Loss and Nerfs in Warhammer: The Dark Angels Saga

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Podger

5 ай бұрын

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Пікірлер: 149
@David-li4uw
@David-li4uw 5 ай бұрын
Dude, Dark Angels are being ran as green generic SMs. Their index rules suck and nobody uses them. The codex is a nerfed index. LVO is meaningless for DAs. The strikemaster came out in 9th edition and now it's gone. Is that "normal?" Quit making excuses for them.
@r.j.macready
@r.j.macready 5 ай бұрын
DA might have had a 55% win rate at LVO but it wasnt from in faction options outside of Azrael. The best lists are generic space marines painted green. People just wanted their unique units/detachments/abilites to be rewarding to play and build.
@francisjeffrey6496
@francisjeffrey6496 5 ай бұрын
I don't think they're using the new codex at LVO. It's not even out yet.
@xmaracx
@xmaracx 5 ай бұрын
Yeah afaik, dark angels rn are fine...as long as you dont use their own detachment. Furthermore, arent the strongest DA lists merely shoot heavy lists with azrael? No unique DA things outside of him. So looking at that win rate misses the point entirely and just drives the dagger further. I dont care about winning, i just want to run a fluffy dark angel list with dark angel units and rules, not regular SM with a powerful DA character. And now i get to struggle more! But its okay, the meta hound lists are doing well! Ykno, the ones that dont use DA rules...because theyre bad...but sure nerf DA rules further.
@PT84
@PT84 5 ай бұрын
Dark Angels players want to use their detachment rules. They wan to play the DA models they've painted up. No one wants to play Space Marines with Azreal, which is the only viable Dark Angels build.
@r.j.macready
@r.j.macready 5 ай бұрын
@@francisjeffrey6496 no one claimed it was?
@xmaracx
@xmaracx 5 ай бұрын
@@PT84 i dont necessarily care about winning, sure id like the rules to be better, but okay, you dont want codex creep, you leave them unchanged, sucks why is it worse though, why did you nerf what is already weak further
@chillaxe2941
@chillaxe2941 5 ай бұрын
They nerfed Unforgiven task force for God's sake lol. This codex is not good.
@evantaylor9566
@evantaylor9566 5 ай бұрын
I think a lot of people got their hopes up when the Black Templars got their entire range revamped in 9th edition without changing much.
@primarchvulkan5097
@primarchvulkan5097 5 ай бұрын
Dark Angels came out of this big tournament week with a whopping 37% competitive win rate before these nerfs even drop
@businessmanginger9681
@businessmanginger9681 5 ай бұрын
In my opinion, I don't think it's fair to use the recent LVO stats as a benchmark for the DA's overall winrate when the codex was sent to print at least a year ago, I find it almost impossible to believe GW got the results of the LVO and sent the updated stat lines to the printers and had them ready for preorders the following day. Even the last two MetaWatch updates in November and October showed DA below a 50% winrate so I still don't believe this is in reaction to recent tournament results in 10th. I hope I didn't misunderstand your point of bring up that data but I personally don't see a direct correlation. I really hope all of this gets changed with the balance dataslate which will probably alleviate alot of fears we are having.
@chaseherrington
@chaseherrington 5 ай бұрын
I think this controversy is highlighting much deeper systematic issues that people are frustrated with. Atomizing the issues makes this look overblown and unnecessary outrage. But I think for fans and customers, this is the pinnacle of everything wrong with 40K at the moment. - Rules unbalanced in a negative way but it would be an issue if they were over powered - Flavor of the army being removed for generic and lesser, more “modern” models - Rules being sold for way too much that will be inevitably be updated Hard to argue DA fans and the those potential interested should be happy and not disappointed
@Gridash
@Gridash 5 ай бұрын
Yeah and "win rates" don't mean anything in terms of balancing an army and all of its units/components. It just means that somebody in a tournament managed to pull his weight using a cheese build vs other people that do the exact same thing. The simple truth is, 40k has too many moving components, it's not a very good game for competitive play and yet this is exactly what GW is focusing on. It started in 8th and has only become worse tbh. The use of stratagems is just lazy rules writing and the refusal of using alternating activations just adds to the problem. Once you've played a game with alternating activations, you'll know how archaic 40k feels like in comparison. Also, complexity doesn't necessary equal depth, the 40k rules are very very clunky.
@retributionangel5078
@retributionangel5078 5 ай бұрын
Bro the new models suck Innercircle are lame as Vets with Powerswords. They all look like metal Ezekiel from 1996 Termies just got fat. And you only get the bad shooty version of them. The Primarch is the only cool "new" model. The Dex is nothing but a sales control messure. Devalueing the old models you bought.
@solomonoftm
@solomonoftm 5 ай бұрын
I've played Dark Angels since 2011. All of my units are first born. Most of it is now worthless and GW is trying to get me to buy new SM models. I don't want to. I like my army. I've put years of work from building, painting, and playing them. Now? I'm currently going through them to sell them or convert for 30k. It's sad that so much of my stuff is now obsolete. Sorry, GW, I'm not going back to 40k
@brettmal5298
@brettmal5298 5 ай бұрын
Potentially 78 models from an army that are now useless, 3 command squads- 30 useless models… can only use 15 knights now not 30 so that’s 15 more models people have that are useless… Deathwing termites with assault gear, another 30 useless models unless you wanna convert them to things you already have… 3 potential strikemasters… if you put time and love into that kinda army I can see why some people would be pissed… let alone the nerfs on top
@chadrickvon9383
@chadrickvon9383 5 ай бұрын
What's the points cost on this list? Or are you just assuming someone has max numbers of all units possible. Even if it is 7000 pts of termies...
