I don't really understand how his framing of messengers delivering a message from the King differs from the Catholic conception of tradition/teaching authority/infallibility. Catholics don't think the Magisterium and the Pope are infallible, as such, anymore than the King's messenger is infallible, as such. They're all infallible precisely and only when they're delivering the King's message. The difference, really, is that the Catholic thinks there are objective ways to determine whether the message is from the King beyond investigating the contents of the message. The messenger might deliver many things that aren't the King's message- might scribble madcap soup recipes after a bender or musings on a duck's bill during a stroll beneath the moonlight- but when the message has the King's seal, and the messenger is decked out just so, it's the King's message and you can trust it. The Protestant sees the message and asks, "is this the sort of thing I think the King would say?" Or, perhaps, more robustly, "is this message consonant with previous things the King has said?" But if the judgment of the latter ultimately and finally depends on you, you're stuck with the former. And it must ultimately and finally depend on you. There's no way around it. If you defer to anything other than the locutions of your own intellect, to determine whether a particular doctrine or dogma is consonant with the Bible, then you're giving that thing, in that instance, the same exact status Catholics give the Magisterium or the Pope, when they're teaching authoritatively. Except it's a revolving authority. Here, C.S. Lewis; there, John Calvin. As strikes your fancy. As satisfies your intellect. It's, of course, true, as Gavin Ortlund and others have pointed out, that everyone must do this. Catholics don't decide that the Catholic Church has authority from a free-floating neutrality, divorced from their own will and intellect. But the Catholic, ideally, does it once. He says, "here are the King's messengers, here's how you can recognize them, and here's what the King's seal looks like. I didn't hire the messengers or create the seal, and if these messengers deliver a message with this seal, I must submit, regardless of my own predilections".
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
You make a good point. Something else that sticks out to me is that the Church is precisely the messenger that God has sent to be a perpetual witness to the truth. As such, we do not identify the “true messenger” by how much we agree with the message. Instead, we identify the true message by figuring out which messenger is sent by the King. Great points!
@DarkHorseCrusader4 ай бұрын
Exactly! Sounds like he's trying to have it both ways.
@tony16854 ай бұрын
@@thecatechumen i've asked many times if you consider anything comparable to God's Word. nothing. why do you hate Scripture so much?? - like Satan, Scripture exposes his 'church' now as well - perhaps this is why.
@emiliobazzarelli42704 ай бұрын
@@tony1685in this video he literally said that the scripture is the highest authority and is ontologically unique in its mode of infallibility
@tony16854 ай бұрын
@@emiliobazzarelli4270 then the clear and undeniable question is - why doesn't he follow It ??
@DarkHorseCrusader4 ай бұрын
It must be nice to be able to pick and choose which councils one agrees with.
@halleylujah2474 ай бұрын
I don't know what this means?
@DarkHorseCrusader4 ай бұрын
@@halleylujah247 Hi Halley! Listen to the section on Ecumenical Councils (about minute 36.55). He (the Protestant) basically agrees with the councils when they agree with him.
@ModernLady4 ай бұрын
Isn’t that what Protestants do all the time? Pick and chooses what they agree with and what they don’t want to agree with.
@EmberBright20774 ай бұрын
@@ModernLady I think that's his point
@noahgaming88334 ай бұрын
@@ModernLadyyeah, literally the greek word for heresy means to pick and choose.
@justintrefney10834 ай бұрын
As a Catholic millennial who has been playing Minecraft since 2011 I loved this video! Am at the point in my life where I don't play often, usually I join my kids worlds to help them. This is the type of Minecraft videos I would want my sons to watch when they are a little bit older.
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
That’s awesome!! I’m glad you enjoyed it. I was wondering if there would be anyone who cared for the gameplay in the background 😂 Apparently, it’s a real niche that needs to be filled considering the amount of views RZ’s content gets. Maybe I’ll do more of these (cautiously… I don’t want to rip off RZ’s video style 😂). Maybe one day, I’ll play with my son. God bless!
@jesussaves66253 сағат бұрын
@@thecatechumenMy fourteen year old daughter enjoys watching Minecraft gameplay and I find that a lot of those channels are kind of a waste of time. I'd love to see you do occasional Minecraft videos while discussing theology.
