I’ve always loved Helaena she’s one of the few that never did anything wrong to anyone she just did her duty and minded her mother. 😢 poor baby

GRRM always puts in solutions for the story and the characters who either knowingly choose the other options or is unaware and that's how you make tension and drama.

Why am I so sad that these two fictional children will never get to know each other and fall in love now 😫

Their children would've had a lot of support, too, because they are Targaryen, Arryn, Hightower (Strong), and legally Baratheon and Velaryon. What a missed chance 😩

Jace and Helaena probably could've been good to and for each other 😔

After episode 8, we all saw how much happier Helaena would have been with Jace...

Marrying Jace and Heleana to avoid war would be like marrying Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York while her brothers Edward and Richard were still alive.

I kind of see Jace buying Helaena a bunch of bugs from westeros and bringing rare ones from Essos for her and building her a little bug zoo it would be his version of the watergarden, and Helaena would open it to the children of kingslanding 💗💗

The problem is Alicent made up her mind a LONG time ago to support Otto's idea to vie for the throne -- before Rhae had any kids. Rhaenyra didn't do herself any favors with having Harwin's kids, but Alicent was always gonna gun for her. Rhae just gave her more ammo.

I think things probably wouldn't truly settle until Jace and Helaena had a few kids but it definitely would have eased the wider tensions between the Blacks and Greens. Granted Alicent would still have been driving herself mad but what better protection could she have than marrying her bloodline directly to Rhaenyra's? Her reaction is so telling of how twisted up inside her father's lust for power and Rhaenyra's poor choices have made her.

This also shows the tragedy in the family from all of this. Another thing we saw in this episode is that these children do not want to fight each other. They want to be family. It's the adults obsessed with setting them against each other that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Viscerys should have forced this marriage, then tried to match two of the other three boys to Deamon"s girls.

I've recently read a very interesting interview with Ryan Condal where he said the sexual murals are supposed to be "saved" from old Valyria, and that old Valyria basically had a very open sex culture. He went on to explain how the traditional outlook of Targaryens on sex is completely different from the Westerosi one. Just found that very interesting because Daemon and Rhaenyra are the most 'Valyrian' Targaryens right now. It adds this element of her being expected to act against not only her nature but also the culture that she was kinda brought up with and this additional context of a ruling class with a different outlook on morals than the majority of the country.

I was so moved by the way Emma delivered the proposal. Like yes, it was an obvious political play, but the "I miss my childhood sister" of it all really came through.

Viserys no doubt loves Rhaenerya more than anything or anyone in the world after his beloved aemma horrific death

What if they actually were in love. In the books Jace asked Helaena for a dance and Aegon II got pissed..

I always got the feeling Jace would have made a great king if he got the chance to be one

Not only would accepting Rhaenyra’s proposal have given Hightower an advantage… it would have put Rhaenyra personally in Alicent’s debt. Alicent would know that her action had been the one to save Rhaenyra’s children, and that sort of knowledge can be leveraged. It would also give Hightower the benefit of the PR of their own Good Queen Alysanne. “Queen Helaena the Healer, light of Oldtown; who started motherhouses for orphans and schools for bastards to learn trades”, etc etc. They could have really leaned into it, but Alicent allowed emotion to overrule intellect for a hot second there.

There were quite a few options for marriages that could have avoided the war, starting with Viserys doing the right thing marrying Leana. Marrying Daemon and Rhaenyra from the beginning. Marrying Jace and Helena.

My take: I don’t believe that Alicent is concerned for her kids’ safety and protection. I don’t even think she much LIKES her own kids by now. Maybe 10 years ago or so, but after a decade of becoming increasingly paranoid and obsessed over comparing her “goodness and decency” to Rhaenyra’s supposed lack thereof. Now it’s more about her and about her “prevailing;” the kids are really more incidental to her. They’re just there to prop up her image of being morally superior and in the right. I think she’s still got herself convinced that it’s “for the kids,” but her actions and the way she treats them, especially Aegon, tell a different story.

This might have saved both kids in the end, even if just in theory. However...😭

i don't know why, but you mentioning that Viserys seems to be enjoying watching thier grandkids with Lionel Strong made me a little verklempt. Put that way its such a human moment in a episode where everyone's mostly ill tempered with each other

Alicent not accepting that offer was absolute madness.

