Line of Sight in Warhammer The Old World

Рет қаралды 1,117

2 ай бұрын

How do you play Line of Sight in Warhammer The Old World? Do you need to stoop down to the models point of view? Does the height of the model matter? What about terrain?
#warhammertheoldworld #warhammerfantasybattle #warhammer #warhammerfantasy

Пікірлер: 53

@NisGaarde 2 ай бұрын

These videos are really great. The writing in TOW could be a lot tighter. These are good discussions to have before a game or tournament for sure.

@user-bw8qc9tr6r 2 ай бұрын

Regarding the Hill question this is how I read it: We have flat hills to make placing models easier but in reality they are going up to a crest. So the 'height' of a unit is determined by the closeness to the centre of the hill. Even if your hill is flat. The unit in the centre is 'above' the unit on the edge. The exception being hills against the edge of the map which are assumed to go up and off the map, so units on the edge of the map are higher than units in the centre.

@d6wounds 2 ай бұрын

Yes that seems like a logical way of doing it.

@GreenBlueWalkthrough 2 ай бұрын

Then why not say the crest of the hill? Like what if the hill is of multiple hieghts?

@TheGreasyGoblin916 2 ай бұрын

Yep, I've also found the Line of Sight in TOW rules problematic. It's a shame, because easily understood Line of Sight rules are so crucial to table-top games. For me LoS rules should aim to be as clear and intuitive as possible. Anything else just leads to constant rule-consulting breaks, long discussions and unnecessary frustration.

@MiscastTable 2 ай бұрын

regarding the section about cover and being obscured. I fully agree that is something which is best worked out in accordance with the person that you're playing against. However, my understanding of the rules is that you need to evaluate cover not from the unit as a whole, but rather from each individual model that is about to make a ranged attack. Meaning that arguably, one or two of the dwarves would get -1 to hit whilst the rest of the dwarfs hardly can be said to have any difficulties seeing 100% of the orcs in the example.

@d6wounds 2 ай бұрын

Yes exactly - most of the dwarfs in that example would have no cover penalty

@PTGProxyTableGaming 2 ай бұрын

Really nice video and really enjoying all the rules explanations/discussions! Thanks! (L6s)

@d6wounds 2 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

@NoProcrastinationMiniatures 2 ай бұрын

Good videos 👍 having played a bit of Kings of War before coming back to Warhammer the KoW rules re: line of sight and movement are much more straightforward. I thought that they didn't always feel as 'natural' as Warhammer 8th, but Old World LoS and movement is certainly taking some getting used to!

@baronkarza8612 2 ай бұрын

Keep them coming! Great video.

@Knoffles 2 ай бұрын

I’m not a huge fan of KOW but how they handle model height was excellent with it being something like humanoids being height 1, monstrous and Cav being height 2, monsters being height 3 etc. it made who could see who really simple.

@Jimbo818 2 ай бұрын

Yeah, similar with those 9th age charts too. It does help.

@marastarbreaker6327 2 ай бұрын

WAP does the same. No argument or discussion there

@d6wounds 2 ай бұрын

I think perhaps this is something to house rule in a tournament. There is already an exception for large targets and swarms so why not also differentiate between monstrous / cavalry and infantry..

@pforson 2 ай бұрын

It is hilarious that GW still can‘t get basic stuff like LOS and cover working sensibly. Other games solve this very easily by giving units and terrain height values and measuring LOS from the center of the front rank. They also measure base to base. These rules read as if someone was told to make it TLOS, but the author didn‘t want to so they tried to fudge a sort of half-and-half solution.

@user-bw8qc9tr6r 2 ай бұрын

How are you playing large creatures and terrain? Currently I am discussing with opponent which terrain blocks LOS to large creatures based on the height of the terrain. E.G a 6 foot wall that blocks infantry LOS is not blocking LOS to a large target

@GreenBlueWalkthrough 2 ай бұрын

Meanwhile I just got doner eading the rules for my B1 battle droid unit in Star wars legion my first of their unit rules... Man does GW rules writers love to make thing simply convlutoed... Like I get this is a new edtion of WH Fantasy but you would think there foot notes would clear stuff up and not make it worse. Like I read all the rules I need to field my 8 droid fireteam in about a minute and me being disabled though I knew how to play them... I should know SWL better but man did this video make my brain hurt like all LOS should be iis does a model see another then define it be parts, base/cube or "eyes" like Humans should be able to see over dwarves but not charge though them.... Great video by the way you did your best!

@NexusWargaming 2 ай бұрын

Thank you for the video! Another LOS question for clarification: do you measure arcs from the unit or from individual models?

