Ok, no shills allowed!

I hope they do also. Stephen Murphy interviewed Jerry on that topic not long ago, on his excellent "Mormonism with the Murph" channel.

but forgets that both joseph smith (the prophet, and translator) and oliver cowdery said it happen in the heartland, not in meso america. they trump everyone, period.

That is just what he wants you to do. 🤑

I've asked Jerry to have the WR guys add a link for that - his books can be dowloaded for free - its the bmslr site

The eclipse you are referring to is the same one that I am referring to, however the date you indicate as 5 BC is not correct as BC is an indication of the Gregorian calendar. The date that you are seeing in the literature for the eclipse is given in the astrological Julian date, which is what the NASA reference you are probably using shows (April 18, -0005, I also show the astronomical Julian date in my book on page 56), when converting from the astrological Julian calendar it is April 16, 6 BC on the Gregorian calendar. Stellarium also uses the Julian calendar system. The reason that the Julian and Gregorian are one year different is because the Gregorian calendar doesn't have a zero date (goes from 1BC to 1 AD) while the astronomical Julian calendar has a 0 year. Hope that is helpful. It is a bit confusing to be sure.

I had no idea that putting something in between asterisks in the KZfaq comments makes it bold until now 😂

​@@chansebunker7373now see what underscores do! :)😊

Tell me another story grandpa about the golden plates and buried treasure and seer stones!

@@kevinedward4195 Yep, you got it. And it was oh so glorious!

@@wes2176 Better make sure Joseph was telling the truth before you jump into eternity. Check your parachute, take some time away, read the Gospel of John at face value, and then ask THAT Jesus to remove any lie from your life.

@@kevinedward4195 I'm a jumpin, Sugar! Celestial glory here I come!

@6 Check. Your. Parachute. Don't be a fool. Joseph packed it. Get one that Jesus alone packed.

Ask and ye shall receive, knock, and it shall be recorded and released unto thee.

@@WARDRADIO Let’s gooooooo

​@@WARDRADIOWhy don't you Mormons ever interview Hebrew Israelites,

@@james8996 who do you recommend?

@@shoup_group Me, Because I'm a Hebrew Israelite by blood, I Can disprove All the lies the Mormon church is Teaching about my Ancestors

I didn't explain that well in the podcast. Be10 (an isotope of beryllium) and Cl36 (an isotope of chlorine). These are formed in the atmosphere as a result of interaction of solar particles, and can then be deposited onto polar ice. The CME event in 775 AD was corroborated with a change in the Be10, Cl36, and the carbon 14 data. The Carrington Event did not show this correlation however. As I mentioned, in order to detect any difference caused be a CME you have to have data for each year. For the year in question, 6 BC, I was only able to find an average over several years, so could not tell if there was any fluctuation in 6 BC. Hope that answers your question.

All the data that we have on the Baja Peninsula volcanoes is that all of the eruptions are much earlier than Book of Mormon times. Of course there is always the possibility of new data. As far as vapor, the descriptions in the BOM are "thick darkness", they could "feel the vapor of darkness", "mists of darkness" and the most telling perhaps is that "they were overpowered by the vapor of smoke and of darkness." So the best fit here would be ash versus water vapor. Also volcanoes during eruption emit all kinds of poisonous gases with the ash as well, so it may be they were trying to describe both. Of course, the description likely by Nephi3 would obviously be based on reporting from various areas, some time period after the destruction.

@@jerrygrover8992I've always thought Baja was the most likely fit because it fits perfectly with the "narrow neck of land". It also used to have vast bodies of water there that don't exist today. Here are a few volcanoes I've found in the Baja area from a Smithsonian list on Google Earth that have unknown eruption dates: Coronado, Isla San Luis, and Guadalupe. Salton Buttes in Southern Califonia is a lava dome that the Smithsonian claims erupted precisely 2000 years ago. Not sure if any of these fit. Also, is it more common with some volcanoes to not know the eruption dates? Because a lot of volcanoes in this area seem to have sparse data. Seems the Mesoamerican volcanoes have more data.

