that’s a good inference

@@vincentandujar4216until saw 11 ? Lol😂

Hahah, I have a habit of saying game over now anytime I close a sliding door 😆

Yeah but you should NEVER say “I speak for the dead”

​@@HorrorSauce😂😂😂 with the theme music 🎶

@@ama0231**cough** Jigsaw

John never killed anyone. Besides that, the people he let his play his games deserve it.

@@robbertag808 Transgressions that can land you in a trap include being a drug addict, being depressed, doing your job too well, grieving the loss of a murdered child (which Kramer did himself, twice), not testifying in court, making any number of honest mistakes, being a photographer, and simply being female and connected to a guy that _arguably_ deserves it (sometimes he doesn't). The narrative of previous films might try to convince you that Jigsaw is ultimately a good guy that wants to rehabilitate people, but in the absence of competent writing it's up to audiences to look at the text itself and see if certain messages are properly conveyed, or if it's the opposite. TLDR: Not only would Kramer _hypothetically_ put kids through his traps that irreperably damage them, he's _already_ canonically done so at least three separate times. I have no doubt in my mind that if John Kramer was a real person, he would put a bullied or neurodivergent child in a trap for taking antidepressants or having made an attempt on their life.

@robbertag808 of course he did. He intentionally drugged his victims, kidnapped them, strapped death traps to them with the intention of causing potentially fatal harm, and forced them to harm themselves if they wanted to escape what he put them into. You don't have to physically use your hands to murder someone. And not all deserved it. I listed several victims who didn't have that coming, but got it anyway, including children. Regardless, he was never in a position to be judging anyone anyways. He doesn't get to decide who is right and wrong. He's an interesting character and all, but I still know he's a serial killer as much as he seems to not believe he is.

The films are self aware, which is a good thing. Cecelia does a great job highlighting how stupid the whole premise of Johns vision is, and his cult, only made worse when his apprentices go rogue with inescapable traps. She is an anti-villain, although she is evil she is also fighting evil.

@@robbertag808 tell that to Joyce

Yes! Let the debate begin haha, we need to see her finally get what she deserves!! And in a show stopping way!

I can imagine a scenario where it's revealed she became an accomplice (yes because these happen all the time in Saw movies XD) and doesn't like her position. Having lost and feeling bitter over losing in Saw X and having John pull the strings. After the events of Saw 7, she gets wind of Hoffman's attempts to escape the life and destroy all evidence pointing him to be an accomplice. Cecilia takes note (from Gordon who informed her) and frees Hoffman from the old room, to exact revenge against John for not only having her lose, but to also get the last laugh against him. She frees Hoffman and the two attempt to kill Dr Gordon and Logan, the two remaining accomplices who truly follow John ad his ideals, ultimately freeing each other from the bonds that held them in place by John in the first place.

​@@johnnycahill3363that's like amazing

@@HorrorSauce The rack maybe? I think John does say its one of his favourites.

@@johnnycahill3363 cant wait till 12 for her, have to strike while the irons hot. She is pure evil, is not afraid of Jigsaw and makes it known that she thinks she is better than him. 11 will take place between 2-3 and we will see Hoffman take the reigns against her as she tries to come for John and his apprentices (theory). Hoffman is in and renovates the gas house from 2, we know this, so it is feasible that this will be a returned to area for shenanigans to take place.

You have my approval. This sounds amazing for Saw 11. I really want to see Hoffman in action again. Seeing his way of testing people with the chaotic traps once again and his smart tactics. They could easily make this happen with this being the “end” of Tobin Bell’s John Kramer and this new Saw 11 being focused on Hoffman and seeing the revenge trap on Cecilia we all want to see.

