Most of the comments seem to just be people looking for reasons to find favour with one man over the other "Krishnamurti talks too much, he's too logical" "Trungpa was drunk, he has too many controversies"......all missing the point 🤦🏻 This is not battle, it isn't Krishnamurti VS Trungpa Rinpoche. This is a lesson, ignore your personal feelings either way and detach from the forms that are giving the lessons. Just listen to the discussion.

this is one of the best videos ive seen in my entire life

Blessing to those at the Foundation who operate this page, for preserving this content

Trungpa is quietly and actively participating in the conversation, listening attentively, making comments where he feels necessary, even enjoying some of K's remarks, while people in the comments are projecting their own beliefs onto him. If you actually observe/listen to this discussion, you can see none of what you people beating the drums of fairness for trungpa are feeling, is actually observable in his behaviour, expressions, speech, or gestures. A learning moment for anyone coming up with that conclusion. For me too, because I felt the same for the first 7 minutes, and then I started paying attention to trungpa.

The "Jumping Jack" of intellect meets the "Everest" of Wisdom. 😊

That's a monologue, there is no open space for a conversation from JK. Trungpa has been quite polite towards an elder, letting him talk, not pushing. All the points JK makes are covered & answered at length in traditional Buddhist teachings, and in CT's teachings moreover. I feel CT could have answered them anytime he wanted, though with the quantity of questions asked & points made, that would have needed a whole exposé of Dharma. I find it fascinating how CT conducts himself here. I bow to CT.

J.K. was 77 and C.T. was 33. We're lucky to see and hear them. Merci à ceux qui ont rendu cela possible ! Témiscouata, Québec, Canada.

I love you , Rinpoche. Amazing posture 🙏🙏🙏🤍🤍🤍🤍🌸🌸🌸🌸

Chögyam answers Jiddu's question about "why should one meditate" by his composure alone. Very impressive

Now I see why I never had curiosity around Krishnamurti's teachings.

Trungpa listens with a kind smile

Thank you for this debate 🙏

Meditation is the observation of disorder without 'the me'. In that total observation there is order. 08:14 if traditional meditation has no meaning, then what is meditation? 19:49 what is observation of disorder? 21:29 can there be an observation without 'the me'? 27:55 can the mind observe without time and memory? 34:04 does the observation of disorder bring order?

They both are enquiring into a questions, if anyone sees them as questioning each other will not be able to see what is actually taking place in the video. They are looking answer for a question together, together being a keyword. Its not a quest, not a debate, not a discussion, but going into a issue together and finding a answer.

The greatness of Trungpa Rinpoche lies.very much in his ability to allow and embrace everything and gradually learn to go beyond it Krishnamu also a great teacher comes from the absolute. Unfortunately, we in our situation can only start from where we are. Trungpa Rinpoche is from this perspective the most brave and compassionate teacher of the 20th century

It looks as if JK is giving exam to Chogyam Trungpa. Trungpa is a patient teacher.

Fascinating video. I learnt a lot .

two processes of extraterrestrial intelligence play it interacting. I really love how the first question took 9+ minutes to be asked.

Krishnamurti kind of looks like a 200 year old baby somehow

I could watch this 2 going for hours. Such a rich content.

I think JK was excited to explain his thoughts to another who could truly understand and who had a mind broad and wide enough. Insight comes the way it comes through one kind of practice or another. Perhaps JK's lifelong non-practice was itself a practice, a discipline. It was good to have dogma questioned, but just raising the question doesn't mean that centuries of technique and careful thinking need to be thrown out because there is a tendency for it to get mired in the ritual and religion. Ritual holds the place for generations so that those that are open to it are able to receive the insight when it comes along. Just because some practice ritual emptily or reach a dead end with it doesn't mean it isn't one of the only robust tools that can can be read and disseminated without being in physical form after many generations. What is missing in JK's picture is compassion/loving kindness. With that insight the imperative to help others detangle and be free, and not just free yourself comes. And also all the insight in-between being asleep and being completely awake. The other thing JK brings is a colonial education that is opaque to insight and can only work through the intellect. Insight as opposed to 'visions', 'trances' and 'seances' that JK rebelled against. You can get to the picture via intellect it seems - but there is a large chunk of possible experience that is missing along the way.

He didn't answered Trungpa Rinpoche's "Don't you think in the living situation for a man that meditation happens a part of a life situation?"

Krishnamurthy almost asked Rinpoche a question for 20 minutes . The longest question ever .