Actually, the main proponents of the Baja location acknowledge there is not volcanic activity there, and propose various "atmospheric disturbances" to account for the 3rd Nephi event. So I think most serious researchers have found that volcanism is not present there in the proper time frame. Pesonally, I think the biggest problem with the Baja model (apart from geology) at this point is any evidence of significant populations (especially in the correct time frames) and anything that would be considered a city. Along with the other cultural problems like no writing, no cement, identification of the River Sidon and specific cities etc. The proponents of Baja have what I consider to have developed information approaching an actual "model" so I give them credit for that.@@joshradson2649

@@jerrygrover8992Thanks for your replies. I'm not sure why they acknowledge this when the area isn't studied very thoroughly. Plus there are confirmed eruptions further North. I suppose the area does have some problems for consideration. You did mention cities. I was just watching a youtube video the other day where someone made the claim that San Francisco supposedly was a large city before the 49er miners came. Interesting if true. Also, supposedly on early maps California itself was considered an island because supposedly half of the Central Valley was covered in freshwater lakes. It was supposedly the largest freshwater lake West of the Mississippi. Could this be the Lake Ripliancum mentioned in the Book of Ether? I just mention this because if Heartland is going to be a serious model like Mesoamerica, perhaps the starting location was on the West coast. A West coast boat landing in many ways makes more sense than an East coast one.

I messaged Jerry earlier today, and he sent me this: This is from the website: ABARIM Publications Discover the meanings of thousands of Biblical names in Abarim Publications' Biblical Name Vault: Aaron The name Aaron is not a regular Hebrew word and that's possibly because it originated elsewhere (probably Egypt). But since most names in the Bible mean something and foreign names often were transliterated into Hebrew in such a way that they began to mean something in Hebrew, it had a few possible meanings in Hebrew. One derivation is: הרה The verb הרה (hera) means to be or become pregnant (Genesis 16:4, Exodus 2:2, Isaiah 26:18). An association with the previous noun is obvious, although not because the stomach of a pregnant woman resembles a mountain. The Bible depicts nations as individual women even more than as mountains; the words אמה ('umma), meaning people and אם ('em), meaning mother are closely related. A pregnant woman is to her husband what a conceiving nation is to its deity. This verb's derivations are: The adjective הרה (hara), meaning pregnant (Genesis 38:24, Isaiah 7:14). The adjective הריה (hariya), also meaning pregnant (Hosea 14:1 only). The masculine noun הריון (herayon), meaning conception of pregnancy (Hosea 9:11, Ruth 4:13). אור The verb אור ('or) means to be light or to give light; shine. The Bible uses this verb in all the expectable ways (sunlight, daylight etcetera) but often also metaphorically. Many Biblical light-metaphors have been incorporated into our own language, such as the light of understanding or wisdom. Even a lit-up face comes from the Bible (Job 29:24, Numbers 6:25, Ecclesiastes 8:1). One of this verb's derivatives is: The masculine noun אור ('ur), meaning flame (Isaiah 50:11, Ezekiel 5:2). It is also possible that there are some additional Hebrew correlations to the high king Aaron in the Book of Mormon, which would have provided some additional meanings to the name from the Nephite perspective including: רנן The verb רנן (ranan) means to produce a ringing cry of distress or "to introduce a declaration" (Mormon 3:4) The noun ארון ('aron) which can mean coffin which although not a preferred correlation might also be possible given the nature of the slaughter of the Nephites by Aaron. - end of article on web site From Jerry Grover: In any event, "conception" or "conceived" and "flame" is a reasonable etymology that reflects the Mayan name "Born of Fire". Kind of interesting that in the destruction of Nephites by Aaron that "their towns, and villages, and cities were burned with fire (Mormon 5:5) so this may be another meaning of Aaron's name unique to the Nephites. It must be remembered that many BOM names may have multiple pun meanings in Hebrew, so people that look for just one etymology are not going to understand the full meaning of the Book of Mormon text. Many of the names also have etymological meanings in Egyptian and what I call constructed Sumerian in addition to Hebrew.

