Wanted to add another fact. When the Chinese invented the compass in ancient times, the way it was set up is it actually pointed South (unlike when the West adapted it and their version pointed North). Thus, South was "front" and North was "back".
@ken5jk49 минут бұрын
I love your channel. I am ethnic Chinese and love etymologies. Unfortunately, I speak English better and English resources for Chinese etymologies are scarce, so am happy that I discovered your channel.
@zejalt86087 сағат бұрын
This channel has a bright future. I'd enjoy watching a video about those "chinese furigana", if you know what I mean. I've first seen those on this video.
@SwedishSinologyNerd5 сағат бұрын
Thank you! And they’re called zhuyin fuhao, or more commonly, bopomofo. They’re an older alternative to pinyin based on Chinese characters. Sadly they never really caught on outside of Taiwan, but they are in many ways superior to pinyin. I can for sure make a video on them in the future!
@rockethola35158 сағат бұрын
swedishsinologynerd more like freakysinologynerd
@SwedishSinologyNerd5 сағат бұрын
Plum in a Golden Vase is OBJECTIVELY a better novel than Dream of a Red Chamber
@xXMACEMANXx16 сағат бұрын
I'm absolutely using "brush-strokable" from now on. Excellent video as always!
@y11971alex22 сағат бұрын
@SwedishSinologyNerd Sure, thank you for responding. For the placement of the throne, I refer you to an edict issued by the Liang monarch: 天監六年詔曰:「頃代以來,元日朝畢,次會羣臣,則移就西壁下,東向坐。求之古義,王者讌萬國,唯應南面,何更居東面?」於是御坐南向,以西方為上。皇太子以下,在北壁坐者,悉西邊東向。尚書令以下在南方坐者,悉東邊西向。舊元日,御坐東向,酒壺在東壁下。御坐既南向,乃詔壺於南蘭下。 It says that after the officials (facing north, in the courtyard) greet the monarch (facing south, in the hall), they move into the hall for an audience. At this point the monarch moves to the west side wall and sits facing the east. But after the edict, the Liang monarch repositions the throne to face south instead, and identifies the west as the side of honour (位上). Thus we know that the throne used to be located on the west side of the hall and faced east, while the east side was occupied by a wine vessel. Even after the monarch repositioned the throne, the west side is still given to the crown prince, who obviously outranks the other subjects. I agree with the general idea that the east side is associated with hosts and the west, guests. But there is one notable & attested exception as cited above: in the royal court the monarch sits on the west side instead of the east. Surely the monarch must be the "host" in his own court, but that the subjects/officials, contrary to cultural norms, take the host's side needs to be explained with a reasonable motivation. It seems to me at least that this motivation can only come from an avoidance of occupying the place of honour, which is instead surrendered to the monarch despite his host-like position. It is asserted the idea that the Chinese often arrange things like clothes for the dead in ways that are opposite to the living, but I would suggest that sometimes these records more resemble philosophical musings than actual practice, in which the living and the dead are often conceived of as a continuum (such as in funerary practice where the newly deceased spends months, if not years, transitioning into the role of a spirit). Given very extensive religious practice that seeks to connect the living with the dead, particularly before the Chin period, I would personally characterize the ancient relationship between the familial living and dead as one more of respect than aversion. Relating to the auspiciousness of the west as a cardinal direction, 歸西 must refer to a Buddhist idea that the dead go to India, which is to the west of China, as the land of the Buddha. To say someone has "returned to the west" is to suggest they have an auspicious death. Death is not always inauspicious in Chinese culture, as we see in multiple bronze inscriptions a prayers for 霝冬 "a good death". Since we're talking about the etymology of Chinese characters, I think it would be fair if we placed more emphasis on cultural notions dating from the etymological period.