@tizianomerello6530 Ай бұрын

You have to measure Los arc each model! In that situations mutch archers shoot normally, one or two shoot with -1

@7nineofspades5 2 ай бұрын

Rules as written skirmishers also block line of sight to themselves, and in fact, the way it's written the front rank of a ranked unit blocks line of sight to the models in the second rank. So if you're 5x3 for example, 66% of the unit is hidden so they get heavy cover. If you pair up all your skirmishers properly you can give yourself -3 to be hit at range despite being behind no terrain or intervening units. Obviously not intended but as written stupid things are in fact the case.

@d6wounds 2 ай бұрын

Haha good point!

@dstanful 2 ай бұрын

yep you can tell they had to address this in one of the stranger bits of the 2nd faq

@morgantreeman6872 2 ай бұрын

"straight uninterrupted line from within the model's vision arc". It says the line must originate from within the model's vision arc. It does not say it must start on the model's front facing or base. Therefore, you can draw a point from anywhere you want within arc of sight to aim at a model that is hidden behind a hill. You can see models behind hills.

@d6wounds 2 ай бұрын

It says specifically you can’t see models behind hills. I didn’t mention it in the video but just read further down the page.

@morgantreeman6872 2 ай бұрын

@@d6wounds Read the rule carefully. I draw a line from a point that starts anywhere on the map within my model's arc of vision, perhaps 20" from the the shooting model's base. That line passes through the shooting model and targeted model without passing across the hill. The rule does not specify I must draw the line from the base of the shooting model.

@ClydeMillerWynant 2 ай бұрын

As far as I can tell if there are two units on the hill and one of them is trying to see over the other then one of them is higher up by virtue of being closer to the crown of the hill which is apparently always in the centre. However, if there's only one unit on the hill even if it has this crown of the hill between it and the target it can see over the crown no problem? Maybe I've misunderstood, but if I'm reading it right it would almost be better if they hadn't discussed this at all. Obviously as you mention all hills should really have two levels what with them being made out of two different sized books with a piece of cloth over them, but that's by the by.

@d6wounds 2 ай бұрын

Yes! Two books under the cloth was standard practice 😄

@Mikkjel1 2 ай бұрын

I think the hill FAQ is abstracting hills further - they are both infinitely tall and infinitely steep. Abstractly, the tallest part of a hill is the middle of the hill and the height decreases from there.

@d6wounds 2 ай бұрын

I dislike any use of the concept of ‘infinity’ - it’s too abstract to fully understand.

@tizianomerello6530 2 ай бұрын

Basically at the end models block los , no metter if infantry, cavalry or mostrous cavalry/ infantry?

@d6wounds 2 ай бұрын

Yep. Only swarms and Large targets have exceptions

@lofilevelling7830 2 ай бұрын

From the "models point of view" a character on a chariot can draw line of site but is actually blocked by the unit in front? The line has to be drawn from base to base it seems but it doesn't actually state that.

@another4868 2 ай бұрын

They got some ideas from 9th Age, I’m baffled LoS wasn’t one of them because those are really tight and unambiguous. I hate true LoS 😓

@Jimbo818 2 ай бұрын

You have to stoop down so that your opponent can kick you in the arse - pg 236.

@tizianomerello6530 2 ай бұрын

I think you have to consider models by models. In the first exemple ,dwarf in the front right cant shoot, dwarf on the left of him can shoot with -1 to hit, the rest of them shoot normally. ( dwarfs in the second rank can’t shoot)

@d6wounds 2 ай бұрын

The dwarf on the far right can still shoot the orcs just with -1 to hit.

@tizianomerello6530 Ай бұрын

In that exemple you consider only front of the enemy units right? I think we don’t have to consider second rank because we see only front. So if front is 5 and my model see 3 of them , it’s -1 to hit. Am I right?:)

@pinch1loaf 2 ай бұрын

I object to the idea of the base being a LoS blocker. You don't have to "Stoop Down" if that's the case. It could just state if the straight line passes through the base of another model it blocks LoS. Unless there is a clear definition where the base is also declared as the model.

@Knoffles 2 ай бұрын

That was my reasoning too and why I think that bit needs an FAQ. I can see it both ways but as Simon said the written rules have too much ambiguity in their writing their.

@pinch1loaf 2 ай бұрын

@@Knoffles I don't see the ambiguity. It says stoop down and check. It's impossible to lower your eyes to the level of a base. A base can never block LoS by that definition. The bases are a non-factor. If they were the rule would be simple. Check a line doesn't intersect a base or intervening terrain. Maybe I'm missing something where they mention bases. Please point that out.

