Cloud9 fire coach LS over 'coaching style' differences LOL

No body can win a bs argument against NA thats the only thing NA is good at and btw what Rekkles said is absolutely right and btw LS qualification??! F clown

@@ZABOOMAFOOOOOOOOOOOO didnt C9 want LS because of his "coaching syle" ? then say thats the reason they fired him XD

@@ZABOOMAFOOOOOOOOOOOO They clapped his cheeks the way I liked it

@@ZABOOMAFOOOOOOOOOOOO What Toothbrush does LS need

based

I don't know where your getting that. LS trashes Jensen every chance he gets

@@peeltank7878 For a reason,that guy is bad

@@peeltank7878 I assume he's referring to the larger community and not just LS.

100%. He was BY FAR. The worst performer players this year. For some reason people shield him like he doesn't exist or is part of the reason why C9 was this terrible. Jensen losed all his lanes, got 0 pressure, played by TF, his map awareness was bad, his movement was bad too. He was just so terrible

Ive been saying hes not great since he joined C9, just a copy of Bjergsen with a worse Zilean. Put any avrage LCS midlaner like POE or Ablazeolive on C9 with how their botlane was playing in NA playoffs and it still looks the same.

You gotta take chance on that. risk it for the biscuit.

​@@gabrielcortes8686 Stupidest thing I've heard today. There is no universe where they kill Lissandra there. What's the biscuit exactly? Trading flashes?

@@gabrielcortes8686 What chance are we taking? using flash for stopwatch that's going to be a zhonyas on next back?

but he had hexflash

@@ourlifeisasong he didnt even use stopwatch, its her ult

the map and game state was not that complicate to not be able to understand it live, that's in fact what players should do, rekkless was just wrong ,nothing more to it and no exuses

@@robertoce9811 nope

@@robertoce9811 pov silver player tells me there is a map

Could you also come up with an explanation as to why a pro player, supposedly one of the best, presumably can't come up with the reasonning that you shouldn't push alone without vision on a side of the map where there is nothing to get, for an objective you can't get, when you are 7k gold behind, without watching a replay ?

Sure but this is his profession and seems like something he should get mostly right the first time

They won LCS and made worlds, while TL who arguably spent the most money didn't even make it, I think the system works fine NA just had a bad read on the Meta it happens.

@@glcsander Their problems are not the meta. Their problems are they are worse than their opponents at the video game. The Asian teams are better. All of the players are better at micro. The teams as a whole are somewhat better at macro. How could you possibly watch worlds this year and think, "ah, it's their meta read."?

@@glcsander I guess NA has a bad read on the meta every year

@@glcsander aww that's so sad

@@glcsander keep telling yourself that western teams had bad meta reads every year okay?

hi everyone

hi everyone

hi everyone

Rekless said that the rest of the team were bad bc of not helping jensen.LS is saying that jensen is in the wrong (which he is)

@@ivmen98 He said "They are bad" after the atrocious play bot from Blaber & Fudge (IIRC). Of course he was most likely adding it to the top Azir play.. but still, regardless whichever MACRO/MICRO they are bad.

@@MarxVendetta he was clearly not saying azir was bad because if he did he wouldn't be flaming the team for not rotating to azir if he actually was criticizing azir he would say why is he pushing when no one is there to support him but instead he said why is the team not helping azir implying that azirs play is the correct one and should be followed/supported

@@MarxVendetta .. yes everyone can agree they’re bad but rekkles wasn’t saying the correct thing that made them bad

@@copiipasta1468 Where did I say he was critisizing Azir??? Rekkles clip is on this video.. Isnt it obvious that Im refering to that with "top Azir play"?

match the play and all die doing so... there is no t1 turret to support this push... the moment you go past the midline, you're as good as dead imo. All T1 need to do is match numbers to kill you because they're so far ahead... pushing was the wrong decision

I get your point but there's 2 options: 1. if Jensen wants to push, you communicate to your team so they can be close to you, since u cant see they have barely no vision and the blue trinket in tribush is really useless since there's no objective and you should not push that much by urself being 8k gold down. 2. From the start Jensen should not have pushed. That is how you avoid the problem. Or even if you shove, then u dont push, just wait for the wave to bounce.