@christophertito811823 сағат бұрын
Yes papa, feed me more etymology juices
@madisonarnett4194Күн бұрын
I know very little about chinese or etymology as a whole but this video is very well made! i find it interesting how both the characters for east and west have a "basket" character related to them. Maybe related to how the Sun rises and sets? It has to go somewhere, maybe they thought it went into some kind of container
@y11971alexКүн бұрын
The direction of the most important person in Chinese culture is the west. The royal throne is situated at the west side of the hall (西壁下), not the east. The deceased lies in repose at the west (賓階). The west side is associated with the guest and is the place of honour. 😮
@SwedishSinologyNerdКүн бұрын
Thanks for your comment! I suppose it depends on who you consider the most important in a social setting, but judging by ancient Chinese texts, I'd say the host (東) usually outranks the guest (西). I do not consider the placement of the dead to be a valid argument since Chinese often arrange the dead in opposition to the living (burial clothes are often tied in the "opposite" way for example). You could even make an argument that the west is an outright inauspicious direction, since one euphemism for death in Chinese is 歸西 or "return to the west", ie the supposed divine realm in the western mountains inhabited by The Empress dowager of the West, as well as it's connection with disease-causing winds. I'd like a source for the throne placement, since the throne's I've seen usually place the throne in the centre of the hall, the hall usually being alligned with the front to the south and back to the north.
@y11971alexКүн бұрын
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Sure, thank you for responding. For the placement of the throne, I refer you to an edict issued by the Liang monarch: 天監六年詔曰:「頃代以來,元日朝畢,次會羣臣,則移就西壁下,東向坐。求之古義,王者讌萬國,唯應南面,何更居東面?」於是御坐南向,以西方為上。皇太子以下,在北壁坐者,悉西邊東向。尚書令以下在南方坐者,悉東邊西向。舊元日,御坐東向,酒壺在東壁下。御坐既南向,乃詔壺於南蘭下。 It says that after the officials (facing north, in the courtyard) greet the monarch (facing south, in the hall), they move into the hall for an audience. At this point the monarch moves to the west side wall and sits facing the east. But after the edict, the Liang monarch repositions the throne to face south instead, and identifies the west as the side of honour (位上). Thus we know that the throne used to be located on the west side of the hall and faced east, while the east side was occupied by a wine vessel. Even after the monarch repositioned the throne, the west side is still given to the crown prince, who obviously outranks the other subjects. I agree with the general idea that the east side is associated with hosts and the west, guests. But there is one notable & attested exception as cited above: in the royal court the monarch sits on the west side instead of the east. Surely the monarch must be the "host" in his own court, but that the subjects/officials, contrary to cultural norms, take the host's side needs to be explained with a reasonable motivation. It seems to me at least that this motivation can only come from an avoidance of occupying the place of honour, which is instead surrendered to the monarch despite his host-like position. It is asserted the idea that the Chinese often arrange things like clothes for the dead in ways that are opposite to the living, but I would suggest that sometimes these records more resemble philosophical musings than actual practice, in which the living and the dead are often conceived of as a continuum (such as in funerary practice where the newly deceased spends months, if not years, transitioning into the role of a spirit). Given very extensive religious practice that seeks to connect the living with the dead, particularly before the Chin period, I would personally characterize the ancient relationship between the familial living and dead as one more of respect than aversion. Relating to the auspiciousness of the west as a cardinal direction, 歸西 must refer to a Buddhist idea that the dead go to India, which is to the west of China, as the land of the Buddha. To say someone has "returned to the west" is to suggest they have an auspicious death. Death is not always inauspicious in Chinese culture, as we see in multiple bronze inscriptions a prayers for 霝冬 "a good death". Since we're talking about the etymology of Chinese characters, I think it would be fair if we placed more emphasis on cultural notions dating from the etymological period.
@y11971alexКүн бұрын
I made a response here. Did KZfaq eat it?
@SwedishSinologyNerdКүн бұрын
@@y11971alex possibly, I didn’t see it
@y11971alexКүн бұрын
@@SwedishSinologyNerd OK let me get home and repost it.