There has to be a bigger story behind Amanda's "unbeatable" traps. Troy's trap in Saw 3, there is no proof she was behind that trap with the door being welded shut. She was there at Kerry's trap, but there may be a backstory behind that. Detective Matthews failed his test and got trapped in the bathroom, but Amanda still gave him a chance to live by giving him a flashlight, did not remove the Saw from the back wall or the toilet cover. Detective Matthews still had a chance to survive and he did until the 4th one. Dr. Lynn Denlon was all on Hoffman blackmailing Amanda to kill her. I had a theory that maybe there was a love triangle happening between Amanda, Eric Matthews and Detective Kerry. Maybe, just maybe, Daniel Matthews is Amanda's child. But Amanda got into drugs and ended up being divorced by Eric. During the time they were together, Kerry and Eric had an affair to then Amanda eventually found out about it and set Kerry up in that impossible trap. I know it is not right, but there has to be a reason why she acted hostile towards Kerry.

@@bobcharlie1666 True, she technically only killed Adam, by throwing his key carelessly. Kerry was implied to be a stronger preson, so ether Hoffman helped Amanda, or he did it alone. And Lynn dying was more Jeff's fault, Amanda's shot seemingly wasn't fatal so she could've survived if Jeff called an ambulance

@@2000fiona Forgot to mention Adam. Even though she put the key in the bathtub, Adam still had other ways to escape. Adam could have used the saw to cut off his leg. He also could have used the gun when he had it to shoot the chain off. He also had the toilet cover to break his foot like Eric Matthews. Since Adam had no intention of freeing himself, Amanda did him a favour and freed him. It's not the best option, but Adam was given the chance to survive multiple times. You are 100% correct about Kerry though and when Straham was questioning on who was helping Jigsaw, Hoffman was very defensive about it and tried to make "suggestions" as to how Kerry was trapped. Hoffman was very sus after the classroom chain trap as well when he said "all he had to do was remove himself from each of the chains" which shouts GUILTY. Hoffman most likely did all of those impossible traps, including the flammable jelly trap in Saw 1 for Mark as there was a hole in the wall to spy, which is all too familiar in Saw 5 with Seth Baxters trap. Hoffman did everything in his power to frame Amanda and make her fail in the eye's of John Kramer. Also, we have seen in Saws 5, 6 and 7 that Hoffman will kill for no reason. I really hope in the next couple of entries they go more into a backstory of Hoffman and Amanda.

that's actually a good point..... I reckon Cecilia will be the turning point for Amanda.... She said "that lady doctor doesn't deserve to live" so I reckon she'll go back and kill her.. or put her in an unbeatable trap without John knowing

@@kingjezza6567 Amanda "taking care" of Cecelia would be cool. But even if she doesn't, I definitely believe she played a major part in Amanda becoming so misanthropic and cynical as we saw her in 3 (tho, if Amanda doesn't do it then I hope some other apprentice does it. It would be very satisfying to see it).

After the timer hit 0. Then we see the gas stop pouring from a room that is RED and not GREEN like the one Cecilia's in, and you don't hear any doors open. You hear just the track playing and her looking out through the hole and screaming for John. I don't know where you heard the "door open" sound but there ain't any. Go rewatch this scene The loud metallic drop is in the track iself that's playing over this scene. It's not a lock mechanism or anything

@@Ryomeanie You really think one of the most hated villains in the franchise will have an off screen death?

@@2000fiona No, not at all. I do believe that Amanda will finish her off. That she returns to the place and with a smile on her face ends the life of the person that made her believe "People can't change".

Yes! Amanda was also tested twice.

3 times

Like pull a Eric Matthews on her. Bring her back after keeping her Personer for a long time to help with a big game... I hope she doesn't turn out to be an apprentice tho. Match the same evil as Hoffman tho...

@@coleeg69 Hoffman is not as evil as Cecilia. He was seeking revenge for a dead loved one that turned out to be an obsession. Cecilia is the epitome of evil. She only cared about herself, nothing else so it's impossible for her to be an apprentice. She's not someone who can be trusted at all.

he won't kill a trap winner, the door unlocks after the timer ends and 1 of the 2 people in the trap survives.

