It makes perfect sense. BP is a mechanical mixture. The finer the particles in that mixture the faster and more complete the chemical reaction. More complete equals cleaner. Faster equals, well, faster. Now I’d like to see 72 hour buckthorn or Cottonelle. You’ll start getting relativistic effects as the ball approaches the speed of light. Time to reach escape velocity and low earth orbit.

Well now that begs the question what would happen if you milled your alder buck thorn & other prior top rated recipes for 72 hours. You know you gotta try it!

You sir, are a pioneer to the modern era of blackpowder firearms.

Now you need to mill the cottonelle for 72 hours.

My vote is "yes" on paper, and I agree that reserving that step for "decent" powders is appropriate. VERY interesting results!!!

Today's episode is why I love this channel. Thank you VERY MUCH Jake. 👍

Jake. You definitely proved the people wrong saying your wasting your time by milling that long .

Now do your cottonelle best performer with a 72 hour mill. I think you'd be close to 1850.

Jake, your channel is making some large strides in this black powder hobby. "This close" to 100,000, congrats, well deserved. Keep doing these types of experiments, have a great day! Mike.

Now you're going to have to do the same thing with the toilet paper powder and see if there's an improvement. The cottonnail toilet paper is great as is, but if it could be improved by longer milling, that would be very impressive. Great video, as always.

"Wine that has been aged for 24 hours is good enough!" Those were some remarkable results. I was saying "wow!" to myself too. And congrats on hitting 100k subs!

Cant remember if i mentioned this before. Your channel has gotten me to break out my smokepoles again! I recently repaired an 1850's DB ten gauge shotgun and have been having alot of fun shooting it!

Milling it longer, Mechanochemistry Still an infant science. This video is part of its history. Great job.

I'm actually surprised that so many from the pyrotechnic community in those comments skipped over an extremely important piece of context for milling times. In pyro application 4-12 hour milling times are acceptable and even preferred because you can easily reach a threshold where the powder is too fast and will begin to damage components (usually reinforced paper) or create less dramatic effects. " Antique muzzleloading propellant" is created to achieve different goals than pyrotechnic propellant. I have personally tried making pyrotechnics with muzzleloader grade BP and can attest that it burns way too fast for that application. Different tools for different jobs everyone.

again we run into the "everyone knows" vs "we've tested it at various mill times and this is what works" . I learned a long time ago to be wary of things "everyone knows". They may even be right for pyrotechnics. The shorter mill time might be perfect for them. But I've been watching your channel for a long time now and I've watched you change your mill times. I knew before I watched what the result was likely to be. Thanks again guys. Now pyrotechnics guys can get with the program..

"Not an incredible distance, but I could still miss." Such confidence.

I will not make my own videos. I like yours.

Totally underrated channel. Been watching you since you had like 30k subs. I find it interesting with such little subs you have many big channels that are subbed and watching you guys. That says something

I'd like to see the results of longer milling on one of your other recipes to see if there are gains with other charcoals.

Dude that lock time still blows me away. Addendum: the long mill time…hmmm, you may have discovered the secret of the Swiss

This , and indeed much of the channel, is an excellent example of good enough vs best. You have put far more effort into your powder research than it is worth, and I hope you continue.

i think everyone who watches your videos can attest that your a pioneer in the black powder development field youve managed to continue where the old timers left off back in the 1890s

Probably been said already, but 4-6 hours is just fine for fireworks. Its a much lower standard than what you need for this. Having said that, I thought 12-18 hours was enough. Now I'm probably going to throw all of the powder I have back in the ball mill for another couple of days.

You and your brother getting excited about a result and saying "Bitching" doesn't get tiring! Gotta love data that doesn't lie. As others have mentioned it would be interesting to see round two of some of the previous powders which didn't perform as good. Also concur with the idea of paper targets for the better performing powders, you need something to step up the game to after-all.

Awesome video, it is crazy at the increase you got. If you don't go through lbs of powder a week then I can see that extra milling time being 100% worth it. It might be interesting to see a batch milled for a whole week to see if there gets to be a point of significantly diminishing gains.

Bamboo grows extremely fast, too. Could be a nice renewable source of charcoal for antique muzzleload propellant.