@dhu20562 күн бұрын
My favorite bag character gotta be 囊 though
@paiwanhan2 күн бұрын
I think Baxter and Sagart's /pˤək/ is a much more plausible OC pronunciation for 北. The word and words derived from 北 all have final consonant stops in modern Sinitic languages that preserve more MC phonology, and 北 itself is most likely pok in MC. It would make little sense for it to start without entering tone and get a final consonant stop for no reason at all.
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
Ah, I knew I'd forgotten something! Yeah so obv. there was a final stop in OC, I only gave the PST root form "to carry on the back" and neglected to give the OC forms dervide from it. That's my b. Then again, it gives me material to do one of them correction vids down the line, so if you spot any other mistakes drop me a line! =)
@rolandalcid71272 күн бұрын
Swedish Sinology Nerd. lt's very interesting to see your interpretation on ancient Chinese characters. Good Work.
@ChristianJiang2 күн бұрын
Wooooo so excited to see another video!! 8:17 The pictographic quality of older 汉字 never ceases to amaze me. How is què rendered in modern characters? 14:06 You drew this? It’s so cute 😭 Thanks for all the effort you’re putting in your vids! 17:57 Yoooo what did I do to deserve that mention 🥹🥹🥹🥹 It made my day! 中 is such an interesting character. Before you mentioned the drums, I was sure that it represented a line going through the *middle* of a square-a very abstract and simple representation for this concept… It seemed like such a straightforward explanation! I remember seeing the Oracle Bone Script versions and being confused. Some of the Chu variants are so unlike 中 that I’m surprised they were deciphered correctly. Like the ones with 人 on top! Looks like something completely different. Super interesting to see how 中 is related to one’s bellybutton-that’s what the Ancient Greeks said about Greece too! More precisely, they thought that Delphi was the navel of the Earth (omphalos). And, similarly, the Chinese also use 中 to refer to their own country! Waiting for more vids, if you’re still planning on making them! In the meantime, I’ve been reading about the Nuosu script and Dongba characters…
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
Glad you liked the video! Unfortunately it'll likely be the last (long) one for a while at least since I'm moving house and starting a new job next week, I'll get back to videomaking once I'm settled in. And hey, I liked the expression "brushstrokable" and just wanted to give credit ^^ I think a lot of ancient people equated the navel with middleness, though the meaning don't seem to have survived in Chinese outside of compounds. Also, nitpick: the 人 character on top in the Chu script is the "flag radical" I talk about in the vid, or rather the right half of it (looks like [方人] in standardized script).
@ChristianJiang2 күн бұрын
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Ohh I get it, it’s like 㫃 or, more precisely, half of it! Oh well haha in this case my 人 is more like a way to visually represent it 😅 No worries about not being able to make videos for the time being. Focus on the other stuff first, and I’ll be happy to see you in the comment sections of your new video again! Not many people make in-depth content on Chinese characters as you do here on KZfaq, so we’ll all be super happy whenever you decide to upload again! But, as I said, focus on your priorities first. PS: Just found out that 㫃 becomes 𭤨 when used as a component and, according to Wiktionary, the latter is used in HK for 於 as well, which is thus reanalysed as ⿸𭤨⺀ instead of ⿰方仒. P-PS: Your part about how folk etymologies influence character shapes is super interesting… Basically the 日 between 木 almost became true in some of the Chu manuscripts! I wonder how many 汉字 have changed shape due to popular myths about their origins…
@_xwhitec49612 күн бұрын
Fun fact: 仲 is also used in Cantonese to mean 'still' and 'even more', as in '你仲塞緊車啊?' ('You're still stuck in traffic?') and '佢仲高啲添' ('They're even taller')! This has no relation to the original eymology though as the character is only borrowed for this usage because of its pronunciation
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
I was originally planning to include that bit, but I couldn't find a good explanation where the word came from so to avoid confusion I left it out ^^;;;
@y11971alexКүн бұрын
重
@Akaykimuy2 күн бұрын
