The more I see the teardown of the CYC the more i am concerned. CYC from what i have seen haven't responded to any of the concerns (e.g., serviceability , drag etc). This is a premium priced motor i would expect better design from, and from there marketing i was keen to purchase it but decided to see if real life lived up to thr marketing. Hopefully the Toseven DM02 is better. Thanks for your excellent videos.

1. Months ago I researched mid-mount motors and concluded my first should be from CYC. Every video I saw back in the day impressed me greatly. I've taken no action since then, but would like to soon. 2. I may be an "edge case" kind of rider. My objective is to move on my own power most of the time and rely on the motor exceptionally (on very long rides, over especially demanding terrain). This implies my motor bearings must be no less good than those that came with the bike (candidates being a Surly Pugsley and a Fuji Bighorn). In 58 years on wheels, I have NEVER encountered what you describe and I won't tolerate feeling such friction, period. 3. CYC should express gratitude to you for your analysis. You can tell them that if I am representative of cycling "fanatics," CYC had better develop a permanent and elegant fix for both problems you cite. As for customers who have already purchased friction-prone motors, perhaps a simple, low-cost fix can be shipped from the factory gratis. Spacers seem like good candidates for such a retrofit.

CYC now offers a proper tool, a 5-pins adapter for a socket set, for removing the chainring. I ordered one with a chainring and it works fine with a chain whip.

Photon technical support sent me a picture of how to remove their cover using the crank arm attached to the spindle as the second lever together with their tool. Place them near one another (like at four and 6 o’clock) and squeeze together. I’d show you the pic, but KZfaq doesn’t allow it. It worked for me.

Another informative video. Classic tolerance stack up...as you rightly address. This is a rudiment of every design that occurs in the design development phase. Typically, in prototype, worse case tolerance stack is emulated with specially fabricated parts to simulate the entire manufacturing tolerance. Worse case in nature is rare statistically but when it occurs, there can be an issue. This is what separates designs. More robust designs are less sensitive to manufacturing variation. To me, this in inexcusable. I come from this world. Cartridge bearings are made to tight tolerances. So this is a design flaw. There should be no compensatory work around when building the bike. Lowered torque in assembly to reduce interference will reduce retention for example. Because everything is drawn on CAD via computer today and can be 3D modeled and 3D printed for tolerance checks there is no reason for this mis-step. As to disassembly with that tool....if you have a local bicycle shop and its a large shop, there is generally one strong man there. One guy can hold the body and other spin that tool. Staccato force always breaks things loose easier than dull force as it turns out. I had a stuck pedal on a bike I couldn't get apart and I build all my bikes and there was a strong man that could remove it. This guy had serious strength. What I would do in your case John, is contact CYC and perhaps send them this video. Let them come back to you and explain what their path is forward to fix their design...and maybe send you a resized motor to test. You could also ask them how to get the thing apart...if they have any suggestions. This is critical info for the ebike community and thanks for all you do to enlighten us.

Thanks for your honesty about this motor. No motor is perfect, but this could make future versions better, if they care...

I love to know of CYCs comment on the bearing preload issue. I think that that tool should span between 3 holes which might make it slightly better. CYC should provide a bench mountable 5 pin jig.

I had a ton of trouble trying to swap down from a 50t to a 38t chainring. In the end what did it for me was to make a much longer lever to work with. I put a piece paper over the 5 holes in the chainring cap and poked through at the holes to make a template. Then I found a scrap of plywood maybe 4 feet long and wide enough fit all 5 holes. I drilled the hole locations and found some bolts the right length and diameter to use. I also stuck a 5 foot piece of pipe over my chainring tool handle. It still required a *lot* of force and the ends of these levers. Like I thought I was going to break it and kept pulling well past that point. I'm very surprised I didn't shred it. This time when I installed the new chainring I used some anti-seize on the threads, which I hope will help the next time around. Possibly this might be related to torque loads that happen with a 50t chainring? I don't know.

I was thinking about getting me one of these but after watching this video, i think i'll wait to see other models

When pulling the lockring off, pull towards your body with your back muscles instead of pushing away or compressing with your chest muscles.

Left side bearing is S6805RS - stainless 25x37x7 single rubber seal. There are many alternative configurations that should work - chrome steel and ceramic options, with one or 2 rubber seals. Bearings 61805 are the same size and should also work.

solid video dude, hope to learn more about the photon, once all the issues get ironed out might be a good motor for a nice eMTB conversion. still not sold on the 85nm bosch bikes that require 8,000 USD for 250w.

The relationship between chain whip and tool in your video is counterintuitive to maximizing your muscles and leverage. Change the position of the tools relative to each other so you can apply maximum power of your arms, shoulda, body etc. Set it up so the chain whip is bearing down on a bench or your gut or something. Hope you can follow my poor explanation?😉

Funny you mention this. I noticed today my photon seemed sluggish to pedal without power. As if its dragging on something. Im going to see if that bearing is the issue. Thanks.