@khorneflakes2175
@khorneflakes2175 5 ай бұрын
Anyone running around with 30 Deathwing knights should not expect to be able to field all 30 of them in a 1500 or even 2000 pts game.
@drunkenpainter
@drunkenpainter 5 ай бұрын
I will just continue to use the Index
@piotrjeske4599
@piotrjeske4599 5 ай бұрын
As a fellow terminator enjoyer , with two friends playing (or rather played) White Scars and Death Wing, only thing l can say is condolances. Also l can't agree with the bloat removal. How is taking a unit if sm scouts and turning them in to four separate units , on top of scouts, bloat removal? 3 phobos Lt AND a phobis cpt? What GW did was not bloat removal, they just made it so people have to rebuy armies. They even removed all the cool relic stuff, they advertised as both fir w40k and HH. All marines are fun to play? Well my friend a WS player since 5th ed just quit, because his whole unit collection suddenly dropped to one model legal, a bijer chaplain. And even that was a stretch , because his chaplain was not primaris . Gained stuff Lion that is impossible to buy outside of UK/US? A unit of worse blade guard? If gw wants DA player to buy new new stuff then make DW and RW , that is the two things people pick DA for. And not to play green ultramarines
@fallenfossl
@fallenfossl 5 ай бұрын
Talonmaster used to be a kit btw. In 3rd?! Or 4th edn it was called the Master of the Ravenwing, i got the box somewhere 😅
@saeklas
@saeklas 5 ай бұрын
They've certainly needed to pair down models, the codex bloat is real. But having 50% of my Ravenwing becoming unusable feels bad. Thinking about it a bit more reasonably I might just scrap the outriders I have and use the old bikers for them instead. Attack bikes to ATV is tricky though as they're smaller. Actually wouldn't be surprised if the current black knights would be replaced soon enough
@thebaron2277
@thebaron2277 5 ай бұрын
Black Knights and Samael will probably get their refresh in 11th edition along with Ezekiel
@Specter-wt1wt
@Specter-wt1wt 5 ай бұрын
i have magnetized my 19 attack bikes heavy weapon making some gatling guns for them using terminator assault cannons and some bits and bobs. still my ravenwing army lost 19 land speeders, 19 attack bikes 60 bikes, 3 talonmasters, my deathwing "lost 3 strikemasters, 3 champions, 3 apotecharies and 3 ancients also "lost" 3 spartans, 3 special variants. that dont really matter to me. but when they also the nerf allmost all the unique units overall the codex is a giant lost opportunity and a major letdown, and the worst is that all the new kits are just worse than compareable vanilla units.
@Ed-ss1uh
@Ed-ss1uh 5 ай бұрын
So new players who bought ravenwing armies in 9th should just be okay with the loss of support? What a ridiculous excuse for a money hungry company.
@Optionvideo209
@Optionvideo209 5 ай бұрын
Play them anyway. Most of us don't play tournaments anyway we play games a hobby shop or with friends. Everyone will understand when you show up with landspeeders and attack bikes.
@Crack_the_Skye
@Crack_the_Skye 5 ай бұрын
​@@Optionvideo209this. Use your index cards.
@Carpatheon.
@Carpatheon. 5 ай бұрын
I love the new Darkangels models, but OMG the rules..... don't think they are very playable right now. Even points drops wont fix everything in my opinion. I think that making all options free for 40k now is causing some baked in cost increases for units.
@josepheastham9717
@josepheastham9717 5 ай бұрын
Updating a unit's box to have way less options is just not cool. I went from having the option to make a Deathwing Knight, Apothecary, Champion, Ancient, Strikemaster Lt, Assault, or Shooty Terminator in the box, to just Knight. Combine with nerfs and you don't expect annoyance?
@retributionangel5078
@retributionangel5078 5 ай бұрын
With GW its always the customers fault Thats why they dont like Vet Players and dont want people playing in store. They dont want People telling new Players what Units suck and not to buy!
@sonicwingnut
@sonicwingnut 5 ай бұрын
The thing is if they just released say, new Death Company and gave them all the top weapons currently (thunder hammers, inferno pistols, power fists) and left out the crappy chainswords and bolt pistols that literally no one is going to take anyway with free wargear, there would be no complaint. The problem is they're likely invalidating models while simultaneously going "here's a brand new version that is objectively more boring and worse in game". Personally finding 30K much more interesting as everything has a ton of options that aren't in the box but either there's comprehensive upgrade kits or players are actually encouraged to kitbash things. Units where the kit 100% represents all available options are eventually good for meta chasers and competitive players, but they're bad for hobbyists, kitbashers, narrative players etc who all see customising their army as an important part of the hobby. In fact a huge amount of 40K KZfaqrs I've followed have made it obvious they'd enjoy Heresy more, but because 40K gets all the views none of them are willing to jump ship.
@Andonios88
@Andonios88 5 ай бұрын
It’s also tough for us normies to jump ship when your local gaming community only plays 40K or AoS!
@sonicwingnut
@sonicwingnut 5 ай бұрын
@@Andonios88 this is true although seems a lot of gaming communites now have an active Heresy community - in fact I heard recently that 30K is more popular than AoS and my local scene reflects that - never hear anyone talk about AoS but there's always a bit of Heresy going on.