@DrewTheCatholic4 ай бұрын
Do I feel a Catholic Creators minecraft server coming to fruition?
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
👀👀👀
@nyxhighlander98944 ай бұрын
Hopefully I would build a 1 to 1 scale Haiga Sophia
@Ruudes14834 ай бұрын
There is the AFcraft server.
@DrewTheCatholic4 ай бұрын
@@nyxhighlander9894Deus Vult. God Wills it.
@Baraodojaguary4 ай бұрын
That already exists
@DarkHorseCrusader4 ай бұрын
If the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, then the Church must be infallible.
@_ready__4 ай бұрын
Sorry. It’s not
@jonathanrivero34244 ай бұрын
Yes, also, this Bible passage single handedly refutes Protestantism. Protestantism does not adhere to the truth that Christ established a single visible institution which remains so to this day. They believe that the Church is something along the lines of the invisible body of believers in Christ, regardless of their denomination (some exclude Catholics). However, this makes no sense whatsoever, because the entire body of believers in Christ is made up of thousands of groups and denominations with opposing beliefs. How can the church, as in the invisible body of believers in Christ, be the pillar and foundation of truth? It must be that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth because it is a visible, single institution with an established set of teachings binding on all believers.
@jonathanrivero34244 ай бұрын
@@_ready__The Bible teaches that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. I assume that you believe that the Church is an invisible body of believers. Please tell me how you interpret 1 Timothy 3:15 in your view of what the Church is.
@_ready__4 ай бұрын
@@jonathanrivero3424 where do you get your interpretations from?
@spikenikz4 ай бұрын
@@_ready__your interpretation is also not infalliable
@GabrielPereira-hm1cz4 ай бұрын
Catholic Zoomer > Protestant Zoomer.
@kyrptonite18254 ай бұрын
I remember he made an argument against Purgatory, that went like: Jesus comes in the blink of an eye, what happens for Purgatory then? Well, some Church Fathers apparently said that the antichrist’s persecution would be so terrible; that those Saints left would not need Purgation after death; due to the brutality.
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
@@kyrptonite1825 Brutal
@viniciusoliveira70224 ай бұрын
I do watch RZ videos and The Catechumen, and i know i will LOVE that video. (i'm a Brazilian Roman Catholic)
@bearistotle28204 ай бұрын
Dude, I absolutely cringed when he argued that protestant art is better than Catholic art. Just... how ignorant can you be? Edit: How can he honestly say that it is a "new trend" for protestant churches to have bad aesthetics when the vast majority of Western Iconoclasts were protestants? I literally visited the ruins of a Scottish Cathedral that would have rivaled Notre Dame had it not been destroyed by Protestants.
@YiriUbic37934 ай бұрын
He is not Ignorant he is dishonest like the majority of Protestant
@DrewTheCatholic4 ай бұрын
Still tearing through this masterpiece, and I have to LOL at his claim that we take sin less seriously. Brayden, you and I talked about how the OPPOSITE is true on the livestream we did together lol. Total Depravity in the Calvinist framework =/= taking sin more seriously than everyone else.
@tony16854 ай бұрын
i'm still marveling at how much you cathoilcs ignore the fact that your 'church' mandates sin.
@EPH-re2xj4 ай бұрын
Is Sin the issue
@JohnBoyX5704 ай бұрын
This was super good. You're apologetic skills are pretty impressive for how new you are to the faith. Also... you should debate zoomer WHILE BOTH also playing Minecraft.
@jpanduezadlf4 ай бұрын
The fact that the canon of the Bible stopped after the death of the disciples and it's a closed matter today is also something that the "fallible" Church declared and some protestants uphold, even though they haven't thought it through... God can absolutely reveal books of the Bible after every eyewitness of Jesus died, and there's no actual need for the Bible to be closed to new books, such as the book of mormon or the Qur'an. These books could be revelations of God if protestants didn't agree with the Church in that subject... Unless protestants thought that God didn't have the capacity to keep revealing books of the Bible until this day
@Justarandomcatholic4 ай бұрын
Viva Cristo rey
@Gaius4534 ай бұрын
I loved the style, you should do more of this.
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
Will do!
@Jerome6164 ай бұрын
As a convert, I'm just so impressed with your ability to convey and understand Catholic Theology despite the short time you have been learning this stuff! Keep up the good work.