Great video

Good info to be aware of. I have a couple of ideas to shim out the bearing with round spacers and fabricate a simpke long tool out of flat steel with locating pins to engage the ring with lots of torque. Just ordered the Pro gen 3 and will be more aware of this type of issue.

If you ever watched Hambini Perfomance Engeneering, it is always about manufactoring tolerances. You can even see paint rub off where something is touching where it aint suppose to touch

I don't think that bearing is supposed to bottom out into the cup. I don't have the installation directions but I would pus the bearing in as far as the outer lip allows, then tighten the lock collar so that it JUST touches, then back it up ever so slightly (for thermal expansion), then clamp it down. If the axle doesn't touch, you're golden. Also, the drag you're feeling isn't really an issue at all. If the motor isn't turning what you're feeling is the one-way clutch, seems like a sprag type. You spun the axle backwards. If you went forward we would see the chainring rotate. When you spin it in the correct direction I think you'll notice what I'm talking about. There might still be a bit of drag, assuming it's grease, but I don't know how many gears are in the way before the one-way clutch is installed on the motor itself. Typically they would be installed as close as possible to the final output, but then it would be subjected to the most radial and axial forces = bad life expectancy. Anyways, I'm going to purchase one and take a look myself. I do a bit of engineering myself :)

I’ve tapped on the tool with a rubber mallet to get it started. Not elegant, but worked for me when I needed to take it apart.

For adjusting the tolerance on that bearing cup, I would lay a sheet of fine grit sand paper on the flattest surface you have. Then lap the face of the cup until you have enough clearance to not bind on that plastic insert. Sure you'll lap the color off, but should be no biggy. BTW I've found BB cups from all types, and manufactures (even the big guys) to be binding, and stiff feeling. A lot of times is all fine under load, even if it feels stiff while turning by hand. I have one of these Photons coming, need it for a PF92 frame I have. Been a long time tongsheng tsdz2 with OSF user, but no real great options for PF92 BB. I found some extensions, and PF92 inserts, but seemed too hacky IMO. Thanks!

Chain ring: I would put the motor back in the frame to hold it stationary. Warm up lock ring with a heat gun. Get a pipe over both wrenches for more leverage, and have someone else hold it all while you work .

Find or make a narrow ring to fit in the "cup" before you put the bearing back in. It just has to clear the "inner race" to work. For the outside assembly, put a 1 mm feeler gauge between the bearing and the "lock ring" so there is just a bit of "end play" in the shaft when you set that clearance and tighten down the set screw. For getting the chain ring "lock cover" off, you might want to do what I had to do on my Yamaha Tmax to get the CV clutch off. I took a large washer and drilled holes in it's circumference to match up with the holes. Then I added Grade 12 metric bolts to the holes to act as pins. I then welded a pipe handle to it and with a "whole lot" of grunting, it came off. I also had to heat up one small area of the nut with a torch to expand the nut so the wrench would work. Or you might try to find a pipe that would fit over the end of the "pin wench" to use as a "cheater bar". Maybe flatten it a bit so it does not twist on the pin wrench. Go luck.

I've just received my photon and installed it. Didn't seem to have these issues initially, definitely seems like there is drag in the transmission, but none while say just backward pedaling. I'll be keeping an eye out for this issue... Odd question that I can't seem to find an answer to. Does the Photon have a regen when not in assist mode? Say while just pedaling? Thanks for all of the information on this rig!

new into the idea of building a ebike with kits like this, What does this mean for the motor, is it still worth getting it or will it fail in long run?

Put the 'chainwhip' tool in a vice to secure it so it will free up one hand and you can use two on the pin spanner tool.

when trying to remove the chainring, position your the handles of your chainwhip and specialty tool closer together, so you can squeeze them together to loosen. rookies….lol

How about making a spacer for the o.d. of the bearing that would space it out the appropriate amount. Do you know someone with a metal lathe?

I was never planning on buying a CYC motor, but I am really disappointed in their products from what I have seen. Their price points and marketing will have you believe that they have a premium product, but it seems like the attention to detail simply wasn't there when designing their motors. That being said, have you tried using a pipe as an extension for extra leverage with the chain whip?

Heck Mate mine didn`t even come with the spanner. I don`t know if the distributor took it out as to resale or it didn`t get put in box from manufacturer

How did you remove and reinstall the bearing onto the non-drive side BB cup?

Interesting.. This motor is one of the candidates I was thinking of for my cargo bike.. Is there any reason why you couldn't buy or make a washer from 0.5mm shim stock to push the bearing out beyond the 0.44mm issue? Granted it shouldn't be like that from the factory. RE the lockring...Trying to work that with your hands at 180deg to each other is making it difficult for yourself. Position the tools so that they are close together and you can use both hands wrapped around them the crack off the lockring. Or do similar in terms of positioning them close together but use the chain whip against the workbench and tap the other tool with a hammer.