Oro. Grazie mille

Thank you 😊

JK asserting there should be no teacher, and CT emerging from an honored lineage is a striking polarity between two absolutely different masters

Wow. Never have I ever seen and heard so much said with so few words. Considering this whole video is basically just a monologue by the guy in the blue shirt (a bit ridiculous), the dude in the suit still managed to deliver his message. Amazing.

I like the humming background

Trungpa sums up a 20 minute monologue with there is no observer observing.....that is meditation.

Thanks

I thought Krishnamurti was enlightened before i saw this 'interchange' with Trungpa

What I learned here is that Trungpas Compassion has no limits.

Was this filmed in a rug shop?

Trungpa come from a Tibetan Buddhist lineage of authentic practice and teaching transmit through the ages. He is being a good person here and very humble, listening to all this blabla when he should be actually the one doing the teaching here ;) If you know about Tibetan Buddhism you know that he master already the topic with clarity , simplicity and has already the keys through his own study, transmission and practice of an authentic tradition in his own native language created specially for this knowledge : the Tibetan language. Obviously way ahead, patient, and kind to JK.

At 21:00 he says observe without the me. But with our consciousness I feel meditation is needed in order to see how thoughts arise and how none are the observer. One must do meditation to see such an experienced truth. Unless we are born this way and already have that blessing. Most of us do not. We are so programmed how can we even separate from the outside disorder. Once one can see how to come from a place that is not “the me” then meditation will be the state of mind. The natural state. Omg this is too good.

You can really tell who practices and who doesn't.

Namas Trungpa Rinpoche. I can barely call this a conversation, with the percentage of time Krishnamurti spends talking.

I think in this conversation CT was more into listening mode and JK was willing to impart his wisdom fully to him...Not that JK was not allowing him to speak...CT was open to receive JK's wisdom....

The best interviewer, he's legit

Arrogance seems covered the host’s eyes. It’s obvious to tell who is a true master from this conversation. I was impressed by Rinpoche’s wisdom, calmness and patience. 🙏

Oh man this was a heavy one, i was reading his Trungpa's book "the myth of freedom" in which i coul so clearly see JK's influence

I guess he makes the point that in personal interaction with each other its possible to feel love. Yet when personal interaction is turned into a teaching thing with superior and inferior positions it's no longer love. That theres a space where love exists between us, and we should make that space the primary one.

Trungpa seems to read the jks mind and laughing from inside. Like...how busy is he in logic....which makes one away from truth😀😀

I used to listen to JK a lot a few years back. In the last little while I've been looking into Buddhism. Interesting I felt that a lot of what JK talked about was very much in line with the basics of Buddhism. Now I've come to this video and feel that JK is telling a Buddhist about Buddhism but doesn't realise he is. I'm saddened by this. I still respect JK very much, but didn't realise how little he respected anyone else's view. He for instance says humans have never observed.... what about the Buddha? What about all the other great masters of the Buddhist and other traditions. JK almost seems to suggest that he alone had observed.

Why meditate asks KM? Maybe so that you don’t fall so in love with your rambling, redundant thinking. I love how Trungpa embodies the fruits of practice, while KM just talks and talks in circles, in love with himself, even as he critiques the ego in the abstract.

I am so happy ........thank you ....krishnamurti's teachings in my language.....Wow😊😊😊😊

I just have to say bc I see comments about Trungpa being drunk. I adore both jk and Trungpa. It’s no denying Trunpga had substance issues according to various sources. After all he was still a human and idc who you are we aren’t perfect as you should know. But you can also certainly tell Trungpa has a lot of wisdom to share. His presence alone shows that he certainly has a composure and way of expressing himself due to his practices and life experiences. To try to take all that away bc he had substance issue and then the claims he is drunk here is missing the essence of what he attempted to share with his life. Did he succeed? That’s up for people to determine. Imo he was not trying to be anything for anyone or prove how he mastered what he learned. He just simply had a lot of valuable transformative knowledge he wanted to share w/ the world. Take his life how you want. But there’s much to learn from Trunpga. Lastly in this video he has the composure of a meditator not a drunk off his ass. I’ve lived with alcoholics and they didn’t have this type of composure and way of expressing themself. And I’ve known lifelong meditators as well, no comparison imo. You can tell when someone is moderately to heavily intoxicated on alcohol. Now listen and watch the wisdom flowing from these two people in their own way.

You people want entertainment out of this hence all the comparison and sly remarks. This conversation is order and behold it holds the mirror to our own disorder , just read the comments. Observe without knowledge and time , dont bring the personalities into this. Its not personal. This conversation or as a matter of fact any conversation is meditation. If you look, without yourself.

It would be more meaningful and helpful for all those seekers if this conversation would have been longer .As there were many things to be explore .