The root of the problem is that there are three legitimate Targaryen princes. Helaena marrying Jace would only make her a hostage. Just like when Elizabeth of York (Compare to Helaena) married Henry VII, only her sisters were made "safe". All her brothers died. When a person claiming to be his brother showed up, they had to execute him. Whether he's a pretender or not, the fact remains that a challenger to the throne has to be killed. Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron had to die

Let the fan fictions for Jace and Haelena begin

yes! Jace and Helaena both have a sweet demeanor. they'd probably be a good ruler like Viserys and Aemma.

Otto put two destinies in front of Alicent and she is actively manifesting the worst of the two options. I've always believed that yes, if Jace and Helaena married and Alicent fully allied herself to Rhaenyra and Jace's claim then no internal conflict would've happened and if a group of Lords decided to rebel to try and put Aegon or Aemond on the throne what could they do if both brothers fought for and supported their sister's (and Jace's) claim? That's a whole lot of dragons. I'm not absolving Rhaenyra of blame of course, bastards was a bad idea obviously but Alicent is pushing for the war that'll bring nothing but tragedy for both sides of the family when she had the ultimate power to shut it down with how she raised her children but Otto has poisoned her mind.

This could have been avoided if he never remarried and worked to teach Rhaenyra how to build alliances & rule. That one act put Westeros on the path to war. He also should have pushed the importance of birthing a legitimate heir, had she held her desires in check for a couple years and gave her husband children, her claim would be rock solid and it would be Allicent begging Rhae for an marriage alliance. Allicent is too conservative and hurt over Rhae's lies to ever compromise. At this point she just wants Rhae and her kids gone & dead. She is a power hungry fool fueled by fear.

Its pretty easy to tell from F&B that Jace is the easily the most worthy to succeed to the Throne of any candidate after Viserys dies, sad they didnt have another council, I think thats why Alicent had aegon and haleana marry so fast and have children to prevent this compromise

Alicent is caught up in her own righteousness to make the most logical decision presented to her: unite their families to keep her children safe.

I only just noticed how hard Helaena shrank away from Alicents touch

I wish the show would provide an insight on Rhaenyra’s pov on how she planned to go about this from the start of the rumors. Viserys is protecting her best he can but once he’s gone it’s all up in the air. She had to know that or was she putting her head in the sand. That’s where jumping the time has missed these beats.

I still feel like it could have led to a war or an uprising, it's an open secret that would plague them both, which their enemies could constantly use against them. Despite her obsession over Rhaenyra’s sons parentage, Alicent understood this and how it could potentially affect her daughter which also fed into the obsession…..not to mention Daemon who still wants the throne, glory and Rhaenyra will probably also have something to say. This whole mess is from Viserys passivity and trying to please everyone and not ruffle too many feathers, giving someone duck when they prefer goose will never make them “finish” their meal and he should have taken this into account along with Rhaenyra’s bold and daring personality

I feel like a lot of people talk about how much Rhaenyra is like Viserys, but I think Helaena is definitely the closest in personality to their father. They each have a kinda nerdy interest (bugs for Helaena, medieval equivalent of legos for Viserys), prophetic dreams, and both are more reserved people (especially compared to their respective siblings). I don’t think it would have fit in with the rest of the season well, but I would have loved to see a scene with just Viserys and Helaena bonding a bit. It would have been nice to see Viserys even attempt to more than vaguely acknowledge that he even has other children besides Rhaenyra lol

Is anyone else feeling a fanfiction coming on? If only Rhaenyra was more politically astute. Plus, I always thought Rhaenyra's children's paternity was more questionable in the books. They looked less Targaryen, were described as looking 'common' but the Velaryons aren't all white haired in the book. Leanor's mum's mum is a Baratheon, and the seed is strong so Rhaenys has dark hair, possible with a light streak like some do, and the pic of Corlys has dark salt-and-pepper hair. Leana is described as having long silver curls, but no one talks about Leanor's hair, I don't think. He might be gay but that doesn't mean he can't have children.

Another element to Alicent's refusal could be that if she believes that eventually, this charade with the Strong boys must come to an end and when that happens Helaena would be in danger as Jace's wife. Of course, she is the main force chipping away at the charade so it's quite similar to Otto saying that the realm won't accept Rhaenyra when he is one of the main opponents of her succession.

Rewatching this after episode 8 and the cutest little dance! Oh the suffering that could have been avoided!