@luisrios34464 ай бұрын
Welcome to The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church!!! The One True Church with the Fullness of the Faith!!!✝️❤️☦️🇻🇦
@Jerome6164 ай бұрын
@@luisrios3446 don’t hate me, but I think I worded this incorrectly 😓 I was saying that he is a convert, and he had really impressed me .
@luisrios34464 ай бұрын
@@Jerome616 😅well you are still welcome to come!
@Jerome6164 ай бұрын
@@luisrios3446 I already am 👍🏻😁
@luisrios34464 ай бұрын
@@Jerome616 🤩✝️❤️☦️🇻🇦
@TheMacDonald224 ай бұрын
Please make this a series. I love it!
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
Will do!
@littlefishbigmountain4 ай бұрын
No way! I love that you did this, haha, totally caught me off guard. I found you from your “The Worst Part of Protestantism” video. You seem like a really cool dude. Even though I’m converting to Orthodoxy myself, I GUESS I’ll have to drop you a sub anyways 😜 Congrats on the growth btw!
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
I appreciate the sub and thank you!
@MrsYasha19844 ай бұрын
It was really fun listening to this in the background. Serious talking about Church authority, intermingled with 'why can these zombies hit me?!'
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
😂 thanks
@calebstarcher49344 ай бұрын
Really good video, I thought his first point was absolutely ridiculous, so I'm glad that you addressed it. It reminds me a bit of Donatism, which is ironic, seeing as he supposedly loves Saint Augustinus. I also haven't heard him say, and suspect he doesnt quite grasp three points: Firstly, the Church is the mystical body of Christ. If you take this seriously, then it would be insane to say that the Church cannot speak the Word. Secondly, the Bible contains the Word of God, but is not the completion of his Word. God's Word is Jesus Christ, and is the entirety of God's revelation. To think divine revelation could be constrained to a book is laughable. Thidly, he doesn't seem to have tried to apply how the Body of Christ prior to the death of the last Apostle lived. If Sola Scriptura did not apply then, how can we say it applies afterwards?
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
Good points! I'm glad you enjoyed the video
@GumbyJumpOff4 ай бұрын
For your third point: and how would we know if and when Sola Scriptura "got switched on." Jimmy Akin made this sort of point to good effect in his debate with theotherpaul. There certainly is nothing explicit or even implicit in Scripture alluding to this fundamental, massively important shifting / reset which is to come. It could only come from and would have to rest on... men and their supposed authority!
@ProjectMysticApostolate4 ай бұрын
Great video bruv. We need MORE!
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
👏👏
@canibezeroun19884 ай бұрын
"God can deliver an infallible message through a fallible source." Doesn't this dismiss his argument against the Papacy, Magisterium, and Councils outright. Under his definition of fallible, these sinful men can deliver an infallible message from God. We agree, thus we submit to the Pope, Magisterium, and Councils.
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
It at least supports the notion of Sacred Tradition - that's for sure
@razoredge61304 ай бұрын
He said this in context of people pointing to the church delivering bible as an example of infallibility.
@vinciblegaming68174 ай бұрын
@@razoredge6130if I have a right understanding of Catholicism on this, the argument isn’t that Pope Francis, himself, is infallible. The argument is that when he is acting within the authority of his office that he is infallible. Not everything that comes out of the Vatican carries that level of authority. In other words, the trust isn’t that the people are infallible - the trust is that God provides infallibility when speaking within the authority he has given. This is how Moses, a murderer, can speak infallibly… or Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc…
@a_Catholic_Ant4 ай бұрын
I am scared... he's mining copper.
@sebozz20464 ай бұрын
Is he actuality playing while recording? I thought he recorded frst then put vocal over the video. If he really doing both at the same time, it is really great work !
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
I thought RZ did while recording, but I'm not sure lol
@bonniegadsden90974 ай бұрын
Been waiting for someone to rebut this video :)
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
I'm glad I could help!
@daviddabrowski014 ай бұрын
His first comment is already debunked because of the very nature of denominations. Someone disagrees on what the word of God means, they split, they disagree, they split etc Our Lord says, “take it to the church”. Which church? The Anglicans? The Methodists? The Presbyterians? The non denominational? Maybe we should ask the Unitarians about the nature of the Trinity. It’s either God isn’t very good at communicating or you need an infallible interpreter. You need HIS church. Not the church of yourself with the pope you’ve appointed I.e your pastor or oftentimes, yourself.
