People excuse too much these POS german cars.

@@Chris-hw4mq POS? It was running fine for over 20 years until those numb-nuts messed up the tolerances.

Maybe,in the same sentence he admits they mixed up the conrod caps on the 1600,hmmm

@Dave Stennett how do ypu match injector spray pattern to non direct injection engine? I would say that spray pattern has to be matched to intake runners where injector is spraying. Otherwise it might be spraying fuel onto runner wall.

@Dave Stennett agree. I was just refering to the engine in question which is s54b32 and that does not have direct injection. Surely injectors shiuld be changed when inreasing power to not exceed 70-80% DC.

Exactly.

I know a rally engine builder who will not build you a engine if he doesn’t know who you are and what ya like He will not build a car or engine if you’re a car breaker with no mechanical sympathy That’s what the pros do or yoh gotta ask before hand a few questions. When the customers chatting 💩 about the engine you ask a few leading questions, do you want it built ready to go or do yo7 want it running in, is it for track or rally use as there’s different bearings we would recommend and then when idiot says it’s a drift monsta you say yeah great ,..l NO WARRANTY MUTHAF****

Another engine killed by a dyno mapping muppet. Seen loads.

Agreed . Unless machining, building, tuning and running in is all done in-house .

@@lesley1174 That is a possibility. However, I have seen a lot of detonation damage over the years, although I am not an engine builder myself I was connected to the motor trade for 30 years and know several engine guys, and this is consistent with that. I have also noticed that since everything went to maps and especially turbos, there are an awful lot of dyno guys and mapping "experts" getting it badly wrong, and I have seen the consequences more times than I remember, so maybe I am coloured in my judgement!

I was wondering about the break in also, but detonation is a tune issue on a new build

No, you didn't quite hear it. First it was built, then when they were at it they messed up and didn't check oil squirter tolerances, after they got mangled up and rods weren't cooled off properly under load, they expanded and pistons contacted the head. It doesn't help that they skimmed the block and the head also making less room to spare. They tried to know better than the original engineers 20 years ago and failed miserably. Now it's gonna be hunt down the customer's fault all over.

@@FrozenHaxor Rubbish. Pistons 'expanding', never heard of it, and if they did, they'd never hit the head.

@@bob1947essex Who mentioned pistons expanding? Certainly not me.

@@bob1947essex That damage looks like a seizure of the piston in the cylinder, caused by insufficient clearance or by overheating (which causes insufficient clearance through expansion of the aluminium alloy piston by more than the iron or steel cylinder) or by lack of lubrication. A seizure can also be caused by running the engine hard after new parts are fitted without following a suitable running-in procedure. It probably is not possible to properly run-in a high-performance car or motorcycle engine on public roads.

Agree then goes bingo bango and has a cylinder Block to make a nice table

The Tuner has not mangled up the oil squirters my friend. This is another clear example of a Barum disaster.

@@battlebbot WW2 type heavy milling/lathe machinery are not bad, in fact, they can be just accurate as modern CNC machinery, sometimes they can hold a tighter variance of tolerances on produced parts during their working operations.

Can relate to that, that is how it goes with racing, which is all about pushing it to the limits, and sometimes beyond. Cheers, Marc D

I had 2 rebuilt mx5 engines drop a big end on the motorway cruising at 3500rpm with almost no throttle/power, sometimes you can blame the shop...

Gloves.

Decent hand cleaner not cheap kerosene based rubbish

“I raised the Rev limit and added pops n bangs, now it’s dead, it must be the engine..”

I suspect m division would have tried and failed a few times before they got it anywhere near right. And that's with a few development engines to mess around with

@@battlebbot “For my part, I consider that it will be found much better by all parties to leave the past to history, especially as I propose to write that history myself.”

@@foamdataservices top class comment these muppets think the exhaust backfiring is what they strive for on the chav cruise circuit 🍄

Hear Hear!

like the side of the piston melting, right? Thats caused by the piston hitting the head...