Jerry sent me a detailed reply but I'm having trouble adding it here because youtube keeps deleting it after I add it.. So I'll just add the description of the website here and you can search for it on google: ABARIM Publications Discover the meanings of thousands of Biblical names in Abarim Publications' Biblical Name Vault: Aaron You can look it up there with a google search. Just select browse Biblical names A-Z and select male names. Aaron is the first on the list. There are many possible interpretations of the name Aaron, as you will see when you click on all the different dictionary links there.

Jerry sent me the info.. I've asked him to ask the WR team to add the info from their end as I cannot add the link here.. It's pretty cool :)

I messaged Jerry earlier today, and he sent me this: This is from the website: ABARIM Publications Discover the meanings of thousands of Biblical names in Abarim Publications' Biblical Name Vault: Aaron The name Aaron is not a regular Hebrew word and that's possibly because it originated elsewhere (probably Egypt). But since most names in the Bible mean something and foreign names often were transliterated into Hebrew in such a way that they began to mean something in Hebrew, it had a few possible meanings in Hebrew. One derivation is: הרה The verb הרה (hera) means to be or become pregnant (Genesis 16:4, Exodus 2:2, Isaiah 26:18). An association with the previous noun is obvious, although not because the stomach of a pregnant woman resembles a mountain. The Bible depicts nations as individual women even more than as mountains; the words אמה ('umma), meaning people and אם ('em), meaning mother are closely related. A pregnant woman is to her husband what a conceiving nation is to its deity. This verb's derivations are: The adjective הרה (hara), meaning pregnant (Genesis 38:24, Isaiah 7:14). The adjective הריה (hariya), also meaning pregnant (Hosea 14:1 only). The masculine noun הריון (herayon), meaning conception of pregnancy (Hosea 9:11, Ruth 4:13). אור The verb אור ('or) means to be light or to give light; shine. The Bible uses this verb in all the expectable ways (sunlight, daylight etcetera) but often also metaphorically. Many Biblical light-metaphors have been incorporated into our own language, such as the light of understanding or wisdom. Even a lit-up face comes from the Bible (Job 29:24, Numbers 6:25, Ecclesiastes 8:1). One of this verb's derivatives is: The masculine noun אור ('ur), meaning flame (Isaiah 50:11, Ezekiel 5:2). It is also possible that there are some additional Hebrew correlations to the high king Aaron in the Book of Mormon, which would have provided some additional meanings to the name from the Nephite perspective including: רנן The verb רנן (ranan) means to produce a ringing cry of distress or "to introduce a declaration" (Mormon 3:4) The noun ארון ('aron) which can mean coffin which although not a preferred correlation might also be possible given the nature of the slaughter of the Nephites by Aaron. - end of article on web site From Jerry Grover: In any event, "conception" or "conceived" and "flame" is a reasonable etymology that reflects the Mayan name "Born of Fire". Kind of interesting that in the destruction of Nephites by Aaron that "their towns, and villages, and cities were burned with fire (Mormon 5:5) so this may be another meaning of Aaron's name unique to the Nephites. It must be remembered that many BOM names may have multiple pun meanings in Hebrew, so people that look for just one etymology are not going to understand the full meaning of the Book of Mormon text. Many of the names also have etymological meanings in Egyptian and what I call constructed Sumerian in addition to Hebrew.