I'm having the same issues. Chain ring stuck on.... and just started making noise, sounding like bearings. Only have 70miles on it. Before that...whisper quite. So took it apart and put it back together. That's when i discovered the chain ring stuck. I choose the 34. Was thinking about going to the 38. But idk? now.... Anyway. Went for a ride. Now it sounding like its in the motor now... Going to contact CYC. Just bought it in September.

I doubt anyone could loosen the ring in the position you held it. Try setting things up such that you can hold/squeeze both the chain wrench and the tool supplied by CYC in one hand (or two). This will give you much better leverage. If that doesn't work then you can resort to more mechanical advantage with pipe etc., but always best to be in an orientation where the two handles need to be brought closer together. That way you will have more control and, I think, better results.

Consider making a tool out of angle iron , or using a cheater bar made from exhaust tubing which can be hammered to fit spanner .

The plastic bearing shield is not only causing the bearing to appear stiff, it is probably preloading the bearing and may cause it to wear. At least that should be replaceable with another OTS bearing. Ironically, over-preloading the setup with the lockring may actually remove the preload caused by the plastic shield. Maybe the fix is to just chamfer the inner edge of the bearing cup, or drop a shim into the cup before fitting the bearing - but 0.4mm is a LOT! Can you identify the bearing size please?

where you ever able to get the chain ring off? im having the same issue with my motor

hi, i have the same problem on both sides , but much worse on the non drive side, i have picked the plastic bearing insert away from the bb cup and runs smooth, but as soon as you tighten up the lock ring its stiff again, , on the chain ring thread i used some anti seize compound, so i hope this makes it easier to remove, i will find out tomorrow ,, is this plastic ring thing even needed? thanks for the video...

The chainring is more easily removed when the motor is installed on the bike, it is much easier to get good leverage. I have removed and installed a couple of chainrings now no problem, and I am a girl! 😊

Are you shore about the Axle is not off on being straight?

In their latest video about the Photon, Rikus addresses several issues including the use of copper based anti-sieze compound when fitting the chainring retaining ring. There is also now a 5 pin 1/2" tool available in their shop for that ring. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/d66ke8WnsdvcdJc.htmlsi=IrqB_hEKi5UCTaDS

Have you tried putting a pipe on tool for more leverage

Just wanted to comment - at 1200km my left bearing feels rough. It is clearly in the early stages of complete failure. Corresponding bearing on right side feels as good as new (of course, that doesnt spin while pedalling).

A sharp impulse with a hammer and orienting the tools correctly will really help remove the chainring. You need to be pulling them towards each other very close together then get the wife to give your tool a few love taps with a copper wammer

secure motor in a "jig" (vise?), then reverse your tools and instead of "push" try to "pull" adjusting for optimal tool placement..

John could you put a bit of copper grease on the outer side of the bearing this may stop your friction

This chainring design is clearly a low point of this motor. They need to modify the design to provide a better mechanism for this. The tool they provide is awful, and having to use a chain whip is not ideal, unless you have three hands. Perhaps a spring loaded holding pin like we find on rear derailleurs, and a nut versus having to use a spanner? Hopefully they address this, as well as the bearing issue you point out.

That sucks Looks like you need to make a tool You could make those two prongs stick up from a bit of metal that you can clamp in a vice Then sit the motor on top And get some real leverage on the chain whip But I would say the prongs might break. Here is a couple ideas You could alfind some high tensile steel that would fit into the prong holes. Eg I'm thinking high tensile bolts chopped down Get long bolts with short threads Lots of bare shaft The same od as the prong tool prongs Remove the thread and the bolt head in the process chopping the two bits of high tensile bolt shaft down to the correct length you need. You could just then clamp them into the vice sticking up or You could also find a bit of metal and drill and tap two holes in it Insert your long bolts thread first all the way though or in Then chop the bolt shafts off at the correct length leaving two prongs sticking up . Then clamp that in a vice

Good to know the issue is minor.

I just received my photon and the bearing on the drive side is tight while the other side feels fine. Here's a video: kzfaq.infoUttb2qOFI7Y I would agree that on mine, it feels more like rubbing than like a bad or tight bearing, but I haven't taken it apart. Edit: I just pushed on the bearing from the back with my hand and it loosened to the point where it now feels smooth, definitely a bit concerning.

Even reputable bike makers like Cervelo and pinarello have issues with bearing cup misalignment. This is Unacceptable

Try 2 pin spanners. One in each hand while the motor is being held in place.

If you're putting the cyc on the wife's bike, what are you moving onto next?

you need to turn in to she man hold the motor up and say i have the power 😁

You need a bigger hammer. Fixes everything that duct tape can't.

The tool doesn’t exist. If you look at the Pinion lock ring & tool that is what needs to be made. Interface with all the pins and actually get a torque wrench on. Shit design from CYC with a proprietary chainring.

you'll never loosen the lock ring, you need leverage the ring tool needs a good 30cm/12' extention then it should loosen much easier, as said elsewhere that 2 pin tool is a shit design the tool should engage more of those holes on the ring .... the bearing seat, you could try using shims, you could make one from a coke can just to see if that helps or order shims online somewhere or the extreme, machine the outter down on the bearing seat