@icehellionx2226
@icehellionx2226 5 ай бұрын
@@sonicwingnut I've got a bit of a counter argument for the all in one box thing. Yes for us long time guys kitbashing and narrative are fun and everything. However, I always remember being younger, saving up for a box of devastators, going online and asking what the best way to build them out was and every single person said you needed to buy 2 boxes for them to be worth anything. Have a box by itself be a valid unit gameplay wise lowers the buy in price for the unit which gets more and more important as the pricing goes up.
@sonicwingnut
@sonicwingnut 5 ай бұрын
@@icehellionx2226 perhaps although Horus Heresy has an answer for that - release a tactical squad and then for their devastator equivalent have a big upgrade kit that lets you make 10 of everything in it. The other option is admittedly what they're doing with Primaris and have things like Hellblasters, Infernus marines and to a lesser extent Eliminators and Eradicators, where there's actually all the options in there and most special weapons squads now carry all of the same weapon. The problem is more when you get to the elite units that traditionally gave a lot more character and customisation options.
@profsrlojohn635
@profsrlojohn635 5 ай бұрын
I would argue leaving the chainsword behind would be removing a useful option, and I would complain. The Chainsword has the most attacks, and while it can’t cut through MEQ, it’ll plow through GEQ and GEQ+, the role it’s traditionally been meant for. Just because we overpay for it now doesn’t mean the option is bad
@mpangelu
@mpangelu 5 ай бұрын
Clarification about the Talonmaster. You may not have been involved / aware of the DA from back then. The Talonmaster was waht Sammael used to be. That was his kit, it wasn't just an upgrade sprue. Then they gave him the option of jetbike or speeder. And becaues of piss poor vehicles rules over the editions Most people just favored the jetbike. So they created the talonmaster to use up the speeder version of sammael instead of before where you picked "Sammael on speeder, or sammael on bike"
@cassiecaradoc2070
@cassiecaradoc2070 5 ай бұрын
I miss my flying land raider (back in 7th edition it had 14 front and side armor like a Land Raider), but yeah, I think most people saw the writing on the wall for the Talonmaster when they started phasing out firstborn stuff. Maybe in 11th we'll get special Ravenwing Stormspeeders and we'll see the Talonmaster come back.
@charliedavis3931
@charliedavis3931 5 ай бұрын
I was getting into dark angels last year and was enjoying it I'm glad that the lion is the only dark angel specific unit I bought.
@Miniscape-wh40k
@Miniscape-wh40k 5 ай бұрын
Thanks fella. Good video. I don't think old models are ever obsolete, unless you restrict yourself to the latest competitive 40k scene. Old editions and one page rules suit those old relics fine. Take care buddy.
@GlitchGlitchGlitch12
@GlitchGlitchGlitch12 5 ай бұрын
Amazing 💀, I just got into this hobby, painting my first Dark Angels intercessors ever. I have the combat patrol, azrael, lion and terminators new in box waiting to be built and painted. LMAO
@stemes2860
@stemes2860 5 ай бұрын
That's nothing in comparison to a lot of people 😆 Make sure you paint what you have before you buy more!
@LittleIAO
@LittleIAO 5 ай бұрын
I think my favorite part of 10e has been the ability to run any detachment you want, inside some small restrictions, regardless of how your army is painted. You will definitely get access to at least one viable detachment for your Dark Angels. However at least in the short term the Dark Angels rules specifically are looking harder to use.
@alternateaccount6913
@alternateaccount6913 5 ай бұрын
don't lose hope my friend, rules and the meta change every few months. I might be coping but hopefully GW will buff us
@AzkuulaKtaktu
@AzkuulaKtaktu 5 ай бұрын
That's a great start
@retributionangel5078
@retributionangel5078 5 ай бұрын
Ebay is your friend
@vintageman91
@vintageman91 5 ай бұрын
Looked at the sight and did not see any apothecary bits, no Halbred of Kaliban, no flail, no powerfists,no cyclone missile luncher, no chainfists and barely any stormbolters but i guess they dont show it all yet.
@piscinaiv7937
@piscinaiv7937 5 ай бұрын
GW: We know you've bought stuff from us in the past but you aren't giving us enough money right now so let's just make your old stuff useless. Please also buy the out of date book as soon as it leaves the publisher if the scalpers chose to leave any behind.
@Twr0740
@Twr0740 5 ай бұрын
It's not about wanting it all. It's the idea of buying models and being told that they don't work anymore. It feels like a waste of money to a certain extent. I don't play, only paint and collect so though this doesn't effect me I can see the players point.
@alohi79
@alohi79 5 ай бұрын
I mean.. they put a gravis captain in the new DA box when there are no units it can attach to in it. There are some very solid reasons to consistently flame GW.
@bulldozer360
@bulldozer360 5 ай бұрын
I can't listen to this drivel anymore. You got something new why are you complaining blah blah... The rules got WORSE! You can always fix points with balance dataslate, but terrible rules largely stay in place for an entire edition! Why the hell do i want to spend more money buying something that i know will be unfun to play on the table? Don't try and gas light people into thinking angry players are just upset because they lost their units. No one would have cared if what we got was equally playable ...
@michaelutt4035
@michaelutt4035 5 ай бұрын
Are Terminator apothecaries still usable even if the command squad isn't? Also, I wish I wasn't broke at the moment cause I really wanted to get the new box.