I messaged Jerry earlier today, and he sent me this: This is from the website: ABARIM Publications Discover the meanings of thousands of Biblical names in Abarim Publications' Biblical Name Vault: Aaron You can look it up there with a google search. Just select browse Biblical names A-Z and select male names. Aaron is the first on the list. There are many possible interpretations of the name Aaron, as you will see when you click on all the different dictionary links there. Jerry also sent me this, which includes excerpts from the above article: The name Aaron is not a regular Hebrew word and that's possibly because it originated elsewhere (probably Egypt). But since most names in the Bible mean something and foreign names often were transliterated into Hebrew in such a way that they began to mean something in Hebrew, it had a few possible meanings in Hebrew. One derivation is: The verb (hera) means to be or become pregnant (Genesis 16:4, Exodus 2:2, Isaiah 26:18). An association with the previous noun is obvious, although not because the stomach of a pregnant woman resembles a mountain. The Bible depicts nations as individual women even more than as mountains; the words ('umma), meaning people and ('em), meaning mother are closely related. A pregnant woman is to her husband what a conceiving nation is to its deity. This verb's derivations are: The adjective (hara), meaning pregnant (Genesis 38:24, Isaiah 7:14). The adjective (hariya), also meaning pregnant (Hosea 14:1 only). The masculine noun (herayon), meaning conception of pregnancy (Hosea 9:11, Ruth 4:13). The verb ('or) means to be light or to give light; shine. The Bible uses this verb in all the expectable ways (sunlight, daylight etcetera) but often also metaphorically. Many Biblical light-metaphors have been incorporated into our own language, such as the light of understanding or wisdom. Even a lit-up face comes from the Bible (Job 29:24, Numbers 6:25, Ecclesiastes 8:1). One of this verb's derivatives is: The masculine noun ('ur), meaning flame (Isaiah 50:11, Ezekiel 5:2). It is also possible that there are some additional Hebrew correlations to the high king Aaron in the Book of Mormon, which would have provided some additional meanings to the name from the Nephite perspective including: The verb (ranan) means to produce a ringing cry of distress or "to introduce a declaration" (Mormon 3:4) The noun ('aron) which can mean coffin which although not a preferred correlation might also be possible given the nature of the slaughter of the Nephites by Aaron. In any event, "conception" or "conceived" and "flame" is a reasonable etymology that reflects the Mayan name "Born of Fire". Kind of interesting that in the destruction of Nephites by Aaron that "their towns, and villages, and cities were burned with fire (Mormon 5:5) so this may be another meaning of Aaron's name unique to the Nephites. It must be remembered that many BOM names may have multiple pun meanings in Hebrew, so people that look for just one etymology are not going to understand the full meaning of the Book of Mormon text. Many of the names also have etymological meanings in Egyptian and what I call constructed Sumerian in addition to Hebrew.

Jerry sent me a detailed reply but I'm having trouble adding it here because youtube keeps deleting it after I add it.. So I'll just add the description of the website here and you can search for it on google: ABARIM Publications Discover the meanings of thousands of Biblical names in Abarim Publications' Biblical Name Vault: Aaron You can look it up there with a google search. Just select browse Biblical names A-Z and select male names. Aaron is the first on the list. There are many possible interpretations of the name Aaron, as you will see when you click on all the different dictionary links there.

Jerry sent me the info.. I've asked him to ask the WR team to add the info from their end as I cannot add the link here.. It's pretty cool :)

@@philandrews2860I have the same question. Can you point me to wherever that link is? Is it in Jerry’s book?

He probably means left for good.

Actually, the siege started, but then some months later (the exact date is not recorded) there was a break in the siege when the Egyptians sent an army up to help Israel. The Babylonians left to fight the Egyptians. After fighting the Egyptians and eventually winning, the Babylonians returned to place a siege on Jerusalem. During the break in the siege was when Jeremiah tried to leave Jerusalem but was taken and imprisoned. Nephi returned for the plates after the Babylonians had left. That is the reason, as indicated in the Book of Mormon, that Nephi mentions the imprisonment of Jeremiah, as he returned after it had happened. It also helps explain why Laman and Lemuel did not believe that Jerusalem was destroyed. Hope this clarifies the confusion.

​@@jerrygrover8992where is that Scripture in Jeremiah Where GOD told an Israelite family to leave for America where is that written in Jeremiah

It's the bmslr site. KZfaq will not let me paste it in a comment. I think the WR team will be adding it to the intro section. After watching the latest Jerry Grover interviews (Feb 29th) I see that the web site is given there also.

This podcast does not allow the posting of links, so do a search on - Book of Mormon Name etymological meaning of "born of fire" or "conceived in flame." and it will take you to my academia page where there is a paper that explains the etymology more in detail.

@@jerrygrover8992 `I did find all the info you have. I bought your books and wished you would’ve signed them. Now I went further and looked up “Aaron” in Egyptian and it said “warrior lion”. It’s almost as though that name fits in both languages. Am I thinking about this correctly?