@d6wounds 2 ай бұрын

It says you can’t draw line of sight over or through another model (without any more detail than that), so most are interpreting this as you can’t draw line of sight through a unit (close/open order), even if you can see through a gap between the models, because it goes over the bases of the models.

@pinch1loaf 2 ай бұрын

@@d6wounds There is a clarification in the note that states "units" always block line of sight, so the interpretation that it is the bases is a contrived one. Perhaps that was the intent, but it's not what is written. Would it be a simplification? I believe so. Especially when you have people modelling large and taller bases. It does get a bit janky concerning certain things like skirmishers though. A clarification as to what entails "the model" would do much to clear that up.

@another4868 2 ай бұрын

Why can’t it just be monstrous creatures can see over everything apart from vortexes and impassable terrain, monstrous inf and all cavalry can see over standard infantry. It’s literally a sentence.

@d6wounds 2 ай бұрын

Exactly, seems so simple to add in to the rules

@NateFinch 2 ай бұрын

Hills work that way because they are simulations. The top of the terrain piece is flat so models dont fall over, but the top of the hill it represents is not flat. So, models nearer the "top" (generally the middle for a round hill, or the table edge for a semi-circular hill) will be assumed to be higher. It simulates a real hill. Should you talk to your opponent about where the high point of any hill is? Yes. But it does actually make sense. The height/sight rules are just a simplification so you don't have to reference a chart about which model types can see over which. Instead there's just one - you're either Big, or you're not. The end. It woukd be silly to actually look from model height because then different models of the same unit would be able to see different things. You could put all your archers on tall rocks on their bases and be able to shoot over people. No thanks. The woods providing cover if half your models are in them makes sense. Again, the tabletop is a simulation, an approximation. Half the guys in the unit aren't just standing still in the open. The edge of the woods aren't a clear line. The unit is moving along the edge of the woods, going in and out. So, yeah, partial cover. There's gotta be some cutoff, right? If you had one toe sticking out, would that be partial cover? What about 1/10th of models? They had to pick some proportion, so they chose half. As for that "stoop down" phrase, it only matters for terrain interfering with line of sight. Models are effectively infinitely tall unless you or the other model is a large target. There's actually nothing in this I find confusing at all. It all makes sense if you don't assume the table is an exact representation of the battle.

@ClydeMillerWynant 2 ай бұрын

" It simulates a real hill." If that was the case then if the centre (i.e. the high point) of the hill is between your unit and an enemy unit you shouldn't be able to see them. You can though, the hill only varies in height if two units from the same side choose to stand on it as far as I can tell, at least for line of sight, and then the higher unit gets to see over the top of the hill as well as over the other unit if it happens to be stationed further back than the top of the hill - please correct me if I'm wrong.

@d6wounds 2 ай бұрын

I agree with most of what you said there except it’s not half of the unit as the cutoff point for partial cover. That’s 8th Ed. Old World is ‘up to half’ so yes 1/10th of models in a wood is partial cover. As for models seeing over other models, of course it’s a simplification to make the game smoother. But they already have exceptions for large targets and swarms so they could literally just add in one more sentence: monstrous infantry and cavalry can see over regular infantry and war beasts.

@NateFinch 2 ай бұрын

@@ClydeMillerWynant That's a good point, but again, it's a simplification. You don't want to have to write a rule about whether you're facing downhill or uphill.... To be fair, I would probably have ruled that everyone on the hill blocks everyone else's line of sight because it's simpler and easier to. understand. But I can understand what they were thinking with the current rule.

@ClydeMillerWynant 2 ай бұрын

@@NateFinch I can too, just think it's funny that to solve the line of sight issue for two units on the same hill they came up with something that logically means that in some cases two units on the same hill shouldn't really be able to see each other at all - something that actually would make sense to anyone who has walked up a hill, but would of course make a right mess of trying to play the game so has to be ignored. Think there's a higher ground combat res bonus as well isn't there (?) which sort of means this was the case even without the line of sight thing anyway. Warhammer hills are of course barely more than bumps in the ground when you think about how large they are in comparison to very small units of man-sized troops (or two-three times man-sized ones for that matter) - anything anyone would actually call a 'hill' in real life would be more than big enough to fight entire battles on with the small skirmish armies from the game. I can see why most of the rules discussed in the video are what they are, but agree with Simon's descriptions of how some of them (especially the one where arc of sight interacts with cover so that the more of the unit you can see the more likely you can be to have a shooting penalty for cover) do lead to some unfortunate slightly silly/unfair outcomes.