@@howdoifindaname2743 oh you right bro thanks next time I make the call for C9 at worlds I’ll do it differently. 🫡

@@CharlieWantsKD I don’t understand these responses. Duh. And I typed that out about communicating what you’re doing with the team but erased it because it’s irrelevant. We’re not here to be coaches, we’re spectators and looking at the decisions C9 made, Rekkles isn’t wrong for his reaction. I was just stating about his point of the view with his take.

@@Meloview I mean in any case, having a base macro level, u know its bad to push when u are losing... If there was an objective there, sure but there's none. Most likely not paying attention? Also if the team didnt rotate top, we should assume that either he didnt communicate or the team didnt care in which both cases is bad lol

He tried but they didn't want saving unfortunately. The systems are working as intended ;)

NA is perfect, they have systems!!

wdym!? bro you're just hating and toxic for 0!???? the systems are perfect and working FeelsWeirdMan .

@@devonmantle6127 Yea LPL/LCK teams are shaking having to play against LS drafting lmao.

@@Gurpreet-sv5zg I mean it's not even just drafting. The above video shows that Jensen pushing the wave got him killed there. Freezing waves mid game when there is no important objective up, among other concepts are what ls preaches not just drafting. C9 doesn't have to take everything ls says as gospel but it would be nice to see them use some of the stuff he taught them for the first few weeks rather than just completely forgetting about it. But yeah u do realise that LPL/LCK teams aren't going to be scared of a draft when they themselves can't even draft?

Runescape and wow guy disagreeing with math and logic?!? No way...

Agree, definitely Jensen at fault in the specific situation here as LS points out, but Rekkle's point stands - why not put Azir strongside, e.g putting Azir bot here instead of Jax because Poppy´s camps are respawning there.

Agreed

i think this makes the most sense

im sorry if my carry is running it down top with no vision and no means to take the tower or gain a lead from that play I'm gonna rotate to my jgler instead who has a crab and camps spawing on that side Ive seen jensen do this similar play of afk splitpushing alone to the point where this is a jensen problem the dude is actually ill when it comes to farming side waves

But I think the key thing is jensen doesn’t let his team play around him. How can you play around someone who’s dead

@@willmollard9078 stupid take he is dead because you didn't play around him how is he supossed to live if you don't play around him. Play around your win con always

I find it hard to believe that it's a team decision considering shoving doesn't makes sense, and nobody is playing as if there is any kind of plan surrounding that judgement. It's just a really bad individual decision from Jenson (and many many players, more often than not - midlaners.)

@@devilix123987 honestly couldnt agree more. what i believe might've happened there is just azir saying "i can get top tier 1 maybe?" and then its radio silence on the coms or just others going "yeah okay" and just going on with their lives xD its just a very weird decision to push that wave at the very least if you HAVE to push it then do it at a pace that lets tristana and leona join you but then why are we 3manning top for a f***ing tier 1 turret? if you try to understand their reasoning it just gets increasingly worse

You could have had Leona and poppy hovering in top side jungle (poppy just cleared raptors, krugs could be given to jax) Maybe you can catch someone or tp with jax and maybe get a pick and an objective. poppy going bot is just useless because you cant achieve anything. Faker can jst sit under tower and clears every wave and you can dive lissandra as poppy/jax. I mean if you are 7k behind you have to try something and topside jungle atleast was an opening

yeah but if they cant make plays anywhere else because they just die to T1 from being so far behind, the space isnt helping them very much. its not as if they can push the wave and then make a play with that huge gold deficit. maybe if they were as good players as T1 they could try but C9 should know theyre not as good

Yeah I mean you're correct. It's just frustrating that this is happening at PRO LEVELS OF PLAY when I see players in my diamond games playing smarter (at least in VERY VERY) in aspects of the game. My biggest issue with pro league is that it feels like we've REGRESSED since season 8. Dopa had a thread talking about this where he said part of the reason he thinks this is because of riot forcing skirmishing more, incentivizing roaming, and also IG winning worlds by dominating solo lanes and skirmishing/1v1ing.