Chogyam Trungpa is really listener.

Man only wants to hear himself , seeker will seek, krishnamurthi will debate😂😂

In Emptiness there is no Order. In Emptiness there is no Disorder. All the skandhas are Empty. Recognizing the Emptiness of one's conceptions of Order/Disorder is the heart essence of Buddhist meditation.

Truth can be seen in silence...let us meditate 😀😀

Meditation is the way to bring order to the inner "house." Because of the transcendence that occurs. Just observing what is allows one to see a higher order, a disassociation from the disorder.

Definition JK states of mediation: “Can the mind observe without memory and time?” Only took 20 minutes or so.

Thank you Krishnamurti Ji and thankyou Rinpoche."K", You seem to be a Human Manifestation that Sees Clearly. Because of the molases of untruth that we swim in, it is difficult to find what You found, when we are living this tumultuous life. The Buddha explains(1) morality, (2) how to gather one's mind energy,(3)finding wisdom through application(4)and how 84,000 mind types arise through greed hatred and delusion. Without this vehicle of precious Knowledge being preserved for millennia, a few influential, unfortunate people in the world would have humanity totally under their control. But it is a double edged sword. It is only a vehicle to carry the Teachings.The essence ……. emptiness......clarity......a method to introspectively mirror the violence greed hatred and delusion. Temples and buildings aren't important. Practicing together helps us.Thankyou "K" , and Thankyou Rinpoche. With this Knowledge we can unlock our amazing abilities to be positive.

The observer is the observed. The commenter is the comment. I see people spilt in two in this comment section discussing who is what. I think to whom you were exposed first is playing a major part here.Is one dull or patient? Is one inconsiderate or too considerate?

I love JK; he's done a lot for me. That said, this is not his best moment. On the other hand Trungpa's composure throughout this half hour long tantrum is almost supernatural. I wonder, in 1972 how much exposure the two had to each other prior to this meeting given there were recordings made of both but no outlets for showing them to speak of. Trungpa seems totally ready and JK seems completely unravelled that he is unable to provoke him. And just think Trungpa had only been out of monastery for a few years whereas JK was raised from a tiny boy in the western world. Both with silver spoons in their mouths, however:)

When there is no me there is no disorder, the secret lies here

JK`s Order, disorder, the me, observation, silence, division are not new thing to any practising and studious buddhist. Hence, CT Rinpochhe did not see it necessary to put his answer forward. Instead, he patiently waited that JK would answer his own question. I love Jiddu Krishnamurthi, anyway.

Good conversation implies 2 factors: 2 People at minumim who are able ,open to listen to the othersexpression of thought and express there own thoughts.Thats what i would call an Conversation.:) Q: Is that meeting an conversation ? :)

I admire Krishnamurti for his eloquence and speaking skills. However, in this interaction, Krishnamurti actually exposed himself - that he knew nothing about the higher teachings of Tantric Buddhism. K was trying to set his own premise about meditation and refutes the premises that he himself has assumed... Had Krishnamurti knew the teachings of Mahamudra and Dzogchen, then maybe he would have closed his mouth for once in his life... Trungpa is a master of Dzogchen and Mahamudra, and most definitely Trungpa had more understanding and wisdom than K, it's just that K speaks english more fluently and has a fancy accent that people think K is more intelligent or wise or was the "bigger" thinker in this interaction. In fact, Trungpa was simply smiling at K at showcasing his realization of profound teachings, while Krishnamurti was blabbering for the most part, with his mind not being at rest, and not listening and hearing the other person. Sad to have said this as i also like Krishnamurti, but this is the truth in this interaction.

To look, that is it. K begins with the premiss that observation or true meditation must be without the ideal of personal experience. That foundation is essential. Without the "me". And even when one sees the truth, don't grasp it or draw conclusions. Continue to inquire, continue to see.

Krishnamurti is a child in front of a giant.

There is far too much theatre in what Jay Krishnamurti has to say which is nothing more than to quieten the mind by simply observing it without judgement, now commonly called “mindfulness.” But higher meditation starts with a view of emptiness of all compounded phenomenon which is the cognisance of non-intrinsic existence of the self or “anatma”.