@vrkhel
@vrkhel 5 ай бұрын
No, they do not exist in the codex at all
@mpangelu
@mpangelu 5 ай бұрын
"you can't have everything you want all the time".. ***Unless you are eldar
@OrderthruChaos97
@OrderthruChaos97 5 ай бұрын
As someone who's played DA since 6th, we've never been a great army. 9th was something of an anomaly in that regard. Returning to being a weaker army isn't really all that surprising nor is it really my main gripe with the release. I'm used to playing the faction when we've had bad rules. Hell, in 8th were were consistently a bottom 3 army for almost the entire edition. What makes this release frustrating is that it comes after large swaths of the range were invalidated by discontinuing older firstborn kits, hitting Ravenwing harder than most marines factions. On top of that 10th already feels bad to play since it lost so much of the depth that has historically characterized 40k. And this is coming after the game was already significantly simplified by the hard reset when jumping from 7th to 8th. So we're left with a core game that's a shadow of its former self, lacking much of the character it had in previous editions. On top of that GW has decided to invalidate large chunks of existing player armies removing both units and wargear options rendering those minis worthless in 10th, and to top it all off they decided to hand out widespread nerfs arbitrarily. The entire release just feels bad since there is no part of the DA playerbase that is unaffected by these negative elements. Codices are always when depth is added to a faction, diversifying options, and ultimately making the faction stronger than it was before. This is why codex creep exists and always has existed. It is a natural product of the writing cycle. The way it is combatted is not by removing options and nerfing existing ones when the depth from the update is added. All that does is make the faction feel brittle, thin and stretched. Rather, you plan for creep, testing and playtesting against a set standard so that when you make the jump to a full ruleset you are ascending to meet a certain standard. Creep gets out of control when there is no standard, like in 9th and every new book ends up stronger than the last. The issue with 10th is it is an overcorrection from 9th. GW wants to control the power creep but does not understand that it is natural. This is because Robin Cruddace and his team are frankly, incompetent, and he should have been demoted from team lead after 8th. By attempting to deny creep entirely, factions that are expanded by a codex must still maintain their pre-codex strength in the grand scheme of things. This means that everything across the board must be nerfed to account for everything new coming in that is added to the faction. So a faction will never creep up and the only potential for creep is actually in the opposite direction. The issue here is that you still aren't testing against a set standard, just going in with the goal of maintaining parity, so you can still have wild creep, just backwards. The other issue is that this approach ends up limiting what you can do with what you are given to the degree that literally everything feels bad. Comp is not intellectually or strategically challenging, and narrative play is no longer compelling since nothing plays in a way that at least somewhat reflects their lore. TL;DR Fire Cruddace he's always sucked and until GW can get their heads out of their asses, play 30k or an older edition. If you want something mostly untainted by Cruddace, you'll need to go back to something before 8th edition
@flag5enemyinsight397
@flag5enemyinsight397 5 ай бұрын
if you have a copy of 9th edition then your DAs never truly went away. Meanwhile I am rediscovering 7th edition, before the 40k end times.
@Blubb_Blubber
@Blubb_Blubber 5 ай бұрын
I just want good rules for my units!!! Talonmaster DW Command Squad DW Terminators Interrogator Chaplain Both Flyers Both Speeders Company Veterans (the old felxible version) It's frustrating when you get dozens of bikes, trikes and landspeeders retired. Just sell me overpriced upgrade sprues for everything that is missing now! I want to use the models I have beautifully customized! Who cares about LVO...
@johannestafelmaier616
@johannestafelmaier616 5 ай бұрын
Looking forward to see you paint that box! Maybe it's a new starting point for actually finishing models :) You are already a very good painter, it's pretty perfect for a "small" army project since there aren't too many models in the box.
@gamesisfunny
@gamesisfunny 5 ай бұрын
The thing is this. Why am i supposed to get excited for this new codex? There is no reason for me to want to buy it. Either units got nerfed or they were removed entirely. It's just a huge missed oppertunity. They could have given units new and interesting rules but they didn't. Instead we got a worse version of what we already had.
@johannes8270
@johannes8270 5 ай бұрын
The thing is this: Enough people buy it anyways. So gw does not care. Sadly.
@majmellow
@majmellow 5 ай бұрын
The dark angels are the first and best of all the legions. Of course they are going to nerf our rules. Emperor forbid we should out shadow the ultra smurfs! Play the fluff not the meta
@ironmonkey349
@ironmonkey349 5 ай бұрын
in competitive, a dark angel list is a base space marine list, mostly gladius typical units, but with Azrael and some knights. I think they dont want dmg 3 anymore and it's fine, just nerf all factions at the same time, not one at a time!
@Andonios88
@Andonios88 5 ай бұрын
I was likewise surprised people lost it over the points? The points for the new codexes have been updated at every release if I’m not mistaken. I feel GDub sees scaling options back for many of these kits as killing two birds with one stone. It makes the game easier to balance and it allows noobs to be able build the load out from the rules. Which kind of kills it for me, I haven’t been in the hobby long but the nuance of building armies was a big interest for me. I need a more complex game to hold my interest in the actual game, but I have to play 40K as it is the only game of the kind played in my area.
@paulyg405
@paulyg405 5 ай бұрын
I think this is one of the reasons that Heresy and now Old World got rebooted, they want to move 40k in the direction that you're suggesting, and the older style games give somewhere to go for the people who are more interested in simulation in the rulesets and cruncy list building with 100s of options.
@bulldozer360
@bulldozer360 5 ай бұрын
Scaling options back is one thing....actively downgrading an army is other. What reason do I have to be excited about this overpriced release now? So many options gutted, and the terminators got vastly worse rules than before.
@nemomou1409
@nemomou1409 5 ай бұрын
Once again the most sensible and calm voice in the Warhammer community. It's a little tiresome hearing the same groups of people complain every single time GW changes or doesn't change something. It occurs every time GW moves the lore forward, updates miniatures, streamlines the game, rebalances armies, or even when rebooting an entire game system (Warhammer Fantasy) - GW cannot make everyone happy, and nor should they.