@@csutakgergo5279 No obviously the side of the piston will not hit the head, but the snapped oil jet will cause overheating and the piston looks like a typical overheating partial seizure damage. The pistons aren't going to rock enough to hit the head in a correctly sized bore and they all appear to be hitting the head square, I've had MC pistons detonate, burn through in the same area into the ring grooves and cause similar damage to the piston skirts, though not from hitting the head, just crap fuel and advanced ignition.

I agree. To my eyes, there is a very well defined line on the squish parts of the pistons. I don't think you would get a line like that if the piston was damaged by detonation?

@@whizzo94 There *is* detonation, but that's not the same as the piston/head clash. So could be an extreme over rev (probably on a down change mishap,) but more likely not enough clearance. It's all pretty nasty.

Because they don't bother to actually measure up the clearances during assembly, they just slap it together and toss it out the door. Rods expanded and here you go.

@@FrozenHaxor And you know this how exactly?🙄

@FrozenHaxor did they skim the block or head? If I recall correctly, BMW advise against skimming because the clearance is already so tight, so would a skim cause it?

That's why upgraded and not OEM parts were used.

Agree fubar simples 🤪

If the oil jet gets tagged the piston will not cool properly. The piston expands and gets tight in the bore, causing the major scoring shown. Hard to get all the bits to like rachother when this happens.

@@daledavies2334 Which is builder's fault, they didn't check the tolerances.

@@FrozenHaxorWho checked deck height? Well from what I could see, only some pistons showed witness marks from kissing the head. Head gasket compressed thickness has to be taken into account for assembly. There are gaskets of different thickness that can be used. If the piston at TDC is bit below the deck surface, a thinner gasket may be used. If the piston comes above the deck surface a thicker gasket may be required. Depending on the con rod material and expected RPM red line, the piston to head clearance needs to be 0.040" to 0.035". Aluminium con rods and higher RPM require the higher clearance spec. Aluminium rods may need more clearance due to expansion with heat when used in an iron block and they stretch more at high RPM than steel rods. IMHO this is a possible final assembly issue. I do not know who did the final assembly, which is an unknown factor once it leaves the machine shop. But my main concern lies with the tune that was done on the dyno. What is not determined is when the oil squirters were bent and how. Those determined the cylinders that failed the worst. Spending the money to rebuild a potent engine for track use and not getting the fuel injectors rebuilt is not smart. A bit of dirt in a nozzle hole and the spray pattern and volume is off, which can lead to lean spots and detonation in the cylinder. A dyno run may be short enough a marginal problem will not display itself, but track time will show up any issue quickly. Going through the gears up a straight away is similar to a dyno run. Then a corner is approached and you back off. This gives a momentary cooling to pistons and exhaust valves. But remember there is mass involved in the valves and pistons. A bunch of that cooling is surface only because once you get close to the corner apex you are on part throttle to maintain momentum. Once you reach the apex you are applying throttle again as conditions allow. This puts more heat in than came out. Net effect is that the components get to an eventual equillibrium on heat. An engine assembly is like a chain, only as strong as the weakest link. Track days will find that, and anything not 100% correct will be revealed. In this instance, once the piston skirts got tight and scuffed, the clearance opened up. Is that what let the con rod kiss the oil squirter, or was the squirter bent during assembly? Could they have been installed turned a bit. There is normally not much room for the squiters to clar the crankshaft counterweights and connecting rods.

ay in karting everyone stuck there hand over the carb to flood an cool the engine at the end of the straight

So please tell us how you do this with a race car ? Or a 1000hp front wheel drive hot hatch for drag racing ?

Used to race 2stroke karts. Melted so many from running lean. Really looking like tuner issue. Bad tune, race track, ouch

Exactly, your not going to get detonation from running rich. More like it will wash the bores.

Agreed. Should've gotten a flow matched set. No reason to risk running out of fuel for starters with the OEM ones.

