creative and productive; even the times where i cannot sleep because my brain cannot comprehend reality, that i create the most [although it's often during the times i feel more sad that i create effective]; it's the only way i can escape myself; it gives me an excuse to feel terribly when nothing is wrong with me; it absolves me of my guilt from suicide attempts and self-harm because i know i'm not mentally ill; i'm just sad a lot; whenever i get over myself and come back out of my ghost-like state, i reap the rewards of what i was finally able to compose and write during that time; i know nothing is wrong with me and that i'm just a cry-baby, but damn; as toxic as the trope is, it certainly can provide comfort that my apprent "suffering" is just the manifestation of me finally becoming a proper creative; it makes me feel worth something because i finally connect with my friends and the people around me and understand, on a extremely smaller scale, but still on some way, how they feel; not that i'd ever say this to them, but the suffering artist trope makes me feel whole, because it excuses my idiosyncrasies edit: neat video, especially the portion surrounding the legitimacy of pain and how that can effect one's work; insightful as always :>

Omg I took a six month, 16 credit program in college on how mental health (going through much of the DSM-5) affects our creation of art. This is my jam

I wasted so much time when I was young believing that in order to be a great artist I had to let my depression devour me. Now I'm healthier and make more art than I ever did back then. I make better work when I'm creating out of love for the medium rather than fear of never being good enough.

I romanticize my depression. “this is the human experience, I’m truly here in reality.” As if somehow it is a validation that I don’t live in some program or contrived reality. This is real and that’s why I feel this way. It is, what I believe, allowed me to momentarily overcome depression and reach a thing I think is called, “normal”.

The background is absolutely breathtaking. I love the dark vides!

I’m a musician and I’ve written some songs in the past about about my childhood trauma but I have to be honest it is extremely painful for me to even think about releasing these songs for clout. I do not want to because for my own health I don’t want to keep digging out these painful memories and having to sing these songs for years. I think music is therapy but musicians shouldn’t feel forced to dig out their trauma to feel relatable. I prefer to write happy songs and songs about characters. Not every song lyric needs to be Shakespeare to connect with people.

As someone who goes through worst depression in my life so far, i can honestly tell you that shit isn't artists favorite muse, it's something that turns your love into hate, my mind is so fogged up and out of it that it doesn't make me want to do anything period, let alone create heres the thing with van gogh, he best known work or in fact all his art in general were painted when he was taking care of himself, taking meds and he had a caring brother who always took care of him, in no way vincent would have made starry nights and sunflowers when he was at his lowest, but you know what he did? cut his fucking ear off.

i appreciate you sharing your experience with bipolar, first of all. and i know this wasnt the point, but i wish i had more artistic urges?? i consider myself a good musician, writer, and painter, as long as im playing songs someone else wrote or following a another painter and copy their technique. even my manic episodes dont provide me with any creativity to construct my own pieces/paintings/etc. sometimes i write for incredibly long stretches, but similar to your experience, the things i come up with don't make any sense once i come back down. Hard being just tortured and not an active artist

Being a Fine Arts student everyone or almost everyone looks sad and it’s very existentialism

Exactly! Acknowledge that a lot of great art comes as a result of the creator trying to cope, express, or otherwise live with their mental health issues, but STOP ROMANTICIZING THAT AS THE STANDARD!

when i was diagnosed with bipolar II, i was sitting in the psychiatrists office having a moment trying to process and as i sat there, my psychiatrist happily chimed in with "well, you're an artist, right? a lot of great artists had bipolar disorder- it makes a great artist." and i think it was his attempt to be comforting but it made me feel....like i should be grateful for the disorder, like it was the only reason why i got where i was, it was the only thing that made me an artist. even now, years later, i struggle with my self esteem revolving art and separating my disorder from my creative process. its fucked up. art isn't all trauma, there's so much more than that.

I wanted to say I love Shansphere content so much. Their video essays are so complex, nuanced, entertaining, and throughly researched. Shansphere also is also such a sincere, nice and caring person. Thank you so much Shansphere for your videos!

Viewing myself in this way is the only justification for life I have anymore….

I'm a graphic designer. Moody a* b* and the creative people I know all struggle with something. I think there is a deeper connection... you don't want to create art when you don't have a message to tell, and you have a message when you've been angry 😂 I feel I'm super productive in my depressive phases, when I'm doing good I just want to go out and live, get some inspiration...

I always get more work and my better pieces done when I'm happy. It's a weird feeling, like I wasn't doing this right for a while. But after a number of years, I said, frick it and now I just do what I want! 😀

For me when I was at my worst I wasn't making good art. I felt nothing tor the thing I used to love. I wasn't even making any art at all. I stopped loving art and all my motivation for it melted away, which only made me feel more horrible. When I tried to make art I was just scared that my love for it would never truly come back sometimes I feel like it hasn't but I'm working on it.