@ridgerunnersp
@ridgerunnersp 5 ай бұрын
I think from GW perspective, the general consumer (who actually make up the majority of their market) aren't going to pour over rules before buying into an army. They are going to go with what they think is cool and aren't too worried about the minutiae of stat checks and math hammer.
@OK-hl6qd
@OK-hl6qd 5 ай бұрын
Good take. Realistic and down to earth.
@zevriungames7463
@zevriungames7463 5 ай бұрын
I think it’s a good change with the strikemaster and talon master with the idea of no model no rules. Your strikemaster can very much be a proxy for a terminator captain imo. Now I am disappointed by the “power level” of some units. Inner circle companions being more squishy bladeguard is unfortunate
@efinel
@efinel 5 ай бұрын
I'm not worried about the points, there's just no point in putting them in the books. If you're going to have a 'divergent' chapter have it stand alone from the astartes book. (Then we don't have to buy multiple books). They did well with admec that it wasn't op on release - great. However, the necrons have some crazy powerful rules in their book
@RedHandedDaniel
@RedHandedDaniel 5 ай бұрын
i love the models, and never care for the rules at all. but i love your level headed take on these things.
@YouWinAFREEiPOD
@YouWinAFREEiPOD 5 ай бұрын
I've always found it very strange that in the sphere of wargaming Warhammer gets a pass for deflating your purchases by removing their rules content as units in the game, when I'm not entirely convinced that's normal anywhere else. Either way, thank you Space Marine players for single-handedly funding the entire game with your perpetual subscription based army. 👍
@Driz7ziahs
@Driz7ziahs 5 ай бұрын
Well something similar happened to BT with the launching of 9th...
@stuartworthington8061
@stuartworthington8061 5 ай бұрын
Good video. I was sad to see my old units go away, but i was prepared and it makes sense to lose Talonmasters and the command squad with the new model releases. I was, however, really dissapointed to then see all the remaining units be so poorly written. I can let my old stuff go much more happily if it's being replaced by something fun to use, but that currently won't be the case ☹
@chadrickvon9383
@chadrickvon9383 5 ай бұрын
Rules change. But the lack of a sweet flail is a big whiff...
@radeadcool
@radeadcool 5 ай бұрын
Been playing since RT. The fact they still do misprints for a "quailtiy" product is just insain.
@klo45pl
@klo45pl 5 ай бұрын
Im certain by 12th edition there will not be a single firstborn. Maybe even by 11th
@alexshingleton7213
@alexshingleton7213 5 ай бұрын
That'd require GW to update grey knights. As much as I like GK, I know that isn't happening for a long time. Gonna be left with old scale terminators for years
@danielfenton9742
@danielfenton9742 5 ай бұрын
@@alexshingleton7213 FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
@paulyg405
@paulyg405 5 ай бұрын
In the past competitive 40k has suffered from trying to force a more narrative ruleset with an absolute tonne of options into a competitive space where people are looking for a smoother ruleset with less/no 'loophole exploiting' lists and stuff like that. So I see this as inevitable really, and from a rules design perspective I can see why, you'd never be able to get something like 7th edition into a balanced and competition friendly place. Too many moving parts! Hence it got binned and 40k is now a much simpler and more streamlined game. I think GW are hoping to sell 40k as a fun and straightforward competitive game with nice modern minis, and that gamers who can't click with that will go and play Heresy instead.
@timothyharnedy4495
@timothyharnedy4495 5 ай бұрын
Pity the 40K xenos player who wants a few options and encouragement for kitbashing. I guess no-one wants to be the spurned customer, and so it can always be a bit difficult when a company changes what they are doing to please a group of customers that isn't you. But I've had quite a lot of practise dealing with the realisation that I'm not the centre of the universe. I hear there's a fan project to create an Ork army list for Horus Heresy, so the community can always make its own fun.
@Andonios88
@Andonios88 5 ай бұрын
@@timothyharnedy4495pity the Xenos player and the Marine player that wants to fight the Xenos!
@paulyg405
@paulyg405 5 ай бұрын
@@timothyharnedy4495 yeah it's a bit like Old World - you can have your more interesting/crunchier ruleset back, but not if you play x y z faction. And playing old editions or making up house rules isn't for everyone. A friend and I playtested the Panoptica Eldar list for Heresy and it was great, they're planning on an Ork, ancient Necrons and a few other things. Definitely worth keeping an eye on. I am a bit surprised that GW haven't come up with some sort of oldhammery spinoff for 40k that would give them a chance to sell the older models again, and offer a more narrative rule of cool style experience. I am wondering if they'll do a scouring era Heresy spinoff or something similar
@colinbielat8558
@colinbielat8558 5 ай бұрын
​@paulyg405 oh they will eventually, they will change the name of current 40k to 42k and make the old style system 40k.
@LittleIAO
@LittleIAO 5 ай бұрын
Well this is an interesting one to me. Both everything around the release and also your video commentary here. We've had specific discussion over kits and kit design, which I think is also kind of an evergreen topic in a way. The Terminator models in just about every case are one of the updates I'm extremely positive on. These new Deathwing are more of the same and I'm quite happy. I would prefer there still be a Deathwing Command and Strikemaster atm but I do suspect they could return. So I am not unhappy with the models and I also did expect to lose the Talonmaster. I think the largest amount of disappointment with this release is all rules related and it does feel like you're not really hitting on that here. Just a minor acknowledgement. So I think that's an interesting topic to focus in on at some point.