She knew once she was kidnapped and started seeing the games. She's an intelligent character and had heard about the Jigsaw victims from Saw 1 and maybe even games we haven't been shown yet.

@@anotherhealingjourneybegins okay. That I can stomach. But the idea that she knew pre surgery was silly. Idk why I thought that

@@tylersteak I actually thought she knew that too, lmao. I was like wow she IS smart. But upon additional viewings, I think it's more likely she found out when things started to hit the fan.

There is a theory that she knew the whole time and wanted Jigsaw to take out the other scammers to keep more money. Remember her boyfriend turned up with a gun and extreme caution, he would only do that if he knew he was walking into a bad situation. She does say in Saw X near the end that John was helping her "Tie up loose ends", that could of been the plan all along or just something she thought of as events unfolded. They do have interesting exchanges at the start of the film, that were played off as cute jokes/easter eggs where she could of had suspicion. Its all just a theory and pretty far-fetched as Jigsaw was quite underground at this point. I personally believe she figured it out after she was captured and remembered a few news articles with similar events and it made her realise.

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@anotherhealingjourneybeginsMaybe only knowing jigsaw by the puppet perhaps & not his actual face? I mean he did use it for disguise after all. Its possible she found out once she seen the puppet that he was the real Jigsaw, it would make sense because he wasn’t really known as John yet and billy the puppet didn’t make his cameo until the beginning of mateo’s trap.

Best comment here because it could go that way!

Terrible.

I prefer the other way around

Cecilia would stomp Amanda is a heartbeat, though. I feel like the smartest thing to do would be for Cecilia to go into hiding after this. But she will probably want revenge.

@@anotherhealingjourneybegins she's psycho enough to get revenge, this'll sound stupid but there's a possibility that Cecilia can manipulate Hoffman because Hoffman never wanted to be apart of what Jigsaw was doing but Hoffman was smart enough to copy and learn from Jigsaw, thus creating the pendulum trap. Cecilia could find out about Amanda about killing Jigsaws unborn and Hoffman can utilize that info from her to be able to begin his blackmailing of Amanda thus causing the domino effect of Amanda and Jigsaw both dying. Again it's outlandish but Hoffman was doing things for Jigsaw for free basically, so in Saw 7 you see Hoffman with a lot of money in his bag, who's money is that?... Jigsaws money. The money that Cecilia took for the scam she played.

@@anotherhealingjourneybegins I think Cecilia escapes because of Hoffman, I can see a scenario where Amanda does in fact go back to kill her herself only to see that she got away... Who helps with her escape? Hoffman. I'm spitballing of course

@TC-ex5fr I like this concept! I definitely feel Cecilia is THE threat of the Saw franchise to John and his team. I could see her being the one who frees Hoffman from the bathroom even. Or! Maybe she was the one who leaked his identity to the authorities back in Saw II era. We don't really know for sure when they go in his warehouse if they are aware of his identity or not. I think it's possible she could've been the one to do it! She has so much potential as a complex character, I just hope they don't waste it on a random trap death in the future. She could be SO much more.

I have to retract the theory that I had in regards to the money and Hoffman from Saw 7 because I'm an idiot due to the fact that I completely forgot that jigsaw gave Carlos the money, it's possible that Hoffman could have tried to find the money with Cecilia someway somehow two-faced person that he became right thereafter causing the domino effect of Amanda and jigsaw both dying

In a future film, Cecilia could be Hoffman's ticket to escaping the room. With your idea, this would reveal a hidden collaboration between the two and allowing her to know to find him and both exact revenge against John by killing Dr Gordon and Logan. Since they follow him more so than Hoffman.