@wordforever1174 ай бұрын
Might as well ask the mormons at this point 🤣
@noahgaming88334 ай бұрын
2nd! also, thank you for dropping the video so quickly!
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
No problem!
@noahgaming88334 ай бұрын
@@thecatechumenI finished the video, 9/10: not enough Minecraft. But in all seriousness, I would love to see a continuation of redeemed zoomer, because when he was talking about his 3rd point, I kind of gave a bit of doubt because of how his argument felt more like a non sequitor.
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
@@noahgaming8833🙏🙏
@notavailable48914 ай бұрын
Again, we keep granting protestants that the bible is "infallible", but this doesn't make any sense. A static set of writings can't be infallible because it doesn't actively teach anything. They either have to claim that they themselves or someone else are infallible interpreters, or that the holy spirit is infallibly guiding some people to truth through the bible - but neither of these options will work for obvious reasons. But I don't think we can grant them this "scripture is infallible" line, because it implies more impact and legitimacy than their argument actually has. The modern form of SS is, taken literally, incoherent. We would need to steelman their argument by assuming by "infallible" they mean "inerrant". But then I don't see anything compelling about the argument, it will just lead to endless cycles of arguments over what is errant and what isn't with no way to objectively discern one way or another.
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
I just tweeted something like this recently, lol. If we, for the sake of argument, don't concede that Scripture is *an* infallible (inerrant) rule, then we force them to epistemically ground that proposition. The reasoning for affirming the inspiration/infallibility of Scripture can usually be applied to Sacred Tradition.
@CanadianAnglican3 ай бұрын
RZ is a Calvinist. His theology makes no sense. The theology of the Catholic Church makes sense and it drives him insane.
@DarkHorseCrusader4 ай бұрын
Resurrexit sicut dixit, alleluia!
@milkeywilkie4 ай бұрын
been waiting for this 😊
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
🙏🙏
@bourbonrebel55154 ай бұрын
26 minutes in. I wonder if RZ ever talks about how there are instances people spoke/wrote infallibly despite being sinners. Scripture being the most obvious, but most notably on the Church’s declaration on circumcision and the law of Moses in Acts 15. Was it infallible?
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
Facts. The “people are sinful” argument against infallibility falls apart when you consider scriptural inspiration.
@aaronsmith59044 ай бұрын
As an example of Old Testament infallibility, in one gospel St. John says the person who was the high priest that year prophesied saying “It is better for one man to die, than the whole nation to perish”
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
Prophets were definitely infallible when they prophecied
@arethmaran12794 ай бұрын
Thomistic_Zoomer channel rebrand, when? 😂😂
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
Facts 🤣🤣🤣
@jojolities4 ай бұрын
Great work!
@manny755864 ай бұрын
Redeemed Zoomer is one of the best Catholic Evangelists out there. He seems like a nice enough person but I'm not sure apoligetics are his thing. His infallibility argument has a huge flaw. Every Prot im aware of is all about Sola Scriptura. Which they argue is guided by the Holy Spirit and protected by the perspicuity of the Scripture. The issue is: 1. Wouldn't the Pope also be guided by the Holy Spirit and open to the perspecuity of Scripture? 2. The presence of tens of thousands of Prot denominations which differ largely on Scriptural interpretation grounds instantly falsifies the notion that it is perspicuitous. And it's weird that he and other Prots don't get that Catholics view Scripture as the highest earthly authority, and if the Pope said "the 10 commandments are no more" we have every right/duty to say "uh no" and continue following the Bible.
@theosophicalwanderings76964 ай бұрын
I'm planning on doing a response video to this. Will try to keep it concise and I probably wont be playing any video games lol.
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
Sounds good man! I’ll be sure to watch it. I appreciate your thoughts.
@AngelGonzalez-ng9ve4 ай бұрын
Great Video my kind Gent. God bless. 😇🫡🫶🏻🍞🍷🔥✝️📝⛪️🕊
@PhantomRed134 ай бұрын
God bless you and your family 🙏
@DavidelCientificoLoco4 ай бұрын
God bless you and your family aswell ,have a Nice day!