The wedding to avoid war would have been Viserys and Laena. She looked very young at the time of the proposal, but she was only two years younger than Rhaenyra. They made it seem like the king would die every episode, when really he had a ton of time. He could've accepted the offer and married Laena a few years later because of her age and because he was still mourning Aemma.

Thank you so much for saying that being a bastard does in fact not effect your character! I see a lot of comments online alluding to exactly that and being like "oh he is a bastard he doesn't deserve to marry a princess" and it makes me question humanity

Everything in the show version of Alicent roots back to Alicent (and in his own way Criston Cole) having a strange willful class blindness towards Rhaenyra where they both seem to forget that they were never her equal friends and she didn't really ever betray an equal friendship, at least not by having profoundly different responsibilities and freedoms than them. They were her employees even when they were young, they are the king's direct employees forever after and throughout the story they are the ones who are betraying their responsibilities required by their jobs because they just can't accept that they are lower class than the Targaryens and there actually are different laws and rules for people in different classes in this world. You can make a case that Criston Cole doesn't freak out and do a murder every time he is reminded that he broke his vows, he freaks out every time someone reminds him that there are different rules for different classes and he is in the low one. Alicent is only queen consort because Viserys needed a Lady of the Bedchamber more than he needed a wife - if Rhaenyra had any PR skills whatsoever she would have destroyed Alicent with this - further its likely that if Viserys in his own misguided way had not thought Alicent would not continue to act in service of Rhaenyra he would have never picked her. Alicent and Criston are both just so jealous of her that they can't see that both of them have risen so far beyond their station than they ever should have hoped to dream - and it keeps them from seeing the only good things in their lives were only ever possible because of her favor and friendship. That any future opportunities in their lives would only be possible through her favor and friendship.

in the book there is a point where he asks her to dance aswell and almost gets into a huge fight with her husband because of it 😫

The problem with Rhaenyra is that she takes for granted all of the privileges she has as a princes and instead of focusing on those many benefits, she is so obsessed with the very few things that are forbidden. She also gives very little if any consideration for the consequences of her actions and instead just does whatever she wants, she may not be outright evil or intentionally trying to hurt people but this is recipe for disaster. She wants the benefits of being the heir to the throne BUT doesn't care for the obligations of such a position. And if she, the future queen, doesn't give a shit about following the rules, how would she expect her subjects to take those rules seriously then? - I guess by having dragons and being a cruel dictator. I understand Leanor is gay but for the sake of avoiding a potential massive bloodbath one day, they should have made at least the first child together. Besides, wouldn't he like to have a son of his own?

I think an important context here is that kids born out of wedlock are viewed very differently in most of Westeros than in our world. They have special surnames to distinguish that they're bastards so everyone knows and can judge them. Their mothers are shamed, worshippers of the Seven denounce them as products of lust and sin, etc. In many places they can't legally inherit, certainly can't succeed in a noble line. They're viewed as naturally sneaky and suspicious, lustful and deviant, because of their birth, we see this in the books how Jon Snow is treated and how Sansa in her disguise is harassed. After the Blackfyre Rebellions, bastards are seen as potential causes for house unrest and families being torn apart, dangerous to the very safety and stability of a kingdom. Alicent marrying her trueborn daughter to a bastard would have solved a lot of problems yeah, but it would have been a major insult, demeaning and disgraceful, especially as the rumors spread far and wide that he wasn't a trueborn heir but a bastard who shouldn't have been crowned at all. What if the devout were whipped up into a frenzy to dethrone the bastard king? What if minor noble houses propped up their own trueborn children as rivals to the throne? What if witnesses to Rhaenyra's adultery came forward and spoke out? What would happen to Alicent's daughter and possible grandchildren then? That's not safety, that's kicking the problem down the road for a few years.

Alicent was right to say no to Rhanera's betroval. The belief that those boys are not true born would spill into their children. Their children would not have a legitimate claim. And Helena would not have the noble prestige marriage if her husband is believed to be a child born out of wedlock. ( KZfaq thinks the other word is an insult)🤣

