I couldn't watch the whole video because she can't seem to square the fact that she likes her mentor and also that her mentor should not be accepting payment for an apprenticeship. Hoping she changes her mmind eventually

So awful. I’m so sorry this happened to you. :(

Imho straddling the line like that just empowers and supports this exploitative practice. Especially when you have a large following. Your views have a bigger impact and reach. It’s important to stand together as workers and support others.

@@Lynn_Loheide especially when you have a large following AND especially when you're an apprentice! it kinda gives off 'oh guys it's not that bad, im an actual apprentice and i'm fine' which makes it seem like those who are upset about unpaid apprenticeships are only people outside of the industry who are disconnected from it since someone who is experiencing it is fine with it.

Making KZfaq videos is SO MUCH WORK. It’s a TON of work. It’s it’s own entire job. And honestly it’s a fortunate job. To have a platform and be able to set your own hours and upload when you can and not when you get busy? Most other people trying to apprentice would not have the luxury of a job like that. They often work stocking shelves or at Starbucks or in factories. Difficult physical labor. And to just casually be like yeah this is fine. It’s just really disheartening to me. It’s not fine. Apprentices deserve better. Both she and I deserved better.

All unpaid internships/apprenticeships need to be banned to stop the privileged staying privileged without people getting a chance on merit

@@Lynn_Loheide i agree! she's being taken advantage of and doesn't seem to realize it. she doesn't seem to see that she absolutely *has* to work a second job to be able to apprentice, maybe because youtube's just always been a thing for her and isn't like a traditional job. at the same time, that blinds her to the struggles of others who have to work more labor-intensive and less-paying jobs.

@@onedirectioninfection5756 She acknowledges that you have to be in a position of privilege to take on a full time job where you aren't being paid for a year, she clearly understands that she wouldn't be able to be doing all that work as an apprentice if she didn't have youtube as her second job. I recommend watching the full video as she goes over how she feels about doing all the work as an apprentice that you would do at a normal paying job.

@@luvgoat147 what i mean to ask is if she realizes she *also* has to work two jobs to maintain the apprenticeship. she's privileged because she has such a profitable and flexible second job ontop of apprenticing

You’re definitely not short on options- exploitation? Colonialism? Capitalism? If you point that out, though, then some chucklefck will you’re making it about race 🥴

As someone who was once in this situation it is very difficult to accept. But on the flip side when you have a large following online and you are creating content that encourages an exploitative system that's rooted in abusive and problematic practices, you have a responsibility to your influence. For me- I ended up leaving my apprenticeship and pursuing a better path in the industry. I spoke out publicly that I was wrong to encourage these practices. I made public apologies and have put a lot of my own time, labor, and money into correcting the harm I caused by encouraging these systems when I was an apprentice myself. Know better, do better.

Ahh thank you I was unsure of the pronunciation! Yeah it’s wild to me we are debating paying people for their labor. I am glad she at least touched on issues with legality, abuse, and diversity in her video but to end it with “I’m still not sure” is just -so- privileged and the impact this can have on her followers who will then also assume it’s ok to work unpaid because she is and she’s happy with it. In LA of all places. It’s a very tone deaf take on what the economy looks like for most people right now and how many people struggle to ever make it in this industry. As a survivor, its also disheartening. Myself and many other survivors have said time and time again that paying apprentices is one of the best ways we can stop abuse in the industry. It’s exhausting how often folks don’t listen to us.

Probably because a lot of them are being paid cash under the table or doing some sort of room&board situation and don't want you being nosey in their business? Glad you have a copy-pasted little paragraph handy to save tattooing industry.

@@felix-ve8jk looks like someone didn't watch the video! a mentor living with their apprentice is a breeding ground for abuse of all kinds and should not happen under any circumstance. the replies to my comments were not from the original poster anyways, just crappy people defending free and abusive labor like you seem to be doing for some reason. awareness is never a bad thing and future apprentices are definitely reading the comments of those videos, therefore it's worth commenting so people looking to get into the industry know about potential exploitation they may face. go kick rocks

Looks like my comment was deleted. I did watch the video. I didn't need to though, because I work in the industry and understand how a true apprenticeship works. "Mentor living with their apprentice is a breeding ground for abuse" You people consider everything a breeding ground for abuse. Keep copying and pasting your canned response when you clearly have no experience with tattooing or the industry at all. Maybe more of these TikTok artists can skip their apprenticeships altogether, buy an $80 Amazon kit and get started doing tattoos. What's stopping them? This is how so many people are being encouraged to join the industry anyways. The mainstreaming of tattoos and the intersection with delusional pop-star/celebrity worship is embarrassing. Keep seething though.