It's possible the engine wasn't detonating when it was being tuned. Making it 3/4 of the way through a track day can often mean 20+ minutes of being run flat out...three or four times before it scorched the pistons. We've seen problems with Shelby GT350's where people were told they're 'track ready' then go and beat them unmercifully for a few hours...including how many over-revs....and then wonder why the engine failed. I'd want to see the data log in this engine and how hot it got? Pushing a tune on the dyno is NOT the same as pushing it for an extended track session where it gets much, much hotter...both coolant and oil. If you want something to be durable enough for extended track time you have to be a little conservative with the tune...seems pretty simple but so many people want that big 'Bragging Number' when on the dyno.

@@recoilrob324 very true sir however all depends how advanced the ecu is to data log, plus for all the pistons to do that is rather odd,

What would cause that ?

@@spurs079 pistons to tall, block could be skimmed to much, to thin head gasket etc etc. It’s hard to see it could be pre detonation to.

@@spurs079 Big end bearing failure.

@@petervw56 yes true, however wouldn’t that be something that would be apparent once the engine has reached running temperature

@@johncrowley5612 it’s an understandable theory. However if so, was it a build issue or a pedal to the metal issue. The fact of the matter is the truth lyes with Lee. These scenarios can get so complex especially if no one wants to take responsibility

There’s a racing blue Sierra coz on eBay right now with a Barum engine and the invoices are in the pics

Just thought I'd add; with that kind of compression, I'd be spending some time rounding all of those sharp edges on the pistons and giving the crowns a bit of a polish, as well as any other sharp spots in the chambers, including the edge at the head face.

I forgot to say that a good look at the big end bearing and the rings/lands will also show signs of pre-det. Ask the guy for the logs and check the stoic. If the maps look good, my money is hv flow. Pumps, small dia lines, jets, are all often overlooked and have cooked more engines. You can build the best engine, yet it takes the car builder and tuner to let it survive.

That's part of the tune if you know what you're doing.

@@1magnit how many actually do that though?

Before that though you'd check the plugs , make sure they're all the same colour. But you can pretty much tell from the combustion chambers.

Precisely

I used to laugh at Chinese instruction manuals that would say things like : Do not hit item with hammer. Do not put item in swimming pool. Do not drop item out of window of tall building. Do not leave item on railway tracks. But it seems it is now necessary to list every conceivable thing that some dimwit may do with the item they purchased otherwise they will come back later and blame you for not telling them. I sold a reconditioned engine to a fellow who made out he was a automotive genius. He made me feel it would be patronising to list to him everything that he should or should not do. This "automotive genius" then went on to mix a batch of coolant up for the engine using his local bore water, which was full of salt. Six months later he contacts me saying the motor l'd sold him was full of rust. Bad luck pal. Private sale. No warranty. No warranty on abused items. He should have asked questions, but these car know it alls never do until the shite hits the fan.

rod angulation is the better way to describe it. For a given stroke (lateral movement) a longer rod will have less angle change thus reducing side loading.

Good reply mate. But I'm suspicious of the build quality from this bloke. He's got the gift of the gab, that's how he owns Lamborghini's and lotus. The equipment in the shop are ancient, no modern machines. Probably get away with average factory spec rebuild, but unable to put together race engine with any succes to longevity. The give away is broken oil cooler nozzles rubbing against rods. If he can't dyno test minimum to prove a basic build that's modified he shouldn't build the engine on the fly. The customer gets for what he pays. Knock sensors are standard on factory ecus, think about it, pistons overheated, caused by broken piston oil cooler nozzles being broken due to misalignment or bad workmanship. The pistons started to gall up in bore, overheating that much, a factory ecu wouldn't allow knocking caused by bad fuel ignition timing to get to the point of melting piston skirts. He blames pistons rocking due to detonation and causing side play of rod hitting oil nozzles and braking them, what's the side clearance of the rod to the crank web? What's the crack end play? Don't trust this shop, but love all their returns. I'm addicted to their shite they spin. Cheers from SA.