Sorry about a signature in the book, I definitely sign if requested, as people’s preferences are different. Warrior lion is intriguing. Other than the names found in the Caractors Document I have really not looked for additional Egyptian meaning as I have kind of assumed others have looked. The online Book of Mormon Onomasticon discusses Egyptian possibilities for Aaron but doesn’t list what you have found. Might be worth a short little academic paper submitted to the Interpreter Journal or something! Interesting

Well, the problem one runs into with a Friday crucifixion from an LDS standpoing is that it is contrary to the BOM account of the time period in the tomb (3 full days). I did not propose the possibility of a Wednesday crucifixion, the source of this possibility is based on non-LDS Biblical scholarship. I apparently can't post links here, but if you do a search on Pallant Ramsundar crucifixion, his article should come up first where this topic is discussed in detail and discusses the item you raised. Thanks for the excellent question.

In my humble opinion, I believe ALL miracles are based on science, and we consider them miracles because it is a science we simply haven't learned, studied, practiced, or mastered yet.

@@DannyAGray I definitely believe God uses the forces of nature to create miracles. But not sure why we feel the need to scientifically justify those miracles. Great comment. Thank you.

@johnbaxter6494 if I could offer you a different perspective: maybe it's not that it's being justified, it's more that we are learning heaven - as Brad Wilcox put it - and those who are doing the work are sharing their findings with our whole class. Dude, I wish I had the time and expertise to come up with findings like this like they do! But when things like this are presented, I always take it to the Lord and see how it sits with my spirit. I always love when the spirit confirms topics like this and helps me feel like we are all moving closer to God. Just a thought, brother. Happy Monday to you and yours!

The Biblical stories are not proved by archaelogical evidence, but archaeology DOES prove a basis in reality for the Biblical history (ie they found ancient tablets that mention King David and the Israel wars). The BOM doesn't have a single conclusive artifact to back up even a small segment of BOM history.

NHM

6 BC have calendar the April was the first month of the year they called it Nissan.

Cardon has had cancer for awhile

Wow I didn’t know that! Love you Cardon god be with you brother!

I even got him to concede that there's a hole in his logic, and I screenshotted it to prove it 😎. And we're talking a guy who's whole X account is DEDICATED to atheism - it's in his name, it's in his bio, the whole deal

If that's not a W I don't know what is 😂

Actually he's back 🤦‍♀️

He evaluates it throughout several of his books

@@TrevorMiller754 but it actually happened in the heartland

I strongly favor the heartland model yet I'm open to information from the M2C side. I just don't see any evidence of the Nephites living among the Maya or Aztecs as a minority group or building great stone pyramids with steps.

@@TrevorMiller754 bottom line. joseph smith said it was heartland. oliver cowdry said it was heartland. both of them said that is where moroni said it was.

@@IntoAllTruth. bottom line. joseph smith said it was heartland. oliver cowdry said it was heartland. both of them said that is where moroni said it was.

I don’t think you can really debunk a personal experience someone claims to have gone through like that. Just depends on whether you believe it or not. There are many who have had visions that are almost the exact opposite, with the Latter Day Saints dwelling in heaven with God. So just depends on who you choose to believe.

@@chansebunker7373 I could ask why he never seen, other prophets. It’s just weird if he is honest. He said he was in Smiths house.

@@kylethedalek yes I’ve seen the video you’re referring to. It’s just one experience, and it may be legit. We know that there will be signs and wonders that deceive even the elect, so verifying with God is important. I know of some who have almost polar opposite experiences, and I wouldn’t throw that out just because someone I don’t know on KZfaq says they experienced something else. My advice if the video concerns you is to talk to God about it, no better source to clear things up.

Bad drugs.

How would it be any different than people who claim God called them to commit murder or drink the kool-aid as a group - so to speak? Tell me why you would trust that video and his word over, say, the idea that it was just his way of steering people away from the church? To me, considering all the enemies the church has, that seems far more logical.