@@felix-ve8jk your reply is still there, i see it fine. tell me how a boss living with an employee is an appropriate living situation? would you say the same about a teacher and student? the mentor and apprentice spend all day working together then come back home and continue to spend the rest of the day together. especially if the apprentice isn't paid, it becomes easy for the mentor to financially and literally trap the apprentice and abuse them emotionally, physically, sexually. you said you watched the video so i won't go on, but clearly you're in denial about the rampant abuse in the industry you work in. it's fantastic to see another person in the industry that is not only complacent with the abuse that occurs within it, but even actively believes against preventing it. honestly, i see the appeal to scratch until you get good when the other option is most likely going to end up with you being controlled and manipulated by the person who is supposed to be giving you a proper education and gaslit by fellow people in the industry like you. i won't be responding any further to you.

That's fine. You can believe whatever you want to. Everything is so extreme, depressing and abusive with you people. I'd rather you not respond to me either because you are childish, petty and ignorant.

Oh this could be its own video- and my tiktok videos touched on this heavily. A bunch of yt men co-opted indigenous imagery and practices to begin this industry and then have actively kept BIPOC and queer folks out of it who were original practitioners of this craft. Unpaid apprenticeships are for sure a tool of yt supremacy in the industry.

Tattooing has always been diverse

"yt supremacy"

@@felix-ve8jk we still have a ton of artists who refuse to even learn to tattoo dark skin. 😭 this industry does very much have a diversity issue.

@felix-ve8jk I'm not saying tattoos were never diverse (obviously different cultures & races get them, etc). What I'm trying to point out is that the industry itself lacks acceptance when it comes to a diverse employment. At least here in America. For instance, how likely is it you'd find a black or brown owned studio (that employs mostly black & brown artists)? I'm not saying that those businesses don't exist, but they're rare compared to the thousands you'd find that are owned by white tattoo artists. So yeah, that there is a symptom of "yt supremacy".

And how much do med students pay for their education? We're talking literal $100s of thousands now. The amount of work they do in school is unfathomable to most people. Your whole life is education for at least 4 years. "we all had to go through it, so now you have to" is a nice strawman. Who has ever said that? The next generation of tattooers is DIY stick and poke or $80 Amazon kit scratchers. Have fun getting scarred for life.

@@felix-ve8jk Matt Vaughn literally said that, almost, if not completely word for word, when making excuses why he doesn’t pay his apprentices in the past week or two (it was either on Instagram, TikTok, or both). If you can’t find the video on his accounts, the tattoo apprentice (celle_tattoo) this video is addressing has it included in her video. I didn’t pull it out of thin air, I’ve heard multiple tattoo artists say that. And yes, med students, and I for that matter, paid a lot more for our training/schooling, but the same goes for trade schools or OTHER APPRENTICESHIPS! I have a cousin in an electrician apprenticeship, and he gets paid for his work! I believe he even gets a living wage that’s a good deal above minimum wage. As far as I know, he also didn’t have to pay for the apprenticeship, so what’s the excuse for not paying tattoo apprentices? My cousin did not go to trade school or college, so that’s not an excuse either. I’m not saying to pay tattoo apprentices $60,000+/year like med students get, I’m saying they should be paid AT LEAST minimum wage. Also, tattoo artists and piercers are altering human bodies, which can affect health and require a lot of practice and knowledge. So, while they don’t have the same schooling, their training is a lot like a medical residency. Not exactly the same or as hard as a residency, but still hard and it requires a lot of focus (as Lynn described in this video). Teaching residents are also paid, and they aren’t required to be the janitors for the school. Medical residents aren’t forced to do janitorial duties or keep track of the stock of supplies like bandages, needles, and hospital gowns. In college, I was not forced to clean the floors/windows or make sure all the teachers in the building had all of the supplies they needed, and the same goes for students in trade schools. Why are tattoo apprentices the only apprentices/students that aren’t paid but are still forced to clean the shop and keep track of the stock of supplies of all of the artists (not just the artist they are apprenticing under) in the shop? (These examples of apprentice “expectations” are also from that same video response from Matt Vaughn.) Please, give me an actual good reason why they don’t deserve to be paid for AT LEAST the labor that IS NOT related to learning how to tattoo/pierce.

Matt’s other apprentice sharing how much social media work he did and not apprenticing really put that into perspective. Abuse comes in many forms. Expecting young people to work unpaid and mostly just do the labor of a social media manager is absolutely abuse and exploitation.