Lee needs to have total control over the tuning, so full build, a dyno and common sense is what he needs. These "tuners" drive the shix out of these engines while on the dyno and stress everything to their limits. And, this is what happens. I'd hate to have to deal with these owners who abuse their cars this badly. Lee and his guys are not stupid. They build engines with care, but then the owner pushes the limit and this is what's to be expected. Mixture/timing and over-rev cannot be Lee's concern, unless he builds the entire package. Of course, fuel quality/flow and timing and an over-zealous driver will trash any engine.

Yeah mate, we built a speedway car with an old 253 cid Holden GM motor. It is called standard saloons. Lost oil pressure because of sludge and carbon build up, in practice 1 week before the start of our season. We pulled it down, cleaned it and put it back together with a new gasket kit, same rings and bearings, and on its debut we had people say wtf. Ten cars in each heat, 4 races that night, (new cars start last or rear of field as, a gentlemans agreement) 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, the final race they put us on pole pos. We started that race with 7 cars for the final, but we started 7th and took home flag. Ran that same motor for 2 years and had some fun. We proved that worn in motor can be better.

It's because they don't bother to actually measure up the clearances during assembly, they just slap it together and toss it out the door. Rods expanded and here you go.

@@FrozenHaxor Unadulterated nonsense.

And that is why this is another fine Barum disaster.

@@FrozenHaxor So is that what happened in this case is it ? I do not know, just saying it happens. as I said in my 1st comment, I would like to see the cyl head and check for damage ....preignition and detonation are to totally different scenarios with different visual out comes

I was thinking the same. If it’s running higher compression then the oil jets will be even more important. Add to that the tunner has probably advanced the ignition. Maybe the oil jets have failed first and then the pistons have overheated causing the detonation.

@@jacquesevans1023 to be honest the damage to the oil jets is an issue that probably happened as soon as the engine ran at high rpm. Although the upper part of the pistons have damage the engine does not seem to have had enough clearance around the oil jets. I understand that there are issues with warranties on tuned engines but in my opinion this engine was assembled with a problem. I may be wrong but in this individual case I think a compromise about warranty is appropriate.

I don't even trust new injectors, always get them flow tested. I've seen many new ones flowed with huge differences in flow and spray patterns all effed up.

"BMW just went to 360 of the CSL engine and sad the can't go any further" Surely you can get more than 112.5hp/L out of a built racing version of an engine though, as per the customer's car? Their goal of 120 hp/L wasn't that ambitious. For example your namesake 320i Super Tourenwagen would have produced around 320bhp from a 2.0, so 160hp/L, and MotoIQ have a series on how to achieve 150 hp/L from a built version of the Honda K24.

@@TassieLorenzo First of all, thank you for finding my spelling mistakes, corrected them. Secondly.... if you wanna be a wisecrack you should KNOW what you are talking about and NOT cut of a quote where it suits your search for an argument..... I EXPLICITLY stated "they can't go any further without compromising engine safety and they would get into an area where they couldn't guarantee a working engine after just a few hundred kilometers of driving it hard" for a GOOD reason that you are obviously unaware of..... the block of the S54 is in size and measurements identical to the S50 and S52..... so BMW just enlarged the bore to get more displacement out of the block and combined that with matching pistons and rods to achieve this goal leaving only MILLIMETERS between the bores.... your example of the E36 four cylinder touring car S42-engine (which by the way is based on the M42 engine that was a 1,8liter and not a 2liter and per S2000 race car regulations had to have at least 2000 cars sold to get it homologated and use it as a race engine basis.....) is a bad one for you because this engine has a LOT more "meat" between the bores so it can take that pressure of more hp per cylinder MUCH better plus it is a cast iron block instead of an aluminum one in the S54..... So..... if you wanna be a wisecrack, do your homework or better be quiet than letting everyone KNOW you have NO clue what you're talking about..... I KNOW my way around BMW engines from the E36 and E46 era, so no chance for your constructed arguments here. Go pick on some other commenter that has no clue what he's babbling about....