@@dirkjensen969 I'll have you know, I personally examined the golden plates before we gave them back to Moroni, and I can verify that they are 100% real.

​@@dirkjensen969that was Joseph's job, and I only ever heard about the Urim and Thummim.

It seems that many Heartland folks really don't understand the details of the Mesoamerican theories at all. There are many details in these various theories that one cannot appreciate or fully understand without reading Sorenson's and Gardner's books, along with other books and articles written by other authors, such as Kirk Magleby. Whenever I hear the Heartlander proponents, even the leading proponents of that theory, describe the "Mesoamerican Model" they most often don't get the details correct at all and make very broad generalizations that are inaccurate or simply incorrect. For example: The "Mayans" were not the Nephites. The Nephites and Mulekites are thought to have been part of the Zoquean culture after they had blended together and became one people. This ancient culture was located predominantly in the lowlands of Chiapas, Mexico, with Zarahemla being in the central Chiapas depression. The site of Santa Rosa, in the central Chiapas depression of southern Mexico, which is now underwater from the Angostura Dam which was built in the 1970s, actually has many correspondences with the city of Zarahemla as described in the BofM text. These are all described in detail in Sorenson's and Gardner's books. Some of these correspondences can also be found in the wikipedia article if you search for 'Santa Rosa Mesoamerican Site' on google. The fact that the site dates pretty close to the times that Zarahemla existed, that it shows evidence of 2 different peoples living there at one time, that it shows evidence that it resisted outside cultural influence, all lend credence to it having similarities with the Zarahemla of the BofM. The Land of Nephi is thought to have been part of the ancient site of Kaminaljuyu, which is currently within Guatemala City, in the highlands around 5000 ft elevation. When the Nephites were there, they are thought to have participated in the Mayan culture, but when they left there to go down to Zarahemla, (the Chiapas central depression is at a much lower elevation, along the Grijalva River), they joined with the people of Zarahemla who were thought to have been part of the Zoquean culture, which was descended from the more ancient Olmec, who are thought to have been the culture that the Jaredites participated in. Santa Rosa (Zarahemla) is around 1700 ft elevation, give or take. The current Grijalva River is thought to have been the Sidon River in Sorenson's model. The ancient site of Santa Rosa had more modest temples than the ones built by post Book of Mormon peoples such as the Mayans and Aztecs, etc. The Lamanites are thought to have participated in the Mayan culture but the Nephites considered as a Lamanite any group that was fighting against the Nephites. Yes the Mayans were there before Lehi's group arrived, but that fits into the theory that the descendants of Laman and Lemuel and Ishmael's sons and their spouses intermixed with the Mayans and were assimilated into that culture, possibly keeping some Hebrew culture for a little while before becoming fully assimilated. The Nephites are postulated to have started out as a subset of the Mayan culture and then became a subset of the Zoquean culture after joining with the people of Zarahemla. There is strong evidence that that area (the Chiapas central depression) was heavily depopulated around the time of the Nephite abandonment of Zarahemla and also their extinction around 400 A.D. Gardner and Sorenson proposed the idea that the Teotihuacanos and the Mayans decimated the inhabitants of that region during that time period and there is strong evidence for that. He also equates the Teotihuacanos as supporting the Gadianton Robbers. Quite interesting to read about the sound mainstream archaeological data that they have found to back this up. Again, you won't hear about this except from reading the books or else watching their interviews.

