thats chad a move right there

If you’re curious as to why, Ono said they wanted to recreate the feel of stuff like the cyclops comeback (not actually what he said I’m using it as an example) where a character was so clearly amazing that hype comebacks and victories with clearly worse characters fighting these overpowered characters was inherently an exciting part of fighting games and made the game have a more attractive feel competitively. The problem is yun actually doesn’t have the amazing reputation he jokes about with his hat victory line; he’s mediocre in his first two appearances and outright bad in cvs2. He’s so infamously good in 3s because he just happens to have really exploitable tools that lead to incredible reward and exploits a very common weakness amongst the cast ( being a reliance on meter to effectively make big plays) which is generally how most top tiers actually are top tier. It’s not just they have the best tools, it’s they just happen to be able to exploit very common weaknesses while not being that susceptible to them. It’s why thanos can have an infinite in mvc2 and still be bottom tier because he doesn’t exploit any real weaknesses with his kit despite theoretically having the best option in the game. Yun not only was overtuned to try and capture that idea, he also incidentally was better than even the devs intended. This just made a grossly designed character who was so good even daigo played him. Daigo only played ken in 3s because he was like ryu but a lot better, so the fact he traded evil ryu, one of his favorite characters to play who was incredible in 4 for yun really says how capcom really misunderstood how to balance an intentionally strong character.

Just realized baf said this at the end but most of the logic as to why this isn’t a good idea is still my own take so I’m just gonna leave this as is.

@@Neogears1312 he didn’t drop e ryu for yun, he dropped ryu. Edit: not only that, but he dropped yun for e ryu

>Profit ?

this was unironically their thought process.

@@Bafael This is why Akuma needs to be ban worthy tier in SFV Season 5.9

Thank god they didn’t put him in SFV

@@Bafael Wasn’t it supposed to create a sense of community by people hating him? It’s something hilariously stupid like that

@@NeoBoneGirl to be frank I think that probably works but it's almost impossible to do well. I think it's kind of fun to have a public enemy character in a fighting game but the character needs to not break the game.

Wait so _that's_ where Divekick comes from? Holy shit

Wait really ?!

@@yourself1210 Though the game had parodies of Yun and Yang, it was more a poke at divekicks as a whole. Even though only a handful of characters had them, they were a prominent part of Capcom fighters during the early 2010's

@@brunop.8745 the main characters are twins who spam divekicks it's AE distilled

@@Fooacta fo-FOOT dive!

haha dp trade ultra go brrrr

@@8Kazuja8 All I know is that at launch SFIV, DP's that are used to anti-air jumpers would often trade, but the opponent will be left airborne, meaning you get an Ultra followup from anti-airs. For reasons such as this, Ryu was really good at the start. I think the difference with Sagat is that his damage from Ultra followup was insane, you would get like 70% from punishing a jump.

@@8Kazuja8 from what I know it was mostly because his damage was simply ridiculous. Not even his buttons really just the obscene damage you could get off of anythimg

His DP trade was 180, f heavy kick was another 120 damage, and a full Ultra was an extra 400 damage or so. Basically, don’t jump at vanilla Sagat.

Sagat was strong but I don't remember half the pro players using him like they all did when Yun debuted.

He wasn't wrong.

Why would you talk to a Gamestop employee?

@@CoralCopperHead Because he leaves the house

@@CoralCopperHead hey some of them are pretty cool and actually know their stuff, corporate just makes them repeat the same thing over and over again. I remember this one time they were holding a mini tournament in one of the shops and the guy behind the counter put up a good fight, managed to beat around 10 guys before he got knocked out.

​@@nightwolf9375was this like a fighting game tournament or like a real life bar brawl?

Same energy as Kazunoko's 'Sol has trouble getting in' when the Strive beta ended.

what he actually said is that yun players FELT they had trouble getting in, which is imo even funnier.

@@aotohime9481 The 1st Strive beta? At least with that excuse, we had Potemkin who was #1. (FYI I main Sol and I think he could use some small nerfs and an overall cast buff.)

Irony in that Kazunoko was also a Yun main. I don't know if he took the same stance as Combofiend back in the AE/2012 days, but it's fair to say he's always been 'that' kind of player. His background also includes an extensive history of playing Order Sol in GG's AC and +R versions, a character with a similar gameplan/style of needing to be up close to be effective... Notably unlike AE Yun or Strive Sol however, Order Sol actually does have a variety of matchups where he genuinely struggles to close distance without taking big risks. There's actually a really good example of this amongst older footage of him, in Grand finals at SBO 2010 which can be found here: /watch?v=WJM2fq7DUvo (He's listed in this video as Inoue, since back then he entered events using his real name instead of a tag)

@@leithaziz2716 Not the first beta. The last one iirc. People were posting their impressions. And Kazunoko did a long post about it.