I've never once questioned why 敗北 is written with 北, and I have no idea why I didn't ever think it was weird. But now I don't have to, thanks Also I didn't that 仲 had a unique usage in Japanese that is not found in Chinese. In Japanese 仲 (read 'naka', same as 中) refers to relationships between people
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
Ah, that sounds like a Japanese kokkun, it's really cool how the JKV languages to varying extents look at Chinese characters and go "Yeah, we know it means that but it LOOKS like it should mean THIS so we gon' use it for this!" And questioning how and why languages do what they do is just how my brainaddled mind works. It refuses to accept any new info unless it gets access to the Deepest Lore about it xD
@CXu-hd5nb2 күн бұрын
I only knew of Bernhard Karlgren, but there are actually more Swedish sinologists; Cecilia Lindqvist and YOU💪💪💪💪🙏
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
Oh there're a LOT of Swedes with an unhealthy obsession with China, a couple of other greats are Göran Malmqvist and my old teacher Michael Schoenhals. I'm but a midget standing on the shoulder of giants ^^
@happiman94842 күн бұрын
Birdieeeeeee :D (my brain trying to pay attention while you explain west)
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
Oh dear, well whatever keeps my viwers' dopamine flowing I guess! xD
@rawcopper6042 күн бұрын
10:20 sounds like you pronounced the 形 in 象形 as 4th tone. It's meant to be 2nd right?
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
Ooops! You're absolutely right, well there's always something that flies under the radar ^^
@rawcopper6042 күн бұрын
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Regardless, thanks for the video. It was fascinating to watch.
@martinfalkjohansson52042 күн бұрын
Det hade varit väldigt kul om du som svensk sinolognörd gjorde en video om Karlgren, kan inte tänka mig att han inte är väldigt bekant ;). Ändå lite kul att en svensk gjort ett sådant enormt bidrag till kinesisk språkforskning :)
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
Jag hade tänkt göra en video på ämnet ”varför så många svenskar är förtjusta i Kina” men det ligger långt i framtiden xD
@spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace2 күн бұрын
next we need numbers
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
Numbers will come sometime in the future! It'll be a bigass video tho lol
@y11971alexКүн бұрын
二 次
@johanngaiusisinwingazuluah21162 күн бұрын
I thought you were about to imply that the Chinese word for East has an Indo-European cognate
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
I will only imply stuff if I find evidence to support it! So you might hear those words in the videos on 車 and 蜜!
@johanngaiusisinwingazuluah21162 күн бұрын
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Holy shit we're getting into deep Wanderwort lore, I was NOT expecting that
@johanngaiusisinwingazuluah21162 күн бұрын
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Btw, does that mean you're not a proponent of the theory that the Chinese word for "horse" is from Indo-European? There are holes in it but I don't see any other plausible theory
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
@@johanngaiusisinwingazuluah2116 It very well could be, but afaik, the word entered PST via some central asian language like Mongolic or Turkic, of course it's possible that THOSE languages got it from PIE but I haven't found any evidence for a direct PIE link with the Chinese word (at this time).
@equilibrum9992 күн бұрын
how would 'horse' or 'koń' be similiar to ma/马?
@lyuktentiok2 күн бұрын
Fin fact 中 is a part of ny courtesy name 仁中(◡ ω ◡)
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
Oh, neat! 賤字”武成“. Any story behind your courtesy name?
@lyuktentiok2 күн бұрын
@@SwedishSinologyNerd a friend of mine gave it he chose it from the Analects, meaning "virtue within"
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
@@lyuktentiok That's good! Very traditional. Mine is pretty much a semantic-similarity one based off my regular Chinese name
@St.Sogofhedgehogs2 күн бұрын
i have to sneak my phone upstairs and watch it in bed secretly to see this live
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
We salute your dedication to learning good sir! o7
@justaregularslitherwing3 күн бұрын
Oh boy!!! Can't wait to see you dive into this one! 中 it's probably one of my favorite character etymologies since it's just pretty cool to see 中 originally depicting some kind of wind instrument or flag.