@philandrews2860 is interesting, but it doesn't align with linguistics or archeology. One of my issues with Mesoamerica theorists is that many members don't look at the evidence, culture, religion, or linguistics. Yes, there are great civilization in Mesoamerica, but that doesn't make them Book of Mormon Jewish civilizations even if they date to the right time. In Mesoamerica, all roads lead to the Olmec even with the Zoquean: "This environmental diversity is the setting for the evolution of the Mixe-Zoquean language family, which dates back to the Olmec culture, whose language is believed to be the “most ancient attested member” of the language family (Campbell and Kaufman 1976; Justeson and Kaufman 1993, 1997; and Kaufman and Justeson 2004)" The Zoquen linguists best evidence stems from the Mixe-Zoquean (1000BCE) and from there the Olmecs. Where does Mesoamerican writing come from? Olmecs. Currently, they are trying to decipher the Epi-Olmec (date to the time of the Book of Mormon) writing that is the location Mesoamerican theorist have for the Land of Zarahemla They are using the Language of the Zoquean and Mayan to decipher the Epi-Olmec. Also, an Olmec Stella contains the same written dating system as the Mayan. The calendar system and the ball game come from the Olmecs. The religious beliefs in there God's and human sacrifice come from the Olmecs. Pyramids possibly come from the Olmecs. Even some of the Gods of the Olmecs seem similar to the gods at Teotihuacan and other empires. How can Teotihuacan be the largest empire in the Americas and be the Gadiantons? That does not make sense. The Gadiantons were a massive group mostly where amongst the Nephites and Lamanites in Secrete or the wilderness. How is one of the marvels of Mesoamerica and the one the sixth largest cities in the Ancient world equate with the Book of Mormon's Gadiantons. I can't see it. Besides Brigham Young said St George and Utah was the location of the Gadiantons.

I take anything Brigham Young said of that nature with a big grain of salt. He said a lot of pretty wild things and that sounds like one of them. Other than his teachings and sermons that are very basic to our core beliefs and doctrines, I really don’t consider many of his sayings as inspired but merely as his own outspoken opinions. Regarding the Gadianton Robbers’ possible association with Teotihuacan, I don’t see it is meaning that all of the Teotihuacanos were Gadiantons, but more along the lines of the Gadiantons being a subset of them, or even as a large group of hired trouble makers who were sent there to disrupt and weaken the Nephite government to make it easier to conquer them. Some of the hired thugs were also likely disaffected Nephites along with Mayans, in addition to Teotihuacanos. So I see it more of a thing that was instigated and supported by Teotihuacan, and then after they served their purpose, they came in force to take over the area in a cooperative effort with the Mayans from the south. Regarding the linguistics, religion, and archaeology that you mention by saying they ‘don’t align’. It’s not clear what you mean by that, but both Sorenson and Gardner give some pretty solid evidence from an archaeological, religious, and linguistic perspective that these scenarios that I outlined are plausible. I would encourage you to read their books if you haven’t already done so. Since all the immigrant groups (Jared’s, Lehi’s, and Mulek’s) were very small in number compared to the pre-existing native populations, finding direct evidence linguistically and archaeologically of their cultural and linguistic influence would be expected to be hard to come by, further complicated by the fact that we have just barely scratched the surface of all that can be found there, and the fact that so much was lost during the Columbian Exchange, both of perishable artifacts as well as populations. I see the Jaredites as having assimilated into whatever pre-existing Olmec culture was there. Since Mulek’s party encountered the remaining Jaredites, that would imply that they had Olmec contact, and, being small in number compared to the Olmec were likely assimilated into that culture and its descendant Mixe-Zoquean, which helps to explain how they had already lost intelligibility with the Nephites’ spoken language after such a short period of time from a linguistic standpoint. I don’t believe that all of the Jaredites were wiped out in their last civil war, but just their main civilization center, which would have been a subset of the larger Olmec culture. Of course these are all assumptions but they do make a plausible scenario that fits the Book of Mormon narrative. The narrative says that the descendants of Mulek's party (likely including numerous native Zoquean peoples who had joined them) were in Zarahemla when the Nephites arrived and then merged with them. Even though the Maya did adopt many cultural things, including the writing system, from the Olmec, the 2 languages were unrelated and unintelligible with each other. It is perhaps similar to how the ancient Akkadians of the Near East adopted many things from the more ancient Sumerians, with the respective languages being completely unrelated in origin.