A sequel of X Tekken here they learn from their mistakes on the first could be goated

*"For his neutral special, he weilds a gun."*

Gyun

Actual color meta

@@b-d9099 like the green falcon skin

@@demiurge2501 that's the one other example I heard of

@@b-d9099 some alts in mk9 changed hit box sizes

Yourself !! Some alts in mk9 changed framedata too. Cyrax and Sektor.

Not sure if he mentions it in the video, but this doesn’t work on everyone in the cast. Also, it’s not plus on everyone in the cast. For example, balrog, I believe has a wider hitbox, which causes yun to hit the ground later.

Lmao

Smh

me too, I was so bad in SF4, that I knew Yun was good, but he wasn't even my best character. (Adon was)

vader mains in a nutshell (BF2)

Must be a horrible epiphany

im glad you realized. so many players are carried by characters in so many new age fighting games today lol

Who cares lmao

@@Archedgar - I do. lmao

@@Archedgar You do. You commented here.

@@Archedgar I've seen you on like 10 of these videos now, so I'd say you care.

@@Archedgar Who cares lmao

He played Akuma in alpha 3 and Ken in 3S.

Boxer in sf2

He's also a nasty guile

@@SpitefulAZ tbf he almost always played ken and akuma from the start in those games. With yun he dropped a character he had incredible success with loved to play because yun was that unthought out.

SF2: Guile, Ryu, Boxer SF alpha 3: akuma sf3 3s: ken SF4 : ryu , yun, evil ryu sf5: guile he has alot of sf4 ryu highlight that made people think he is a Ryu loyalist

wtf I literally said amongus

amogus

You jump on sagat Dp hits clean, sagat does hk to ultra you ate 600+ dmg You jump on sagat Dp trades, sagat does hk to ultra anyway, you hate 600 + dmg Sagat walks in, decides that he feels like doing a random DP, fadc to ultra, you ate 600+ dmg Sagat jumps in, 3 hits combo to ultra ~ 680 dmg Basically he did more than half you health bar on anything, wether it was a trade or a clean hit. He also has high health, is supposed to be a a great zonner so has the tool to keep you out if he feels like it, and the game lacked maaany of the defensive option added later

AE Yun had better tools than Vanilla Sagat, but Sagat had two things going for him: 1. An insanely warped risk reward when fighting against him. Remember dp fadc's were plus on block back then, and his led to nearly 700 damage with a full ultra meter. Dps did a lot more damage back then in general (one of my favorite pieces of trivia is that vanilla Ken's ex dp did 250 by itself) 2. Much stronger zoning game because a lot of characters didn't get purely anti fireball tools until Super where they got access to their Ultra 2's. And most of the characters that nearly fully negate midscreen zoning didn't come until later. There were other frame data differences and things like 2hit s.lk, but those 2 above are the main things. I think overall, AE Yun is better than Sagat if they were just dropped in any version, but Vanilla Sagat's explosiveness really can't be overstated.

Mostly, it’s that everyone else was really bad in Vanilla compared to later

I think it's possible, devs usually save previous builds (hell, you can play those versions via trials) but that requires Edition select, something I don't think Capcom will bother with now that the game is almost done (also, characters changed within patches, and I think Capcom wants to avoid another AE/AE2012 scenario, especially with how they destroyed Zangief)

@@nebiyuesayas5600 not too savvy on SF history. What was up with SFIV AE 2012?

@@lunadachi4792 not entirely sure, but I hear AE2012 nerfed some characters for no reason or something, idk

@@lunadachi4792 basically this video. It solely exists to tune down yun and Yang. While also propping up oni who compared to the other new AE characters being in top 10/higher oni was kinda just ok with noticeable flaws holding him back from being good despite having an air dash.

Thank you for reminding me why I look for mods and fan games for smash bros.

Yun is my secondary and I think that might be yun best matchups (at least one of them). It was at least 7-3. At least makoto was crazy when she was going, which made this matchup not 10-0

@@burkshomemadememes Contesting Divekick was just a nightmare, everything else about the matchup didn't feel too bad, but that one thing was such a big deal.

@@Nooctae all I ever did in that matchup was short dive kick into short dive kick into another short dive kick. And makoto not having a lot of health also gave yun an easier time to kill her. But once makoto starts to land her combos and mixups, yun is as good as dead. On paper it might be 7-3, but whoever gets to start their game plan first can win the match really quick

I stuck with Makoto during SF4...Kinda wished i'd picked an easier character as I was using pad. Dashing in was tough.

I can absolutely see how the yun-makoto matchup would be absolutely miserable for Makoto... but I can't think of that Matchup without remembering a match Haitani played (I can't give any specifics, it's been *years* since I saw the video). The sheer hubris of this yun player to think he could neutral jump at full screen, only for Haitani to *triple forward dash and catch him before he hit the ground*.