Notes while listening: The orthodox path has always been the dissolution of the self. I think Krishnamurti is holding onto the prejudices that the Theosophists inculcated in him, and the resentment he acquired towards the Theosophists have merely reinforced those conditioned prejudices. He is right that, at the end of the day, it's the individual that has to travel the path, not some guru or guide. But the fact is, the average individual will make serious mistakes that will hinder their path. We see this all the time, it's something that traditional sources have always written about in order to warn people of the most serious and common mistakes. But today, within the neo-Theosophist movement, that is New Ageism, we see those same very mistakes being made. People chase after experiences in order to gratify the "I", thinking they are closing in on Enlightenment. And once they have a powerful non-linear experience, almost always they deify themselves, and then eventually form a cult that eventually becomes rife with sexual abuses and other narcissistic crimes that are expected of a human ego. We saw it in the past with the rise of the Yoga cults in California, we see it today with online youtube celebrities like Leo Gura [deification of the self, not necessarily abuse...yet] That being said, Krishnamurti does a great job clarifying what meditation really is. It is to remove the "me", to get it out of the way so that you can observe phenomena, as a structure of consciousness, objectively. The delineation between subject and object, between order and disorder, breakdown. One moves from duality to non-duality, but in that non-dual experience, there is order. He says that order must exist in this case, and it is because one can see very clearly that everything is the way it was meant to be. Without judgement, without discrimination, without the accretion of the past which we call the "me", everything is as it simply is. It is our judgement of order and disorder that there is disorder. But in the lack of judgement, in the total observation, there is order. Memory and time are the material of the mind. Memory is the basis of the "me", and time is the evolution of the "me". So then the question is, can the mind observe without memory and time? He says it is only possible when the mind is completely still. It's interesting he recognizes that the traditional people recognize this, I wonder who he was referencing. Tradition and orthodoxy typically go hand in hand, unless orthodoxy has departed from the tradition, which is the case in most religions. What he says is true nevertheless, and traditional practices, including the chanting of the names of God for instance, were actually ways of silencing the voice of the "me", eventually one would disappear in the chant, and eventually the chant itself would disappear so that nothing is left. And then, truth as inexplicability, may flash upon the canvass of the mind. The interesting thing about an authentic prayer or meditation on God is that one is placing expectation no longer in one's actions or in one's own abilities, but in this metaphysical reality we call God, as the ultimate agent, or the only true or real agent. It is about, therefore, surrendering the contrived will of the "me" and imbibing the will of that which is other than the "me". Memory and time are the material of the "me", but desire is the volition, the will, of the "me". As long as that will exists, then even if one works to silence the mind and observe without memory or time, the will of the "me", which perhaps is the substratum of the "me", will reignite the "me" and cause it to revive once more within the mind. So the effort is really about disciplining and silencing and bringing down the embers of these forces.

Lol it's a good speech of knowledge from both points of views but the decoration of Kleenix lol that had me crying😂😂😂😂

Neurosis vs. One Taste

Trungpa was observing murti's disorders

This is real Hardcore

Jidu literally asked a question and then answered it himself.

Order looking at disorder. Is it possible for disorder to see disorder? Does witnessing disorder cause the viewer to categorize themselves as being in order?

25:24 That is meditation 🧘‍♂️

I only saw the first twenty minutes, wherein Kris raises some pertinent points. Seeing that meditation has become a vogue in the west since the seventys without asking and answering the preliminary questions: why, for what, what is it, which meditation, how, etc. It seems that Kris rightly suggests that for most these questions are avoided or neglected..

It's quite annoying to come to listen to two different opinions and one speak 98% of the time. Krishnamurthy needs a chill

A conversation ? A monologue.

but how do you observe without the "me"

Trungpa points out - creating a stillness is not right, rather… seeing in a non dualistic way brings the energy of stillness. JK says a similar thing - order will bring out stillness. That is very true as well… when your mind resolves some kind of issue which has been bothering it for a long time… it naturally falls into a non-dual state. Therefore, stillness.

Just to be aware...

Krishnamurti still talking 14mins in. do you want a conversation/. lol

He sounds very informative, maybe because he is confident. I wonder where he grew up and with whom??

Is Jk himself doing analytical meditation?

The great Chogyam Trungpa was like a student hearing the teachings from Maitreya.

Krishnamurti at 30:36: "Stillness is not a practiced acquired thing. It comes naturally when you have order." Trungpa approximately 15 minutes earlier at 15:02, the first sentence out of his mouth after listening to Krishnamurti drone on for 15 minutes, unnecessarily elaborating on one simple question as if Trungpa needed the question properly set up for him: “Don't you think in the living situation of a man that meditation happens as part of a live situation?" Trungpa never pointed out that he indicated the same thing as Krishnamurti did, but 15 minutes earlier. Even a very humble, respectful "that is what I said earlier" would have been appropriate. But, Trungpa did not.