Mhm and as you say there just isn't any meaning or value in the scenario anyways. Where are they getting value from 1 person answering the top push with nothing on the map? 2 team members playing the other half of the map for legitimate reasons. No matter how you spin it, the decision doesn't have any logic, it's just a really awful habit that players seem to have. They forget that taking the minions faster doesn't mean you get gold any faster, it just affects where the waves are positioned, and how they will move. - and these players certainly don't have anywhere on the map that they need to be in a hurry.

Would be a basic principle if everyone agrees on it and it is straight up factual those are 2 opinions clashing. One guy is saying go play around your strongest member or give him space to get stronger while the other one is saying ignore your strongest member cause your red spawns in 30 seconds or the scuttle you can't contest anyway if their junlgee comes and rsther freeze top having 0 tempo on the map and just waiting for t1 to come and enjoy the fre etier 2 turret.

@@XIplupIX it is actually factual. There is nothing to gain by "playing around the strongest member" (Azir) here. He can just NOT hardshove and soak up waves, getting stronger. There is no such thing as tempo for C9 in this scenario, since theres no objective up and they cant control objectives anyways. Keep in mind we are talking only about this specific situation. In general, it might be a good call to play around the Azir, this can be discussed (but thats actually opinion based).

@@o0nick there is always tempo, saying that a team thst is behind should ignore tempo and just let the opponent do everything is the opposite of factual. It is also very visible by the fact that the strongest teams in the world's all play very aggressiv and with tempo. Freezing only works when being so behind ib your exspect your opponent to afk, the moment all 3 lanes freue with such a gold difference you lose vision every where and the fat opponent will get every turret 1 by 1 or free baron. Blaber will get 0 jungle ever

@@XIplupIX This is not soloq where an 8k behind team will magically find pick,every minute that passes with azir freezeing and the rest not inting is a win for the loosing team because the gold difference will mean less as time goes on,only saving grace here is they stall until 4th drake spawns and hope they mechanically outplay or find a 1 in 100 pick,no better options are available when your are this behind.

@@XIplupIX define tempo then

The baron that wasn't even up?

@@hinro yes of course, that's why you should never freeze. Duh...

@@Skimbleshanks73 Poe's law buddy.

Yeah because LS coaching them would've made them win worlds right

@@grootgrrot9552 lol I mean I think they'd do better than 1-5... one thing is for certain it would have made things more interesting... look at GAM back when they had their unique run a few years ago they forced teams to play a different game. Why do NA teams handshake to play the same game but worse?

Would love that too

You would do it the same way it's always been done; sweeper goes first, soft covered by a solo laner, skillshots are fired at bushes. Simultaneously the wave is slow pushing now and enemy has to show or lose tower. Blue wards for baron.

Pro teams often lose complete vision in an area of the map then fight to reclaim it so its not rare or horrible per say, also freezing doesn't necessarily mean you can't leave lane to control an area (if anything the enemy is the one losing minions until the wave crashes, and by then you're only losing the same minions they lost), you're just putting your enemy in a state where they HAVE to take a risk in your jungle

@@banjoleb my man thinks lol is a pve game xd

@@sergiorf3034 not really pve per say, but knowing how to use your environment better than your opponent is like 70% of the game (micro being the other 30%)

Jensen is becoming zven in that regard, least zven's ints are more a timed coinclip then perma

The point that LS is making beyond that though, is that every fucking team does this which is why it’s so infuriating, even teams like T1 refuse to fucking freeze despite how much it can net them over their opponents, so yeah C9 is inting but god it’s fucking hard to watch when literally every other team does it 🥲

Yeah I don't get how C9 will ever win by just taking camps on repeat, T1 is always going to get more resources anyway

Because if Jensen freezes the top wave T1 won't get those minions, if they show up to unfreeze the wave you can fight them under your tier 2 instead of in the middle of bumfuck nowhere

well if u want to make a top side play it's best that u let them push into u lolol. Jensen freezing there would prompt zeus to walk up trying to break the freeze that's how they can get a play off. But hey at that point C9 is probably mentally check out and just going with the motion waiting for the game to end

@@Lardum What? Why would you think T1 would be more intimidated to fight near tier 2? As well, if you're creating a freeze T1 will just take the entire bottom quadrant of the map including tier 2 5v4. This is why this type of thinking is just so NA/EU. Playing defensive and reactive.