@mmeyerdc4 ай бұрын
❤️ I have heard of Minecraft from my grandnephews, but I’ve never seen anyone play it. 😂
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
Well, now you know! 🤣
@anneliesew48534 ай бұрын
I've been waiting waaayy too long for this debate
@EPH-re2xj4 ай бұрын
Why
@shbsuri4 ай бұрын
This was helpful. Thanks
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
I'm glad it helped out!
@drewbydoo48284 ай бұрын
Had to pause the video to get this out...at about 20:00ish regarding infallibility, he's conflating impeccability with infallibility. This is one of their (probably on purpose?) lacking-in-understandings of Catholic doctrine, always meet this non sequitur head on and don't play their word game. Anyway good video so far, back to it... spez: ah there it is at 23:57. Just put the hammer down on this subject right away in the future, took a while to make the distinction.
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
True! Thanks for the comment!
@CatholicWithaBiblePodcast4 ай бұрын
Should there be a Catholic Minecraft server?
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
Some in the comments are saying there is 🤔🤔 I didn't know before starting my hardcore world though, lol
4 ай бұрын
You play like you have a 1000+ hr hardcore world
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
What can I say... I've had a little bit of experience playing in my earlier years before starting this chanel 😉
@Coteincdr4 ай бұрын
I gotta I do enjoy this type of stream. Never played that game, but is it posible that you two work on the same server/place and engage in conversation while playing together?
@jackhohne61634 ай бұрын
Please make this a series
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
I'm surprised so many people want this to be a series! I had a lot of fun doing it so I do not mind at all, lol. Thanks!
@loganjackson6753 ай бұрын
His real world analogy of king’s messengers being fallible messengers of infallible content is actually kind of an good indication of how the Catholic understanding of authority maps on better to the real world. No one would ever believe a random messenger who spoke on behalf of the king, because then any amount of liars could simply invoke the king and say anything they want with authority. In the real life example, they would need some sort of seal or stamp of authority to indicate that they’re speaking on behalf of the authority and not on their own authority. In other words, the true authority was transferred to the messenger to deliver the infallible message, but in a limited sense in the passing along of revealed information. The messenger isn’t authorized to infallibly create their own information, and everything he says isn’t therefore authoritative, but when he speaks the king’s words with the king’s stamp of approval, he is speaking with the king’s authority
@jesus_is_my_spotter3 ай бұрын
It's great to see young guys like you defend our Catholic faith. I was still questioning the existence of God at your age. Keep up the good work (in all things you do.)
@ModernLady4 ай бұрын
Even if he’s not Catholic.. is it a good idea to send my Minecraft loving son to his channel to inspire him to believe in God? Or even better: will catechism Minecraft be a regular thing? 😅😇
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
I’m thinking more and more from all these positive reactions that I might just HAVE to make it a regular thing 😂
@sandmaneyes4 ай бұрын
HOLY Kingdom Craft 🎉
@GumbyJumpOff4 ай бұрын
At around thr 27 minute mark, when you brought up an example of a Protestant pastor speaking of himself as "anointed" it got me thinking of something again. Does anyone know whether it's actually never been God's positive will for anyone to ever be the leader of a Protestant church? Or is it possible that God, in light of the situation we're in, sometimes does positively will that what someone do for their vocation is be a Protestant pastor? It's pretty sobering if it's the former.
@paul_3214 ай бұрын
Thank you
@vinciblegaming68174 ай бұрын
I just want you to know - my kids watch Hermitcraft after school everyday and today, we watched this all together. They loved it, I loved it. My oldest is 15 and he told me “mom, give it a like!”
@jonathanrivero34244 ай бұрын
@Redeemed Zoomer claimed that he does believe that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. However, he does not adhere to the truth that the Church is a single, visible institution. How can he reconcile the truth that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth to his belief of what the Church is, namely, the invisible body of believes in Christ?