@piotrjeske4599
@piotrjeske4599 5 ай бұрын
People had melee terminators in their units. Stuff like TH/SS termis and a cyclon. The DA termi sgt has to take a power sword(regular sgts can take fists and chainfists) . There is more to the changes then no strike master or no Command Squad.
@SkiSummer
@SkiSummer 5 ай бұрын
I'm not going to be bothered by losing stuff. The biggest upset really is how out of touch the power of this codex is compared to say necrons which have just had a codex released. The damage output on terminator units is terrible, they're tanky anvils, but they can't kill anything outside of chaff tbh. These models look great, but they're borderline unplayable with the nerfs - I can't play the lion in my local meta because he's just not competitive enough for the meta as it stands. Unless he takes a huge points cut I still won't be able to play it without feeling like i'm playing at a disadvantage. This video just comes across as a GW apologist video.
@Eganize
@Eganize 5 ай бұрын
Hey GW: Wish you weren't so f*cking awkward bud.
@KneeCapHill
@KneeCapHill 5 ай бұрын
A small price to pay for those gorgeous models. Blood Angels are shit on top of not having 1 dedicated re release for their units. (no an upgrade sprue doesn't count)
@kaijuh
@kaijuh 5 ай бұрын
why is everyone in shambles lmao
@aldinviray2970
@aldinviray2970 5 ай бұрын
So very few models needed for a 2000 point army. From a consumer stand point this is a good way for new players to start a new army and is designed to be non-competitive. GW knows this, and is deliberate on their part. People who own a lot of these models are sadly NOT the target market for this box.
@danielb8533
@danielb8533 5 ай бұрын
Well said.. I dread the day my Deathwatch get a lock
@vortex21jw
@vortex21jw 5 ай бұрын
Really good informative video. But PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE move your mic away from your mouth. The noise of your tongue and lip smacking is really off-putting
@podger_minis
@podger_minis 5 ай бұрын
yes sorry about that I have ordered a pop filter
@buryitdeep
@buryitdeep 5 ай бұрын
So GW wants Ultramarines but just painted green.
@TheBonerJamz03
@TheBonerJamz03 5 ай бұрын
get this guy some water to drink.
@martinsleight321
@martinsleight321 5 ай бұрын
To be clear, I want to buy the new models, I want to buy anything with a hint of dark angels about them, and I want to play them. That becomes a whole lot less exciting when you find out the companions are far inferior to stock bladeguard, who's weapons are also better than the swords of the deathwing knights (Yeah, really) and the fact that this is the third Lion profile we've had since his release is absurd. They seem to flip flop between remembering what a shield does and what it doesn't. Right now it's back to hurting people and not actually reducing damage on him, which it should be doing. If Lion was on competitive tables then I'd understand, but he frankly wasn't and for those who like Primarch vs Primarch battles with their friends, it's frustrating to have most of the army's coolest units get their legs kicked out from underneath them. THAT SAID - points and rules are temporary, HOPEFULLY GW realize that a sword one and a half times the size of a space marine should probably do more damage. Also those LVO ratings aren't for 'Dark Angel's, not in the way most dark angels players play them. I don't think I've seen a competitive player do well with DA elites lately. It's all stock SM codex units.
@Hurricanelive
@Hurricanelive 5 ай бұрын
Just more GW pushing the rules around to force meta sales where they want. It will always be about sales which the competitive community have veto power over. Ahh, the good old days of a friendly company encouraging player agency and imagination, those days now seem like a million miles away.
@mpangelu
@mpangelu 5 ай бұрын
Games workshop is antyhign but consistent. They do not often take into consideration feedback from non in house playtesting, and had already sent the items off to print before getting actual feedback. A lot of their interactions and items are short term sighted vs long term. They many times always try flouting "we are a model company, not a game company" But their rules writing is what pushes their sales and they know that and we know that. There are lots of ways to get some good balance, and yeah some codexes are going to have bad match ups. But GW is so hit or miss on just hitting in-codex balance. There are so many units that are "auto include". if you have a unit that is auto include, you are doing shitty game design. Making every unit comparable and competitive within codex, makes a better game. Because if you can do that, it will be easier to find some balances between codexes, that will never be perfect. But they are far from even being described as "good"
@ono1381
@ono1381 5 ай бұрын
I wanted to get Deathwing Assault but 370 AUD was too rich for my blood. T_T the AU fun tax is getting real bad
@Nolsie
@Nolsie 5 ай бұрын
As a person looking at the hobby; removing the bloat is awesome, just think that people should be able to use models that have been deprecated as new models with the same base size in tournaments as long as they are labeled reasonably. In most cases this would be humane way to avoid feel bads while fixing some of the enormous bloat of this game.
@profsrlojohn635
@profsrlojohn635 5 ай бұрын
The issue is they’re not addressing the sources of bloat, and just cutting actual meaningful content. To use an example, in 7th edition, the space marine codex had 32 entries, and that’s including Black Templars and UM units (since they were in the codex now). They have upwards of 130 now, and the only thing that has changed, is the addition of Primaris. Firstborn have slightly added to the bloat because they split up the Jump pack and non Jump pack versions of units but otherwise they’ve only lost options like Honor Guard. So instead of merging primaris units to lower the number of datasheets, they cut more efficient firstborn units, or, cut them and replace them with new units that don’t remotely equate to the old. Land Speeders and Attack bikes are probably the best example of this. (Storm speeders and the ATV)
@yoyoimokazaki
@yoyoimokazaki 5 ай бұрын
> Space marine players spend all 9th edition complaining when armies do damage > Space marine players when their armies start to do less damage in line with others Honestly while I feel bad its like what did players expect everyone else would get tuned down units and not marines ? GW should have never listened to players about wanting a edition with less over tuned models.