I don't think wedding Jake and Helaena is quite the silver bullet people think of it as. It's more like a shot in the dark by Rhaenyra as an attempted olive branch. Eventually Aegon and Aemond and Daeron are going to get married to other high houses like the Lannisters, like the Baratheons, the Tyrells, the Velaryons. And there's nothing stopping THOSE high houses from using Jake's pretty universally agreed but not official status as a bastard to try and push Aegon II's claim over Rhaenyra and they are probably going to play the Game of Thrones. It might and probably would cut off enough support for the upcoming war to not be such a devastating issue. But as long as Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron live Rhaenyra's and later Jake's reign is always going to have legitimacy issues in the eyes of the high lords and just marrying Haelena and Jake isn't going to magic bullet solve it. Like lets say J+H goes through and Alicent drops the issue. Then Baela Valaryon is a viable marriage to Aegon and Corlys with Aegon as his grandson in law, is probably going to have issues with the law of succession not just because of the throne but because whatever kid from a very possible Baela and Aegon marriage would actually share Corlys's blood and he would obviously prefer his blood to inherit Driftmark over Luke who isn't fathered by Laenor. Even if Alicent does the marriage and drops the issue, there's nothing stopping whatever Lannister lady Aegon marries, and the lord of Casterly Rock or whichever house he marries, from spending all of the time going forward trying to ratfuck Rhaenyra and later Jake out of the throne. It's inevitably going to be an issue. Rhaenyra fucked up. Big time. And there's no real way to completely bloodlessly take the throne anymore unless literally everyone and every highlord bends over backwards to ignore her treason and the law.

Rhaenyra: Let's sow peace in the realm and wed our child- Alicent: No u!

I don't get why Rhaenyra and Laenor didn't just...you know...kinda...figure it out. Kinda like Marge suggested to Renley.

The only wedding that I think would have avoided the civil war would have been Aegon and Rhaeynra. Viserys was a moron to dismiss it out of hand.

Rhaenyra might not be inclined to put Alicent's sons to death, but after defeating three or four costly rebellions and/or plots _by other people_ to put them on the Iron Throne, she might reluctantly decide, under pressure from her advisors, to do it anyway. Look at the real life Elizabeth I and Mary Queen of Scots for a similar dynamic.

Seeing the way they danced in episode 8 they could have been happy together

The issue is, this still leaves all of helaena’s brothers, especially Aegon since he’s the only one whose older, to claim the crown. When Elizabeth of york married Henry Tudor, that was only cause all her brothers died that she and Henry United their claims. Even then someone pretended to be her brother and her male cousin was executed for posing a threat. Jace and helaena is like Elizabeth and Henry but if the prince in the tower are still alive

I'm so glad someone has made a video about this. It was such a crucial moment in the series when alicent throws the solution to all her problems down the drain out of spite. There's no benefit for her or her family by turning rheanerya down here.

You know I didn't understand this and im happy you brought it up, how is the KING too weak politically to overrule the queen? Also, even if Viserys wanted to disinherit Rhaenyra after everything, that would be a bad idea?

The actor playing jace is freaking adorable when he sniffed and his little nose went up and he looked all sad at Harwin.

if Helaena does have Dragon Dreams it would be interesting to see if she passes these dreams on to her daughter Jaehaera?

I love how you analyze things! I have never watched one of your videos and felt confused or underwhelmed by your explanations. The thought and detail you obviously put into everything you do gives me a nice glowing feeling in my nerd heart. Keep up the good work my dude!

Marrying Jace and Haelena would have solved nothing. The whole premise of the Green argument is the upholding of the tradition of salic law therefore Haelaena in their eyes would still have no claim as long as any of her brothers remained alive, same as Rhaenyra. All it actually does is put two persons with no claim (a bastard and a woman) on the throne whereas the actual legitimate sons of the king would still be left in a vulnerable position. Rhaenyra, if she ever became queen would still need to remove Aegon, Aemond and Daeron in order to secure the throne for her own illegitimate offspring

Your ideas are always on point 👏👏

I can totally see things from Alicent's point of view, she's done everything by the rules and Rhaenyra has been sh*tting on the floor constantly with 0 consequences just because of her dad. I don't particularly like Alicent but I have even less respect for Rhaenyra as a person or a leader.

Thanks for the new video! Love your content as always! 👌

Another great breakdown! Looking forward to tomorrow episode & the live stream after!

It will be very interesting if haelena is secretly team black ( like somewhat believed rhaenyara should be queen ) until blood and cheese 👀 and it breaks her belief system and did what she did

Your video is a great argument for the case that Larys Strong is a greenseer sent to destroy the targaryen dragondynasty - so that the greenseer and weirwoodkings can conquer/rule westeros. Larys one of, if not "the" main reason that Alicent can not trust Rhenyra anymore. Alicent can not accept Rhaenyra and the offer anymore. I appreciate your help to save the deal. :-)

I'm re reading Fire and Blood!! It's fascinating. Thank you David for all the incredible content. So proud to be a myth-head!