This channel is the hidden gem of guntube. Keep up the amazing work.

always impressed with how clean, as in no dust, your powder is.

I agree with the previous post. It would be nice to see cottonelle after 72 hours of mill time.

This opens wide the avenue to re-testing the results of every charcoal you have tested thus far. As a working man, I realize the limitations on your time will slow results but it has also given hope to the rest of us as well. This one discovery has brought about a revolution in the understanding of those concerned that has a huge effect, unnoticed in a thousand years. As has always been mentioned, "Patience is it's own reward."

As DCUPP stated, the use of bp for pyrotechnics is totally different than the use of bp in antique firearms. Pyrotechnicians need a basic grade of bp to create colorful displays in the night sky. Us antique firearm enthusiasts need an excellent grade of bp for our recreation. Immensely enjoyed this video. Thank you!

Science! My first few batches of antique muzzleloading propellant were milled for just 4 hours too and didn't perform well (though I was thrilled at the time that it worked at all). One day I decided to mill it longer just to see what happened. I let it go for 12 hours with lead balls. Like you, I found my powder performed better. Next batch I'll have to double it and see what happens.

It makes sense, so long as longer grinds equal smaller particles, which incorporate more completely. I have to wonder if a longer period in the mixing stage would produce similar boosts in performance. Great video, always something new to absorb.

Well it didn't suck again. It actually brings 2 things to mind. 1) It seems that the pyro guys have a much lower standard of quality that they are willing to settle for and still be able to get their job done. 2) I guess we all need to see what happens when Cottenell is milled for 72 hours. Good job Jake on exploring all the possibilities.

I would also like to see the performance of 72 hour milling on the top performing powders! Congratulations on your success, well deserved!

the lead hits over curse words are a nice touch

Always Learning, Thank-You

There is a WORLD of difference between muzzle loading powder and the course, mild lift charge powder used in a fireworks shell.

You are a man of science! Now we need a 72h rerun of some other powders. The paper target for the good powders is very appreciated.

Great video guys here's what comes to mind on this one shoot the original 24 hour powder then the 72 hour powder every other shot that will definitely validate the question in milling time.

That is awesome man. People around me planted bambo and now it has taken over and they want it cut down. Lifetime supply of that stuff

Don't make my own power yet, but I will, in the future. What you are doing is why the scientific method works. Great video!

I had another thought; in regards to some people having Bamboo powder be dirty and some not, and this might apply to a lot of carbon sources; If the outside layer (bark) is included or not. Tree Bark includes a lot of silicates, and the cambium layer just under it has chlorophyll, and on bamboo, the outer skin has a lot of silica, much like grass(hay) so if someone made charcoal out of *small* bamboo tubes, they would end up with more outer surface than if they used pieces of larger bamboo. I would guess using just the inner part of bamboo would get better results, and staying away from the sapwood and bark on regular wood ought to produce nicer results as well.

It would be cool to see the results of the other carbon sources with longer mill times. My hypothesis is you may get similar results with things like grass/ straw and cotton balls. It would be interesting to see what Cottonelle Toilet paper does with longer mill times as well. I'm thinking the grain and fiber structure of any of the carbon sources has an influence on velocity.

I have a suggestion. You mentioned that bamboo charcoal is very dense, which makes me wonder if you could mill a bunch of bamboo charcoal separately, then mill BP made from it for a shorter time and get the same results. When I first started I bought willow branches that someone cooked, put some in a bag and broke it up with a hammer and milled it by itself. Then I screened it to remove big chunks and milled the dust with KNO3 & sulfur to incorporate it. I realize this suggestion won't save time when making small test batches to test different charcoals but if you settle on bamboo as your go-to fuel it might if it turns out charcoal particle size matters more than incorporation time.

glad to see you shoot for accuracy, speed means little without good groups,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

king of kings , thx for putting in the work for all of us 🙂

Thanks Dudes ! We all are truly grateful for y'alls time and effort 👍 TO 100K SUBS AND BEYOND !

I really enjoy the way you guys work and converse together. Good teamwork.