@@Gurpreet-sv5zg what's the upside to pushing the wave? C9 can't do shit to Lissandra rn, there's no drake up, there's no real way to punish SKT killing Azir if he's so far up. By keeping the wave at T2 Azir can just abandon his freeze and hide between T2 and T3 if all of SKT show up. If they don't show up he gets to deny them the wave while the rest of his team can chill. Pushing the wave has nothing but downsides, freezing it is at worst neutral

With ult and stopwatch? Yeah, no

there was no way other than faker missplaying that really hard

Mhm it's just a really bad habit, it just seems like an unconscious thing where people feel more productive by taking minions faster (feeling like you are getting gold faster) and being freed up to move around the map when they have literally nowhere to be.

Cover what? T1 sent 3 people to kill Azir. They are 7k gold down. What help would Leona provide? You think Leona + Azir can win 2v3, while being 7k gold down? Leona being there would simply mean 1 more kill for T1. Azir shouldn't push. Period. There's no ifs or buts.

@@CommanderKaiser If you have poppy topside you can tp w jax and then you are 4vs3. But i think they never thought about that there might be 3 people because in NA things like that don't get punished and therefore you can't learn this

why would he want to push tho.

he literally said that fudge was garbage on previous clip

"i hate pancakes" ls "you liking waffles is saving your friend from criticism" you

@@Thelastninjaman He said that fudge and blaber didnt deserve criticism when jensen is playing badly, which isnt true, all 3 should get criticism for playing that bad.

@@its_lio3120 he literally didn't say that ahaha.

@@its_lio3120 dont skip school okok?

Lul...LS left, what are you talking about. They bent over backwards and let him do anything and he still left. He may have great ideas and know everything about league, but he is mentally very weak and cannot handle pressure of any kind

SYSTEMS!

You should be happy for C9

Nothing would change the result. They would arguably been worse.

@@Lana-rs2oi lmao this. C9 is blessed LS is gone. The dude is a washed up hazard.

How you want setup vision when you cant even walk to your jgl cuz you are 7k gold behind.

They have coaches that know that this is bad. Coaching is not everything, and game knowledge is not all there is to coaching.

@@dippythehippy you are right might have nothing to do with LS but now I wonder why IS it so common that it occurs on every team consistently? Do the laners not know? For sure they must know something about this. Do the coaches not push wave management past 10 minutes? guess the world will never know; OR maybe you have the answer, if so I would be interested in hearing it :D.

Tbh, I believe I would coach better and draft better than 90% of the coaches. It’s just terrible what they do and how much they get paid for it

@@shaggysci3129 maybe they hVe different approaches, asi said in other comments ls words are not autmatical facts. He doesn't talk about tempo they lose trough freezing. He calls rebuff spawning with no other camps botside jungle spawning. He acts as if getting scuttle is realistic if jenses freezes and etc..

he was literally coach for a week

It does but the problem is faker can choose when to use it. So starting with it makes it doomed from the start.

He basically meant exactly that. It's a zugzwang position. Any active play by solely Jensen is int at this point. Best thing to do there is try to slow down the game so they can get their items.

there is no objective in the map, what you do after that is help your leona get and clear out waves in the topside river or just your topside jungle camps, they're so behind that they cant afford to make a play.

Wasting time or not, C9 and Jensen are not in a position for them to make a play. Theyre too far behind and there is no objective to fight for. Try to get as much xp and gold as possible without getting exposed to any major threat is the only meaningful thing Azir could do in that game state.

if he freezes it properly he should just sit there and wait to try to deny more xp and force someone on t1 to shove it out

@@lakejizzio7777 I see now... Thank you for the information, it's very interesting to know this!