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
I hope you liked the vid, even though the explanation for 中 was a bit different ^^
@justaregularslitherwing2 күн бұрын
@@SwedishSinologyNerd No no it's fine!! I actually quite agree with the explanation presented, even though commonly speaking I'm agreeing with the one where it depicts a type of military flag with some sort of gong in the middle. So I guess the explanation I'm going with is not too far off on what you explained ^^
@menganlei93783 күн бұрын
巽方、坤方、乾方、乾方
@equilibrum9993 күн бұрын
and also 2[maybe 3?] vertical directions: 上、下 [中?]
@SwedishSinologyNerd3 күн бұрын
That'll have to be a sequel: 上下、内外、左右、前後
@ChristianJiang2 күн бұрын
@@SwedishSinologyNerd上中下、前中后、东南西北中、左中右…… The common thread here is 中: it sits in the middle of *everything*. You can adopt any directional framework and even weave in infinite multidimensional matrices… 中 will always remain. And then we have 中国… 🚩😎
@SwedishSinologyNerd2 күн бұрын
@@ChristianJiang Actually 🤓 the term 中國 as an autonym for China is a relatively new concept, and actually a piece of Qing era Manchu propaganda ("All the central territories are one family, and the Emperor is the father") to try and legitamize their rule. It had limited success but the name stuck, probably for lack of an alternative, since all other dynasties usually referred to China as "Great [insert dynasty here]".
@ChristianJiang2 күн бұрын
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Haha I was trying to be sarcastic but it didn’t work as well in writing. But I learnt something new! I knew 中国 is a recent term, but not that recent! Yet it was unanimously adopted by Japan, Korea and Vietnam as their go-to way to refer to China... Interesting… Does that mean that Japan’s Chūgoku region’s use of 中国 predates that of China itself?!! Mind blown 🤯
@vincentxiao18368 күн бұрын
That explains why it's Dang in Shanghainese and other Wu Chinese languages!!!
@SwedishSinologyNerd8 күн бұрын
I didn't know it was pronounced dang in Shanghainese! Thank you ^^
@dariusgoh53149 күн бұрын
Hey, could u do a video on the etymology of 乐 and why it had 2 pronunciations?
@SwedishSinologyNerd9 күн бұрын
I'll add it to the list!
@equilibrum99910 күн бұрын
i am confused thoroughtly as to why these three: 旮、旯、旭,have readings of ga, la, xu, despite them being only a union of 日 and 九?
@SwedishSinologyNerd10 күн бұрын
旭 xu1 is an ancient character, composed of "sun" semantic plus "nine" (jiu3) phonetic (though even in OC the phonetic is kinda wonky 九 is reconstructed as *ku' and 旭 is reconstructed as *qhwog. Like, you gotta say it a few times to even sorta get it). Meanwhile, 旮 and 旯 are only used in the word 旮旯 which is unattested in OC and MC lit. so probably a recent dialectal word, derived from or related to 角落, 角 used to have a g- or k- initial (*krog or *grog) so that's probaby where the reading "ga1" comes from, and "la2" is pretty close to luo4. No idea why the characters look like that tho. Vibes?
@OfficialSoonot12 күн бұрын
lobe bideo
@happiman948412 күн бұрын
Actually entomology?! You're a madman.
@debilista12 күн бұрын
YAY cool video as usual, i can stare hours at them everyone learns english but almost everyone underestimates importance of chinese or at the very least the script if we assume that the world was just the west and the east as the most important regions then a westerner should have an idea about the east, and an oriental about the west since these are the two only truly well documented regions in terms of history and culture and because a critical informed view never harmed anyone but the ignorant masses english isnt my first language, neither is chinese but learning about both west and east is cool such a cool channel
@KogetsuKuzunoha13 күн бұрын
Where am I????