Backdash in general is a lot stronger in SF4 than GG cuz of the archaic juggle point system that made converting an air hit into anything basically impossible unless the devs tailor made it to do that, meanwhile most of the GG cast gets something if you’re airborne, even if you’re Xrd Zato and don’t get much damage or a KD

@@NeoBoneGirl but GG also has some outliers like Zappa or Potemkin (pre strive) who had crazy amounts of invuln on their backdashes. Zappa's was 11 frames with 10 frames of invuln, meanwhile pot's was 21f with 20f of invuln, and a good back dash read led to a pot buster, which led to pot's Oki.

@@arcfieri5965 They have outliers yes, but catching them is still way easier and you get better reward on it, too. The worst reward you get in GG is a 2D, while landing sweep in SF4 on a backdash is one of the best punishes you can get

@@NeoBoneGirl oh yeah, totally. But GG also has some absolutely disgusting backdashes too is all I wanted to say

@@NeoBoneGirl i think it would be safe to say that Slayer's backdash beats any SF4 backdash though,the things that you can do with BDC are actually insane.

Agreed, tho I would mention that the bottom-right gets obscured up by the timestamp so maybe the image should have been flipped to put the text safely off to the left. Still really good!

At the very least, the other characters seem to think he is. A recurring winquote of his has Yun replying to the enemy fighter supposedly calling him cheap, and he's always brushing it off. "Cheap? I paid a lot for this cap!"

He’s canonically fought Gill in a real fight unlike ibuki or urien (though this is with Yang) and the two are effectively the guardians of Hong Kong, with Yang feeling vastly weaker than his brother. When it comes to characters introduced In sf3 he’s probably just out of the top 3 of Gill then Alex then Oro.

@@Neogears1312 Why does Capcom keep treating Alex like he's a badass monster when he's always low or mid tier? He's canonically supposed to be stronger. It's weird. Do they just not know what to do with his moveset?

@@chomskyhonk2366 I don't know but it's hard to balance grappler because their win condition can feel super oppressive/unfair to beginers if you don't tone down everything else, but that makes them weak in neutral against everyone that figures out the concept of gameplan.... Alex was supposed to be the new flagship/mascot of the serie so he still has a pretty important part lore wise

@@Cardboxx It's just odd. Wouldn't be difficult to make him at least as good as Zangief. You'd think they'd consider him a good intro to the grappler playstyle, but Hugo is way better and can get insane damage if you know what you're doing. He's objectively better. To contrast, Alex has maybe two good combos in 3rd Strike. You absolutely cannot do even mid level play with him. It's like they made him wrong as a joke. Maybe they wanted you to feel like an underdog?

Yun actually is fairly split when it comes to that. He wasn’t particularly good until 3s, NG is pretty lacking in knowledge but it’s fairly agreed that ibuki Sean and ryu were the best characters in the game. While in second impact he’s just a mid tier. Hilariously Yang was the oppressive high tier in second impact. Yun is just the kinda character that needs one change or a certain alignment of events to be insanely op.

@@Neogears1312 on some old forum threads I actually saw NG twins referred to as top tier by a lot of people, but I can't find any info on why that is and in 2i he recently got the infinite genei jin glitch... I'm not sure if that alone carries him though

CvS games are terrible though so there's not much to ruin.

@@Archedgar I'm sorry you have rather poor taste

It's especially ironic since the most dominant Groove in that game ended up being A-Groove. Yet despite Yun's stupidly overpowered Gen'ei Jin already basically the exact same as the stupidly overpowered custom combo system in games that otherwise lack it, _CvS2_ Yun couldn't abuse A-Groove nearly as well as like half of the cast. Funny how that works out.

Naw dude, Yun broke otherwise accepted rules like how he could safely chase backdashes while having the safest backdash in the game, being able to get basically max damage on half the meter of the rest of the cast and having a full damage command grab with none of the downsides of a grappler. The list goes on but the idea is that for every aspect of the game that could be exploited, he could exploit his opponents while not being able to be exploited himself.

Leeroy was pretty status quo with 7’s power creep to the point people still argued if akuma was better do to his absurd neutral and the best damage off of a low. Yun in AE is like dropping NG ibuki into the game. They completely overshadowed direct competition for their playstyle. Leeroy had the benefit of needing to learn an entire match up for him vs him already having 1-2 decades of knowledge on your legacy character. Yun even in the different engine with new mechanics didn’t have that advantage because he’s the second most important match up to learn in 3s and all of his moves are fairly faithful to that game. Despite that he still completely dominated the scene.

@@Neogears1312 I never saw anybody argue that Akuma was better than Leroy when the latter got released, and this claim seems dubious. Akuma hadn't shown many successes at the time, and, for a while, the tournaments were dominated by Leroy. Leroy had best or close to the best-in-class moves in almost every important category (barring EWGF and throws), and had some of the best of his own (like an i12 safe mid CH launcher (only -5 on block); compare this to what, IIRC, was the best one at the time: Steve's d/f+2->DCK cancel which was i16 and -7 on block with perfect execution, and has since been nerfed).