He completely cant freeze cause c9 are down xp so t1 minions are stronger and they'll push in. Best you can do there is last hit and try to not overextend for the next wave

@@sick3795 You’ve literally explained why he can freeze. Are you Bronze?

@@sick3795 So the wave is always pushing into him, meaning he can kill the minions whenever he wants so that they stay there, which maintains the freeze???

@@sick3795 So the wave is always pushing into him, meaning he can kill the minions whenever he wants so that they stay there, which maintains the freeze???

True, though at least at the time of the clip he is protected by vision from pretty much all angles, so it's pretty difficult for him to be caught out from anywhere, and Poppy is playing in that side of the map anyway, but you could argue that the baseline concept of shoving without much of a goal in mind might be *similar* to Azir here.

@@devilix123987 what Im trying to say is, azir can push if the team helps. Jax can push if the team helps. fudge (jax) was given help to push, and resources all game, and did nothing with it. While azir (Jensen) shouldnt die, he is playing without help, cause the help is going to fudge. Ls is trying to scapegoat Jensen, by pointing out mistakes, making it seem Jensen mistakes are bigger than fudges, the difference beeing One gets spunfeed, the other has to play on his own. Just to complete, jax vs lissandra and azir vs aatrox are differente levels of threat from One another

@@findabookpt6128 Mhm exactly, pushing isn't inherently bad if there is a legitimate goal in mind, Azir just happens to push and walk allllll the way up for 0 reason at all, and with nothing to protect him. You could say that the same can apply to Jax if he were to push out mindlessly, for no reason and with no protection, and gets caught out.

Pros typically freeze early game, like pre-10 minutes if they do freeze. I think the #1 reason they rarely freeze after is for vision control for the later stages of the game + set ups for objectives which they can't set up if they end up freezing the waves

It's mainly because the game pace is fast rn so getting the wave out of your face asap allows you to gain tempo for rotations to gain a numbers advantage. Doesn't mean that it's always correct to do so. Although I do agree with LS here, I also think that he is generally very biased towards slow and methodical macro rather than playing aggro and relying on execution to gain an advantage. The later has the very clear advantage that JDG so gloriously demonstrated today = They are just better at executing team fights because they always push limits in the LPL

NA used to freeze a lot but you lose so much pressure freezing and 8 times out of 10 your other teammates just get clapped on the other side of the map. lets say jensen freezes so oner and keria goes bot. then blaber and fudge tries to kill faker and they turn on them and kill them. then people are going to be flaming jensen for freezing

@@MrWizardjr9 ??? ok so what;s the point of pushing there? just to die? if he froze zeus would come to break it and then they can make play. But either way when u r down that much 90% of ur decision will just results into a lost anw

@@WoolTecMc Nah it's because u dont immediately see the outcome of freezing. U dont see the change in gold/exp cuz the info isnt available until u have frozen for a few waves. And Freezing is boring.

Nerdge achktually there is, the opportunity to pick her is so you can have access to that T1 turret in bot so you can have free gold meanwhile your tris is getting more xp and gold and mid same with azir but jensen died because he overpushed for 0 but w.e.

That’s what rekkles is trying to say. Azir should be watched over by his sup and jg and let to scale. Max is too far behind to do anything. Hence why he was angry poppy was trying to make plays with max instead of azir. Azir and max should’ve switched positions. LS is trying to defend fudge off you ask me because their lane assignments are fundamentally wrong considering who you expect to carry

Has nothing to do with liking rekkles. There are people who disagree with ls like me cause there are a lot of flawed arguemtnd like ignoring tempo, or calling rebuff in 30 seconds with no other camp bit side jungle spawning and etc. Just cause ls rants and calls everyone stupid does not make him objectively right. I might be also wrong which I ain't in my opinion but this is my objectivey opinion.it sucks how everyone sees ls like some God whose words are facts and not biased opinions.