@philandrews2860 This is a good theory, but I can't find any good evidence for Semitic people. The Nephites and Lamanites were Jews. Many Semitic people have kept their culture for thousands of years, such as Muslims, who had a Semitic culture but didn't understand until an Archeologist pointed it out. Native Americans in North America that passed down a ceremony from generation to generation that Isreali researchers noticed as a Hebrew ceremony that they had missing parts. The Native American ceremony helped fill in the missing part for the Isrealites. The absence of Semitic culture in Mesoamerica is a problem. There is a ten commandment written in ancient Hebrew on a large rock in New Mexico. Hebrew artifacts have been found in Tennessee, Ohio, and Illinois. Several Native Americans have a history that there was a great battle in New York or a battle with the moundbuilders near the Great Lakes. The evidence I'm talking about is oral histories, Semitic artifacts, linguistics, and religion. The Cherokee call them selfs Aniyvwiya or people of yahweh (God). Ani in Hebrew is people. When Native Americans sing and dance, they sing YAhaaa weh (yahweh). If there is any evidence like this in Mesoamerica, then I believe you're on to something.

@m I've read about those artifacts and the various Native American traditions, and know that the Heartland folks use them as evidence for the model. I have a hard time with them though, because at least with the artifacts, their true origin is highly disputed and very controversial. I wish it were otherwise, but it makes it difficult to use them as absolute proof given their questionable provenance. The various ceremonies' origins and meanings are also disputed, so it makes it hard to also use those as evidences that everyone will accept. As a result, I think only the fans of the Heartland Model and maybe some other Latter-day Saints will accept them as valid evidence. For Meso folks like me, I think it's possible for some of them, if any of them are valid, to be possible evidence of Nephites that migrated north, or even of some other Israelite migration that is undocumented, but it's all speculation. I've also read the cool book by L. Taylor Hansen "He Walked the Americas". You are probably familiar with it. Since the stories are not really documented as to their supposed ancient origin, it makes it difficult to use them as evidence, but they do make for fun speculation. My take on those stories is that they could possibly be evidence of the ministry of Christ and/or the 3 Nephites to other parts of the Americas after Christ visited the people of Bountiful in 3 Nephi, but no way to say for sure if those stories are really ancient and pre-Columbian since they are all basically hear-say, though they do have an authentic vibe to them, I think :)

I have always been open to look at any model. So far the only one that survives scientific review of the known parameters (geological, etc) is the Mesoamerican model. But I am always open to look at new ideas.

@@jerrygrover8992 What I gather you must mean is BYU scientific review. I feel like ya gotta leave the West Coast man, I live in the Midwest and am well traveled throughout the midwest. I've heard these claims from these pseudo academics and all you have to do is walk into state historical societies and museums and witness the artifacts and alternative views to what is taught by the academics (isolated narratives). I've found it is whitewashed and doesn't contain 1/100th of what has been discovered and found. Not everything is published and found online, it takes real research work. I once bought into the Meso model too but I found that the clear lack of so many evidences is a challenge to me. Only the BYU academics come up with correlations. The heartland the people doing the research finding evidence are not members but their evidences corroborate. I don't buy all of Rod Meldrum's stuff either but it corroborates with the facts in multiple state history societies. From my research there has been definitely a washing of history to push a Manifest Destiny narrative that the Natives were savages to take their land. This is all coming out and being used in a flip side argument. This is dark side to America where these fake historians (i.e. propogandists) have done. I am part native American tribe (Algonquin / Powhatan) and we have a deep hidden history and distrust of academics pushing their narratives and claiming to understand our history. They don't listen and they alter it. The mere lack of intellectual humility has been a problem for the Church, we've bought into RLDS folklore. I'm sure there were interactions with Meso's but Sorenson has been a detriment to intellectual progress. Guatemala is likely named after Buddha, not Jesus. Some believe Buddhism (Siddhartha Gautama) was also influenced by a Persian Christian convert Mani (ie. Manichaeism) so there's some of the essence along with Lamanite interaction from the north.

What videos have you made?

Not a cool comment. If it isn't your cup of tea then move on.

I don't make videos. I love Ward Radio, but the guest was pretty boring. I gave the episode a thumbs up because I support the channel. I am sure they want honest feedback and not people kissing their butt.

@@VocalBiscuit i’d rather have a boring guest than listen to Cardon interrupt non-boring guests he brings on the show

Bro, it's the middle of the day. Maybe it's less about the guest, and more concerning that you might have sleep apnea.