I am one of them "pryo"guys and I ALWAYS mill my powder a minimum of 24 hours. Sometimes I'll let it go an extra 12 hours if I'm busy doing other stuff. Everyone who's used my powder has complimented me on it's ignition and burn speed. On one occasion someone tried to convince me I accidently swapped it with flash due to how fast it went up. I tend to make about a 1/2 lbs worth at a time and don't keep more than a pound of home made stuff on hand. I use my powder mostly for cap and ball revolvers or on a rare occasion when someone has needed something for their pan. 4 hours!?! The few people i have met who attempt to correct me on how I make power made similar statements that I was doing it wrong or too long. Two of them were in the elderly category and when pressed it was quickly discovered they actually knew very little about pyro let alone BP. Another person was younger but a bit dim witted - ran into them at a safety course. In the past I mostly made BP rockets although safety issues with launching them has slowed that hobby down. Maybe some day I can find some good land to launch rockets from that wont catch anything on fire. Building and launching BP rockets is a great hobby albeit it's incredibly dangerous around houses or dry climates.

You Sir and your brother are seriously the reason I’m getting into BP. The SECOND I have the disposable money to do so. Mr Bellevue planted the seed but you guys cultivated it!!!!

I deeply appreciate that you are testing and documenting for all of us for free, and I dont blackpowder anything. Thanks for all the work and effort. What im getting from this is perhaps charcoal density should be an indicator of how long it needs to be milled.

The finer the components in the mix, the higher contact area between them equals to faster and more complete reaction between chemicals. That makes a BIG difference!

Seems like the obvious thing they are overlooking is the fact that the end use of ‘Antique Muzzle Loading Propellent’ vs Pyrotechnic Powder is vastly different, where you need clean burning, low fouling, powerful powder with extremely consistent results, theirs needs to go bang/poof/sparkle in the general direction of ‘up’ , out of a tube with far less tight tolerances.

Makes sense. The longer the mill time the better combined the ingredients. I'm sure there's a point of little gain as far as time but maybe that's for another video? Good job fellas.

Very impressive Jake......you are doing the antique fire arms community a great service........really great stuff.......

You should consider selling the powder. I don’t know the laws on it, but I think it would be a super cool way to support you guys

Mate I’m watching all your vids I’m new to black powder, I reload smokeless powder cartridges but I do have a 32-20 and struggle to get pistol powder here in Australia, wow this channel is by far the. Best most in-depth tutorial on utube on black powder ! Keep up the great work !

You guys are re-writing the book on personal “modern production” of Antique Muzzle Loading Propellant. Frigging Epic information

Really enjoy geeking out on your videos.

I love your experiments!

Good Job Jake! Pyros have very low performance requirements for BP and even de-tune their powder in many cases to make it burn slower. They have no clue about squeezing maximum energy per unit mass out of a powder batch, and burn cleanliness is not a concern for them at all. I think you are right about efficient incorporation being the key to performance. I believe that the Civil War era rifle and cannon powder makers were well aware of this factor. As you noted, grinding efficiency in a ball mill increases with media density. Also, grinding efficiency is influenced by fill ratios, and overfilling of the balls in the mill drum and overcharging of the product within the media charge both reduce efficiency. Industry experience seems to suggest ~50% charge of media by volume in a ball mill drum is optimum, and somewhat less than 50% of the interstitial volume of the media should be filled by the product. Greater grinding efficiency delivers shorter processing times. There will be some point of diminishing returns w/r/t processing time. This will need experimentation to determine. Try increments of 24 hours of milling, all other factors equal to find an appropriate end point for your specific equipment as a first approximation. So try another batch at 48, and another at 96 hours if you are so inclined.

Great video. Your channel rocks!

Outstanding video !! Cheers !

Great content as always!!

Fantastic, great experiment

That is so cool to see the difference the extra time makes. Now find some rattan and see if it is the same as bamboo since they are related.

Very cool topics. Awesome content!!!

I agree long term milling improves the quality of black powder. However, it's important to stir the powder to mix with the media periodically to make sure the powder is being milled and not just caked onto the milling chamber walls. The longer you mill, the faster the powder cakes, so you need to stir more often.

I love your videos, thank you very much for sharing!

Such an awesome video! Great job boys!!