Summary : Meditation in the absent of "me", that absent brings order, and you must have the order to go any further ...

the burning urge to compare person vs person

I love Krishnamurti but this was not a really conversation, This was more a monologue

First off: what was the point in all of that? In bringing on Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche? Sounded like an Oxford University lecture on a Eurocentric philosophical perspective on the nature of religion, politics, and an obscure point about order, disorder, and meditation. Now, one could reply to me: “You shouldn’t criticize or make an observational remark about the relative polarity, partiality, and overall poverty of a convoluted ‘interview’.” Actually, you can make one and still be respectful, informative, tolerant, impartial, and bring fresh perspective and wisdom to the conversation. Here is a summation of the point that was trying to be made by J. Krishnamurti, with emphasis on a critique, or clarification and elaboration on what could have been the potential outcome ideally: J.K.: Is effort necessary in realizing omniscience and transcendence? Are these goals impossible or possible? Is meditation necessary or is it another form of religious practice that distracts us from the simplicity at the heart of enlightened awareness, or presence? Is effort necessary to cultivate an inner awareness of the energy of life flowing through the body and mind, when all that is required (in his perspective, wrongly) is total stillness? Does meditation seek to bring disorder into order and if so, how? And if not, then what is “it” that can be cultivated through it (what is its purpose, goal and measure of success in its being historically very popular and “successful”)? And how? What is the nature of order and disorder? And how can religion and meditation proper address that so-called presumed inclination in humanity to seek it out? Can it? And should it? Is it necessary? And can meditation address it? Can it solve or transcend it? Ideally, this is the conclusion that could have been gleaned from the 38 minutes of talking: Within motionlessness is pure potentiality. Within absolute stillness is the effortlessness of presence that makes it possible to cultivate within the mind the impartial, loving confidence that is the spontaneous expression when the embodiment of omniscience is thoroughly cultivated and achieved through effortlessness, which itself typically (in the average person) has to be cultivated through intentional effort, education, organized system of discipline, instructions, support, inner wisdom, perseverance, realistic appraisal of one’s skills, compassion for oneself and others, and some form of austerities which make it necessary for progress to be made in cutting through the egoic evolutionary impetuses, reflexive reactivity, loopholes, and both subtle and gross instinctual patterns and processes of mind, speech, and body (mind, words, and actions), the environmental contexts and challenges that are a part of living, the knowledge of how the mind operates, and the spiritual wisdom and intuitive “intelligence” which is both needed and acquired along the way in a gradual process of unlearning, unveiling, cleansing, and ultimately bringing into wholeness the entirety of the panoramic experience of the light of the heart’s wisdom into one’s self-awareness as pure sentient nonlocal nondualistic spatial awareness; and so forth. A convoluted lecture that comes close to hitting a point, but is derailed many times. Said with respect for all opinions to all parties.

JK asking silly questions that he actually did not want answered. CTR enduring his rambling with humour and kindness.

Who is the I in me The watcher within The one aware when My mind wonders Here, there and everywhere Who with gentle breath and tender touch Stills my mind and guides me back to now Call the I what you will The East's suffering self Or the West's sentient soul Either way Does being mindful really have the power As some say To make us whole If we learn to pay attention And intentionally inhabit each moment of the day Instead of letting our minds stray And wander away

Meditation is not personal achievement sitting next to god. Meditation is a state of mind wch the 'ME' is absent and therefore that very absence brings order.

JK got a run :) hahaha...he´s in the zone,seemingly exited about what expressions comes out of him :) LOVe it :) Great in many ways

JK seems like he's fighting his own battle here... which is fine, but he wouldn't be talking about this stuff if not for the tradition in some respects. Perhaps I should read JK's books, but perhaps JK should've read CT's books, which detail better than any source the pitfalls of the path and of meditation in particular. Perhaps CT should barge in to make it more interesting, but I don't think he cared to tbh. I'd like to give JK the benefit of the doubt and say that this is his expression of a clear/enlightened/active mind, that he is sincerely asking Chogyam for a real dialogue and not jabbing at his tradition, but at times that is a painful stretch. His point about creating disorder from pattern, memory & time's relation to the "material of the mind," etc are great however.

My man can't stop talking !

It is just a talk between two intelligent people....and sharing their knowledge that's all...

I wonder if J.Krishnamurti new Chogyam was an alcoholic suffering from many inward conflicts ?

French subtiles?

I respect JK but here he seems to be in a state of a parent lecturing his child without knowing when to stop to the point the child gets annoyed and ends up not listening to it.

Sir.... experience is sensual. Truth can't be sensed, it can only be realised with wisdom, itself is wisdom, subject objects are not two different things at realisation level, because what mind realise is no other than it's real nature itself which can't be termed in words and can't be thought of.

Orderly Chaos. Sounds familiar!