@geteavnroc2250
@geteavnroc2250 5 ай бұрын
You're making excuses for a multi-million dollar company that just took away our toys. There is no world where you are correct, in this setting.
@johannestafelmaier616
@johannestafelmaier616 5 ай бұрын
GW didn't take away anything. They are offering a new version and supporting that. Back then you bought the models, not the right to forever play with them in tournaments.
@geteavnroc2250
@geteavnroc2250 5 ай бұрын
@@johannestafelmaier616 Sure. If some people like to get screwed, more power to'm. Either way, it doesn't matter. I'm just not buying into it. GL with that.
@archonwut1624
@archonwut1624 5 ай бұрын
Honestly i think the only main complaint i have is that it shouldnt be called a "codex", it should have just been called a "Supplement" and be 100% free online or like $15 for the hardcopy.
@chadrickvon9383
@chadrickvon9383 5 ай бұрын
It bothers me when they name things the same. Inner circle... that enhancement
@SirGalahad_GrailHunter
@SirGalahad_GrailHunter 5 ай бұрын
LVO competitors are not playing the new codex, they are playing the free downloadable data cards for Azrael and playing Codex Space Marine. Come one, once I heard you refer to LVO I didn't listen to anymore of the video.
@smole321
@smole321 5 ай бұрын
They don't need to carry on producing the old kits, just make rules for them. A digital download and say they are game legal still. It's not much effort compared to the millions of hours and millions of pounds spent by hobbyists to buy and build older kits.
@perrybailey5565
@perrybailey5565 5 ай бұрын
There even worse than Grey knight terminators. There s6 x4 attacks minus 2 for 2.
@ralphdutton9334
@ralphdutton9334 5 ай бұрын
Good points in this an your other vids. But this could of been 5mins not 20.
@Khobai
@Khobai 5 ай бұрын
the points arnt the problem. the problem is the absurd scarcity and $ cost. the deletion of existing datasheets. and the fact the codex is just... not... good.
@Cornerboy73
@Cornerboy73 5 ай бұрын
I disagree and feel very much within reasonable bounds to be pissed off at this utterly garbage codex supplement. Yes, I was absolutely going to open my wallet and support the company and hobby but there is NOTHING in this new book that's a win here. I can take some losses but you gotta give us some sort of win. There is nothing to get excited for here; everything in this bland new supplement either got worse, side-graded or removed. Sexy new miniatures? You need to make them worth using to ask for such expensive prices. Tell you what - let's see how long it takes them to come around and balance things out as you suggest. I'm not even looking for a massive turnaround win here; just something to get back up to the mediocrity we had. And that LVO stuff is just SM Codex with Azrael rules btw, it's not this new book. Anyway, I'll go back to angrily painting my new neutered Lion that took me close to 10 months to buy because he was always sold out. I want him to look nice while sitting on my shelf while I wait for 11th edition.
@martinsleight321
@martinsleight321 5 ай бұрын
I think a solid improvement to Knights or Inner Circle companions would cheer the fanbase up a bit. Those swords are so disappointing. No invuln on the Horus Heresy veterans fighting beside the Lion either? Swing and a miss.
@TheTobaccoman
@TheTobaccoman 5 ай бұрын
I think last time I was excited for my codex drop was the guard last year which I had for like a few months before it was gone. GW is crap with game rules. I’d say most want a model refresh when it matters. This refresh was garbage and I don’t think worth the cost of all we lost or replacing everything. Just because it’s not a surprise doesn’t mean it’s all good. This just means you shouldn’t invest at all in GW stuff as it’s a waste of your time and money every new drop. Supporting it is the crapest of shill takes.
@user-ss8bu7qo3s
@user-ss8bu7qo3s 5 ай бұрын
You probably think you sound level-headed and sensible, but you actually sound like a corporate shill trying to convince people who are justifiably upset about needless (and frankly odd) nerfs and cuts that they should just accept predatory and punitive business practices and continue to accept it going forward instead of complaining.
@mpangelu
@mpangelu 5 ай бұрын
I agree withhow some of this came out. The idea of why units are being trimmed from the lines is about them shifting their product design/law suits they lost. They could have just integrated primaris into space marines by just calling them new sculpts. There was never a need to make them different other than the look. And you have many players who obviously woudl have flocked to the purchases for primaris due to the new marine look. But GW isnt' ok with that, they need to force it and force the sales. Just like the abismal Lion release box set with 3 bladeguard for .. "reasons".. Those reasons being htey just wanted to push bladeguard so why not tie thatinto a unit they know will sell out to scalpers within minutes.
@will00117
@will00117 5 ай бұрын
The kit bashing potential alone is enough for me. I genuinely want like 9 of these just for the kit bashing.
@22mshep
@22mshep 5 ай бұрын
Good, should have done this last edition when they had permanent trans human.
@cooperzilkenat3220
@cooperzilkenat3220 5 ай бұрын
I’m pretty content in my decision not to spend any more money on this edition
@freybrand1617
@freybrand1617 5 ай бұрын
The new book really is shit though. I wouldn't even call it trying to curb power creep in books. Nothing was buffed, everything was nerfed, and we have less DA units and the new stuff is hardly better than generic units. If they want us to buy new stuff, make them fucking worth buying.