@ianmiller074 ай бұрын
Hi Brayden! I don’t know if you ever respond to articles and such but there is a former-Catholic named Timothy Kauffman who writes very detailed explanations about the Church Fathers and how they don’t actually teach Catholic doctrine. They are persuasive but not necessarily convincing. I have yet to see an in-depth response to any of his points (he’s also very active on X, or Twitter whatever people call it now). His blog is called Whitehorse. I would post a link but KZfaq doesn’t allow that anymore. Pretty sure he’s PCA now. God Bless
@FosterDuncan14 ай бұрын
How could one determine which tradition is god breathed
@nmpltleopardi2 ай бұрын
13:16 "Ave Maria" is not a Catholic composition. IMO protestants (Bach, G.F. Handel) make a great argument for protestants having the best music. But we've got O. Lassus, Palestrina, Vivaldi, Carlo Gesualdo, Josquin des Prez, William Byrd, T.L. de Victoria, etc. So we have our own arguments. But certainly not on architecture. Redeemed Zoomer is trippin
@aubliz12924 ай бұрын
🇻🇦🇻🇦🇻🇦. solo scripture isn’t biblical
@tony16854 ай бұрын
sure it is. nothing is more accurate than His Word and nothing in Christianity can contradict it.
@EPH-re2xj4 ай бұрын
What
@aubliz12924 ай бұрын
@@tony1685 his word is Jesus. not the bible. the bible itself tells you not to trust in the bible alone. you sir are completely wrong. Jesus is the word of God. not the bible
@tony16854 ай бұрын
@@aubliz1292 _'his word is Jesus. not the bible.'_ - *False Dichotomy Logical Fallacy* - His Word would never contradict Him nor His will. _'the bible itself tells you not to trust in the bible alone.'_ - where is Scripture for this, Sir?
@RealSeanithan4 ай бұрын
To Zoomer's very first point: the claim of the Church isn't, I believe, that the Bible can't be understood without the Magisterium. To actually make that claim would be to say that the words of the Bible can never mean what they say and must, in all cases, have a meaning that is hidden to the reader, but the Magisterium has access to the hidden knowledge required to understand anything at all found in Scripture, which is obviously ludicrous.
4 ай бұрын
Lol, if he was saying that, he would be accusing Catholics of gnosticism
@RealSeanithan4 ай бұрын
@ I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he actually meant to say we believe the Magisterium is necessary to ensure proper understanding and interpretation, which is not the same as saying it cannot be understood without the Magisterium.
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
👏👏👏👏
@beyond00774 ай бұрын
God’s image and likeness cannot be totally deprived, creation is good, and it is very good. Love your content, God bless!
@EPH-re2xj4 ай бұрын
God’s image?
@beyond00774 ай бұрын
@@EPH-re2xj Us
@shelbydaniel13304 ай бұрын
Haha “our leaders are heretics most of the time” “facts” 😂 this is the young apologists humor that we need
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
😂
@ModernLady4 ай бұрын
15:10 Laughed out loud. I used to be Lutheran. That church embrace sin. Doesn’t matter what you do. Since all you need is to believe, your sin has no weight. That has led the church to flag lgbt++ flags during service. Nooo! 🫣 Not the chicken! It’s Friday!
@tony16854 ай бұрын
catholicism mandates sin. does this matter to you?
@canibezeroun19884 ай бұрын
Name the sin. And prove it is a sin using scripture or a council.
@TheOtherCaleb4 ай бұрын
You were not a Lutheran. You may have attended a Lutheran church, but you were not taught Lutheranism.
@DavidelCientificoLoco4 ай бұрын
I think he was talking about the Lutheran church not the Catholic church bro@@canibezeroun1988
@DavidelCientificoLoco4 ай бұрын
@@tony1685i think he was talking about the Lutheran church not the Catholic church bro
@DavidSupina4 ай бұрын
Jusy a friendly reminder that even if you could prove to everyone's satisfaction that there is a workable model of Sola Scriptura, you would still have to show that it was willed by God insread of other authority models.
@Jerome6164 ай бұрын
lol. Not on my Christian Minecraft server.
@elijahodell89394 ай бұрын
Based
@elijahodell89394 ай бұрын
Please make a minecraft server
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
It’ll be for Catholics only 😉
@elijahodell89394 ай бұрын
@@thecatechumen cringe
@adelbertleblanc18463 ай бұрын
Jesus never said to trust only the Scriptures but to listen to Him and do what He asks! Yes, Jesus is WORD and Heis not SCRIPTURES!! Jesus is the WORD MADE FLESH and it is a MISTAKE for a CHRISTIAN to think “this is written/this is not written”.
@CanadianAnglican3 ай бұрын
RZ theology isn’t theology.