She can make it out that room. Remember, she put something down her shirt in the beginning of the movie 👊

Here is the plot leaks for the final 3 Saw films! ... Saw 12! Detective Hoffman escapes the bathroom following the events of Saw 3D using tools hidden behind the bathroom pipes. Hoffman pursues Lawrence Gordon (addressing several unanswered questions from Saw 3D) to discover the 'Cult Of Jigsaw’. Hoffman obtains a list of Jigsaw Survivor Group members from Bobby Dagan and tosses him off a bridge. Hoffman kills Brad and Ryan who helped Lawrence kidnap him in Saw 3D. Hoffman blows up the Jigsaw Survivor Group building with everyone inside. Hoffman vows to find Lawrence. Twist: Lawrence gets the upper hand on Hoffman when Adam is revealed as Amanda’s secret apprentice. It's revealed that Adam was saved by Amanda/Gordon after Saw 1 (the corpse chained in the bathroom is another trap victim). Adam develops a relationship with Amanda similar to Amanda's relationship with John. Adam is the one who has been taking photos throughout the series, and provides information to Amanda in Saw 2 and Saw 3. Amanda messages Adam after receiving the Hoffman blackmail letter in Saw 3. Adam asks Lawrence to help solve the Hoffman problem (after Saw 4), hence why Lawrence sends Hoffman the "I know who you are' letter in Saw 5. Final Scene: Lawrence executes Hoffman in response to the murder of Jill Tuck with Adam delivering the final 'game over'. ... Saw 13! Logan Nelson is targeted by the Cult Of Jigsaw after relocating John’s corpse in Jigsaw (Saw 8). Logan is forced to play a game under threat of having his lies about Detective Halloran exposed. Logan goes to Eleanor for help (as Keith Hunt closes in on Logan) and confesses what he did to Detective Halloran/John’s corpse. Eleanor vows to help Logan stop the Cult Of Jigsaw, however, is killed in a Jigsaw Trap a short time later. Logan, similar to a deceased Hoffman, goes on a rampage (taking out several cult members) before killing Adam and Lawrence (for good). Twist: A dying Lawrence reveals that he has been running games ever since Saw 1, and confirms Logan is not the first apprentice. Lawrence dies as a final game starts. Logan is introduced to the true Cult Leader (a masked figure). Logan fails his final test after lying about John’s corpse and refuses to confess his crimes to the world. Logan kills the masked figure only to discover an innocent Keith Hunt underneath the mask. Twist: Eleanor betrays Logan. It is revealed Eleanor is the Cult Leader who designs/builds traps for the Cult Of Jigsaw. Eleanor is revealed as the first apprentice (hence why she has John's blueprints), and the one keeping a close eye on Logan over the years. It is revealed Lawrence helped Eleanor at the end of Jigsaw (Saw 8) and that Lawrence owns the black vehicle referenced in Spiral (Saw 9). Logan turns to see the entire Cult Of Jigsaw (dozens of pig mask figures recruited by Eleanor) who rush him (similar to the end of Paranormal Activity 4). Final Scene: Logan wakes up in John’s coffin with 'Game Over' spray painted on the lid, and a voice recording (of his confession to Eleanor) playing at his feet. … Spiral 2 (Saw 14)! Zeke pursues the Cult Of Jigsaw after Logan’s body is discovered (Logan leaves a message scratched into the coffin lid + Eleanor’s name). After several warnings, Zeke ends up in a trap, however, is saved by William. William reveals he is being targeted by the Cult Of Jigsaw after he tainted John’s legacy in Spiral (Saw 9). Zeke wants to kill William but can’t because William attaches explosives to both their wrists (if William dies, Zeke dies). William promises to let Zeke go if he helps him track down the remaining cult members (to arrest them). Zeke reluctantly joins forces with William. Zeke and William soon discover that survivors from previous Jigsaw traps (non-cult members) are being executed in inescapable traps (similar to Amanda’s traps in Saw 3) which contradicts the cult's philosophy. Showdown Scene! Eleanor captures Zeke and places William in a trap. William (thinking he will die) disarms the wrist bomb as an apology to Zeke. William confirms he always wanted Zeke as a partner. Zeke escapes and saves William. Eleanor returns to the Cult Of Jigsaw, who gather around the Jigsaw Shrine (John’s body). Eleanor confirms a cop (Zeke) knows who she is, and they need to relocate the Jigsaw Shrine. Unknown enemies seal the room shut and fill it with gas, killing everyone, including Eleanor, who almost escapes. Zeke and William discover there's a Mystery Killer who executed the Cult Of Jigsaw. William tells Zeke he knows who the Mystery Killer is (A woman who goes by the name Legacy). Zeke tells William if he wants forgiveness, he needs to stop Legacy. Zeke and William hunt down Legacy, eliminating her entire team. However, Legacy gets the upper hand. Twist: A disfigured Cecilia reveals herself as the Mystery Killer. Cecilia confirms she escaped the gas chamber from Saw X (with Diego’s help) and murdered Diego. Cecilia confirms she stole her father’s fortune and murdered her father. Cecilia confirms she vowed to destroy John’s legacy by murdering Jigsaw Survivors in inescapable traps (like the one she was left in). Twist: Cecilia thanks William for distracting Zeke. William reveals that he was Cecilia’s associate for years. Williams confirms Cecilia convinced him to murder police in the name of Jigsaw (Cecilia's team helped William build death traps in Spiral/Saw 9 including Marcus Banks' Test and The Subway Test). William confirms he does not work with Cecelia anymore. Cecilia confirms how much she hates loose ends. Cecilia shoots William before strapping a bomb to William and Zeke’s wrist. Cecilia leaves Zeke to die as William bleeds out. Cecilia, having dispatched the Cult Of Jigsaw, and Jigsaw Survivors, walks away from Saw 14 as the sole survivor (similar to Hoffman in Saw 5). Mid-Credit Scene: Cecilia lives in a beautiful mansion. She thanks her deceased father for her fortune, and John for purpose. Cecilia dedicates her life to corrupting John's legacy by placing innocent people in Jigsaw traps. Post-Credit Scene: A mystery intruder appears in Cecilia’s mansion and aims a gun at Cecilia. Cecilia asks, "Who are you?" Final Twist: Fisk (who was fired from his job long ago) shoots Cecilia in the throat having tracked the Jigsaw murders since Saw 1. Fisk has been obsessed with Jigsaw since Detective Steven Sing was killed in Saw 1. Fisk leaves Cecilia alone in a pool of blood and money to end Saw forever.