@HighGroundSand
@HighGroundSand 5 ай бұрын
We should all hold gw hostage by playing 9th edition till they fix there new edition lol
@retributionangel5078
@retributionangel5078 5 ай бұрын
Also it should not be a surprised if people stop to buy GW stuff According to you we should probably be thankfull that GW did not delet more Summy Companies dont need internet fans deffending them.
@nofacetobi726
@nofacetobi726 5 ай бұрын
Well it is your opinion, Its allowed to be bad..😅 Gw getting lazy or their rules guys gone blind and senile.. whatever it is the companys making good money.. They can do better then this.
@johannestafelmaier616
@johannestafelmaier616 5 ай бұрын
We are not talking about how pretty much everything they took away are - in some way - horrible models (proportions etc., not design ideas!). GW want to project an image, and that image, in my eyes understandably - should not include these models. In general I think there is no justification to rotate any range, it's just to make money. However currently I think there is. Say, in 20 years or so, when there are no more models with obviously ridiculous proportions etc., I think the issue will be different. Of course it could be that the minis in 20 years are somehow significantly better than the current ones, however I doubt that. I'd imagine the currently released kits will be (well-liked!) classics by then. Say, minis like Mortarion or Howling Banshees. Generally I feel like GW has really, really stepped up the quality of the kits in recent years, both in terms of design, as well as mould lines etc. It's a new generation of minis and I love how the last marine release, for example, was exclusively updates to existing minis (Terminators, jump pack marines, command squad...).
@kennethphillips6006
@kennethphillips6006 5 ай бұрын
I don’t appreciate GW’s current design philosophy for their army games. I’m stepping out of 40K. The most I have to lose in buying models for a skirmish team is ~$60 rather than ~$300 on rules changes.
@TomBHere
@TomBHere 5 ай бұрын
TBH this is just another example of GW making changes to obsolete a previous product line. The intention is to incentives you to re buy. They've not taken away the models you have, but they've made them just different enough you cant use them in the way most people intended to when they bought them, competitive or not. They aren't gone, you just cant or soon wont be able to play them. Legends rules are pointless, very few people will play or play against legends units. GW own the supply and they own the demand. Or at least they can manufacture the demand with the rules.
@sadis72
@sadis72 5 ай бұрын
Or GW can push editions out to every 5 years, actually test and balance army’s and have all codex out within the first two years to guarantee you have 3 years with your codex. This turn and burn editions is a cancer, I want stability now. GW has not improved much in the the last 3-5 years. 10th is boring, GW can’t win when they rush everything. 10th was obviously rushed.
@BenjaminHolbrook-tz6pw
@BenjaminHolbrook-tz6pw 5 ай бұрын
Making excuses for a codex of nothing but nerfs and loses? Who needs enemies.
@cassiecaradoc2070
@cassiecaradoc2070 5 ай бұрын
Stay strong, brother. 5th Edition was a similarly dark time for the 1st Legion, but the pendulum swung back hard in 6th and 7th. Dark Angels may not be super great this edition (points will balance them, but that just means they'll just be cheap and uninteresting), but 11th is right around the corner (with 10th having just started... maybe GW could stand to have more than 3 years between editions). They took away our Terminator Command Squad guys in 5th, but ended up bringing them back when the new Deathwing Command Squad kit came out in 6th Edition. Since the Deathwing Terminators are just an upgrade sprue presently, they can always backtrack and release a new Deathwing Terminators Kit in 11th.
@Va11idus
@Va11idus 5 ай бұрын
Coping pretty hard in this one, my guy.
@bradp6452
@bradp6452 5 ай бұрын
Pretty much standard gw apologist content. Gw has literally gone to the if you do not like it take your models and go home.
@megazaku1139
@megazaku1139 5 ай бұрын
worst take.
@mikem0ke
@mikem0ke 5 ай бұрын
ngl out of everything im glad they're getting rid of the firstborn units, dear god they need to go and just be replaced with primaris
@zombieruss
@zombieruss 5 ай бұрын
Really disagree with your take on old models, they shouldnt take peoples toys away. Inhavent played 40k since 7th as primaris really pissed me off and every time i get tempted i see shite like this and remember why i stopped playing in the first place. And at no point should a codex or rulebook come out and need to be instantly updated.
@wischfulthinking
@wischfulthinking 5 ай бұрын
Trash take
@podger_minis
@podger_minis 5 ай бұрын
Trash!
@Gloomshimmer
@Gloomshimmer 5 ай бұрын
new codex comes out to strong: *cry* new codex comes out to weak: *cry* new codex comes out perfectly balanced with a 50% winrate: *cry* Must be hard to be a metahunter. Meanwhile normal hobby enjoyers "Oh look cool new models". Laughed hard a while ago, when iron hands were meta and everyone tried to bought them on ebay becuz they are so boring to paint, but every tryhard wants them. Made a couple of thousand bucks these days with easy black plus drybrush iron hands armies sold massively overpriced to meta hunter. Kisses to you.
@ccgear4367
@ccgear4367 5 ай бұрын
Yup, people just being angry for no reason. Just the usual whining.
@francoismarion-eu3jq
@francoismarion-eu3jq 5 ай бұрын
This is what a corporate shill sounds like.
@podger_minis
@podger_minis 5 ай бұрын
Yeah?
@marcanderson6034
@marcanderson6034 5 ай бұрын
10th has been one of the largest letdowns for table top 40K I’ve ever seen. This feckless company is a real issue with “balance” and every time they make something “too strong” they never make anything else strong in other ways to compensate. Uber bland and generic while everyone is trying to get the same game altering rules. On top of all their price hikes and fickle attitude f what’s legal versus not…. I’m done with GW and it’s bullshit.
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