@@Lynn_Loheide My heart hurts for her, he really wasted her time. There are people with degress in what that woman did for him, not that it would be okay if there weren't.

Neither one of his apprentices belong anywhere near a tattoo shop to begin with. They don't care about tattooing. They care about promoting their social media pages.

@@felix-ve8jk He doesn't care about his apprentices, promoting social media is all he was leting them do and only one was savy enough to leave.

@@silentlyjudgingyou That's true. He's a social media tattooer. Nobody knows who he is in LA unless they are extremely online. You have people with little to no interest in tattooing getting apprenticeships with tattooers who are only popular because of Instagram and Tik Tok. What a recipe for disaster. This isn't another example of "traditional apprenticeships gone wrong" when the guy who was just using social clout to get a couple opportunists to do his online legwork. Literally RESEARCH MORE.

👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

@@felix-ve8jk You gonna comment the same things attacking people under every single comment that disagrees with you? Damn good luck you sound rather miserable.

Yes apprentices get paid to learn in most industries, but some industries still basically pay people to retire with pensions as well. A system that makes it possible for a younger person, in fact incentivises, taking the time to really learn the trade, not just how to do a job, and then makes it possible for the older folks to retire comfortably knowing they have passed their knowledge on and the industry is in good hands, is really great for that industry. The thing is that relies on people caring about the longevity and integrity of the industry, and not just focusing on extracting as much value out of it as possible, and that’s kinda how more and more things work. It doesn’t have to be that way though.

Absolutely not lmfao. Look at how well that's working out for Hollywood writers

I agree, it's obvious from her demeanor she can't truly speak out, for fear of the repercussions, but it definitely seems she is learning a certain injustice here.

that's what i thought also! if she says anything negative about the model then her whole apprenticeship may just go down the drain. too bad she had end it with 'i'm not sure!' instead of only presenting facts and therefore muddying the water since it's clear she has a large following and a lot of people will take what she says very seriously.

Which is absolutely sucky considering she PAID for that apprenticeship and can’t even speak on it.

@@raedaze it's so horrible. any other employee is allowed to complain about their job (within reason i guess), but her apprenticeship can literally get taken out from under her even though she paid for it. so messed up

Oh I have no doubt that's the situation. However, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality." She has a huge platform and is justifying exploitative practices that very directly lead to abuse and violence in this industry. She is responsible for the fact she is enabling these harmful practices. If it is unsafe for her to currently speak up, then don't speak up at all. Or, perhaps consider seeking out a studio with ethical practices to learn at instead. Trying to justify or excuse this practice only hurts survivors and victims.

if there was a more regulated schooling system that only taught techniques and gave relevant exercises but didn’t expect you to do all the grunt work of running the business on the side, then sure, that could be an unpaid experience. but as the system is really unregulated and usually just devolves into using apprentices as unpaid interns who do all the menial tasks of keeping the business running, those jobs need to be compensated, otherwise you’re exploiting workers and using the culture of “well it’s always been like this” as justification

You know I made an apology video on here a while ago because when I was in the middle of my unpaid apprenticeship I was so proud of it. I treated it like this badge of honor. “I work 7 days a week 12 hours a day to become a piercer because I really want it. I’m dedicated. You have to really want it” when you are in that situation you don’t want to believe you are being exploited. You want to believe you are being treated well and this is ok and the people you trust and call your mentors are doing the right things. There’s also a major sunk cost fallacy if you’ve paid for your apprenticeship. But on the other side of it, years later? I was being exploited. I was being abused. And when I spoke out positively and in support of this system I was enabling it. I was encouraging it. I was making it easier for other young people to end up in the same situation I was in. I hope Celle can realize that her labor is valuable, that she deserves to be paid. And that supporting this system is supporting exploitation, abuse, and gatekeeping in this industry. If nothing else her fans and followers deserve better.

Tattooing should be gatekept.

@@felix-ve8jk not from the groups and people or originates from. Not in a way that exploits labor. Not in ways that enable grooming and abuse.

Tattooing always had a way of outing abusers and manipulators. Groomers? Lol. Tattooing has never been "gatekept" from "groups and people" it originated from. What an outrageous lie. The mainstreaming of tattooing has produced more bad actors and general filth than ever existed in the industry in the 20th century.

People have sued successfully!

the problem with that is that you need to learn how to do the other studio work as well, completing it quickly and well, which can take practice

I think studios should pay the mentor for teaching, just like they should pay the apprentice for their labor. Willing to educate and train a new staff member who will make the business a ton of money? Get a higher % on your tattoos when you are training someone on them.