I agree Valentina's trap should have been for Cecilia

Thank you! Yes! 😍

My guess is she’d go to her father. She made it seem like he’s a rich and powerful man.

We can see it now!!

100%

I think we’re gonna see some amazing things from her in the next Saw!!

Hoffman is trapped in the bathroom so it is more likely that Cecilia is the one who saves him. Gordan and the 2 boys vs Hoff and Cecilia.

She will definitely be back!!

One reason Adam got left there is cause he tried to shoot Jigsaw. But this time she tried to kill Jigsaw and a kid. So I don’t think he has any mercy for her

The other films made that very clear. Which ones have you seen so far?

Adam is alive saw 3 death scene was just a dream sequence

​@abeeraal-asad9431 his corspe in shown in Saw II, witnessed by Daniel and Amanda. Eric Mathews sees his corspe in Saw III, his body is seen in Saw VII and even there in the Saw X post credit scene. How would anyone still think he was still alive, lol

at least she's not a hypocrite unlike John's cult with his twisted moral code

I think in the future saw movies I’d like to see Amanda hold a game where everyone who betrayed or cheated John shows up Cecilia & Hoffman I’d like to see a group of people that are competent and know what they’re doing minute that buzzer goes off their throwing their shirt or coat off wrapping it around their arms to army crawl through glass using the medical expertise to work faster then others that sorta deal