Well done, Jake - great info; much appreciated!! I'd be very curious to see the results of long-milled balsa and Cottonelle powders. Good idea to put "worthy" powders on paper going forward. Thanks for everything you do to make this one of my favorite channels. Keep up the great work!!

Impressive , you answer so many question I have had over the years . Merci’

Some of the best content on youtube. Wait for these videos every Friday!

Great job in testing. Well done fellas!

I just love you guys thankyou for your effort !!

You guys know your stuff. I've learned a ton. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Very interesting. Never would've guessed that result.

Another great video!

Excellent work. Mighty fine results.

That ain't to die for . That is to live for .

Great job, it pays to be open minded and willing to experiment! keep up the good work 😃

Very interesting :) thank you

Hi, you guys are real close to figuring this out. Pretty bold of me right? I began making home brew in the 70’s. Your channel is the only one I’ve come across that follows the scientific method…weather you know it or not. I’m a scientist btw. Metallurgist to be exact. I teach at a college in Idaho. Anyhoo…a few years ago, when the internet was relatively new, Brush Hippy had a channel on KZfaq when it was new. He came close to what I figured out in the mid nineties. He never made the final connection to making the mythical moist burning powder . It’s not a myth by the way. You guys are closer than you know. Your on the right track! Don’t let the fireworks guys knock you off course. Those guys couldn’t make rifle grade powder to save their collective ass’. Increased mill time, as you know now, defiantly improves mediocre powder. I have reams of note books over a 30 year period detailing my research. I don’t want to ruin the journey for you and your brother, but I think you guys are worth sharing info with. Ian Von Maltitz wrote Black Powder Manufacturing & Optimizing. He did an incredible amount of charcoal experiments with different woods. American plum and Paulownia won the fastest BP awards. Crack willow is right in there too. It’s about the ash, you see. Any substance with a low ash content is a candidate for superior rifle grade powder. Another publication to look into is Perils in the Powder Mills; Gunpowder and it’s Men by Anne Kelly Lane. Specifically look at Chauncey J Olds. I think y’all will find him interesting. There are other things you’ve yet to discover, but this post is too long already and I gotta hit the sack. Love watching you discover. Takes me back to my journey with fond memories. Keep seeking!!

An interesting thing to have added to this particular video is calculating the energy based on velocity and your bullet weight. Then a calculation of the change in energy for knowing how much better the chemical reactions with this powder milling time it is.

Love your information, thank you so much.

Try experimenting with the actual same batch of chemical mix. Mill the batch for 24 hours, remove 1/2 the batch and continue milling the other half for the extra 48 then finish the process as usual with 2 separate batches mill ed different durations. If it produces the results you have here then your proof is in the milling time. Great videos👍

You guys keep improving. Tell an American Yer doing it wrong. Tell us We can't do something. We'll prove you wrong. Mill Time Son! Christ Bless You Boyz!

Wonderful! What the pyrotechnicians forget is that shooting a lead ball through a 1/2" tube is a specialist application not comparable to lifting 3-12" shells from a mortar tube. For that, 4-6 hours suffices because you are making a cannon powder, but antique muzzleloading propellants need a bit more, as you've demonstrated. Next stop, i agree with @johndiblasi4803 , is cottonelle for 72 hours to see if you can get it past 1900 and perhaps touch 2000 fps under standard conditions. It would go viral! Alder/Buckthorn might give a greater performance increase though. as they are harder charcoals.

Thanks for sharing I just bought a SMR kit and hope to get it complete soon and your video makes perfect sense

Super good job! I learn something new on every video. Thank you for your passion and science!

Inspiring results to say the least.👍🏻

Great information !! Thank You for doing this !!

Wow!!!! Awesome video. Love the antique muzzleloading propellant experiments!!

Excellent information Jake thank you

Great video!!!

This was another outstanding video Jake. Thank you. You are really advancing the science of home BP manufacturing. i appreciate the target and group as well. ❤

WOW! ( I had to) The first bamboo video had me disappointed. So this is great news for me, as I have an endless supply of bamboo around here. I'll just RONCO that mill and make good powder! You guys ROCK!

Really enjoyed this video. Very nice and thank you. I learn a lot from you all.

Awesome keep up the good work