Your art isn't better because you're suffering, yet your art is worse if you make others suffer. How is this possible?

it’s kinda crazy how you always manage to make videos for ME and absolutely no one else. you’re amazing and thank you for yet another amazing video 🙏🏼💖💖💖

I’ve struggled with clinical depression since I was 12 years old and honestly I’m at my most creative when I’m not in the midst of a major depressive episode where all I want to do is sleep and lie on the couch and retreat from the world. I barely have enough energy to leave the house let alone create something beautiful or meaningful. I may think poetic thoughts and find beauty in the morose and macabre but channeling that into something creative rather than self destructive becomes an overwhelming and ultimately futile process while actively depressed.

Our girl out here upping the production quality every video, and her skin is LUMINOUS

This is such a good point!! I remember talking to one of my coworkers and he would boast about how he was depressed and did not feel nothing at all, and when I suggested going to counseling to help with that all he could say to me was "My art is better now so I won't seek help", in reality his art was mediocre at best and all he was doing was making everyone around him miserable and suffer for no reason at all, I actually quit because he had an outburst of anger and it was insufferable for my other coworkers and me. media an social media has given us this idealized suffering as the way to make great things giving us examples of great minds whom reached the pinnacle of perfection because of mental illnesses when in reality a healthy mind is the route to great expression and creativity and that my guys is toxic af

I used poetry as my survival. Yes, the desperation and utter rawness of the writing was something that I look back on with a certain appreciation, but it was so excruciating. Creating art as a last hope is an incredibly powerful thing, and it can lead to some incredible pieces, because of its inherent passion. But it is not necessary to create powerful art. I am no longer depressed, but I still make art and hat I personally find moving and beautiful. Art from joy is just as beautiful as art from anguish. This is why I love writing, it takes in any emotion with open arms and helps you create a mark in time, a window into how you felt in that moment. Despair is not necessary for art, yet in some cases, art is necessary for despair. I love that I have written during complete hopelessness and during incredible euphoria, and even in contentment or longing. The diversity of feeling in writing is what I find most beautiful, it allows you to feel what the author felt, and appreciate the human experience.

I had a conversation about this topic with my mother. I went to a public visual art school, set in the middle of an urban area, during my high school years. In that school, there was a lot of people with diagnosed mental illnesses, and not just ADHD or depression. I talked to one of my friends who went to a school more focus on science and math with her telling me there were not that many people openly talking about a diagnosis. I though, why does art seem attracted so many people with mental illness? Well, its because art is more expressive. Thats the appeal of it. Why is there the stereotype of artist being queer? Because they tend to be more open about it. I think most people have a touch of "madness" inside them. Due to the nature of art being a form of expression, artists are encouraged to tap into it. Art can also be a form of coping, being able to physically see what you are feeling wether it be in words or shapes.

As someone who’s finally in (mostly) recovery for lifelong mental illnesses, I created my best work after I dug myself out of the hole. After I stopped projecting my personal insecurities onto every one of my characters was I personally finally able to make great art. I’m sure there’s depressed accountants too. Sadness =\= Great Art

Ján and Jan is a very common name between a lot of countries in Europe, so you may encounter it, if you want to pronounce it correctly, or at least want to get close to it, pronounce it as yawn :) Also, Stańczyk is the name of a polish jester, who used to help the king, and to be honest if you do not speak or are not polish it is impossible to pronounce.. even us from contries who's languages are close, there are just things you cannot pronounce.. for example, slovak and czech, even though our languages are incredibly similar, us slovak people struggle to say ř and our czech neighbours struggle to say ô.. '^'

art comes from emotions. Suffering is among the strongest. Its not good to suffer, its stupid to think that the strength of those emotions cant influence quality.

I love to see emotion in art. But it should be beyond sadness. I think we will find as much emotional value in a portrait of the painter’s loved one as we will in a painting of a city done by a painter that wants to kill themself It’s all having emotional fluidity, understanding too much of something isn’t good for you

in my experience, i make the best art when i am happily indulging in things that i am passionate about. i can’t be passionate about my art if my depression or anxiety is keeps me from leveling out what i want to plan or even if i just wanna sketch.

Will watch now, but first thought: when I'm sad, there simply won't BE any art/"art", cos it means I'm too depressed to function, and I'm glad if i manage to do the dishes and feed myself.

the more i learn about academia, the happier i am that i didn’t go to art school.

All I gotta say is that you are MAD creative.

just wanted to say how proud i am of how the production of these videos have improved over time, but no pressure to create video essays like this! the aesthetics are a nice touch, but i’ll always come back for the eloquently described and well researched perspectives. idk if you have a blog or newspaper, but i’d really love more frequent thought provoking tidbits that don’t require as much production or effort to create.

I would highly recommend reading Project Blue. It's a manga showcasing the life of an aspiring artist (student) and it will show you every single issue artists are phasing trying to make a living from art. I'm an artist and ngl I suffer from the very fact that I can't make a living of living my dream, which is art. I'm not popular, I'm still learning, I dropped out of design school from stress, and I'm unemployed. I'm 23 but time is ticking away as I'm still figuring out: "Art as my main job or just a hobby while i do something I don't care about?"