@@Lynn_Loheide thank you for responding! I think that definitely makes sense at least for some instances.

Maya hella 90s with some Redfern adornments sleeves. I love my dangly lobes :)

Lol what do you think apprenticeships are like in Japan?

I think she has already worked one or something similar

@@raedaze that's so odd cause i looked at celle's instagram and they only just did their second tattoo on a person like a month ago.... yikes if she's done one before

@@onedirectioninfection5756 she worked there before she became an apprentice. So she was there working the front desk the last time.

You are correct you don’t get paid to go to college. You do however get paid to be a carpenters apprentice. A plumbing apprentice. A HVAC apprentice. A dog groomers apprentice. Etc. This is because there is a fundamental difference between apprentice programs and college. College students aren’t doing labor that replaces that of an employee while they are learning.

Don't even try to rationalize with this crowd. They're too far gone.

Trade schools exist purely to teach the students the trade, and all the students are required to do is learn, they’re not given unpaid administrative or janitorial work that is just the school getting free labor from them while they get no educational benefit in return. They’re not doing the work their teachers would have to do themselves if there weren’t students to do it for them like tattoo apprentices are so it’s not the same thing.

The administrative and janitorial work is part of the trade of tattooing! Like it or not. Well as I do agree that they’re tattooers and situations out there that treat apprentices horribly. Hazing is definitely normal! Boundaries should be respected!! But to say some people were so trapped and wasn’t able to get out there horrible situations. That some felt so stuck, abuse physically, mentally, sexually that they couldn’t get out! Or reach out!! What is this?? Tattoo trafficking?? If that’s the case! Let’s bring it to light!! so I challenge anyone!!! And let’s put that person or persons or shops on blast now!! No matter how far back or recent it happened or is happening!!! The industry is so quick to blast and share a dead beat client’s personal information and with other shops!! Let’s do same and hold those people accountable!!!! I’ll wait!

I worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 3-4 years. I had maybe 3 days off a year. I was expected to open and close the studio, handle all supply orders, inventory all orders, and stock the studio. I was expected to post twice daily on social media, answer all messages, redo all of the studio's aftercare, build the studio a new website, create and manage an online store, and all of this was given priority over actually learning to pierce. I was 19 when I met my mentor, and he was 30. I was 21 when I moved across the country to work for him. I was required to unfriend and block other piercers and studios on social media, then required to give him access to my social media so he could see who I was talking to. Make a mistake at the shop? Get screamed at. Didn't get everything done in a shift? Things were thrown at you. I have one of my mentors initials tattooed on me because as their apprentice I was their "property" But you live and work for this person- and you don't get paid. I rarely had 20$ to my name. How was I supposed to leave? I couldn't even afford a bus ticket to get out of the immediate area. I was 100% dependent on my mentor for food and shelter. And of course, the mentors threaten that if you leave they'll make sure you never work in this industry again. This isn't unique. I've spoken with hundreds of apprentices with the same experiences. Abuse, particularly grooming and sexual abuse is very common in apprenticeships. Paying apprentices for their labor is one of the best ways we can combat this abuse, and prevent apprentices from becoming trapped in situations like these.

Sounds like a shitty situation for sure! But it would’ve been a shitty situation even if you were paid regardless! With all the red flags and Everything you’re describing to us, it still seems it was done through your own free will!! Nothing was force on you! Did you have a gun to your head? And Your telling me At any point in time you couldn’t have left this situation And walk away?? Did he lock you up against your free will like a sweat shop?? And after being yelled at you couldn’t just walk out the door, was it locked?? My real question is Why did you give this person so much power over you That you felt so powerless you had to stay!?!?! Why wouldn’t you set boundaries?!?! Or listen to your inner voice and leave!?!? Look! I’m sorry you went through that and didn’t feel like no one had your back, it sounded horrible 100%!! I’ll never budge on apprentices being paid, tips yes! Hourly no! I think we should focus more on how we can create a safe spaces for these type of situations! See something say something!! Social media!! Putting people and shops on blast!! And learn how to just leave and walk away!! There’s plenty of hot lines people can call for help and receive resources to get people out of bad situations and relocate!

Then your mind would be blown in other sectors that use apprenticeships.

Is it fair to say you dislike her and not just her opinion? I really disliked her opinion and doubts about Gabbie Hanna, I disliked the opinions about wether people should be opinionated in the studio to their artist or not, but I don’t dislike Celle. We learn and grow, and some do so with a bit of time and venting of ruder or misinformed sentiments.