If azir is a win condition, he should freeze or at least slow push, if he can’t freeze the wave there. He has no god damn reason to push it out. It doesn’t relief any pressure on the map, he gets put in a less safe position and this on top makes him extremely gankable. If Jensen tried to keep the wave in that spot he would be an azir with a tower behind him and azir has a huge dash and an ult. And it’s not just that azir him self stays safer on the map if he just freezes there, he is closer to his other mates as well, if he gets ganked meaning freezing is pretty much the best thing he can do there in every way. Edit: slow push instead of hard push ofc. Let me put it this way, imagine you are a full enchanter comp with one master yi, you would want the yi to position in a way where you can shield him or to play around him, but instead the yi him self just runs it down and isn’t creating a state to ensure he gets to lategame, nor is the state a way to get the fastest protection from your team.

@@tomwanders6022 because jensen thought that he is safe because zven is there with him.

i watch LS streams and i like it but the only thing that i dont like about LS is he will shit talk on pro players if they didn't play on the type of game that he think is the best.

@@tomwanders6022 and btw you just revised what LS actually said in this video and didn't point out the other possible things like the communication with zven and jensen here because zven fvcked up in keeping jensen safe and not checking if someone is in the bush

Still no point in hard pushing top when your JG is bot side.

So poppy should just stay in bush and watch how azir farm?

@@heiisinki6817 Yes, covering your Azir win condition is better than wasting sums ganking a freaking lissandra

@@creationprime9614 poppy going bot to take camps not to gank lisa, idea to cover azir is so stupid, cuz you are a vision ward not a champ.

@@heiisinki6817 so he farmed 1 camp and then jerked around for 15 sec near river entrance. Great use of time to farm on a tank jungler.

And u belongs from NA🤡🤣

100%, he’s definitely a perfect example of ad carry brain

@@RahulDevanarayanan what rekkles said isnt even wrong. they either play to help azir, or azir shouldnt push

@@ihasneck yeah peole are missing the point the game is fucked but azir is your only hope and relevant member you always cover your strong guy

Azir shouldn't be on the weaker side of the map Poppy should focus on ganking for botlane more The 2 main points, which of those 2 do you believe is wrong because C9 consciously chose to put azir on the weaker side and they chose not to focus on ganking bot.

if they play it right they can get liss flash before dragon fight tbf

@@zerimas_ no they can't liss have ult and stopwatch

jgl camps no value xD

Wouldnt that make both of them correct?

oh the irony

How does giving analysis that is right discrediting? Pushing the wave was bad, following the wave with no vision / team mates also bad. Pretty clean cut. Why are you so set on dying on LS hate?

You can catch Aatrox at other points in the game - at least by holding the wave, you get access to gold that the opponent arguably might not be able to get (without the risk of being collapsed on), without assigning other players to that side of the map, or by dropping vision. Either way you can try to force the opposing team to use resources to protect a player in order for them to be able to take the same waves as you.

There is no baron or drake, so they can and should stall for as long as they can until baron. LS advocates for freezing when there is no objective coming up, and this is one of those moments.

​@@geroni211 We are at minute 18:25 when Azir pushes the wave at his T2 tower. This is 1,5 minutes before Baron spawns! You usually want to clear vision around 1-1,5 min before the objective spawns and also start to place your own vision. And as we are exactly 1,5 minutes before baron when Azir shoves the wave, this is in the exact perfect time window. In addition, as Leona has cleared vision in their own jungle, they most likely assumed it to be safe enough for Azir to shove another wave. That the Aatrox goes over the wall is actually troll by him. Aatrox would most likely lose the 2vs1 against Azir and Leona, so if he is seen, he dies there. Not to forget that at the moment of him going over the wall, he had no idea about where Tristana was. So if we assume that C9 would cover Azir shoving the wave with Leona/Tristana, Aatrox just dies there 100%. But regardless of what exactly would have been the right decision, the problem if C9 being forced to get the baron remains the same. Viego also still had Herald which is another problem C9 has, especially when they don't shove the wave enough. So while it most likely is right that Azir should not shove this wave in most games, in this game specifically it really doesn't matter since it's not about stalling anymore, it's about the ability and set up to steal the baron and maybe get a good fight through Poppy ult. Also I don't think anyone would expect such an aggressive play from Aatrox when he didn't had enough information by the time he decided to go for this play.