Well.. I'm an artist who's struggling with mental illness. I always hate how cliche that sounds. But I do definitely NOT make more or better art when I'm doing bad lol. Art is a serious struggle for me when I'm at my worst because I'll have no motivation for anything, my brain fog is to the max so I can't focus on the steps, and I'll just hate everything I make. Art has nothing to do with sadness imo. It can, but it's not the reason why people make art. I'm really glad you're talking about this tbh, because this idea is very damaging. I'd rather be happy and make art. Also if you can't see happy art as "real", good art.. happiness is a beautiful emotion, if you can't make art out of that maybe you should try appreciating it a bit more.

Suffering isn’t the source of greatness, it’s the small moments of joy that peak out through the clouds that really make masterpieces.

as an illustrator, absolutely agree. when I feel like shit, mental health in the GUTTER, my art suffers. bc I don't make any. and that just makes me feel worse bc im an artist who isn't making art. when Im happy and feeling good I actually have the motivation to make work. I've made stuff that is based on trauma and it can be therapeutic, but to dwell on it and keep digging up those old wounds to make art? its not a good long term thing. the way u can burned out FAST. I've made pieces about my religious trauma, my anxiety, gender dysphoria, chronic migraines that effect me and helped me process these feelings. but to make this my personality and the only art I make... I don't think it will help w/ my mental health tbh. my best work have been when I make things when im feeling stable.

the tortured artist thing is genuinely dangerous. my schizophrenia influenced a lot of my artwork and when I got diagnosed, I was terrified of taking my medication because I thought it would kill my creativity. I tied so much of my self worth to my ability to create, and therefore my illness. I was literally the stereotype - manic writing, gripped by insomnia and painting until 4am, flinging paint at canvases during breakdowns, constantly nervously sketching, and I got endless compliments for my "dedication" and the work I produced. I was skin and bone and very sick and people praised it because of the tortured artist trope.

A couple years ago I was going through a really bad depressive episode. I knew I needed to try to get help and to try to recover, but I really only thought that the worth I'd be able to bring into the world would be by creating art about it. That accomplishing that one goal and being recognized for it would mean something. I thought getting better would mean I'd lose that drive. Now I am a whole lot better and I realize how much it means to know what you want to make, who you'll make it for, and that your purpose in life is to be more than just producing a product. Art can never have more value than the artist who creates it. And being able to experience love for others and yourself trumps making a tragic masterpiece any day.

I research classical music in my spare time. One of the main focuses of my research is the composer Dmitri Shostakovich, who, in classical music circles, has become pretty much equated with suffering. And it is true, much of his life was marked by it; he underwent two major denunciations by the Soviet government for his art, witnessed the Siege of Leningrad and Great Purges, lost many loved ones throughout his life, couldn't always express himself directly due to the restrictions on art, etc. His quartets, the late ones especially, are seen as being emblematic of the "tortured artist;" they are often bleak in tone and emotionally anguished, and as he struggled with mounting health issues and a fear of death towards the end of his life, this image of him as a constantly pessimistic, suffering artist is the one that has stuck in the popular consciousness (also thanks to Solomon Volkov's "Testimony," a dubiously credible book claiming to be Shostakovich's memoirs, but we don't have time to get into that.). However, what a lot of people overlook is how much joy and hope also exist in Shostakovich's works. He had a wicked sense of humour, and his brand of witty sarcasm shows up throughout his body of work, all the way to the end. And his deep compassion for other people and drive to create, no matter the circumstances, is impossible to ignore as well. Oftentimes, this exists among the expressions of suffering. It's why the Thirteenth Symphony, mourning the Babyn Yar massacre and the generational traumas existing in the Soviet Union, also has a blazing movement dedicated to the lasting power of humour in the face of authoritarianism. It's why the Fifteenth, his last symphony, is marked with both the looming threat of death and a gratitude for a lifetime of art. It's why the Seventh ends with a promise of victory despite a harrowing display of the horrors of war, and why my favourite work, the Second Piano Trio, laments the death of his best friend, but also displays a dazzling portrait of that friend's vivacity in life. There is a quote attributed to Shostakovich from one of his friends, Isaak Glikman, which I believe sums up much of his work quite well: "If they cut off both hands, I will write music anyway, holding the pen between my teeth."

As a person who's been wrangling with depression for their entire life, who writes and creates art and stories: It's not ideal to masticate one's self over their own work and having to keep convincing myself that what I'm doing is even worth it every day. Especially with funks, depressive episodes, and having to see my life and others into that lens when I'm in it. It constricts and boils everything into a malaise, never begging for any further meaning but that smell that stings all of my senses into further voids. My mental illness isn't a tool as Shanspeare refers to. It's an incessant darkness that pains me, to have me stop from everything I want to do.

This made me remember a post about naoko takeuchi which claimed that she was depressed and broke when she first started writing Sailor Moon. That was wrong. Takeuchi had released a number of successful short runs and had said that she based the relationships between the sailors on her friendships. Her work came out of love and appreciation for her own life, not pain and anguish and escapism which I feel is much more inspiring.