@ll_Scholastica_ll4 ай бұрын
lol 🙏🙌🕊💡
@ProtestantengLoko-Loko4 ай бұрын
1st to comment. 🙂🙂
@calebstarcher49344 ай бұрын
Christ is King!
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
Amen
@FosterDuncan14 ай бұрын
How could one determine which tradition is god breath.
@noahgaming88334 ай бұрын
The church/magisterium
@FosterDuncan14 ай бұрын
@@noahgaming8833 do you not see the circularity
@Coteincdr4 ай бұрын
@@FosterDuncan1 What is the circularity? Jesus gives authority to the Church, the Church has authority to determine apostolic traditions. That is not circular. Sola Scriptura is circular because you are trying to prove the bible from the bible.
@FosterDuncan14 ай бұрын
@@Coteincdr papacy determines canon and which traditions are valid. Papacy is valid because Mattew 16 the keys are solely given to Peter and he is given infallibility. I believe the apostolic deposit and scripture is the writings or apostles and companions. So obviously you would compare to see whether other traditions are in line. So I will believe any tradition as long as you can prove that’s it’s from the apostles.
@Coteincdr4 ай бұрын
You have it somewhat incorrect. We have historical documents, the gospels and also the writings of clement, ignatious, irineaus, etc. Those documents show that Jesus rose from the dead, and established a Church with Peter as leader and with apostolic succession. And that institution was given by Jesus the power to bind and loose. And because of that hostorical fact we can trust the leader of that same institution. And that would no be circular.
@legacyandlegend4 ай бұрын
I respect both sides here. However, I do have some questions. How can you trust that the oral traditions of the catholic church are reliable? They're fallable men. How do you know they're not lying? With scripture, you can see if something is correct. It's written down. You can't do that with oral tradition. And I know what you'll say, sola scriptura is based on my interpretation. The same goes with the catholic church. They have an interpretation. To say they are the correct interpretation over everyone else is a little misleading. That's like saying they can't twist the word of God and lie. They're fallable men. Scripture's interpretation is subjective. There's no way to know who has the correct one. We can all lie and make mistakes. To think the catholic church can't on the interpretation of scripture and oral tradition is naive. I did enjoy this and would like you to continue to react to reformed zoomer.
@noahgaming88334 ай бұрын
The people who wrote the Bible were fallible men, therefore how do you know they’re lying? Who told you the Bible is true? Also, the Bible is a written tradition, it was passed down and copied for centuries, how do you think it was preserved? If you said it was preserved by the Holy Spirit; you’d be correct!! Your reward is an invitation to Christs one true church!
@legacyandlegend4 ай бұрын
@noahgaming8833 I agree with everything you said except Christ's one true church. How do you know it's the one true church? Again, how do you know they're not lying? I agree that the bible has been preserved by the Holy Spirit. I also agree that the catholic church gave us the bible. However, to say they have the ability to interpret it and have oral traditions not in scripture once again begs the question. How do you know they're not lying?
@noahgaming88334 ай бұрын
@@legacyandlegend well, just look at the historical data: Ignatius of Antioch “Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]). The Martyrdom of Polycarp “And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]). The Muratorian Canon “Besides these [letters of Paul] there is one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in affection and love, but nevertheless regarded as holy in the Catholic Church, in the ordering of churchly discipline. There is also one [letter] to the Laodiceans and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, in regard to the heresy of Marcion, and there are several others which cannot be received by the Church, for it is not suitable that gall be mixed with honey. The epistle of Jude, indeed, and the two ascribed to John are received by the Catholic Church (Muratorian fragment [A.D. 177]). Tertullian “Where was [the heretic] Marcion, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago-in the reign of Antonius for the most part-and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherius, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 30 [A.D. 200]). Cyprian of Carthage “You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishops; and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priest of God, believing that they are secretly in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and catholic, is not split or divided, but is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere to one another” (Letters 66[67]:8 [A.D. 253]). Council of Nicaea I “But those who say: ‘There was [a time] when he [the Son] was not,’ and ‘before he was born, he was not,’ and ‘because he was made from non-existing matter, he is either of another substance or essence,’ and those who call ‘God the Son of God changeable and mutable,’ these the Catholic Church anathematizes” (Appendix to the Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]). “Concerning those who call themselves Cathari [Novatians], that is, ‘the Clean,’ if at any time they come to the Catholic Church, it has been decided by the holy and great council that, provided they receive the imposition of hands, they remain among the clergy. However, because they are accepting and following the doctrines of the catholic and apostolic Church, it is fitting that they acknowledge this in writing before all; that is, both that they communicate with the twice married and with those who have lapsed during a persecution” (Canon 8). Cyril of Jerusalem “[The Church] is called catholic, then, because it extends over the whole world, from end to end of the earth, and because it teaches universally and infallibly each and every doctrine which must come to the knowledge of men, concerning things visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly, and because it brings every race of men into subjection to godliness, governors and governed, learned and unlearned, and because it universally treats and heals every class of sins, those committed with the soul and those with the body, and it possesses within itself every conceivable form of virtue, in deeds and in words and in the spiritual gifts of every description” (Catechetical Lectures 18:23 [A.D. 350]). “And if you ever are visiting in cities, do not inquire simply where the house of the Lord is-for the others, sects of the impious, attempt to call their dens ‘houses of the Lord’-nor ask merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the name peculiar to this holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God” (ibid., 18:26).