This was, as usual, wonderful and insightful

Wow what a great in depth informative breakdown....thank you so much 😀 💓

Why wouldn't they just marry Jace, Luke, Joff, Aegon, Aemond and Daeron to Helaena, Baela and Rhaena? There is no succession crisis that can't be solved by incestuous polygamy.

A new video with David?? Now, THIS is what needs to go with my morning coffee. David, you are are true Ser🍻 May Garth make your jars overfloweth!!

10 years later, Cris is still bitter! On top of this, Alicent is still bitter about Rhay’s choice of young hot muscular men in comparison to her having an old man with rotting flesh!! Heck…I would be jealous too!!

Man, I knew they would be a great match and avoid the war but this video has solidified my feelings and amplified them tenfold. I'm actually upset now at what could have been, and thinking about how Jace dances with Halaena at her wedding and how frustrating and sad that is if they actually seem to like each other

Great content as always. Best wishes

The King should have just said yes to Rhaeneyra's proposal and not even considered his wife. She has obviously lost it. Why would she propose such a thing if she wanted them dead? He should have taken his daughter's side. It would have saved many lives.

Hi David! Please make MORE “What If” videos!! I’m really interested in your insight of things that could’ve happen/avoided!

I can only say what I've already said before - I love your work!

This is really awesome breakdown of the turmoil that all the lies, deception and secrets cause leading up to the Dance 🐉🤘🖤🔥

I'v been waiting for this David lightbringer never disappoints!! The war could have been avoided if this marriage was a success.

Another great upload

Viserys threatening you with your tongue is just too funny. hope to see it become a funny video edit someday.

When you said "alas, it was not to be..." I sighed

It’s giving Big Little Lies. I love it! Your take is spot on, I totally agree. 👏🏾

Second of this video/ name…. Thanks again, LML / AKA - David Lightbringer!

Its kind of funny because I believe in the book (Fire and Blood) it was Alicent who pushed for a marriage between Aegon and Rhaenrya originally to avoid this conflict. I can't remember if there was ever any suggestion of marriage between Jacaerys and Helaena, I think by then the emnity was so great it would've been denied out right like it was in the show. Truly, King Viserys probably should of never remarried in the first place. He should've pressured Rhaenyra to marry sooner, thereby making sure the only threat to his daughter's claim is from her Uncle or the Velaryons. His marriage to Alicent only increased the number of threats to Rhaenyra's claim. In any case, great video and I'm loving the show so far.

Yes yes !! More vids fron lml !! Yay!

If Daemon was made the hand after Strong, could of also avoided this war.

I feel like this like a lot of others, completely glosses over a key point. Alicent does. not. want. Rhaenyra to be queen, and she wants her son Aegon to be king. Simple, I know but this fact seems to get lost so much. In any outcome that leads to Rhaenyra or her sons on the throne over Aegon or Aemond is a failure in her eyes. Hence, why she doesn't agree to the proposal that would literally set Rhaenyra and Jace as the heirs to the throne. Not to mention brokering any type of deal with Rhaenyra would require Alicent to actually trust her which she doesn't at all.

Point of order- in theory all of this could have also been avoided by Rhaenyra marrying Harwin Strong from day one- making the choice for herself like her father wanted instead of having the choice made for her.

I really wished this could have been explored but your video made up for it.

You give the best breakdowns...#subbed

I love your whole vibe okayyyyy

This is a REALLY good video mate! Wow! You should have a seat on the high council for sure haha

Something really sad is that when Alicent's and Rhaenyra's children seemed to get along and kinda play and joke around with each other it was all the adults the ones who separated them

Excellent breakdown.

I wonder how Alicent's character changes now that she's the ine rejecting marriage proposals for her children instead of the one proposing the marriages. It seems now that, at least in this point of the story, she was more willing to resolve the situation in the books than in the show. Grest video as always LmL!!

YESS!! The best analysis of the situation, again, was yours. Kudos Lightbringer!!!

The interview was awesome and I hope there's more of the same in the future

3:40 😭 LML you've enhanced this scene all too much, so touching

great commentary, new sub

Great video

It was Larys villainous treachery that directly or indirectly caused the Dance of the Dragons. After his discussion with Alicent by the hibiscus bush, the dance was on, and to late for compromise.

And an extra comment for the algorithm gods! 🤘