@@Alatreon22 As you said, if you usually try to clear vision around objectives at around this time then you HAVE to kno, thag T1 are going to be somewhere top side. Even if all of C9 was top and they had vision, they can not even try to contest the baron as they will get smashed. So what Jensen do ? Push and die, further compromising the fact that he is one of C9 win condition by setting himself and his team further behind. Or either slow push/ freeze the wave depending on the amount of minion to at LEAST secure gold and exp. Moreover, of a leona was enough for him to feel safe enough to overextend like that in that game state then we have another problem. Maybe there is a world where they kill aatrox, even though it's highly unlikely, but even if they kill aatrox top assuming no one on T1 was top it means nothing objective wise and they wasted all of their cooldowns on an aatrox that will be back on the map before baron spawns. So if the argument here is that : pushing top and maybe kill aatrox will help C9 win by maybe contesting baron, it's false. We could go on and on on what should be done, but Jensen inted that and Fudge + blaber ran it botlane which is why NA is trash as a region, they cant play as a team but they don't have the individual skill necessary to just skill check in every role like other highly mechanical team did in the past. Meaning they are stuck until they improve or figure things out which they are not showing any signs of doing.

​@@AbyssTCG Well no. They went for a reset which C9 also assumed, otherwise Zven would never go that deep into the river to try clear the vision ward. Which also means that if Zven spots Zeus, they fight him at around min 18:30 and get him killed before Viego/Alistar would have been there. Also I don't understand why this Leona should not be enough of cover against this Aatrox. Aatrox dropped to 30% HP while Jensen took like 60% Damage before doing anything to him, now imagine a Leona interrupting Aatrox 1 or 2 times so Jensen takes less dmg and has more time to do dmg, this guy will definitely die there imo And what my whole point is, it doesn't matter if they "waste" something on Aatrox. You either get this baron somehow by having enough vision to run up there, poppy ult them out and steal the baron, or they simply will lose the game. At 20:30 when T1 starts the baron you see this exact problem. C9 has no vision, they don't know for how long T1 is already at Baron, they try to get some space, are too late and what happens? They lose baron, get engaged, lose the game. Now imagine C9 having at least enough vision to know when T1 starts baron. This whole scene can switch to C9 getting a baron and/or maybe even some kills but if you don't know if they do baron or for how long, you will lose the game. Even before Jensen was killed at Top, C9 was 7k Gold behind. The only possible way of having even a tiny chance of winning this game was to get the baron. And I'm not here to say that C9 doesn't have any problems and so on. I only think that both Rekkles and LS are partially right and wrong on their opinions. I mean LS values the CS/Camps C9 can take, while Rekkles clearly focuses on the map/objectives and win condition. So I am wondering, if LS thinks there is no need or reason to prepare vision, he doesn't want C9 to even try getting baron, right? Then I would be interested to know how he thinks C9 will turn the table after T1 got baron. I totally understand the point of LS about shoving the wave in general, but in this specific game I dont know why he brings it up. Cool, Blaber will obtain like 300 gold, Jensen maybe 300 gold as well and then they lose to T1 with baron buff. But at least they maximized their gold per minute🤡

The issue with your point is that's for Solo q... not competitive Pro gameplay. Your point is literally irrelevant.

he can take the whole wave, but not instantly, just by last hitting. this way the next incoming enemy wave meets his own wave closer to his tower so he can farm that one saver as well.

@@o0nick Wrong. The entire top side would have been warded, jungle taken and Azir either dead along with his t2 or at the very least lost R/sums. There is no guaranteed win/right decision coming out of this position, but doing what LS proposes would have been the single worst decision C9 could make, judging by SKT's movements.

Youre cringe

Why would it make sense to send them to jensens lane as opposed to fudges here?