@noahgaming88334 ай бұрын
@@legacyandlegend there is also, unanimous agreement on the traditions of not only scripture, but the apostles: Papias “Papias [A.D. 120], who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the apostles from those who accompanied them, and he, moreover, asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly, he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their traditions [concerning Jesus]. . . . [There are] other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from tradition” (fragment in Eusebius, Church History 3:39 [A.D. 312]). Hegesippus “At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apollinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and, finally, Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from tradition” (fragment in Eusebius, Church History 4:21). Irenaeus “As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same” (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]). “That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?” (ibid., 3:4:1). “It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times-men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about. “But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. “With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree-that is, all the faithful in the whole world-and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3:3:1-2). Clement of Alexandria “Well, they preserving the tradition of the blessed doctrine derived directly from the holy apostles, Peter, James, John, and Paul, the sons receiving it from the father (but few were like the fathers), came by God’s will to us also to deposit those ancestral and apostolic seeds. And well I know that they will exult; I do not mean delighted with this tribute, but solely on account of the preservation of the truth, according as they delivered it. For such a sketch as this, will, I think, be agreeable to a soul desirous of preserving from loss the blessed tradition” (Miscellanies 1:1 [A.D. 208]). Origen “Although there are many who believe that they themselves hold to the teachings of Christ, there are yet some among them who think differently from their predecessors. The teaching of the Church has indeed been handed down through an order of succession from the apostles and remains in the churches even to the present time. That alone is to be believed as the truth which is in no way at variance with ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition” (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:2 [A.D. 225]).
@legacyandlegend4 ай бұрын
@noahgaming8833 I agree that early church father writings should be valued, but at the end of the day, they aren't scripture. My question to you is, why weren't the early church father writings put in the bible? If they were meant to be binding, shouldn't they be in the bible with the rest of the infallable writings? Why didn't the Holy Spirit guide His church to do that knowing that 1500 years after Christ died, the protestant reformation would happen, and the only thing that they would consider binding is the bible?
@AspiringSaint4 ай бұрын
It’s very unfortunate that you’re evidently not playing in concurrence with your talking. You don’t have to lie!
@thecatechumen4 ай бұрын
1v1 me bro 😎
@AspiringSaint4 ай бұрын
@@thecatechumen TIME AND PLACE
@EPH-re2xj4 ай бұрын
Yeah. Lord we recommended that the Bible alone is not good enough. Really?
@Marcel----4 ай бұрын
Yes, because anyone can fall into heresy
@brittoncain50904 ай бұрын
If it was, why good Jesus focus so heavily on creating a Church?
@EPH-re2xj4 ай бұрын
@@brittoncain5090who was Jesus’ earthly ministry to? After answering that and studying God’s word I hope more folks learn how to understand what church is referenced in the gospels. No where outside of Paul’s epistles can we find the one true church referenced …. That is the church the body of Christ. May God bless all
@brittoncain50904 ай бұрын
@@EPH-re2xj You could also just explain your beliefs.
@EPH-re2xj4 ай бұрын
@@brittoncain5090 read above and answer the first question using Jesus’ own words and we can begin there. May God bless you all