@SwedishSinologyNerd13 күн бұрын
Language/sinology side of YT, I admit it gets pretty weird in these parts. But we got tea and obscure jokes so won't you stay a while and listen? =P
@equilibrum99910 күн бұрын
你好在中国方的世界。
@ChristianJiang14 күн бұрын
Honestly, ⿱艹犬 should’ve been brought back, it would’ve made more sense next to 哭 too, as they’d share the same bottom component! PS: 哭 always looked like a sad, teary face to me lol. P-PS: When I was little, it was explained to me that 夭 in 笑 meant “stillborn baby”… I must’ve been 7, and I remember thinking “Yoo the ancient chinese were kinda sadistic…”
@SwedishSinologyNerd13 күн бұрын
I mean.... *gestures vaguely to all the messed up shit that happened in ancient China* Li'l Jiang was spitting facts tho.
@ChristianJiang14 күн бұрын
In my handwriting I don’t even bother writing 12 lol, I just do a つ and close the gap, creating a somewhat triangular 口…
@ChristianJiang14 күн бұрын
It’s interesting to see how early on in the history of Chinese were the semantic components that make up the characters streamlined into unrecognisable forms… I know for instance that 棄 has a child, 子, being literally thrown out of a basket. The top component is 子, upside down, which can be written in 篆字 but cannot exist as a possible shape in modern-style 汉字. That’s why it looks like that - a meaningless component that isn’t attested in other characters. This phenomenon has a name, but I forgot what it’s called - perhaps you know? It’s basically how newer forms obfuscate the pictographic quality of the older ones…
@SwedishSinologyNerd13 күн бұрын
I wasn't aware the phenomenon had a name but I'm not surprised if it does, sadly I am, as I said, unaware of it ^^;; What I AM aware of, is several other characters that were pretty much streamlined into obfuscation, so more of those coming down the line!
@ChristianJiang13 күн бұрын
@@SwedishSinologyNerd I think it’s just called lìbiàn, 隶变… Whereby semantic clarity is sacrificed for the sake of ease of writing. I believe it happened during the gradual transition between 篆字 and 隶书… Weren’t the earliest forms of 隶书 actually a cursive, handwritten version of 篆字, which was relegated to formal contexts? (I’m probably oversimplifying it here…) So when 篆字 stopped being used, their semantic depth was also forever replaced with the more “brushstrokable” (albeit unrecognisable) forms of later styles. For example, 射 was initially super pictographic-a bow and arrow pointing left and a hand holding it… This otherwise unattested 🏹 shape was then replaced with 身 in the newer, more stylistically “regulated” way of writing. And, by the way, I’m a huge fan of 隶定, which takes old 篆字 and 甲骨文 and converts their components into modern-day styles (楷书 as well as typefaces like 明体)… Wikipedia uses the example of 春 (the product of 隶变), which is rendered in lìdìng as 萅. One of my favourite pastimes is to look at 甲骨文 inscriptions and see the archaic characters being rendered into modern-day kǎitǐ fonts… Some of them look super complex!!
@ChristianJiang14 күн бұрын
(just saw a comment linking Chinese to Turkish, hopefully it’s just a “spot the similarity” thing and not a reflection of some deeper pan-Turkic fantasy lol… Nothing that can’t be dispelled with some recent OC reconstructions: *kʰɯds and *qʰɯds according to 郑张)
@SwedishSinologyNerd13 күн бұрын
I don't think Turkic is very strongly , or at all, represented in Chinese vocabulary. The Chinese were pretty snobbish from the Qin unification onward so loanwords were rather limited, though before that there seem to have been a lot of cross-influence with AustroAsiatic. From the Han onward it's mostly Sanskrit, with a bit of Mongolian and Manchu that makes it into the vocabulary.
@ChristianJiang13 күн бұрын
@@SwedishSinologyNerd Hahaha I wasn’t entertaining the idea of loanwords at all! Just poking some fun at internet pan-Turkic fans who link everything to Turkish, the mother of all languages in the world!