@@thetaomegatheta I saw a couple. The thing was mainly Akuma got more off a low which said a lot condescending vanilla leeroy, his X factor didn’t go away like leeroy’s cane, and most importantly the fact tekken just does t have reliable anti airs because of how it plays so Akuma can basically exploit most of the cast with approach tools only geese has as well.

Same. I know a lot about every other version of Yang, especially second impact Yang but I’m actually pretty blind on AESF4 Yang.

This. Yun is cool, but I actually prefer Yang for the most part (although I will admit, I kinda like how NG Yang had Dash Punch)

Yang wasn't broken like Yun so I wouldn't expect to see him in Bad Balance. He was harder to play too.

Yang was broken in AE specifically. He was nerfed into the ground in AE2012, which is why you may not have heard the stories of his AE dominance.

Yun actually only been top tier twice. He’s been ok in 1 game, mediocre in 2, and literally awful in 1 game, he’s actually bottom tier in cvs2.

@@Neogears1312 interesting. Never played any of those so that's cool to know

@@masontem7526 yeah it’s funny he has his line about being cheap, because he’s completely forgettable on a roster if he’s not op. It’s so weird having that jab at the fans on him. It’s like if vega commented on how bs he was in sf2 and cvs2 despite being awful for over a decade now.

In my opinion super was the most balanced one yes guile and Ryu were top but isn't that the way it's supposed to be in Street Fighter? They were at least 15 different characters played at a very high level. And after super they kind of neutered Ryu.

Bromg this is so what irritates me about the twins.

@@stolensentience😂😂😂

I wish they never touched the game after super

I remember when ae came out: everyone wanted a new version ASAP. I feel like ae was there just to get extra money from ultra later. I'm with you that ultra would've been better had AE either not happened or had not been a "my character is as smart as Batman, rich as Superman, with the heroic spirit of cap America, with the charm of Fabio, and his dad is one of the top politicians in the world" edition

It all becomes clear that Ono was full of dumb ideas that happened to work occasionally worked when you realized he was only in fighting game development because they just forced him to fix capcom fighting evolution.

Yun was amusingly enough one of the worst characters in CvS2, like bottom 3 bad.

@@JinTabasa Well dang. I heard Maki was pretty mediocre in CvS 2, and I wouldn't be surprised if that also applied to Eagle (meaning all of the representatives from the less popular Capcom games were bad)

Sean was good in second impact. Like top 3.

@@waynesmith7746 I know, Ibuki was also the best in 2I and NG (she had Hashinsho, which was basically 3S Hoyokusen but it gave Ibuki and infinite afterwards).

Yun is actually fairly 50/50. He was terrible in cvs2 (and no one cared) and fairly meh until 3s put him on the map. In 2I Yang was the oppressive twin while yun was....there.

Both dumb characters. So is Abel for that matter, albeit far more respectable.

Maybe injustice or something but I can only talk about what I know about

@@Bafael ok that makes

Event hubs isn't the best place to look for info. AE was a really bad patch though, while Ultra did fix some stuff, it wasn't enough. Super is a fan favorite for SF 4

Tldr Ultra Yun has a bit less damage and slightly worse frame data

Ultra yun was/is still considered top 3

Everyone's dashes had a different duration, so some characters would be faster and some slower. Unless you mean they could cancel into a special move 1f before the dash ends or something crazy like that?

@@MystyrNile They could cancel their backdashes specifically into special moves after a certain point. Yang had a bigger window at 4f (iirc) which was nerfed to somewhere along 2f in Ultra.

all grapplers. I wonder why he was weak against them.

I remember the match and IIRC daigo said filipino champ's dhalsim was the first ever dhalsim to take a ROUND off daigo's yun. Very bad matchup.

Wasn’t that when ryu had a hilariously gimpy low fwd and just generally the games worst character

I had to look up the match and it's pretty funny: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Z7yoZ5uc27bXo3k.html Two FT3 sets. Daigo uses Ryu in the first set, which takes like 70% of the runtime of the video... And then he switches to Yun. (Also Baf's anecdote about Daigo's Yun not losing a single round to a Dhalsim before that set is mentioned by Seth Killian on commentary in this vid)

Keep in my mind Yun didn’t have light shoulder into red focus in AE. Red focus came to sf4 woth ultra edition (and Yun was still incredibly OP without it).

I also main Sagat and Yun in the SF4 series!

I actually really like Gouken. Nine times out ten when people make a shoto variant it’s always pushed towards rushdown, but Gouken is the only example of pushing towards zoning. Charge fireballs are really fun zoning tools and lead to funny mixups.